Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:39 AM - List Value... (Matt Dralle)
1. 12:36 AM - oil thermostat vs cowl flap (=?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?=)
2. 12:47 AM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat ...Now Top Cowl cooling gills. (R.C.Harrison)
3. 02:47 AM - Re: Epibond 420. was Araldite. (William Daniell)
4. 03:24 AM - Ivoprop (David Joyce)
5. 03:39 AM - Re: Ivoprop (Graham Singleton)
6. 03:50 AM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (rick)
7. 04:54 AM - Re: Ivoprop (Pete Lawless)
8. 05:00 AM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat....now top cowl cooling gills? (R.C.Harrison)
9. 05:00 AM - Re: Ivoprop (Sven den Boer)
10. 07:25 AM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (Rob Housman)
11. 09:38 AM - Re: FW: Was Re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit for purpose Gills slots in top cowl" (Terry Seaver (terrys))
12. 10:45 AM - FW: resume Totally off subject, but funny (Alan Burrows)
13. 11:38 AM - Jabiru Video (Jon Croke)
14. 03:26 PM - Re: Ivoprop (NevEyre@aol.com)
15. 05:27 PM - Re: Ivoprop (Karl Heindl)
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If you look forward to checking your List email everyday (and a lot of you have
written to say that you do!), then you're probably getting at least 0 or 0 worth
of Entertainment from the Lists each year. You'd pay twice that for a subscription
to some lame magazine or even a dinner out. Isn't the List worth at
least that much to you? Wouldn't it be great if you could pay that same amount
and get a well-managed media source free of advertising, SPAM, and viruses?
Come to think of it, you do...
Won't you please take a minute to make your Contribution today and support YOUR
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Contribution Page:
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Again, I want to say THANK YOU to everyone that has made a Contribution thus far
during this year's List Fund Raiser!! These Lists are made possible exclusively
through YOUR generosity!!
Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
Message 1
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| Subject: | oil thermostat vs cowl flap |
Hello Nigel,
Thank you for your comments on my inlet cowl flap you saw in Vichy. Some ad
ditional information: the lower position is to be used on the ground only.
The flap must be raised to the neutral position just before take-off. If yo
u don=99t, it is very difficult to actuate in flight due to the huge
aerodynamic forces. From neutral to the upper position, it can be adjuste
d at will in flight to control the CHT and oil temperatures: especially use
ful in winter.
Regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 435 hours
When I was at Vichy this year I met one of our French owners (sorry I
forgot his name). He has a very clever inlet cowl flap. It is part of
the lower cowl in front of the radiators and has a hinge at the rear of
it. In very hot weather it is lowered below the normal cowl allowing
more cooling air in. In cold weather it is raised impeding airflow to
the radiators. This is all controlled from the cockpit so that inflight
adjustments can be made.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Oil cooler thermostat ...Now Top Cowl cooling gills. |
Hi! Jeff,
Thanks for the in-put.
However I notice that you effected a change in the radiator arrangement
at the same time as opening the gills. In the light of Terry Seavers
detailed study of cowl temperatures have you any readings noted to
really identify the separate cooling contribution the gills are actually
making?
Sorry to all that I seem to be "re-inventing the wheel" on these issues
but there seems to be some relevance in my questions when taken together
with my previous experiences.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rman
Sent: 17 November 2006 04:02
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
It's funny how different builds render different results. I was
experiencing high temps, both on the ground and in the air, with the
gills open. I closed them, and temps went up, across the board.
Lowering the water radiator and sealing it to the lower cowl with a
rubber seal dropped temps by 10-20 degrees F. My cowl slits are now
open and temps are normal. I should mention that I did the firewall
mod, suggested by Bob at Flightcrafters, which is sealing the tunnel
(tri-gear) behind the bungies and leaving the factory firewall out,
completely. Lots of air exiting that big hole. The Construction can be
seen at http://www.N55XS.com
Jeff - Baby Blue
240 hours
josok wrote:
>
>Could it be, that the combination of open gills, bottom cowl opening
and entry holes in front creates a pocket of standing air, or pulls air
from around the exhaust over the generator or would it not be better to
have a designated, more or less defined single entry and exit point? So
doing away with the gills all together.
>I've asked Andy the same question on his last day at the factory, and
if i remembered correctly the answer was something like "needed only
after shutdown" To prevent heat collecting under the cows after shutdown
on a hot day i could just open the inspection covers?
>
>Kind Regards,
>
>Jos Okhuijsen
Message 3
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| Subject: | Epibond 420. was Araldite. |
You can get Araldite from Gladys martinez in MIA
gmartinez@aeropia.com
was very efficient with my order
but I suspect that jeffs answer would b e satisfactory...but then what do I
know?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rman
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 22:51
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Epibond 420. was Araldite.
Contact AeroPoxy. Talk to their tech guy. Very helpful. About half of
Baby Blue is assembled with their stuff. I don't remember the
particular part number (I opted for the 60 minute working time hardner),
but, apparantly it is used in the construction of the Velocity line of
kits. I've had zero problems with the bonds after 240 hours of flying.
Oh yeah, quart kits are something like $39....
Jeff - Baby Blue
240 hours...
creighton smith wrote:
>
> Good morning all.
> I've taken over a Classic kit and am in need of some, as we call it in
> the USA, Araldite 420.
> I have several questions.
> 1) How much is needed to bond the top, doors, glass, etc on average?
> 2) Is there an acceptable substitute generally available in the US?
> 3) Does anyone have an unexpired Kg to sell?
> 4) Does anyone or several people want to go in on a 6 Kg minimum order?
> I can't seem to get anyone to a) return phone calls or b) sell less
> than 6ea 1Kg cans.
> And now for something completely different.
> How have the many holes and slots in the tunnel been successfully
> stoppered?
> Thanks,
> Creighton Smith
> A036 Classic
> Vermont USA
>
>
Message 4
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I have a friend who is contemplating putting an Ivoprop on a 914. Does
anyone have experience of, or views on this prop? David Joyce, G-XSDJ
Message 5
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David
Yes, my view is don't do it. The factory tried one and it failed in
flight, fortunately nothing fell off but there have been accidents in
the US. I think the Kemble accident Europa had one but I haven't seen
the accident report.
Graham
David Joyce wrote:
>
>I have a friend who is contemplating putting an Ivoprop on a 914. Does
>anyone have experience of, or views on this prop? David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Oil cooler thermostat |
Hi Bob
I've just picked up on this thread as I've been away. I have flown for the
last year with the gills taped over. No problem. Can't say as I've noticed
much difference as flight profile, temp, altitude etc etc make such a
difference.
I'm building an RV7 with a full plenum and am told that any pressure release
is bad.
I control my water / oil temperatures by adding or removing lengths of pipe
insulation from the water radiator inlet. Seems to work.
All the best
Rick
Rick Morris G-RIKS
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison
Sent: 15 November 2006 11:43
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
Hi! Nigel/all
My two pennyworth .....I also tried a cowl exit flap but not to close off.
My Jabiru cooling system of course was ALL air cooled and the theory
ventured by the Jab dealer and Factory was to extend it into the air stream
and create a low pressure area aft of the cooling exit to suck out the hot
air..... needless to say it made no improvement whatever. However what I did
find was that it was important to maintain top cowl pressure high to promote
the mass down flow of air past the engine, I even collected my cabin heating
air(when not being used for purpose) and dumped it in the cowl top which
also assisted. Since all the high pressure oil cooling air was directed
under the sump cooling fins(Rotax oil and water cooling likewise) to leave
it "floating" in the lower cowl restrained the downward flow of engine
cooling air.
You may ask why am I "rabbitting on" about damn Jabiru's ?.... so to my
question:-
What purpose do the Europa "Gills" serve?
Has anyone flown with them blocked off to check the effects?
As it happens, against most advice, I have decided to fit an intercooler on
my 914 Turbo which of course has a huge discharge of warm air mostly into
the top cowling and I'm not sure it's the right philosophy to let it exit
out the "gills", with my Jabiru experiences I'm suggesting that to increase
the down flow of air, even with water and oil cooling on the engine, it
would be best maintaining the top cowl pressure.
I never had any top cowl exits on my Jabiru set up ...all air was discharged
out the lower cowl exit plus the lower cowl was "jacked" off the fuselage by
approx 1" increasing the discharge annulus considerably.
Any help with these questions would be gratefully received.
I also would have liked to have the Rotax oil flow to its cooler selectable
and/or meterable which I achieved on the Jabiru by a hand control valve
operated from the P1 Position allowing most flying to be accomplished
without the cooler being in circuit. The resultant warm air (even with no
oil circulating though the cooler) was a primary source of cabin heat and
with the oil cooler in full flow I could fry the passenger, I get the
feeling that a number of Europa Rotax owners would dearly like such a
facility !
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG (Still prepared to learn!)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nigel charles
Sent: 15 November 2006 09:38
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
>It is best to place a flap at the exit of the cowl/radiator duct.
Placing an obstruction in the front destroys dynamic pressure. An we
need to recover as much pressure as we can to persuade the air to flow
across the rad core.<
For what its worth I tried a cooler flap at the rear of the radiators.
With it fully closed it cut off nearly all the airflow and it made
little difference to the CHT and oil temperatures.
When I was at Vichy this year I met one of our French owners (sorry I
forgot his name). He has a very clever inlet cowl flap. It is part of
the lower cowl in front of the radiators and has a hinge at the rear of
it. In very hot weather it is lowered below the normal cowl allowing
more cooling air in. In cold weather it is raised impeding airflow to
the radiators. This is all controlled from the cockpit so that inflight
adjustments can be made. From what he told me it works very well.
I appreciate that normally control of cooling air is best done at the
outlet but in this case it seems it is better to use the inlet.
Nigel Charles
Message 7
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Hi David s
The Kemble accident Europa did have an Ivoprop but that had nothing to do
with the accident according to the AAIB report.
I did see it in action on the ground a few weeks before the accident and it
did not seem to vary the revs much in comparison with my NSI prop.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: 17 November 2006 11:41
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ivoprop
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
David
Yes, my view is don't do it. The factory tried one and it failed in
flight, fortunately nothing fell off but there have been accidents in
the US. I think the Kemble accident Europa had one but I haven't seen
the accident report.
Graham
David Joyce wrote:
<davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
>I have a friend who is contemplating putting an Ivoprop on a 914. Does
>anyone have experience of, or views on this prop? David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>
>
>
>
--
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Oil cooler thermostat....now top cowl cooling gills? |
Thanks for that Rick.
I'm going the same way, never had a shut down overheat problem with any
of the Jabiru equipment and if it had been possible it would have found
it !
I trust you took out a PFA Mod Number ?????
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
PS Shhhh! "never make love in a corn field, even the corn has ears!"
Do not archive...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rick
Sent: 17 November 2006 11:49
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
Hi Bob
I've just picked up on this thread as I've been away. I have flown for
the last year with the gills taped over. No problem. Can't say as I've
noticed much difference as flight profile, temp, altitude etc etc make
such a difference.
I'm building an RV7 with a full plenum and am told that any pressure
release is bad.
I control my water / oil temperatures by adding or removing lengths of
pipe insulation from the water radiator inlet. Seems to work.
All the best
Rick
Rick Morris G-RIKS
Message 9
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David,
I tried this path as well, comment from Andy was; "If I had one as a ceiling
fan, I would wear a helmet at home".
I switched to the Kremen SR3000 and I like it a lot.
Cheers
Sven
A168 (for sale: http://www.planecheck.com?ent=da&id=6510)
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:23 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Ivoprop
> <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
> I have a friend who is contemplating putting an Ivoprop on a 914. Does
> anyone have experience of, or views on this prop? David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Oil cooler thermostat |
Well, since you asked.
I recently had to replace the thermostat in my 1995 Mazda Miata (OK, that is
a trifle older than 10 years). Since the thing failed CLOSED I also had to
replace the radiator which burst from the pressure built up when the engine
overheated (which implies that the pressure relief feature of the radiator
cap also did not work as intended). The car has been maintained per Mazda
recommendations.
As for failing in the open position, consider that it normally cycles with
engine temperature and therefore can jam in either the open or closed
position.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
Vaughn,
I cannot be absolutely sure but NORMALLY
thermostat design itself leaves it fully
open in failure situation.
Who knows ANY broken thermostat in
cars (younger than 10-20 years)?
Problems may occur if the coolant liquid
is NEVER changed.
In cars most people never do it IMHO.
Just like brake fluid, it should be changed
regularly (lets say once a 1-3 year
to remove moisture and small obstackles etc).
May I suggest you to go some car spare shop,
keep it on your hand and look at it carefully?
Regards, Raimo
----- Original Message -----
From: Europa List <mailto:n914va@bvunet.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 4:57 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat
I would be very inclined to go with a water thermostat, but I have one
question. If it fails, does it fail closed or open?
Vaughn
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
<http://www.buildersbooks.com>
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com>
Message 11
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| Subject: | FW: Was re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit for purpose |
Gills slots in top cowl"
Hi Bob,
In case you don't already have this link, here is the location of our
write-up for the cowl cooling mods, etc. Just look at the 'engine
compartment cooling' section.
http://terryseaver.home.comcast.net/N135TD_mods.htm
It has been commented that not all aircraft are alike in their cooling
issues, which I'm sure is quite true. The 912S installation acts
differently from the 914, and the mono-wheel quite different from the
tri-gear. Never-the-less, I believe the cowl mods we made might be
useful for all installations using the factory XS cowl, in that our mod
forces cooling air to pass, top-to-bottom, around the cylinders and out
the rear. Without the baffle behind the engine (and the louvers closed
off), cooling air just passes behind the engine instead. Remember, the
Rotax has liquid cooled heads, BUT air cooled cylinders, which implies
to me the need for baffling under the cowl similar to that done on
air-cooled LyCo-saurs.
Regards,
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
R.C.Harrison
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 4:43 PM
Subject: Europa-List: FW: Was re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit
for purpose Gills slots in top cowl"
--> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! All Europa Forum
Below is a message sequence I published thanking Terry Seaver for his
contribution of information. Seemingly it has been blocked by some
"Baracuda Spam Firewall Protection system of the Matronics Site .
Please give it access.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: R.C.Harrison [mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 16 November 2006 22:23
Subject: Was re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit for purpose Gills
slots in top cowl"
Hi! Terry
Thanks for the message below, it is invaluable at my stage of re-build
and I was suspicious of the facts having had no gills on my Jabiru
arrangement.
I will be making reference about your results should I need a mod.
application if you don't mind.
Regards and "thanks a million"!
Bob Harrison G-PTAG preparing for a 914 Rotax.c/w intercooler!
Message 12
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| Subject: | FW: resume Totally off subject, but funny |
My first job was working in an Orange Juice factory, but I got canned. I
couldn't concentrate.
Then I worked in the woods as a Lumberjack, but I just couldn't hack it,
So
they gave me the axe.
After that, I tried to be a Tailor, but I just wasn't suited for it,
mainly
because it was a sew-sew job.
Next, I tried working in a Muffler Factory, but that was too exhausting.
Then, I tried to be a Chef - figured it would add a little spice to my
Life,
but I just didn't have the thyme.
I attempted to be a Deli Worker, but any way I sliced it I couldn't cut
the
mustard.
My best job was a Musician, but eventually I found I wasn't noteworthy.
I studied a long time to become a Doctor, but I didn't have any
patience.
Next, was a job in a Shoe Factory. I tried but I just didn't fit in.
I became a Professional Fisherman, but discovered that I couldn't live
on my
net income.
I managed to get a good job working for a Pool Maintenance Company, but
the
work was just too draining.
So then I got a job in a Workout Center , but they said I wasn't fit for
the
job.
After many years of trying to find steady work, I finally got a job as a
Historian - until I realized there was no future in it.
My last job was working in Starbucks, but I eventually quit because it
Was
always the same old grind.
So, I tried Retirement and, you know what? I'M PERFECT FOR THE JOB!
--
=EF=CF=EF=AB,=B8=B8, =BB=EF=CF=EF=AB,=B8=B8, =BB=EF=CF=EF=AB,=B8=B8,
=BB=EF=CF=EF=AB,=B8=B8, =BB=EF=CF=EF=AB,=B8=B8, =BB=EF=CF=EF=AB=B8=B8,
=BB=EF=CF=EF=AB,=B8=B8, =BB=EF=CF=EF=AB
INBOX: Email
_____
HYPERLINK
=ht
comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to
millions
of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
--
15/11/2006
15:47
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
16/11/2006
15:51
Message 13
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Of interest to Europa builders contemplating a JABIRU engine..
HomebuiltHELP was invited to film a DVD of the recent Jabiru Engine
Installation Seminar/workshop earlier this month at JabirUSA in
Tenessee.. It is now finished and available for viewing. The 2 day
seminar was compressed into 2.5 hrs of the 'important' stuff... This
was a fun assignment! Note: the workshop used Zenith metal aircraft -
so beware the comparisons are not identical!
Details are available at http://homebuilthelp.com/JabiruSeminar.htm
Thanks!
Message 14
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In a message dated 17/11/2006 13:01:36 GMT Standard Time,
svendenboer@quicknet.nl writes:
I tried this path as well, comment from Andy was; "If I had one as a ceiling
fan, I would wear a helmet at home".
I switched to the Kremen SR3000 and I like it a lot.
Cheers
Andy is far too polite / diplomatic......I think you will find it was me who
made that comment!
Cheers,
Nev.
Message 15
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I heard that there was a case here in Canada where a Lancair was written off
after an emergency landing without his Ivoprop.
Karl
>From: NevEyre@aol.com
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ivoprop
>Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:24:38 EST
>
>
>In a message dated 17/11/2006 13:01:36 GMT Standard Time,
>svendenboer@quicknet.nl writes:
>
>
>I tried this path as well, comment from Andy was; "If I had one as a
>ceiling
>
>fan, I would wear a helmet at home".
>I switched to the Kremen SR3000 and I like it a lot.
>
>Cheers
>
>
>Andy is far too polite / diplomatic......I think you will find it was me
>who
>made that comment!
>Cheers,
>Nev.
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