---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 12/17/06: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:36 AM - Re: Lockwood 9xx Class (rlborger) 2. 05:54 AM - Re: Vne Speed / Wing Load Test (UVTReith@aol.com) 3. 06:38 AM - Re: Lockwood 9xx Class (Gilles Thesee) 4. 07:44 AM - Re: Vne Speed / Wing Load Test (William Daniell) 5. 09:49 AM - Re: Vne Speed / Wing Load Test (NevEyre@aol.com) 6. 04:27 PM - Ground Plane (AlStills) 7. 04:52 PM - Re: Ground Plane (Graham Singleton) 8. 05:50 PM - Re: Ground Plane (SPurpura@aol.com) 9. 06:45 PM - Re: Ground Plane (Michael Grass) 10. 07:40 PM - Re: Ground Plane (jimpuglise@comcast.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Lockwood 9xx Class From: rlborger Gilles, Funny you should ask... I've gone back through my notes and the answer is unclear. I think I remember the correct answer, but I do not want to provide anymore incorrect information on the subject of Rotax engines. Let me confirm the answer on Monday and I'll post it as soon as I can. BTW, if you want to see one of the possible consequences of someone turning your prop backwards, go to: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php? set_albumName=album191&id=DSCN5102&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&in clude=view_photo.php Or, if that URL becomes scrambled in the transmission, go to: http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL Click on the Lockwood School album Click on Pic #14 > Has your engine ever been turned backwards (A BIG NO-NO)? How can you > tell if it has and what should you do about it? What happens if it > has been turned backwards and you don't do the right thing? Clue: > It's ugly and expensive. > Bob, Please, how do you tell if it has ? Thanks, Regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr More pics will be posted today (2006 12 17) and some additional text added this evening. Good building and great flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (85%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear complete. Working in - 24 Instrument Panel, 25 Electrical, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived. Preparing for ROTAX 914 installation. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:19 AM PST US From: UVTReith@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vne Speed / Wing Load Test Wing Load Test We use the jacks with a wooden bar and something soft on top to spread the load, when putting the cement bags (25 kg each) on the wings. Than we lower the jacks, so that the wings are free and measure the movement of the wing tips. Lift up the jacks again for supporting, put more load on the wings, lower the jacks again and so on. Bruno Reith / Mono 379 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:12 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Lockwood 9xx Class > Let me confirm the answer on Monday and I'll post it as soon as I can. > > BTW, if you want to see one of the possible consequences of someone > turning your prop backwards, Bob, Thank you for responding. Knowing how to tell if the prop has been turned backwards is important, as anyone can turn it while we're away from the hangar. We put a sign on the prop "do not turn backwards". Great pictures on your gallery. Regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:20 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Vne Speed / Wing Load Test How do you support the fuselage in the middle? Will _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of UVTReith@aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 08:54 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vne Speed / Wing Load Test Wing Load Test We use the jacks with a wooden bar and something soft on top to spread the load, when putting the cement bags (25 kg each) on the wings. Than we lower the jacks, so that the wings are free and measure the movement of the wing tips. Lift up the jacks again for supporting, put more load on the wings, lower the jacks again and so on. Bruno Reith / Mono 379 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:28 AM PST US From: NevEyre@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vne Speed / Wing Load Test Hi All, Casting my memory back some ten years ago.... to the testing we [Europa] did on the XS wings.... went something like this... First we built a steel jig to hold a single wing on, so that it was inverted, and tilted leading edge down , to simulate it flying normal way up / leading edge up [ worst case load is positive angle of attack, I forget the exact angle,] wing was fixed with the normal [ at that time] non pip pin spar pins, and the rigid drag pin sockets....... steel weights [10Kg & 5Kg] were then placed on the lower skin, with a carpet underlay to give a non slip surface, to a pre-determined plan to ultimately go past something like 12G. We supported the wing with a scafold tower arrangement whilst we were adding to the weights, going up in increments of ''G's'', taking away the support at each stage to measure deflection and twist, so rather than the required time [for the P.F.A.] unsupported of about 3 seconds, the wing was under load each time for probably a couple of minutes.......It got to something like 7G [at 1370 lbs AUW] the first try, before the tang of the spar ''walked off'' the spar pin and dumped the 3000 or so lbs of weight onto my workshop floor. [Hence my previous posting to the forum about leaving off the pip pin style spar pin in the port seatback bush?] Wing / spar undamaged, but rib/ lift & drag pin plates ripped. It was then decided to test wings in pairs, fitted to a fuselage, so a fuselage was set up on a pedestal, supported by the seat pan / seatback / baggage bay areas, in the same nose down / inverted stance. The height was set to allow spanwise deflection of the wings [ so the door sills were about 6' off the ground ] A strap was fitted to the port spar, in an attempt to contain the ''walking'' of the spars aft, and the swivel drag sockets and the ''tie bar'' were added. Loading [both wings together] went as planned, we were watching the spars through access holes cut in the fuselage, the wings passed the test[ forget the figure, something like 9.8] but it was obvious the spar strap was under stress. At this time, Francis Donaldson, and John Tempest [AKA Billy Bunter] of the P.F.A. wanted to see another test [I am still convinced for their own curiousity, rather than any truly technical reason] So we sourced and fitted the pip pins [as supplied in the XS kit nowadays] and did the test again. No problems, the pip pins were containing the aft movement of the spar tang. We kept going with the test, again, I can't recall the exact figure we went to, past 11G, I recall , when the wood core in the spar [between the two pin bushings] ruptured, and let the rovings in the spars twist over [ top cap to the bottom / bottom to the top] and something like 7000 lbs went on the floor this time. The spar cap rovings returned to their original positions, no visible damage, just the core was ruptured. So.... we picked up the weights, had a coffee or two, and started to reload the wings, and got to more than 3G before the spar cap rovings swapped place again.... so you can break the wing at + 12G, unload and it will return to position, and as long as you keep below 3G, fly yourself home. From memory, we did 3 sets of wings in during testing,[ P.F.A. kept moving the ''goal posts''.] All tests gave similar results. Years later, I managed to catch Francis off guard, asking what R.V. had to do to clear the RV10 to fly in the U.K ? His answer? Supply the paperwork to support the stress calculations... and have a couple of them flying....... when I enquired why Europa had to test 3 sets of XS wings, and dance through even more silly tests to get the MG wings cleared for over here [ when there were two allready flying in the U.S.A.] He went an embarrasing shade of red.... no answer then ? [The MG wings have been tested on the same single wing test rig [ beefed up, as we broke the rig itself the first time] to a much higher G load than the XS wings. You will not break either sets of wings. . re the VNE testing, Pete Clark did that, very carefully, increasing in small increments, at high altitude with a parachute..... well past the limit... but don't push YOUR luck in YOUR plane? Cheers, Nev. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:46 PM PST US From: "AlStills" Subject: Europa-List: Ground Plane Hi all, I've been having a little problem with ATC reading my transponder all the time. I suspect a bit of shadowing.. I have the 2 1/2"-3" transponder antenna mounted upside down on a shelf on the rear corner of the baggage bay. I have a 6" steel ground plane mounted to the antenna. What size ground plane have others used successfully and where is your antenna mounted. ATC reads me better out of KGEU with a feed from Luke AFB while KDVT (where I'm hangered) gets their feed from Phoenix Sky Harbor airport. By far KDVT is worse than KGEU. I know there is difference in the feed from the different radars but need to get rid of most of the shadowing if possible. Sure would make me more presentable to the guys at KDVT. (One of the busiest GA ariports in the nation) Have about 8 hrs on the plane now and the grin is still in place. Gets even bigger the more I fly! Al Stills N625AZ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:48 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ground Plane Al the best place might be up on the roof, upside down. Nothing much to shadow it up there? Your ground plane sounds OK but a halfwave dipole is better, Bob Archer makes a heat one. Gives a flatter distribution pattern Graham AlStills wrote: > >Hi all, >I've been having a little problem with ATC reading my transponder all the >time. I suspect a bit of shadowing.. I have the 2 1/2"-3" transponder >antenna mounted >upside down on a shelf on the rear corner of the baggage bay. I have a 6" >steel ground plane mounted to the antenna. What size ground plane have >others used > >Al Stills >N625AZ > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:16 PM PST US From: SPurpura@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ground Plane TRY IT WITHOUT THE GROND PLANE,MY BOB ARCER HAS NONE. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:03 PM PST US From: "Michael Grass" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ground Plane Very bad advise!!! The Bob Archer Antenna is a "dipole" antenna and is similar in design as your Com antenna if built like suggested in the Europa manual. The 2 1/2 inch antenna is a monopole antenna and needs a ground plane of either 51/2 inch diameter or at least 27 inch or greater. Everything between or smaller is bad. I would be concerned about all metal within the close proximity of the antenna. I am thinking of fuel lines, flap actuator, hard point out of metal in the fuselage etc.. You should be fine if you keep any metal pieces (could be even a length of your AWG24 wire) of the size of 21/2 inches or greater at least 6 inches away. The ideal ground plane is any metal circular in shape with 5 1/2 inch diameter and the monopole antenna sticking through the hole and points downwards. You have to have a very low resistance between the outer part of your BNC connector and the ground plane. Hope that helps. Michael Grass A266 Trigear Detroit Michigan ----- Original Message ----- From: SPurpura@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 8:48 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ground Plane TRY IT WITHOUT THE GROND PLANE,MY BOB ARCER HAS NONE. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:00 PM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ground Plane Al- I have mine installed but have not used it yet. I think you are going to be much better off with a vertical dipole in the Europa than a ground plane. The Archer antenna the others spoke about is a vertical dipole. Mine is fastened to a piece of balsa wood that is fitted to the contour of the fuselage on the port side as far aft as possible. It is just about opposite the inspection port in the root of the rudder. I'll let you know how it works in a year or so. Jim Puglise - A-283 -------------- Original message -------------- From: "AlStills" > > Hi all, > I've been having a little problem with ATC reading my transponder all the > time. I suspect a bit of shadowing.. I have the 2 1/2"-3" transponder > antenna mounted > upside down on a shelf on the rear corner of the baggage bay. I have a 6" > steel ground plane mounted to the antenna. What size ground plane have > others used > successfully and where is your antenna mounted. ATC reads me better out of > KGEU with a feed from Luke AFB while KDVT (where I'm hangered) gets their > feed > from Phoenix Sky Harbor airport. By far KDVT is worse than KGEU. I know > there is difference in the feed from the different radars but need to get > rid of most of the > shadowing if possible. Sure would make me more presentable to the guys at > KDVT. (One of the busiest GA ariports in the nation) > Have about 8 hrs on the plane now and the grin is still in place. Gets even > bigger the more I fly! > > Al Stills > N625AZ > > > > > >
Al-
 
I have mine installed but have not used it yet.  I think you are going to be much better off with a vertical dipole in the Europa than a ground plane.  The Archer antenna the others spoke about is a vertical dipole.  Mine is fastened to a piece of balsa wood that is fitted to the contour of the fuselage on the port side as far aft as possible.  It is just about opposite the inspection port in the root of the rudder.  I'll let you know how it works in a year or so.
 
Jim Puglise - A-283 
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "AlStills" <astills@cox.net>

> --> Europa-List message posted by: "AlStills"
>
> Hi all,
> I've been having a little problem with ATC reading my transponder all the
> time. I suspect a bit of shadowing.. I have the 2 1/2"-3" transponder
> antenna mounted
> upside down on a shelf on the rear corner of the baggage bay. I have a 6"
> steel ground plane mounted to the antenna. What size ground plane have
> others used
> successfully and where is your antenna mounted. ATC reads me better out of
> KGEU with a feed from Luke AFB while KDVT (where I'm hangered) gets their
> feed
> from Phoenix Sky Harbor airport. By far KDVT is worse than KGEU. I know
> there is difference in the feed from the different radars but n eed to R>>
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