---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/13/06: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:36 AM - Engine Assistance Please (Alan Burrows) 2. 03:56 AM - Re: Engine Assistance Please (BEBERRY@aol.com) 3. 06:54 AM - Re: Engine Assistance Please (ivor.phillips) 4. 07:00 AM - Re: Engine Assistance Please (AlStills) 5. 09:33 AM - batteries (Paul Stewart) 6. 09:53 AM - Re: batteries (Gilles Thesee) 7. 09:53 AM - Re: batteries (Graham Singleton) 8. 10:02 AM - Re: batteries (Gilles Thesee) 9. 10:30 AM - Trailering (Jerry Rehn) 10. 10:42 AM - Re: batteries (Peter Rees) 11. 11:27 AM - Re: batteries (Paul Stewart) 12. 11:30 AM - Re: batteries (R.C.Harrison) 13. 11:32 AM - Re: Engine Assistance Please (Fred Klein) 14. 11:37 AM - Re: batteries (Raimo Toivio) 15. 11:56 AM - Re: batteries (Pete Lawless) 16. 12:01 PM - Rotax oil pressure sender (=?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?=) 17. 01:12 PM - Re: Fuel cap / Cobra reinforcement (Garry) 18. 02:26 PM - Re: Trailering (Tom Friedland) 19. 03:35 PM - Re: Trailering (Jerry Rehn) 20. 04:50 PM - Re: batteries (Kingsley Hurst) 21. 05:42 PM - Re: batteries (SPurpura@aol.com) 22. 05:43 PM - Re: Fuel cap / Cobra reinforcement () 23. 06:02 PM - Re: Trailering (Craig Ellison) 24. 11:54 PM - Re: Trailering (Steven Pitt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:18 AM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: Europa-List: Engine Assistance Please I have a friend who is looking to buy an XS Trigear fitted with a Jabaru engine, does anyone have any advise on the installation or hints on what to watch out for. Is it a good option or shall I "pursuade" him to stay with the more traditional Rotax. I dont want to start a debate on the merits or drawbacks of the various options, just help a friend with little or no Europa experience buy the right aircraft. Thanks Guys Alan ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:09 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Engine Assistance Please I have no experience of the Jabiru but try Pete Jeffers who knows quite a bit. Patrick ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:35 AM PST US From: "ivor.phillips" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Engine Assistance Please Alan The obvious man to ask is Bob Harrison as he was the first to use the Jabiru in the UK, In a Europa Tri- Gear regards Ivor I have a friend who is looking to buy an XS Trigear fitted with a Jabaru engine, does anyone have any advise on the installation or hints on what to watch out for Do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:03 AM PST US From: "AlStills" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Engine Assistance Please --> Europa-List message posted by: "AlStills" Alan, I'm currently running taxi test's on my trigear with the Jabiur 3300 engine and would be more than happy to share what I know. Contact me off line at astills@cox.net Al Stills N625AZ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:16 AM PST US From: Paul Stewart Subject: Europa-List: batteries --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart Can anyone give me some help with batteries? I've just priced up a 17AH 'Red Top' at 121 GBP. I can get hold of YUASA 17AH leads acid gel batteries for 37GBP. THe only obvious difference to me is that the Red Top product claims 625A cranking power at 20 degC and the YUASA 450A. Would this lower power be enough for cranking the 914 or am I missing another reason for spending an extra 100 quid? Regards Paul G-GIDY ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:51 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: batteries --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Paul Stewart a crit : > --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart > > Can anyone give me some help with batteries? I've just priced up a > 17AH 'Red Top' at 121 GBP. I can get hold of YUASA 17AH leads acid > gel batteries for 37GBP. THe only obvious difference to me is that > the Red Top product claims 625A cranking power at 20 degC and the > YUASA 450A. Would this lower power be enough for cranking the 914 or > am I missing another reason for spending an extra 100 quid? Paul, A small four years old Hawker 7 Ah SBS-8 has ample power to lawlessly crank our Rotax 914. I tested it from -14C to +37C. The advertised cranking power is circa 300-400 A. The Rotax starter doesn't exceed one hundred peak amps. So I believe there is no need to worry. If it were my airplane, I would go for a smaller and lighter battery. I believe that the Yuasa battery is rather of the Absorbed Glass Mat, or Recombinant Gas type, and not of the gel model. Gel batteries are best suited for traction (wheel chairs, fork lifts, etc...) If you're not afraid of reading French, you'll find some info on AGM batteries at http://contrails.free.fr/elec_bat_rg.php Hope this helps, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:57 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: batteries --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton Paul imho the Yuasa should be adequate, if you want the best it probably has to be an Oddysey Graham Paul Stewart wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart > > Can anyone give me some help with batteries? I've just priced up a > 17AH 'Red Top' at 121 GBP. I can get hold of YUASA 17AH leads acid > gel batteries for 37GBP. THe only obvious difference to me is that > the Red Top product claims 625A cranking power at 20 degC and the > YUASA 450A. Would this lower power be enough for cranking the 914 or > am I missing another reason for spending an extra 100 quid? > > Regards > > Paul > > G-GIDY ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:21 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: batteries --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > > > A small four years old Hawker 7 Ah SBS-8 has ample power to lawlessly > crank our Rotax 914. Should read "flawlessly"... Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:30:44 AM PST US From: "Jerry Rehn" Subject: Europa-List: Trailering --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jerry Rehn" For over 5 years I have been hangering and seldom using trailer. I may have used it 3 times in 6 years. Each time it is a real chore getting everything lined up and pins in etc. I am very close to airport and am considering trailering more often . I know there are those of you that have got it figured out. I need your help. I still have the brochures that show the Europa on the trailer (pg7) behind the Land Rover gasing up- what a concept! I could be that person! Except for the Rover! Thanks for help. Jerry 914 Mono w/trailer ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:39 AM PST US From: "Peter Rees" Subject: Re: Europa-List: batteries --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" Hi Paul We fitted an Odyssey PC680 which I got from http://www.tayna.co.uk/catalog/295/0/Enersys-ODYSSEY-Batteries-Enersys-ODYSSEY-Batteries-page1.html which was the cheapest outlet at the time at 80 - Seems to work a treat (and about 6lbs lighter than the battery we took out. Regards Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Stewart" Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 5:34 PM Subject: Europa-List: batteries > --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart > > Can anyone give me some help with batteries? I've just priced up a 17AH > 'Red Top' at 121 GBP. I can get hold of YUASA 17AH leads acid gel > batteries for 37GBP. THe only obvious difference to me is that the Red > Top product claims 625A cranking power at 20 degC and the YUASA 450A. > Would this lower power be enough for cranking the 914 or am I missing > another reason for spending an extra 100 quid? > > Regards > > Paul > > G-GIDY > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:08 AM PST US From: Paul Stewart Subject: Re: Europa-List: batteries --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart Thanks to all re batteries Paul ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:01 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: batteries --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Paul , I can't help you with technical comparisons but having the Jabiru 3300 (it has six cylinders so two are coming on compression together) and with two 13 AH red tops in parallel they have worked flawlessly for in excess of six years and even with very negative temps gave an immediate "light up" every time. I always had to fly for up to an hour to be fully charged though and after 3 starts within one hour it could need a second attempt. All this was after it was necessary to perform jump starts from a plant battery during the test flying. After which I moved the battery location from the back to the P1 Foot well with welding wire leads. Red Tops profess to be "starter" batteries so they give a remarkably instantaneous discharge as is required for the starter. Robt.C.Harrison G-PTAG in conversion to Rotax 914 ! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Stewart Sent: 13 October 2006 17:35 Subject: Europa-List: batteries --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart Can anyone give me some help with batteries? I've just priced up a 17AH 'Red Top' at 121 GBP. I can get hold of YUASA 17AH leads acid gel batteries for 37GBP. THe only obvious difference to me is that the Red Top product claims 625A cranking power at 20 degC and the YUASA 450A. Would this lower power be enough for cranking the 914 or am I missing another reason for spending an extra 100 quid? Regards Paul G-GIDY ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:50 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Engine Assistance Please From: Fred Klein John Lawton at "TELEDYNMCS@aol.com" would be an excellent resource. On Friday, October 13, 2006, at 03:34 AM, Alan Burrows wrote: > I have a friend who is looking to buy an XS Trigear fitted with a > Jabaru engine, does anyone have any advise on the installation or > hints on what to watch out for. Is it a good option or shall I > =93pursuade=94 him to stay with the more traditional Rotax. I dont want to > start a debate on the merits or drawbacks of the various options, just > help a friend with little or no Europa experience buy the right > aircraft. > > Thanks Guys > > - > > Alan > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:27 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: batteries --> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" I highly agree. I am very happy with my Odyssey. It is over one year old and only once charged. I have played almost every night with my panel... The voltage over pins stays always 12,68V (just like advertised). Notice never cranked /flied so far. Raimo oh-xrt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:56 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: batteries > --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton > > Paul > imho the Yuasa should be adequate, if you want the best it probably has > to be an Oddysey > Graham > > Paul Stewart wrote: > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart > > > > Can anyone give me some help with batteries? I've just priced up a > > 17AH 'Red Top' at 121 GBP. I can get hold of YUASA 17AH leads acid > > gel batteries for 37GBP. THe only obvious difference to me is that > > the Red Top product claims 625A cranking power at 20 degC and the > > YUASA 450A. Would this lower power be enough for cranking the 914 or > > am I missing another reason for spending an extra 100 quid? > > > > Regards > > > > Paul > > > > G-GIDY > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:10 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: batteries --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" Good I have never been known for cranking 914s! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee Sent: 13 October 2006 18:02 Subject: Re: Europa-List: batteries --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > > > A small four years old Hawker 7 Ah SBS-8 has ample power to lawlessly > crank our Rotax 914. Should read "flawlessly"... Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:57 PM PST US From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?= Subject: Europa-List: Rotax oil pressure sender I replaced the VDO oil pressure sender last week after 430 engine hours. The indicated pressure on the Flydat with the old unit was gradually going down from 4 bars to 2.8 bars and was still indicating 2.8 bars after the engine was shut down, even after a few days or weeks. The old unit had the brass ring, the new one does not. I purchased the new one from the French Rotax dealer for 63 Euros. With the new sender, the oil pressure now oscillates from 3.3 to 3.6 bars, probably due to vibration. This is not satisfactory. Although I am reluctant to add another hose to the two dozens already under the cowling, I am planning to move the sender to the firewall using flexible hose, as on every Lycoming installation. This should greatly reduce the risk of failure. Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 434 hours ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:24 PM PST US From: "Garry" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel cap / Cobra reinforcement --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry" Sorry, but what's a "Cobra"? Garry Stout ----- Original Message ----- From: > Just finished up my fuel cap / Cobra reinforcement tonight. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:23 PM PST US From: "Tom Friedland" <96victor@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Trailering Hi Jerry Tom Friedland with XS Mono/Jabiru/Airmaster now in Ellensburg. (Was in BLI) There is a guy in Canada that makes a one man wing dolly on wheels that you can wheel the wing from the trailer to the aircraft and pivot the wing to a horizontal position. And of course the other way around. I have the web site somewhere if you are interested. I think that they were around $750. Is there any chance of flying with you sometime? I flew in a mono once in 1998 and mine is almost ready to go so I would like to see what it is like. Tom On 10/13/06, Jerry Rehn wrote: > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jerry Rehn" > > For over 5 years I have been hangering and seldom using trailer. I may > have > used it 3 times in 6 years. Each time it is a real chore getting > everything > lined up and pins in etc. I am very close to airport and am considering > trailering more often . I know there are those of you that have got it > figured out. I need your help. I still have the brochures that show the > Europa on the trailer (pg7) behind the Land Rover gasing up- what a > concept! > I could be that person! Except for the Rover! Thanks for help. > > Jerry > 914 Mono > w/trailer > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:43 PM PST US From: "Jerry Rehn" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Trailering Hi Tom I'm looking for the methods and things folks have done to make the wings easier to re-rig. It is always a hit and miss to line up pins spars and all. I find two of us taking quite some time and much frustration. Perhaps it will get better as I do it more but I recall others resorting to other techniques and mods to make it much easier. Glad to see your close by. We'll try arrange a flight one day Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Friedland To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 2:25 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Trailering Hi Jerry Tom Friedland with XS Mono/Jabiru/Airmaster now in Ellensburg. (Was in BLI) There is a guy in Canada that makes a one man wing dolly on wheels that you can wheel the wing from the trailer to the ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:55 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: batteries --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > Jabiru 3300 (it has six cylinders so two are coming on compression > together) ??? Respectfully Bob, I don't think that statement is correct. Six cylinder engines have a compression event every 120 degrees of rotation of the crankshaft whereas a four cylinder has one every 180 degrees. IOW, your Jab 6 cyl has 3 compressions per revolution and the Rotax has 2. I assume the pistons in the 6 cyl Jab are larger in diameter than the Rotax engines.(hence larger top surface area) If this is so, this could also contribute to the 6 cyl Jab being harder to turn over than the Rotax subject to the their relative compression ratios of course. Cheers Kingsley do not archive (in case I'm wrong !) ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:13 PM PST US From: SPurpura@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: batteries I agree with Graham,get an Oddysey,they are much lighter and hold a charge longer. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel cap / Cobra reinforcement From: --> Europa-List message posted by: Hello Garry "Sorry, but what's a "Cobra"?" The "Cobra" is the roto molded piece of white plastic that goes between the filler cap and the fuel tank rubber elbow, it looks like the snake. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:46 PM PST US From: "Craig Ellison" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Trailering Hi Tom, I'm down in Silverton, OR just a bit south of Portland. Would love to hook up with a fellow builder and future pacific NW Europa flyer sometime I currently have 59hr on my XSmono/Rotax914/Airmaster Europa and loving every min of it. Give me a call and we'll go flying when the weather permits. craig ellison A205 N205CN 503-508-5198 ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Friedland To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 2:25 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Trailering Hi Jerry Tom Friedland with XS Mono/Jabiru/Airmaster now in Ellensburg. (Was in BLI) There is a guy in Canada that makes a one man wing dolly on wheels that you can wheel the wing from the trailer to the aircraft and pivot the wing to a horizontal position. And of course the other way around. I have the web site somewhere if you are interested. I think that they were around $750. Is there any chance of flying with you sometime? I flew in a mono once in 1998 and mine is almost ready to go so I would like to see what it is like. Tom On 10/13/06, Jerry Rehn wrote: --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jerry Rehn" For over 5 years I have been hangering and seldom using trailer. I may have used it 3 times in 6 years. Each time it is a real chore getting everything lined up and pins in etc. I am very close to airport and am considering trailering more often . I know there are those of you that have got it figured out. I need your help. I still have the brochures that show the Europa on the trailer (pg7) behind the Land Rover gasing up- what a concept! ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:05 PM PST US From: "Steven Pitt" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Trailering Jerry I have only just completed my aircraft and newly flown it so I can only report on the short experience I have of trailering and putting together. I have a closed trailer for my XS Trigear. Firstly, two is better than one IMHO - it is more fun but you need to be relaxed about getting the aircraft in and out of the trailer. Never rush as that is when you make mistakes and create the hanger rash that you don't want. Putting the aircraft together does get easier and I now find my wings slot in and the pins engage with a little bit of jiggling. Certainly it can be done within about 15 minutes without breaking out into too much sweat. For wing rigging I made a 3 wheeled dolly, which does work, just in case I get stuck without the second pair of hands. It is not as big and elegant as some I have seen but I have tested it on rough ground and with a wind blowing and it was stable enough to cope. Trestles were used for turning and positioning. The flap engagement was the worst bit as I have not yet fitted self aligning funnels to make the job easier. Taking the aircraft apart should definitely not be done in a rush but savoured after a good days flying. You are probably tired and thoughful of what has gone before so take your time. This stage takes me 1/2 hour plus if I am truthful. I must admit there have been times when I have cursed the design which allows it to be trailered but then I think of the costs and the ability to work at home. With a winch fitted I can now get the fuselage out on my own and back and work when the weather and time suits. I appreciate this is very general and I will photograph the dolly eventually. If you want any more info contact me off list. Regards Steve Pitt G-SMDH