---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/09/07: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:34 AM - Airmaster on Jabiru (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu) 2. 09:00 AM - Re: Airmaster on Jabiru (AlStills) 3. 10:05 AM - Re: Airmaster on Jabiru (R.C.Harrison) 4. 12:15 PM - Re: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 5. 01:08 PM - 914 fuel pumps info share () 6. 01:59 PM - Re: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale (ivor.phillips) 7. 04:52 PM - Re: Airmaster on Jabiru (Graham Singleton) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:20 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Airmaster on Jabiru From: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu At least on a rotax, the circular phase disposition of the prop hub is a non-issue. What are the possible issues that might dictate a specific alignment? Ira N224XS ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:36 AM PST US From: "AlStills" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Airmaster on Jabiru Ira, I have made some calls on this issue and it seems it is a non-issue on a 6 cyl with a 3 blade prop. A four cyl engine or a 2 blade is a different matter, but thats not what I have. Thanks to all who replied Al Stills N625Az ==== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:31 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Airmaster on Jabiru Hi! Ira There is possibility of conflicting resonance between the position of the blades and the power strokes of the engine which can be considerably reduced with the rotational alignment specifically arranged in relation to the power strokes. A three blade prop requires a different alignment to a two blade prop and I believe that a four cylinder engine compared to a six cylinder needs a different consideration too. Sorry I can't help further but I've trawled through all my files to no avail. I know I once referenced the problem with MT Propellers and they made a definitive reply which I used to post on to a forum be it the Europa Forum or the Jabiru one. Regards Bob Harrison Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu Sent: 09 January 2007 16:29 Subject: Europa-List: Airmaster on Jabiru At least on a rotax, the circular phase disposition of the prop hub is a non-issue. What are the possible issues that might dictate a specific alignment? Ira N224XS ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:39 PM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale <> That may have been a Katana. It had the flaps down when it was towed the wrong way, which removed the flaps! I guess the Classic would float until such time as the hollowed out foam cores had flooded. The weight of the engine would probably result in the a/c floating nose down with the tail out of the water; so no buoyancy contribution from that. A Cessna 152 takes 17 minutes to sink (i.e. for all of the trapped air to escape). Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "R.C.Harrison" Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale > > Hi! Bob > I'd expect the Classic foam wings to float but no chance of the XS > floating! > There was one once floated that ditched off Alderney until they > recovered it by towing it the wrong way then had to tow it the opposite > way (can't remember which way but I think it was successfully towed > forwards?) perhaps someone can confirm ? It could be a useful bit of > information to have stored one day ! > Regards > Bob Harrison > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob > Hitchcock > Sent: 07 January 2007 09:50 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale > > > > It definitely does float then? Two quality life-jackets, no life > raft.............. > > > Regards > > Bob > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Graham Singleton" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 5:16 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale > > >> >> >> RV7 ? >> Would it be possible to cross the Atlantic or the Pacific with an RV7 > and >> would it float if the fan stopped? Cost of gas when Putin has it all? >> Graham >> >> Garry wrote: >> >>> Steve, >>> Jim Nelson, Jim Brown, Marvin Alvarez, myself and many other early > Europa >>> builders have chosen to go with Vans RV-7's. Contact me off list for > >>> details. I still have my Europa and still love it though. >>> Garry Stout >>> 914 Trigear >>> >>>* >>>* >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:47 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: 914 fuel pumps info share From: I will share with group my boring findings about 914 fuel pumps. I am using Europas recommended schematic, only difference is I am using Andair 375 Gasculators instead of supplied filters. For testing I added supplied clear filters between gasculator and pump input, and a clear automotive filter at the output of fuel system. I used my aux fuel tank with 7.5 gallons of filtered 100LL. Info below not in any specific order: ****I ran pumps 1 at a time for 2 hours each (no suction head), the output filter was black as the fuel hoses! The gasculators and filters between gasculator and input of pumps were clean of the black. The output filter was a automotive filter that was clear with a pleated orangish paper looking element. I called Kerry at Lockwood and he thought it may be Molykote used in pump assembly?? Note there is a finger filter in the intake of each 914 fuel pump, Lockwood suggests cleaning annual or every 100 hours. Probably a good deal not running P2 along with P1 at first so as not not put any black into P2 sock filter. ****P1 is primary pump, G1 is primary gasculator. Fuel pumps are semi transparent to flow in proper direction. On the recommended series with bypass schematic, if P2 is on, it flows ~80% from G2 and about 20% from G1! If I stall P1, and turn off, then turn on P2, G2 flows ~98% and G1 bout 2%, I guess there is a 1 way inside pump and almost stalling seats it a bit harder? This finding makes me want to keep P1 as primary pump, as it will only draw from G1, thus keep G2 clean for a second chance with max duration before it too clogs. ****I had concern about ability of pumps to meet my dry suction head needs in worst case which is 10 or so inches. Pulling a 40" dry suction head is not a problem on 1 pump, as long as you don't restrict the output and develop too much pressure. If the fuel pressure regulator allows passage of air without much restriction, I am a happy guy. My fuel lines only easily allowed 40" test. ****I am going to install a aux fuel tank vent via a 1 way valve. I have a diaphragm style 1 way PVDF body / Viton seal Mcmaster PN6079T59 that requires less than 1 pound crack. I also have a ball checkvalve nylon with SS ball that requires 1 pound of crack pressure. McMaster PN47245K37, mouth blow is easy with diaphragm, hard with ball. It is not a true test of letting in air, but a much more severe test to put one of these check valves in series with pick up line. You see the 1 way will see full flow where the true tank vent will only see flow of fuel used, and it will be flowing air not fuel. Anyway results: Ball checkvalve 1 pump will dry suction head ~ 20" max Ball checkvalve 2 pumps will dry suction head 40" in about 9 seconds Diaphragm checkvalve 1 pump will dry suction head 40" Diaphragm checkvalve 2 pumps will dry suction head 40" in about 3 seconds Again this is with little backpressure on output of pump, any pressure will lower dry suction head. With 1 pump and ball checkvalve motor was laboring a bit at both 20" and once a suction was developed 40" labor even more, 2 pumps helped labor, but with Daiphragm checkvalve, little labor. This was a test of ability to pull vent from possible lower cabin air. I will use a Diaphragm 1 way, with a Wicks Aircraft 1 way in series which is screened and has a free ball in it (attitude dependent). Very little restriction with both. ****As mentioned above 2 pumps pull a higher dry suction head than 1. Seemed in a non scientific test of slowing pumps by restricting output, 2 pumps perhaps increase pressure by ~10%. Again not too scientific, but there is not much of a change. Flow by observing stream with no output restriction seems same P1, or P2 or P1+P2. Perhaps with output demanding pressure, 2 pumps may be slight better, but I don't think much. Dry difference with 2 pumps is pretty dramatic, and with a restriction on output when testing dry suction head 2 pumps are again dramatic better (Finger over output restricting, perhaps 25% of max pressure restriction?). ****I was a bit surprised to see plenty of bubbling going in 2 filters between the Gasculators and input to system and the one on the output of system. I was not able to get air out of filters, it just bubbles happily along, does not seem to cause a problem, very steady stream at output going back to tank with or without making system develop pressure. There was no leaks causing air injestion in my system. If I opened a sump, even just a tiny bit on gasculator and allow air injestion, the filters go foamy right now. ****In the Europa schematic, if you sump either gasculator, it will introduce air to either of the pumps or both if pump/s are running. ****It seems that P1 is just a bit happier pulling a dry suction head compared to P2, P2 does have a 1 way and a slight longer plumbing run with 2 90 degree fittings. ****If voltage is up because of charging system compared to below, all should work even better. ****I had pumps run at least 2 hours before I did testing so they should have been broken in, Manual states 20% increase (I forget if it was flow or pressure) after break in Conclusion Will use P1 as primary Will use aux vent as described I highly recommend running pumps with filters to clean and break in. I for 1 don't want Black Europa Snot in my FlowScan transducers, fuel pressure regulator, carbs, or back into tank to go back through gasculator fine filters. Will clean fuel pump socks 100 hrs or annual. Note that these filters just pull out, but can't get a replacement, so be careful. Ron Parigoris Testing 01-07-2007 Used a 12 volt 12 amp Gel Cell Battery, ~ 12.6V static, 1 pump loaded to almost stall ~12.2V and 2 pumps loaded to almost stall ~11.8V Filled aux 10 gallon tank with 7.5 gallons of 100LL ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:59:42 PM PST US From: "ivor.phillips" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale It was a Grob Motor glider! http://www.sarangan.org/europa_forum/1996-09/msg00139.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan & Ami McFadyean Sent: 09 January 2007 20:01 Subject: Re: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale <> That may have been a Katana. It had the flaps down when it was towed the wrong way, which removed the flaps! I guess the Classic would float until such time as the hollowed out foam cores had flooded. The weight of the engine would probably result in the a/c floating nose down with the tail out of the water; so no buoyancy contribution from that. A Cessna 152 takes 17 minutes to sink (i.e. for all of the trapped air to escape). Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "R.C.Harrison" Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale > > Hi! Bob > I'd expect the Classic foam wings to float but no chance of the XS > floating! > There was one once floated that ditched off Alderney until they > recovered it by towing it the wrong way then had to tow it the opposite > way (can't remember which way but I think it was successfully towed > forwards?) perhaps someone can confirm ? It could be a useful bit of > information to have stored one day ! > Regards > Bob Harrison > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob > Hitchcock > Sent: 07 January 2007 09:50 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale > > > > It definitely does float then? Two quality life-jackets, no life > raft.............. > > > Regards > > Bob > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Graham Singleton" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 5:16 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: 2002 Europa XS Mono Wheel for Sale > > >> >> >> RV7 ? >> Would it be possible to cross the Atlantic or the Pacific with an RV7 > and >> would it float if the fan stopped? Cost of gas when Putin has it all? >> Graham >> >> Garry wrote: >> >>> Steve, >>> Jim Nelson, Jim Brown, Marvin Alvarez, myself and many other early > Europa >>> builders have chosen to go with Vans RV-7's. Contact me off list for > >>> details. I still have my Europa and still love it though. >>> Garry Stout >>> 914 Trigear >>> >>>* ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:02 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Airmaster on Jabiru Ira Bob's right. Resonance is the issue. MT propellers will know the answer, they usually do a vibration analysis and they are careful experienced people. You need to think where the pulses from the power strokes come, then compare that with the pulses from the airflow. Those will be caused by the pitch angle of the thrust line plus any R.C.Harrison wrote: > Hi! Ira > > There is possibility of conflicting resonance between the position of > the blades and the power strokes of the engine which can be > considerably reduced with the rotational alignment specifically > arranged in relation to the power strokes. A three blade prop requires > a different alignment to a two blade prop and I believe that a four > cylinder engine compared to a six cylinder needs a different > consideration too. Sorry I cant help further but Ive trawled through > all my files to no avail. I know I once referenced the problem with MT > Propellers and they made a definitive reply > > Bob Harrison > > Robt.C.Harrison > >* >* > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.