Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:34 AM - Airmaster on Jabiru (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu)
2. 09:00 AM - Re: Airmaster on Jabiru (AlStills)
3. 10:05 AM - Re: Airmaster on Jabiru (R.C.Harrison)
4. 12:15 PM - Re: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
5. 01:08 PM - 914 fuel pumps info share ()
6. 01:59 PM - Re: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale (ivor.phillips)
7. 04:52 PM - Re: Airmaster on Jabiru (Graham Singleton)
Message 1
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Subject: | Airmaster on Jabiru |
At least on a rotax, the circular phase disposition of the prop hub is a
non-issue. What are the possible issues
that might dictate a specific alignment?
Ira N224XS
Message 2
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Subject: | Airmaster on Jabiru |
Ira,
I have made some calls on this issue and it seems it is a non-issue on a 6
cyl with a 3 blade prop. A four cyl engine or a 2 blade is a different
matter, but thats not
what I have. Thanks to all who replied
Al Stills
N625Az
====
Message 3
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Subject: | Airmaster on Jabiru |
Hi! Ira
There is possibility of conflicting resonance between the position of
the blades and the power strokes of the engine which can be considerably
reduced with the rotational alignment specifically arranged in relation
to the power strokes. A three blade prop requires a different alignment
to a two blade prop and I believe that a four cylinder engine compared
to a six cylinder needs a different consideration too. Sorry I can't
help further but I've trawled through all my files to no avail. I know I
once referenced the problem with MT Propellers and they made a
definitive reply which I used to post on to a forum be it the Europa
Forum or the Jabiru one.
Regards
Bob Harrison
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Sent: 09 January 2007 16:29
Subject: Europa-List: Airmaster on Jabiru
At least on a rotax, the circular phase disposition of the prop hub is a
non-issue. What are the possible issues
that might dictate a specific alignment?
Ira N224XS
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale |
<<they recovered it by towing it the wrong way>>
That may have been a Katana.
It had the flaps down when it was towed the wrong way, which removed the
flaps!
I guess the Classic would float until such time as the hollowed out foam
cores had flooded. The weight of the engine would probably result in the a/c
floating nose down with the tail out of the water; so no buoyancy
contribution from that.
A Cessna 152 takes 17 minutes to sink (i.e. for all of the trapped air to
escape).
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 4:45 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale
>
> Hi! Bob
> I'd expect the Classic foam wings to float but no chance of the XS
> floating!
> There was one once floated that ditched off Alderney until they
> recovered it by towing it the wrong way then had to tow it the opposite
> way (can't remember which way but I think it was successfully towed
> forwards?) perhaps someone can confirm ? It could be a useful bit of
> information to have stored one day !
> Regards
> Bob Harrison
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
> Hitchcock
> Sent: 07 January 2007 09:50
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale
>
> <robert.hitchcock@virgin.net>
>
> It definitely does float then? Two quality life-jackets, no life
> raft..............
>
>
> Regards
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 5:16 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale
>
>
>> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>>
>> RV7 ?
>> Would it be possible to cross the Atlantic or the Pacific with an RV7
> and
>> would it float if the fan stopped? Cost of gas when Putin has it all?
>> Graham
>>
>> Garry wrote:
>>
>>> Steve,
>>> Jim Nelson, Jim Brown, Marvin Alvarez, myself and many other early
> Europa
>>> builders have chosen to go with Vans RV-7's. Contact me off list for
>
>>> details. I still have my Europa and still love it though.
>>> Garry Stout
>>> 914 Trigear
>>>
>>>*
>>>*
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | 914 fuel pumps info share |
I will share with group my boring findings about 914 fuel pumps.
I am using Europas recommended schematic, only difference is I am using
Andair 375 Gasculators instead of supplied filters.
For testing I added supplied clear filters between gasculator and pump
input, and a clear automotive filter at the output of fuel system. I used
my aux fuel tank with 7.5 gallons of filtered 100LL.
Info below not in any specific order:
****I ran pumps 1 at a time for 2 hours each (no suction head), the output
filter was black as the fuel hoses! The gasculators and filters between
gasculator and input of pumps were clean of the black. The output filter
was a automotive filter that was clear with a pleated orangish paper
looking element. I called Kerry at Lockwood and he thought it may be
Molykote used in pump assembly?? Note there is a finger filter in the
intake of each 914 fuel pump, Lockwood suggests cleaning annual or every
100 hours. Probably a good deal not running P2 along with P1 at first so
as not not put any black into P2 sock filter.
****P1 is primary pump, G1 is primary gasculator.
Fuel pumps are semi transparent to flow in proper direction. On the
recommended series with bypass schematic, if P2 is on, it flows ~80% from
G2 and about 20% from G1! If I stall P1, and turn off, then turn on P2, G2
flows ~98% and G1 bout 2%, I guess there is a 1 way inside pump and almost
stalling seats it a bit harder? This finding makes me want to keep P1 as
primary pump, as it will only draw from G1, thus keep G2 clean for a
second chance with max duration before it too clogs.
****I had concern about ability of pumps to meet my dry suction head needs
in worst case which is 10 or so inches. Pulling a 40" dry suction head is
not a problem on 1 pump, as long as you don't restrict the output and
develop too much pressure. If the fuel pressure regulator allows passage
of air without much restriction, I am a happy guy. My fuel lines only
easily allowed 40" test.
****I am going to install a aux fuel tank vent via a 1 way valve. I have a
diaphragm style 1 way PVDF body / Viton seal Mcmaster PN6079T59 that
requires less than 1 pound crack. I also have a ball checkvalve nylon with
SS ball that requires 1 pound of crack pressure. McMaster PN47245K37,
mouth blow is easy with diaphragm, hard with ball.
It is not a true test of letting in air, but a much more severe test to
put one of these check valves in series with pick up line. You see the 1
way will see full flow where the true tank vent will only see flow of fuel
used, and it will be flowing air not fuel. Anyway results:
Ball checkvalve 1 pump will dry suction head ~ 20" max
Ball checkvalve 2 pumps will dry suction head 40" in about 9 seconds
Diaphragm checkvalve 1 pump will dry suction head 40"
Diaphragm checkvalve 2 pumps will dry suction head 40" in about 3 seconds
Again this is with little backpressure on output of pump, any pressure
will lower dry suction head.
With 1 pump and ball checkvalve motor was laboring a bit at both 20" and
once a suction was developed 40" labor even more, 2 pumps helped labor,
but with Daiphragm checkvalve, little labor.
This was a test of ability to pull vent from possible lower cabin air. I
will use a Diaphragm 1 way, with a Wicks Aircraft 1 way in series which is
screened and has a free ball in it (attitude dependent). Very little
restriction with both.
****As mentioned above 2 pumps pull a higher dry suction head than 1.
Seemed in a non scientific test of slowing pumps by restricting output, 2
pumps perhaps increase pressure by ~10%. Again not too scientific, but
there is not much of a change. Flow by observing stream with no output
restriction seems same P1, or P2 or P1+P2. Perhaps with output demanding
pressure, 2 pumps may be slight better, but I don't think much. Dry
difference with 2 pumps is pretty dramatic, and with a restriction on
output when testing dry suction head 2 pumps are again dramatic better
(Finger over output restricting, perhaps 25% of max pressure
restriction?).
****I was a bit surprised to see plenty of bubbling going in 2 filters
between the Gasculators and input to system and the one on the output of
system. I was not able to get air out of filters, it just bubbles happily
along, does not seem to cause a problem, very steady stream at output
going back to tank with or without making system develop pressure. There
was no leaks causing air injestion in my system. If I opened a sump, even
just a tiny bit on gasculator and allow air injestion, the filters go
foamy right now.
****In the Europa schematic, if you sump either gasculator, it will
introduce air to either of the pumps or both if pump/s are running.
****It seems that P1 is just a bit happier pulling a dry suction head
compared to P2, P2 does have a 1 way and a slight longer plumbing run with
2 90 degree fittings.
****If voltage is up because of charging system compared to below, all
should work even better.
****I had pumps run at least 2 hours before I did testing so they should
have been broken in, Manual states 20% increase (I forget if it was flow
or pressure) after break in
Conclusion
Will use P1 as primary
Will use aux vent as described
I highly recommend running pumps with filters to clean and break in. I for
1 don't want Black Europa Snot in my FlowScan transducers, fuel pressure
regulator, carbs, or back into tank to go back through gasculator fine
filters.
Will clean fuel pump socks 100 hrs or annual. Note that these filters just
pull out, but can't get a replacement, so be careful.
Ron Parigoris
Testing 01-07-2007
Used a 12 volt 12 amp Gel Cell Battery, ~ 12.6V static, 1 pump loaded to
almost stall ~12.2V and 2 pumps loaded to almost stall ~11.8V
Filled aux 10 gallon tank with 7.5 gallons of 100LL
Message 6
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Subject: | 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale |
It was a Grob Motor glider!
http://www.sarangan.org/europa_forum/1996-09/msg00139.html
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan & Ami
McFadyean
Sent: 09 January 2007 20:01
Subject: Re: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale
<ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
<<they recovered it by towing it the wrong way>>
That may have been a Katana.
It had the flaps down when it was towed the wrong way, which removed the
flaps!
I guess the Classic would float until such time as the hollowed out foam
cores had flooded. The weight of the engine would probably result in the a/c
floating nose down with the tail out of the water; so no buoyancy
contribution from that.
A Cessna 152 takes 17 minutes to sink (i.e. for all of the trapped air to
escape).
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 4:45 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale
>
> Hi! Bob
> I'd expect the Classic foam wings to float but no chance of the XS
> floating!
> There was one once floated that ditched off Alderney until they
> recovered it by towing it the wrong way then had to tow it the opposite
> way (can't remember which way but I think it was successfully towed
> forwards?) perhaps someone can confirm ? It could be a useful bit of
> information to have stored one day !
> Regards
> Bob Harrison
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
> Hitchcock
> Sent: 07 January 2007 09:50
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale
>
> <robert.hitchcock@virgin.net>
>
> It definitely does float then? Two quality life-jackets, no life
> raft..............
>
>
> Regards
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 5:16 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale
>
>
>> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>>
>> RV7 ?
>> Would it be possible to cross the Atlantic or the Pacific with an RV7
> and
>> would it float if the fan stopped? Cost of gas when Putin has it all?
>> Graham
>>
>> Garry wrote:
>>
>>> Steve,
>>> Jim Nelson, Jim Brown, Marvin Alvarez, myself and many other early
> Europa
>>> builders have chosen to go with Vans RV-7's. Contact me off list for
>
>>> details. I still have my Europa and still love it though.
>>> Garry Stout
>>> 914 Trigear
>>>
>>>*
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Airmaster on Jabiru |
Ira
Bob's right. Resonance is the issue. MT propellers will know the answer,
they usually do a vibration analysis and they are careful experienced
people.
You need to think where the pulses from the power strokes come, then
compare that with the pulses from the airflow. Those will be caused by
the pitch angle of the thrust line plus any
R.C.Harrison wrote:
> Hi! Ira
>
> There is possibility of conflicting resonance between the position of
> the blades and the power strokes of the engine which can be
> considerably reduced with the rotational alignment specifically
> arranged in relation to the power strokes. A three blade prop requires
> a different alignment to a two blade prop and I believe that a four
> cylinder engine compared to a six cylinder needs a different
> consideration too. Sorry I cant help further but Ive trawled through
> all my files to no avail. I know I once referenced the problem with MT
> Propellers and they made a definitive reply
>
> Bob Harrison
>
> Robt.C.Harrison
>
>*
>*
>
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