Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:04 AM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (R.C.Harrison)
2. 03:06 AM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
3. 03:06 AM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
4. 06:08 AM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (Raimo Toivio)
5. 06:59 AM - Oil cooler thermostat (Europa List)
6. 08:07 AM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (Belinda Glover)
7. 08:38 AM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (Raimo Toivio)
8. 10:38 AM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (josok)
9. 10:38 AM - Flying for Fun" accident (josok)
10. 11:42 AM - Re: Flying for Fun" accident (Belinda Glover)
11. 01:31 PM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (Terry Seaver (terrys))
12. 02:04 PM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (R.C.Harrison)
13. 03:09 PM - Re: Airport survival (europa flugzeug fabrik)
14. 04:05 PM - Re: Flying for Fun" accident (Graham Singleton)
15. 04:35 PM - Re: Flying for Fun" accident (GLENN CROWDER)
16. 04:40 PM - Re: Re: Airport survival (John & Amy Eckel)
17. 04:43 PM - FW: Was Re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit for purpose Gills slots in top cowl" (R.C.Harrison)
18. 06:39 PM - Epibond 420. was Araldite. (creighton smith)
19. 07:46 PM - Re: Epibond 420. was Araldite. (Europa List)
20. 07:51 PM - Re: Epibond 420. was Araldite. (Rman)
21. 08:02 PM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (Rman)
22. 08:54 PM - Re: Airport survival (europa flugzeug fabrik)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Oil cooler thermostat |
Hi! Paul/ Duncan.
Thanks for the message below. Even without any gills but with the Jabiru
arrangement I had no such thing as cable tie meltdown. The nearest sign
I had was some "spirowrap" which ran under the exhaust manifolds. As I
said I believe the presence of the gills in flight allows the upper cowl
pressure to reduce so discouraging the downward cooling flow. If the
gills were added to allow residual cooling after shutdown it would be
simpler to open the top access panels immediately on shut down. I have
ordered "the fibre glass engine cooling hood" on my engine which should
also assist in preventing the heat build up in the cowl top and I expect
my intercooler air to assist with cowl top cooling too. I would have
expected the Jabiru being fully air cooled to have far more residual
heat to dissipate on shutdown anyway and since I didn't have a problem
then I will leave the gills on my new cowls closed, unless I get some
more feedback against.
I've not had a rattling response on the question
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
McAllister
Sent: 16 November 2006 00:48
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
Hi All,
Actually I have my gills rear ward facing. It wasn't by design, I just
made a mistake and I didn't even know until Andy pointed it out to me.
Although I don't have before and after measurements, the underneath of
my cowl seems cooler that some other people have reported. I base this
on the fact that I don't have any cable ties that melt under the cowl,
whereas I have heard many reports from others.
One of these days I must smear a bit of oil around to see what is
happening
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Duncan & Ami
McFadyean
IConversion of the gills to a rear-facing exit may prove beneficial (to
reducing cooling drag), although care needed to ensure fuselage
composite not overheated. I have the moulds for such a mod., but never
tried it out.
Duncan McF
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Oil cooler thermostat |
Paul,
Does this mean that you cut out the incorrect face on the gills (choice
of two faces; one correct, one not)?
You are not unique, there is at least one other around that had this
'mod'.
Duncan McF
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul McAllister
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
Hi All,
Actually I have my gills rear ward facing. It wasn't by design, I
just made a mistake and I didn't even know until Andy pointed it out to
me.
Although I don't have before and after measurements, the underneath
of my cowl seems cooler that some other people have reported. I base
this on the fact that I don't have any cable ties that melt under the
cowl, whereas I have heard many reports from others.
One of these days I must smear a bit of oil around to see what is
happening
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Duncan & Ami
McFadyean
IConversion of the gills to a rear-facing exit may prove beneficial
(to reducing cooling drag), although care needed to ensure fuselage
composite not overheated. I have the moulds for such a mod., but never
tried it out.
Duncan McF
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Oil cooler thermostat |
Closing off the gills is likely to result in thermal stress and shorter
life of the alternator regulator, if you have it mounted in that region.
A permanent hot air vent (following shutdown) in the top of the cowl can
be achieved by leaving out the baffle seals around the top of the carb
airbox. However, I have yet to discover whether this also results in
flow reversal through the cowl-top NACA duct at high AoA.
I've recently opened up this duct (without the baffle seals and having
previously run on under-cowl air) and find that the significant power
increase (a good10+% I reckon and an additional 200fpm on climb out) is
a bit fickle, depending on flight condition, suggesting variable
effectiveness of the duct.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: R.C.Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:03 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
Hi! Paul/ Duncan.
Thanks for the message below. Even without any gills but with the
Jabiru arrangement I had no such thing as cable tie meltdown. The
nearest sign I had was some "spirowrap" which ran under the exhaust
manifolds. As I said I believe the presence of the gills in flight
allows the upper cowl pressure to reduce so discouraging the downward
cooling flow. If the gills were added to allow residual cooling after
shutdown it would be simpler to open the top access panels immediately
on shut down. I have ordered "the fibre glass engine cooling hood" on my
engine which should also assist in preventing the heat build up in the
cowl top and I expect my intercooler air to assist with cowl top cooling
too. I would have expected the Jabiru being fully air cooled to have far
more residual heat to dissipate on shutdown anyway and since I didn't
have a problem then I will leave the gills on my new cowls closed,
unless I get some more feedback against.
I've not had a rattling response on the question
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
McAllister
Sent: 16 November 2006 00:48
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
Hi All,
Actually I have my gills rear ward facing. It wasn't by design, I
just made a mistake and I didn't even know until Andy pointed it out to
me.
Although I don't have before and after measurements, the underneath
of my cowl seems cooler that some other people have reported. I base
this on the fact that I don't have any cable ties that melt under the
cowl, whereas I have heard many reports from others.
One of these days I must smear a bit of oil around to see what is
happening
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Duncan & Ami
McFadyean
IConversion of the gills to a rear-facing exit may prove beneficial
(to reducing cooling drag), although care needed to ensure fuselage
composite not overheated. I have the moulds for such a mod., but never
tried it out.
Duncan McF
-- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) November is the Annual List Fund Raiser.
Click on the Contribution link below to find out more about this
year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by: * AeroElectric
www.aeroelectric.com * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com
* Aeroware Enterprises www.kitlog.com * HomebuiltHELP
www.homebuilthelp.com List Contribution Web Site -->
http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your generous
support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
- The Europa-List Email Forum - -->
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Oil cooler thermostat |
Gilles
I hope this the Spirit of the Forum:"
"Everyone here is entitled to express one's technical opinion"
So nothing personal. All the responsibility is readers not writers.
Also everybody can understand this is not pure black or white -case.
I personally trust water thermostat and that is it. Flaps are for you.
Most Rotax flyers fly w/o cowl flaps or thermostats and are happy.
My "salesmans comparson list" was made by IMHO principle.
I know and understand thermostats well but flaps; I have only
mental pictures. Maybe you could list the facts of flaps?
Ideal Temperature Regards, Raimo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilles Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
>
> Raimo,
>
> > - it is heavy (thermostat is light weight)
> > - it is complicated (thermostat is simple)
> > - it is unic hand work (thermostat is a mass serial product)
> > - it is hard to install (thermostat is straightforward)
> > - it tooks space and you have not it too much w Europa (thermostat does not)
> > - it needs regular service and inspections (thermostat is forgetable)
> > - it is expensive (thermostat is cheap)
> > - it is manual and you have one knob more (thermostat is automatic)
> > - it is not always in ideal position, because it is pilot operated
> > (thermostat is always in ideal position, no steps)
> > - when broken, it can happen in closed position and it stays closed
> > (thermostat stays open when broken but that situation happens
> > almost never - they are highreliable)
> > - when starting, cold water is cooling your engine harmly instantly
> > (when thermostat water is not cooling the engine until necessary)
> >
> >
>
> Everyone here is entitled to express one's technical opinion, and
> clearly your are sold on the water thermostat !
> I understand your motivations, and wouldn't try to dissuade you. I would
> say that you are right on most of the above points concerning the
> thermostat.
> Like many others, I sure would appreciate any technical feedback on it's
> operation.
> I only intervened in this topic because I (maybe wrongly) got the
> impression that you were asking questions about cooling.
>
> I just hope I too am entitled to express my opinion on cowl flaps, based
> on many hours experimenting and flying them, with findings somewhat
> different than most of the above points.
>
> Best regards,
> Gilles
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Oil cooler thermostat |
I would be very inclined to go with a water thermostat, but I have one
question. If it fails, does it fail closed or open?
Vaughn
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Oil cooler thermostat |
Hi Bob,
Since you know all about my "Flying for Fun" accident already, just a
word of WARNING for others reading this thread.
Don't try closing the gills if you fly an NSI Subaru in a Europa. This
PFA "Approved" installation, even with the standard gills the cooling to
the alternator is wholly inadequate and can kill you. This has now fried
2 alternator bearings out of 10 examples in the U.K. I can't find any
U.S examples of such an incident so it looks like a thoroughly home
grown U.K. installation problem.
The alternator seizure would be only a minor inconvenience were it not
for the fact that the dual drive belts as "Approved" then fill the
cockpit with thick smoke before stopping the engine via the braking
effect on the crankshaft drive pulley and the "Approved" propeller then
goes in to full disk drag freewheeling mode providing an earlier
opportunity for a forced landing than you ever bargained for with a
descent deck angle of about 20 degrees and rate of 1700ft/min and with
the all flying"now no longer flying" tailplane allowing you to slap the
stick from stop to stop on the way down as you relearn how to fly the
crippled airframe. All this of course negating any amount of practice
forced landings you were forced to do before being allowed to test fly
the creation yourself and which were so misrepresentative as to have
best been avoided completely !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Been there done that got the T-shirt just like Bill Wynne who had it
happen first but sadly his incident was never subsequently properly
investigated. It will be now though my wreckage is with the AAIB at
Farnborough.
I am still trying to find out if "Approved" for regulatory end users
means anything other than you are "Approved" to go and be our
installation test pilot with a passenger, oh and in case you survive
please report any testing we might have overlooked !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Despite the direct question having been twice posed to the PFA, by me
and the AAIB so far no cigar!!!!!!!!!!!
Ironically, I just applied for the PFA airworthiness engineer job, which
I thought might have even come about because of our near death
experience. I just received a response having heard nothing for a
fortnight as follows;
" Unfortunately you were not short listed for the initial interviews".
That is despite going and asking if I would be wasting my time preparing
a C.V. before hand!
Incedently our Europa callsign was G-BWCV abbreviated to 'CV. Obviously
our recent ridiculous incident was not deemed the right sort of 'CV for
that particular job.
So look outl for the AAIB report coming out soon if you realy want a
case study in how not to do it!!!!!
If anybody thought "Approved" in the regulatory end user context was a
verb implying knowledge or understanding and testing to a standard at
least minimally fit for purpose like I did, think again.
Like most things these days you end up having to do other peoples jobs
for them whilst in the case of the regulators they tie both hands behind
your back when you try to do your own.
Regards
Gary McKirdy
From: R.C.Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
Hi! Nigel/all
My two pennyworth .....I also tried a cowl exit flap but not to close
off. My Jabiru cooling system of course was ALL air cooled and the
theory ventured by the Jab dealer and Factory was to extend it into the
air stream and create a low pressure area aft of the cooling exit to
suck out the hot air..... needless to say it made no improvement
whatever. However what I did find was that it was important to maintain
top cowl pressure high to promote the mass down flow of air past the
engine, I even collected my cabin heating air(when not being used for
purpose) and dumped it in the cowl top which also assisted. Since all
the high pressure oil cooling air was directed under the sump cooling
fins(Rotax oil and water cooling likewise) to leave it "floating" in the
lower cowl restrained the downward flow of engine cooling air.
You may ask why am I "rabbitting on" about damn Jabiru's ?.... so to
my question:-
What purpose do the Europa "Gills" serve?
Has anyone flown with them blocked off to check the effects?
As it happens, against most advice, I have decided to fit an
intercooler on my 914 Turbo which of course has a huge discharge of warm
air mostly into the top cowling and I'm not sure it's the right
philosophy to let it exit out the "gills", with my Jabiru experiences
I'm suggesting that to increase the down flow of air, even with water
and oil cooling on the engine, it would be best maintaining the top cowl
pressure.
I never had any top cowl exits on my Jabiru set up ...all air was
discharged out the lower cowl exit plus the lower cowl was "jacked" off
the fuselage by approx 1" increasing the discharge annulus considerably.
Any help with these questions would be gratefully received.
I also would have liked to have the Rotax oil flow to its cooler
selectable and/or meterable which I achieved on the Jabiru by a hand
control valve operated from the P1 Position allowing most flying to be
accomplished without the cooler being in circuit. The resultant warm air
(even with no oil circulating though the cooler) was a primary source
of cabin heat and with the oil cooler in full flow I could fry the
passenger, I get the feeling that a number of Europa Rotax owners would
dearly like such a facility !
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG (Still prepared to learn!)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nigel
charles
Sent: 15 November 2006 09:38
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
<nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk>
>It is best to place a flap at the exit of the cowl/radiator duct.
Placing an obstruction in the front destroys dynamic pressure. An we
need to recover as much pressure as we can to persuade the air to flow
across the rad core.<
For what its worth I tried a cooler flap at the rear of the radiators.
With it fully closed it cut off nearly all the airflow and it made
little difference to the CHT and oil temperatures.
When I was at Vichy this year I met one of our French owners (sorry I
forgot his name). He has a very clever inlet cowl flap. It is part of
the lower cowl in front of the radiators and has a hinge at the rear
of
it. In very hot weather it is lowered below the normal cowl allowing
more cooling air in. In cold weather it is raised impeding airflow to
the radiators. This is all controlled from the cockpit so that
inflight
adjustments can be made. From what he told me it works very well.
I appreciate that normally control of cooling air is best done at the
outlet but in this case it seems it is better to use the inlet.
Nigel Charles
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Oil cooler thermostat |
Vaughn,
I cannot be absolutely sure but NORMALLY
thermostat design itself leaves it fully
open in failure situation.
Who knows ANY broken thermostat in
cars (younger than 10-20 years)?
Problems may occur if the coolant liquid
is NEVER changed.
In cars most people never do it IMHO.
Just like brake fluid, it should be changed
regularly (let=B4s say once a 1-3 year
to remove moisture and small obstackles etc).
May I suggest you to go some car spare shop,
keep it on your hand and look at it carefully?
Regards, Raimo
----- Original Message -----
From: Europa List
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 4:57 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
I would be very inclined to go with a water thermostat, but I have one
question. If it fails, does it fail closed or open?
Vaughn
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Oil cooler thermostat |
Could it be, that the combination of open gills, bottom cowl opening and entry
holes in front creates a pocket of standing air, or pulls air from around the
exhaust over the generator or would it not be better to have a designated, more
or less defined single entry and exit point? So doing away with the gills all
together.
I've asked Andy the same question on his last day at the factory, and if i remembered
correctly the answer was something like "needed only after shutdown" To
prevent heat collecting under the cows after shutdown on a hot day i could just
open the inspection covers?
Kind Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Flying for Fun" accident |
Hi Gary
Sorry about your accident, from which i can't recall hearing anything. Happy to
see you survived it. There are several points in the message that i would like
to have more clarification on, forgive me for asking dumb questions please.
Started a new thread as well, to keep the subject of the previous line clean.
"dual drive belts as "Approved" then fill the cockpit with thick smoke before stopping
the engine"
There is a firewall between the engine and the cockpit, how did the smoke enter
the cockpit?
I have had one generator seizing on me, in a car, that is once in 43 years and
2 million miles. It had been screaming for weeks before it happened, did your
generator freeze out of the blue sky?
Kind Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flying for Fun" accident |
Jos,
The Europa Mono has the combined flap/gear lever and brake lever holes cut
in the centre tunnel and poorly fitting stainless steel plate in front of
the centre tunnel through which the smoke arrived as if a smoke grenade had
gone off.
It was indeed literally an out of the blue failure almost in to the blue as
well since I thought at one point I might have to ditch in the sea at the
Seven estuary to put the smoke/fire out!
In hindsight the "Approved" installation had the normally reliable
Nippondenser alternator sat high aft in the cowls which proved too much for
the grease in the sealed bearing.
The fact that the water cooled intake manifold sat right behind it, the
swirl pot to the side, the electronic ignition heat sink radiator plates in
front and the remote oil tank radiating oil temperature straight on the
alternator pulley bearing also in front probably caused the overheat
failure.
The installation of the dual pulley added extra overhang loads to the
bearing and the cooling fan had to be removed to fit the dual pulley!!!!!!
You see I should have been offered an interview for the PFA airworthiness
engineers job after even if only to have the pleasure of turning it down! I
have been doing it anywhere here for some time without any pay or
recognition, someone has to.
Regards
Gary McKirdy
Hope that explains it
----- Original Message -----
From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Flying for Fun" accident
>
> Hi Gary
>
> Sorry about your accident, from which i can't recall hearing anything.
Happy to see you survived it. There are several points in the message that i
would like to have more clarification on, forgive me for asking dumb
questions please. Started a new thread as well, to keep the subject of the
previous line clean.
> "dual drive belts as "Approved" then fill the cockpit with thick smoke
before stopping the engine"
> There is a firewall between the engine and the cockpit, how did the smoke
enter the cockpit?
> I have had one generator seizing on me, in a car, that is once in 43 years
and 2 million miles. It had been screaming for weeks before it happened, did
your generator freeze out of the blue sky?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Oil cooler thermostat |
Just a comment on the 'gills'. We spent a lot of time curing our temp
problems on a 912S powered XS, instrumenting and logging in flight
various temperatures under the cowl. Our experiences indicate to us
that the gills significantly hurt cooling in flight and doesn't help
much cooling the engine after shutdown.
In flight, the gills allow cooling air from the front eyeball inlets
to bypass most of the engine, exiting without helping cool anything
particularly hot. Blocking them off completely caused no significant
temperature rise in the top, rear, of the cowl, which remained within a
few degrees of ambient during all phases of flight.
As for cooling the engine after shutdown, only the coolant inspection
panel on top of the cowl seems to help much, the gills are too low to
get much convection action going.
We did end up closing off all but one of the gills, leaving that one
open just in case we missed something, although flight testing with ALL
of them closed off indicated no real reason for having it open.
Just my two cents worth,
Terry Seaver
A135/N135TD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
Could it be, that the combination of open gills, bottom cowl opening and
entry holes in front creates a pocket of standing air, or pulls air from
around the exhaust over the generator or would it not be better to have
a designated, more or less defined single entry and exit point? So doing
away with the gills all together.
I've asked Andy the same question on his last day at the factory, and if
i remembered correctly the answer was something like "needed only after
shutdown" To prevent heat collecting under the cows after shutdown on a
hot day i could just open the inspection covers?
Kind Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Oil cooler thermostat |
Hi! Jos
These are exactly my thoughts.
BTW I'll be in Gallivare? for Christmas and New Year! For a christening
.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Do not archive...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok
Sent: 16 November 2006 18:37
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
Could it be, that the combination of open gills, bottom cowl opening and
entry holes in front creates a pocket of standing air, or pulls air from
around the exhaust over the generator or would it not be better to have
a designated, more or less defined single entry and exit point? So doing
away with the gills all together.
I've asked Andy the same question on his last day at the factory, and if
i remembered correctly the answer was something like "needed only after
shutdown" To prevent heat collecting under the cows after shutdown on a
hot day i could just open the inspection covers?
Kind Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Airport survival |
eckel1(at)comcast.net wrote:
> A proposal has been made to the town to make the property a combination airport
and playing fields. They have agreed to look into this option so we are
hopeful. What I would like to know is if anyone has ever seen such a combination
and how successfully they have operated together.
We have such an airport -- with an indoor sports setup (tennis, basketball, etc)
and an outdoor soccer field, all private-sector investment and operation. It
must be losing big time, I think for obvious reasons. Theres no compatibility
problem, but a fence is needed for liability reasons, if thats your question.
Plus, I wouldnt want to be landing there just on the off-chance something could
happen. Id rather crash into the fence than hurt anybody.
Aint Google quick and cool, cause I found that the County will front $1.5 million
for this. But with a fence, and depending upon size, that $1.5 mil may not
stretch far enough. You also didnt say if govt intends to charge the public
fees, to be as self-sustaining as possible. With fees it wont be. Apparently 4
small towns would be involved in this, and voters there usually set the $$ limits.
There could be organized opposition, which should be headed off now, if
feared. In our nice suburb of 75,000, voters once approved an indoor skating
rink, roller and ice. Very popular. City recently proposed another rink. 70/30
to defeat, even as a bond issue; taxes are high enough. Voters are actually
smart. The first rink in a pretty brick building in a pretty City Park was
about property values -- a town to live in. The second rink was just about
skaters, a small % of voters.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75069#75069
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flying for Fun" accident |
The N'Denso alternator is reliable if properly installed, so is the
Subaru engine, However, the NSI /Subaru conversion has a very poor
reliability record. The alternator failure was exactly the same as Bill
Wynne's it seems, it wasn't "out of the blue", imho it was just a
matter of time.
I haven't looked closely at the alternator placing but my understanding
is that the belt tension necessary to drive the alternator results in
bearing overload. IOWs bad engineering design.
The gear box (redrive) has a similar record, frequent failures due to
overheating but for different reasons. These Subaru installations were
aproved by PFA but without the benefit of hindsight. NSI marketing was
very seductive at the time. I doubt if they would be aproved now except
under "grandfather " considerations.
Graham
Belinda Glover wrote:
>It was indeed literally an out of the blue failure almost in to the blue as
>well since I thought at one point I might have to ditch in the sea at the
>Seven estuary to put the smoke/fire out!
>
>In hindsight the "Approved" installation had the normally reliable
>Nippondenser alternator sat high aft in the cowls which proved too much for
>the grease in the sealed bearing.
>
>
>
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flying for Fun" accident |
The problem with the dual pulley setup on this engine is that it is very
easy to put
too much tension in the belts. I was shocked to check my belt tension after
a
hot shutdown and found it was extremely tight. The engine expansion after
running up to temp tightens the belt severely. It must be set quite loose
to get
the right tension when hot. I have also heard of cracked alternator
brackets from
the same cause. Also, the internal alternator fan is there for a good
reason!
In addition, it is a good idea to run a blast tube to cool the alternator on
very
tightly cowled units. Very sorry to hear of this accident.
Glenn
>From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flying for Fun" accident
>Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 00:07:55 +0000
>
><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
>The N'Denso alternator is reliable if properly installed, so is the Subaru
>engine, However, the NSI /Subaru conversion has a very poor reliability
>record. The alternator failure was exactly the same as Bill Wynne's it
>seems, it wasn't "out of the blue", imho it was just a matter of time.
>I haven't looked closely at the alternator placing but my understanding is
>that the belt tension necessary to drive the alternator results in bearing
>overload. IOWs bad engineering design.
>The gear box (redrive) has a similar record, frequent failures due to
>overheating but for different reasons. These Subaru installations were
>aproved by PFA but without the benefit of hindsight. NSI marketing was very
>seductive at the time. I doubt if they would be aproved now except under
>"grandfather " considerations.
>Graham
>
>Belinda Glover wrote:
>
>>It was indeed literally an out of the blue failure almost in to the blue
>>as
>>well since I thought at one point I might have to ditch in the sea at the
>>Seven estuary to put the smoke/fire out!
>>
>>In hindsight the "Approved" installation had the normally reliable
>>Nippondenser alternator sat high aft in the cowls which proved too much
>>for
>>the grease in the sealed bearing.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from
Microsoft Office Live
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Airport survival |
The County is putting up $500,000 this year and $1.5 million next year for
the purchase of the field from the present owners. One of the attractions
of the airport is that it is flat and they feel all
they have to do is put lines down and put up goal posts.
We are pushing the idea of keeping the airport for educational as well as
recreational use. Things like the Young Eagles program ( we just flew 42
kids) and Boy Scout merit badges.
Adults also need recreation and the airport would serve that purpose,
especially for Sport pilots. I have been told that Charles Lindberg used
the airport, so there are historical reasons to keep the airport. It is
only 8 miles from where he lived in Hopewell, NJ. (The same town as the
airport) There are a lot of good reasons, but it will be a lot of work.
Thanks for writing.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu@comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:07 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Airport survival
> <n3eu@comcast.net>
>
>
> eckel1(at)comcast.net wrote:
>> A proposal has been made to the town to make the property a combination
>> airport and playing fields. They have agreed to look into this option
>> so we are hopeful. What I would like to know is if anyone has ever seen
>> such a combination and how successfully they have operated together.
>
> We have such an airport -- with an indoor sports setup (tennis,
> basketball, etc) and an outdoor soccer field, all private-sector
> investment and operation. It must be losing big time, I think for obvious
> reasons. There?Ts no compatibility problem, but a fence is needed for
> liability reasons, if that?Ts your question. Plus, I wouldn?Tt want to
> be landing there just on the off-chance something could happen. I?Td
> rather crash into the fence than hurt anybody.
>
> Ain?Tt Google quick and cool, ?~cause I found that the County will front
> $1.5 million for this. But with a fence, and depending upon size, that
> $1.5 mil may not stretch far enough. You also didn?Tt say if gov?Tt
> intends to charge the public fees, to be as self-sustaining as possible.
> With fees it won?Tt be. Apparently 4 small towns would be involved in
> this, and voters there usually set the $$ limits. There could be
> organized opposition, which should be headed off now, if feared. In our
> nice suburb of 75,000, voters once approved an indoor skating rink, roller
> and ice. Very popular. City recently proposed another rink. 70/30 to
> defeat, even as a bond issue; taxes are high enough. Voters are actually
> smart. The first rink in a pretty brick building in a pretty City Park
> was about property values -- a town to live in. The second rink was just
> about skaters, a small % of voters.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75069#75069
>
>
>
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | FW: Was re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit for purpose |
Gills slots in top cowl"
Hi! All Europa Forum
Below is a message sequence I published thanking Terry Seaver for his
contribution of information. Seemingly it has been blocked by some
"Baracuda Spam Firewall Protection system of the Matronics Site .
Please give it access.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: R.C.Harrison [mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 16 November 2006 22:23
Subject: Was re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit for purpose Gills
slots in top cowl"
Hi! Terry
Thanks for the message below, it is invaluable at my stage of re-build
and I was suspicious of the facts having had no gills on my Jabiru
arrangement.
I will be making reference about your results should I need a mod.
application if you don't mind.
Regards and "thanks a million"!
Bob Harrison G-PTAG preparing for a 914 Rotax.c/w intercooler!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry
Seaver (terrys)
Sent: 16 November 2006 21:30
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
<terrys@cisco.com>
Just a comment on the 'gills'. We spent a lot of time curing our temp
problems on a 912S powered XS, instrumenting and logging in flight
various temperatures under the cowl. Our experiences indicate to us
that the gills significantly hurt cooling in flight and doesn't help
much cooling the engine after shutdown.
In flight, the gills allow cooling air from the front eyeball inlets
to bypass most of the engine, exiting without helping cool anything
particularly hot. Blocking them off completely caused no significant
temperature rise in the top, rear, of the cowl, which remained within a
few degrees of ambient during all phases of flight.
As for cooling the engine after shutdown, only the coolant inspection
panel on top of the cowl seems to help much, the gills are too low to
get much convection action going.
We did end up closing off all but one of the gills, leaving that one
open just in case we missed something, although flight testing with ALL
of them closed off indicated no real reason for having it open.
Just my two cents worth,
Terry Seaver
A135/N135TD
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Epibond 420. was Araldite. |
Good morning all.
I've taken over a Classic kit and am in need of some, as we call it in
the USA, Araldite 420.
I have several questions.
1) How much is needed to bond the top, doors, glass, etc on average?
2) Is there an acceptable substitute generally available in the US?
3) Does anyone have an unexpired Kg to sell?
4) Does anyone or several people want to go in on a 6 Kg minimum order?
I can't seem to get anyone to a) return phone calls or b) sell less
than 6ea 1Kg cans.
And now for something completely different.
How have the many holes and slots in the tunnel been successfully stoppered?
Thanks,
Creighton Smith
A036 Classic
Vermont USA
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Epibond 420. was Araldite. |
I was able to get a 1 quart kit from the people below. When I ordered mine
in September, they had 3 quart kits left. It's now called Epibond 420.
The distributor that 3 quarts in stock in September is:
Krayden Industries
Denver, CO
1-800-448-0406
I spoke with Edie to place my order.
Vaughn Teegarden
N914VA
----- Original Message -----
From: "creighton smith" <crouton@well.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 9:28 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Epibond 420. was Araldite.
>
> Good morning all.
> I've taken over a Classic kit and am in need of some, as we call it in the
> USA, Araldite 420.
> I have several questions.
> 1) How much is needed to bond the top, doors, glass, etc on average?
> 2) Is there an acceptable substitute generally available in the US?
> 3) Does anyone have an unexpired Kg to sell?
> 4) Does anyone or several people want to go in on a 6 Kg minimum order?
> I can't seem to get anyone to a) return phone calls or b) sell less than
> 6ea 1Kg cans.
> And now for something completely different.
> How have the many holes and slots in the tunnel been successfully
> stoppered?
> Thanks,
> Creighton Smith
> A036 Classic
> Vermont USA
>
>
>
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Epibond 420. was Araldite. |
Contact AeroPoxy. Talk to their tech guy. Very helpful. About half of
Baby Blue is assembled with their stuff. I don't remember the
particular part number (I opted for the 60 minute working time hardner),
but, apparantly it is used in the construction of the Velocity line of
kits. I've had zero problems with the bonds after 240 hours of flying.
Oh yeah, quart kits are something like $39....
Jeff - Baby Blue
240 hours...
creighton smith wrote:
>
> Good morning all.
> I've taken over a Classic kit and am in need of some, as we call it in
> the USA, Araldite 420.
> I have several questions.
> 1) How much is needed to bond the top, doors, glass, etc on average?
> 2) Is there an acceptable substitute generally available in the US?
> 3) Does anyone have an unexpired Kg to sell?
> 4) Does anyone or several people want to go in on a 6 Kg minimum order?
> I can't seem to get anyone to a) return phone calls or b) sell less
> than 6ea 1Kg cans.
> And now for something completely different.
> How have the many holes and slots in the tunnel been successfully
> stoppered?
> Thanks,
> Creighton Smith
> A036 Classic
> Vermont USA
>
>
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Oil cooler thermostat |
It's funny how different builds render different results. I was
experiencing high temps, both on the ground and in the air, with the
gills open. I closed them, and temps went up, across the board.
Lowering the water radiator and sealing it to the lower cowl with a
rubber seal dropped temps by 10-20 degrees F. My cowl slits are now
open and temps are normal. I should mention that I did the firewall
mod, suggested by Bob at Flightcrafters, which is sealing the tunnel
(tri-gear) behind the bungies and leaving the factory firewall out,
completely. Lots of air exiting that big hole. The Construction can be
seen at http://www.N55XS.com
Jeff - Baby Blue
240 hours
josok wrote:
>
>Could it be, that the combination of open gills, bottom cowl opening and entry
holes in front creates a pocket of standing air, or pulls air from around the
exhaust over the generator or would it not be better to have a designated, more
or less defined single entry and exit point? So doing away with the gills all
together.
>I've asked Andy the same question on his last day at the factory, and if i remembered
correctly the answer was something like "needed only after shutdown" To
prevent heat collecting under the cows after shutdown on a hot day i could just
open the inspection covers?
>
>Kind Regards,
>
>Jos Okhuijsen
>
>
>Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
>
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Airport survival |
eckel1(at)comcast.net wrote:
> Adults also need recreation and the airport would serve that purpose, especially
for Sport pilots. I have been told that Charles Lindberg used the airport,
so there are historical reasons to keep the airport. It is only 8 miles from
where he lived in Hopewell, NJ. (The same town as the airport) There are a
lot of good reasons, but it will be a lot of work.
Indeed. And that really works for me as long-time pilot and aircraft owner, but
scrap the nostalgia except as anecdotal. Strictly business, as in the Godfather
movies. Take a tip from somebody who is an officer in our Airport User Association.
Ive been politely lectured more than once in the Mayors office or that
of County Commissioners, each of avoiding sunshine laws. Ive several times
got up before the microphone to address government on the merits if the issue
for the public good, with people from themedia table flagging me down for quoted
comment. Unlike usually annoying talking heads on TV of the federal pols,
local pols make crap for pay, and they really want to make the commonweal work.
You want to save that airport for your airplane, marginal utility though a turf
strip may be, but please scrap that agenda. The beauty of American democracy
is how (sadly or not) few people get involved at the local level to make things
happen. And local pols can be rather clueless. Success or failure, its a priceless
experience.
Fred F.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75131#75131
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|