---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/20/06: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:10 AM - Why? [Please Read] (Matt Dralle) 1. 03:14 AM - Re: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :) (Graham Singleton) 2. 03:29 AM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (Raimo Toivio) 3. 03:45 AM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (Gilles Thesee) 4. 05:54 AM - Re: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :) (Jack Hilditch) 5. 07:19 AM - Re: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :) (EuropaXSA276@aol.com) 6. 07:38 AM - Re: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :) (Graham Singleton) 7. 11:10 AM - Re: FW: Was Re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit for purpose Gills slots in top cowl" (Terry Seaver (terrys)) 8. 12:04 PM - FW: Was - Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now &quo (josok) 9. 12:19 PM - Re: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :) (Fred Klein) 10. 12:53 PM - Re: Oil cooler thermostat (Raimo Toivio) 11. 12:56 PM - engine extras like thermostat, w-o exchanger and el.water heater (Raimo Toivio) 12. 05:46 PM - Re: Help Needed (SPurpura@aol.com) 13. 10:29 PM - Re: FW: Was - Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now &quo (ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk) 14. 10:35 PM - Re: FW: Was Re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit for purpose Gills slots in top cowl" (ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk) 15. 10:39 PM - Re: FW: Was Re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit for purpose Gills slots in top cowl" (William Mills) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:58 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Why? [Please Read] Dear Listers, Each year I like to explain why I have a Fund Raiser and also take the opportunity to express why I think the List Services here provide a superior experience over the commercial equivalents. I use the List Fund Raiser each year to offset the costs involved with running a high performance email list site such as this one. With the annual support from the List members through the PBS-like Fund Raiser, I have found I can run the entire site without having to inflect any of the members with those annoying banner ads flashing up all the time trying to sell little-blue-pills or other garbage nobody wants or needs. From the comments I've received over the years regarding the Lists, the great majority of the members really appreciate the non-commercialism of my List systems and don't mind my 'go-team-go' banter once a year during November to encourage members to support the Lists. 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List Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:41 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :) Jeff agree it's best to get all the filler on at the first pass but then sand to a template of the L Edge, it needs to be accurate to a couple of thou or you may well have a nasty stall. It's very easy to knock off the sharp LE radius even with unbacked abrasive paper. The position of the center of the radius is critical too. Believe me, the stall can be quite benign but it can also be vicious. You need the CAD coordinates of the section and Turbocad or similar. Autocad does it of course but that can be Xpensive. I don't have the CAD any more but someone has. Kingsley old mate? Graham JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > Hi Brian, > I just put it on thick, sometimes using my fingers... gloved of > course. Let your large sanding block with 80 grit in diagonal motion > one way, then back the other take it back down to the shape of the > leading edge. Get with anyone local thats built a glass plane. I did > with a local long EZ builder and his advice or on hands experience was > priceless. > Regards, > Jeff > A258 Gold Rush @ 55 hours > > > On Nov 19, 2006, at 4:14 PM, EuropaXSA276@aol.com wrote: > > To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... > > Would anyone like to share a helpful hint on applying filler > smoothly to a leading edge? The Anti Servo Tab is giving me fits > today.... > > Thanks in advance. > > Brian Skelly > Europa XS TriGear #A276 > North Texas USA > You can see my build photos at: > http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS > * > > > www.aeroelectric.com > www.buildersbooks.com > www.kitlog.com > www.homebuilthelp.com > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > > > * > > > size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier"> > Builder's Bookstore > HomebuiltHELP > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:29:08 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat Shit happens.... I am sorry about your Mazda. Are you SURE "they" have changed the cooling liquid never ever? Did not you get any warnings before damage?! After that, did you leave the thermostat out of your car = uninstalled = eliminating it happens never again?! The safest way is to NOT limit your cooling system by the help of thermostats or flaps. But if you still like to do it, which way is safer?! If the thermostat is jammed in closed-position, you should notice it before take-off. I think it is a normal practise to check engine temp is normal and it stays there before take off. And when driving car, many people stop their car when temp gauge is coming close to red...before damage. One fact: many "extras" are some kind of risk also. (Flying) life is full of alternatives. One has to make best choice suitable just for him. The water thermostat is one of my choosing... Regards, Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Housman To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 5:24 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat Well, since you asked.. I recently had to replace the thermostat in my 1995 Mazda Miata (OK, that is a trifle older than 10 years). Since the thing failed CLOSED I also had to replace the radiator which burst from the pressure built up when the engine overheated (which implies that the pressure relief feature of the radiator cap also did not work as intended). The car has been maintained per Mazda recommendations. As for failing in the open position, consider that it normally cycles with engine temperature and therefore can jam in either the open or closed position. Best regards, Rob Housman A070 Airframe complete Irvine, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:39 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat Vaughn, I cannot be absolutely sure but NORMALLY thermostat design itself leaves it fully open in failure situation. Who knows ANY broken thermostat in cars (younger than 10-20 years)? Problems may occur if the coolant liquid is NEVER changed. In cars most people never do it IMHO. Just like brake fluid, it should be changed regularly (let=B4s say once a 1-3 year to remove moisture and small obstackles etc). May I suggest you to go some car spare shop, keep it on your hand and look at it carefully? Regards, Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Europa List To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 4:57 PM Subject: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat I would be very inclined to go with a water thermostat, but I have one question. If it fails, does it fail closed or open? Vaughn href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.comhref="http://w ww.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.comhref="http://www.kitlog.com" >www.kitlog.comhref="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.co mhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matro n -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the Contribution link below to find out more about this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by: * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com * Aeroware Enterprises www.kitlog.com * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com List Contribution Web Site --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Europa-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:20 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat Raimo, > The safest way is to NOT limit your cooling > system by the help of thermostats or flaps. If you have engineering or research data to support this statement, would you mind expanding on it? Thanks, Regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:13 AM PST US From: "Jack Hilditch" Subject: RE: Europa-List: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :) Composite racing sailboat builders use a technique that produces a fair surface, without bumps or valleys, while minimizing weight or extra filler. They screed the filler/resin mix onto the surface using a small-toothed, serrated plastic trowel (the same kind used to apply ceramic tile cement to walls). After it cures they use a 'long board' to sand it down. The 'long board' is not a fixed size. It can be 2" x 24" , 4" x 48" or any other size, depending on the surface area to be sanded. Most of them are made up in the shop using a piece of planking with a couple of hand made handles screwed to it and the sand paper glued or clamped to that. The long board rasps off the high areas, but leaves the valleys clearly identified by the serrated 'stripes' of resin/filler. On the next pass you only need apply the mix to areas that remain 'striped'. It saves work because the actual surface area to be sanded is reduced to the high points or 'lands' left by the serrated trowel rather than a raised patch left by a smooth trowel. It also saves on expensive resin. You get an additional bonus using the technique in that the serrations also leave a greater surface area, and irregular surface, for the next coat to bind with or key to. Hope this helps. I spent plenty of time working on racing sailboats in the US and UK so I know the technique works with resins from both sides of 'the pond'. Hope this helps. Regards, Jack Hilditch _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JEFF ROBERTS Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 9:49 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :) Hi Brian, I just put it on thick, sometimes using my fingers... gloved of course. Let your large sanding block with 80 grit in diagonal motion one way, then back the other take it back down to the shape of the leading edge. Get with anyone local thats built a glass plane. I did with a local long EZ builder and his advice or on hands experience was priceless. Regards, Jeff A258 Gold Rush @ 55 hours On Nov 19, 2006, at 4:14 PM, EuropaXSA276@aol.com wrote: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... Would anyone like to share a helpful hint on applying filler smoothly to a leading edge? The Anti Servo Tab is giving me fits today.... Thanks in advance. Brian Skelly Europa XS TriGear #A276 North Texas USA You can see my build photos at: http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.kitlog.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:59 AM PST US From: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :) This is a very interesting technique Jack. I am assuming that a flat trowel is used on the second pass to fill the valleys? Brian Skelly Europa XS TriGear #A276 North Texas USA You can see my build photos at: http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:13 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :) Jack This does work but it is vital to be certain that the resin/microballoon mix is identical otherwise you will get hard and soft stripes, I got that tea shirt once! It would be good with Superfil. Graham Jack Hilditch wrote: > Composite racing sailboat builders use a technique that produces a > fair surface, without bumps or valleys, while minimizing weight or > extra filler. They screed the filler/resin mix onto the surface using > a small-toothed, serrated plastic trowel (the same kind used to apply > ceramic tile cement to walls). After it cures they use a long board > to sand it down. The long board is not a fixed size. It can be 2 x > 24 , 4 x 48 or any other size, depending on the surface area to be > sanded. Most of them are made up in the shop using a piece of planking > with a couple of hand made handles screwed to it and the sand paper > glued or clamped to that. The long board rasps off the high areas, but > leaves the valleys clearly identified by the serrated stripes of > resin/filler. On the next pass you only need apply the mix to areas > that remain striped. It saves work because the actual surface area > to be sanded is reduced to the high points or lands left by the > serrated trowel rather than a raised patch left by a smooth trowel. It > also saves on expensive resin. You get an additional bonus using the > technique in that the serrations also leave a greater surface area, > and irregular surface, for the next coat to bind with or key to. Hope > this helps. I spent plenty of time working on racing sailboats in the > US and UK so I know the technique works with resins from both sides of > the pond. Hope this helps. > > Regards, > > Jack Hilditch > >* >* > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:28 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: FW: Was re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit for purpose Gills slots in top cowl" From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" Hi William, We do not have the factory 912S shroud. The baffle in the rear and closing off most of the gills is in lieu of the factory shroud. It is not obvious to me that the gills are necessary or helpful for cooling the regulator. Although we checked the temps in the top of the cowl, between the carbs, we didn't check the temps at the regulator. That might be an interesting experiment. Regards, Terry Seaver -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Mills Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 12:45 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Was re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit for purpose Gills slots in top cowl" --> Terry, Have you got the 912S shroud fitted to your engine, which takes cold air from behind the prop and forces it down through the cylinder fins? Assuming you have, does your ali baffle across the foot wells still aid general under cowl cooling? All, If the gills are blanked off, has anyone found an alternative location for the regulator to keep it in cool air? Regards, William ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:01 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: FW: Was - Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now &quo From: "josok" Hi All, This one i got from Nev, who likes to install the regulator, the TCU, and the servo in a box on the P1 footwell, to be fed with cool air via a scat tube from the air-intake box or from the front of the radiators. And will be my setup. If i got it wrong i will be corrected i guesss Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :) From: Fred Klein Jack, As I visualize this technique, I take it that the strokes of the serrated screed are chordwise (rather than spanwise) in order to facilitate the maintaining of the airfoil. Please confirm. Fred A194 > Jack Hilditch wrote: > >> Composite racing sailboat builders use a technique that produces a >> fair surface, without bumps or valleys, while minimizing weight or >> extra filler. They screed the filler/resin mix onto the surface using >> a small-toothed, serrated plastic trowel (the same kind used to apply >> ceramic tile cement to walls). ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:08 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat Well Gilles, I have nothing but just common sense. Keep it simple is a beautiful principle also for safety. If Robs Mazda would not have thermostat, it would not be broken also. If you have nothing (to limit air flow by flaps or water flow by thermostat), they cannot be broken also. Most people fly happily w their Rotaxes w/o any system to restrict cooling air or water flow, am I right? Some people - like me - wanna still have those benefits you get when purposely restrict cooling, when necessary. Safety is not the factor to use thermostat /flaps. Your convenience, engine health, pollution and fuel consumption are. After this message I will send an other message attached some pics about thermostat, water-oil exchanger and an electric heater for water. Hope this helps, Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gilles Thesee" Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 1:44 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil cooler thermostat > > Raimo, > > If you have engineering or research data to support this statement, > would you mind expanding on it? > > Thanks, > Regards, > Gilles > http://contrails.free.fr > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:52 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Europa-List: engine extras like thermostat, w-o exchanger and el.water heater If somebody is intressed: #1012 water-oil exchanger #1013 water thermostat (middle) and electric heater for water (right side) #1014 water heated carburrettor, a carburrettor bowl for overflow situation and a stand for a microswitch which is a part of "poor man=B4s gear-upp warning system" Raimo #417 "Tuuli-Ilmatar" ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:13 PM PST US From: SPurpura@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Help Needed You want a brass 1/8" mpt compression coupling,avail at any Home Depot. You may need to open the hole for the probe though. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:15 PM PST US From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk Subject: RE: Europa-List: FW: Was - Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now &quo Hi! Jos/all I haven't the figures to hand but I know there is a big through put of luke warm air from the used intercooler air and I believe it will be beneficial to hose it across and down the back of the engine and where my P1 foot well will have the TCU and Regulator fitted, which could also be boxed, with expelled air jetted at the alternator and ignition system downwards. This IMHO will all encourage the general downward flow of cooling air promoted by high pressure in the cowl top. This was undoubtedly the successful way I cooled the Jabiru Six. Nevilles thoughts below certainly reinforce my experiences to date. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG >-- Original Message -- >Subject: Europa-List: FW: Was - Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now &quo >From: "josok" >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:02:44 +0200 >To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > >Hi All, > >This one i got from Nev, who likes to install the regulator, the TCU, and >the servo in a box on the P1 footwell, to be fed with cool air via a scat >tube from the air-intake box or from the front of the radiators. And will >be my setup. If i got it wrong i will be corrected i guesss > >Regards, > >Jos Okhuijsen > ___________________________________________________________ Tiscali Unlimited Broadband with FREE weekend calls only 12.99! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:54 PM PST US From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk Subject: RE: Europa-List: FW: Was re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit for purpose Gills slots in top cowl" Hi! Terry/all As explained my Jabiru regulator was situated on the P1 footwell and suffered no thermal stress in 600 hours without gills. My point is that if a flow of air isn't going there it won't be taking excess heat with it ! ? BTW thanks for your extensive pictures and documents provided on this topic. regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG >-- Original Message -- >Subject: RE: Europa-List: FW: Was re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit >for purpose Gills slots in top cowl" >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:08:35 -0800 >From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" >To: > > > >Hi William, > >We do not have the factory 912S shroud. The baffle in the rear and >closing off most of the gills is in lieu of the factory shroud. > >It is not obvious to me that the gills are necessary or helpful for >cooling the regulator. Although we checked the temps in the top of the >cowl, between the carbs, we didn't check the temps at the regulator. >That might be an interesting experiment. > >Regards, >Terry Seaver > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William >Mills >Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 12:45 AM >To: Europa Forum >Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Was re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now >"fit for purpose Gills slots in top cowl" > >--> > >Terry, Have you got the 912S shroud fitted to your engine, which takes >cold air from behind the prop and forces it down through the cylinder >fins? >Assuming you have, does your ali baffle across the foot wells still aid >general under cowl cooling? > >All, If the gills are blanked off, has anyone found an alternative >location for the regulator to keep it in cool air? > >Regards, > >William > ___________________________________________________________ Tiscali Unlimited Broadband with FREE weekend calls only 12.99! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:21 PM PST US From: "William Mills" Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Was re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit for purpose Gills slots in top cowl" Thanks for the reply, Terry. I intend to purchase a thermocouple or two so that I can monitor the temperature in the vicinity of the regulator with the gills open and then with them taped over, on the same day, to see what happens. If the gills appear to be effective, I will still consider blanking them off but replacing the stbd one with a small nacca inlet directed at the regulator. Regards, William ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: FW: Was re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now "fit for purpose Gills slots in top cowl" > > > Hi William, > > We do not have the factory 912S shroud. The baffle in the rear and > closing off most of the gills is in lieu of the factory shroud. > > It is not obvious to me that the gills are necessary or helpful for > cooling the regulator. Although we checked the temps in the top of the > cowl, between the carbs, we didn't check the temps at the regulator. > That might be an interesting experiment. > > Regards, > Terry Seaver > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William > Mills > Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 12:45 AM > To: Europa Forum > Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Was re:- Oil Cooler Thermostat ....now > "fit for purpose Gills slots in top cowl" > > --> > > Terry, Have you got the 912S shroud fitted to your engine, which takes > cold air from behind the prop and forces it down through the cylinder > fins? > Assuming you have, does your ali baffle across the foot wells still aid > general under cowl cooling? > > All, If the gills are blanked off, has anyone found an alternative > location for the regulator to keep it in cool air? > > Regards, > > William > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.