---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/11/07: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:06 AM - Re: bouyancy (Graham Singleton) 2. 03:17 AM - Re: bouyancy (Roger Anderson) 3. 09:33 AM - Re: bouyancy (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 4. 10:38 AM - Re: bouyancy (Fred Klein) 5. 11:37 AM - Re: bouyancy (Trevpond@aol.com) 6. 11:34 PM - Fuel vent opening ideas wanted () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:10 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: bouyancy Fred as Neville suggests, there is probably enough foam in an XS to float the engine. All you need to be sure is 2 cubic ft of blue foam, which you could put in behind the wing spar. You could estimate the amount of PVC foam, (about 5 lbs/cu ft,?) from the wetted area of the aircraft. It's 3mm thick. You know the weight, 1370lbs. Graham Fred Klein wrote: > All, > > Posted points are well taken...as I said, I intend to do some research > on the subject and will report back any information I gather...adding > foam may well be one of those seemingly simple notions which, upon > investigation, is fraught with peril. > > Fred > > On Wednesday, January 10, 2007, at 03:51 PM, NevEyre@aol.com wrote: > > Hi Bob / All. > The blue foam is pretty well closed cell, the type that is > definately closed cell is coloured orange, and sold as ''Flotation > Billet'' as opposed to ''Insulation Billet of the blue, as used in > the Europa. > The blue will not pick up too much water unless immersed at great > depth, where the pressure will force the water into the cells, so > fine at sea level ! It weighs 2lb. cu.ft, and a cu.ft will support > 60lbs in fresh water. > Most of the foams that are injected, are open cell, so will soak > up water like a sponge, the pour in types supplied to the marine > trade for bouyancy are very inconsistant in use, sometimes they > tend to expand to ''open cell'', which again will soak up water. > [I have seen boats foamed with this ''TOUCAN'' foam that > have absorbed so much water they barely floated] > The other problem with the ''pour in'' foams [ as opposed to the > blow in, injected types] is that the finnished volume can vary, > you can never be sure how far it will go. I have witnessed floors > ripped from hulls. Temperature of the two foam components. and the > space being foamed will have an effect. The warmer the foam and / > or space, the further it will go.What can happen, is that it fills > a space entirely, and ''gells'',[ so cant escape from the vent > hole] then carries on expanding, with sometimes disasterous > results.The power of foam expanding has to be seen to be believed! > I have seen a Range Rover that someone with a grievence had poured > some of this two pack foam into, puffed it out like a hedgehog, > totally round by the time it had finnished! > A Classic, I am sure , will have more than enough volume of foam > to stay afloat indefinately, an XS will eventually fill up, but > possibly ''lurk'' nose down just below the surface. > Cheers, > Nev. > > > > _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List_ > > > _http://forums.matronics.com_ > > > size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier"> > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:17:46 AM PST US From: "Roger Anderson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: bouyancy Has anybody devised a mod. to mount an outboard motor protruding through the botom of the baggage bay for self retrieval following a ditching? Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:32 AM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: bouyancy Or 5mm thick in hte XS wing(?). In passing, I recall that Ivan claimed 9lbs(?) had been saved in coring out the blue foam of the Classic wing. So if a lb of foam provides 30lbs of buoyancy, then 270lbs of potential buoyancy has been lost from the Classic wings; if/when the hollowed-out sections inundate after a ditching. Duncan McF. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:04 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: bouyancy > > > Fred > as Neville suggests, there is probably enough foam in an XS to float the > engine. All you need to be sure is 2 cubic ft of blue foam, which you > could put in behind the wing spar. > You could estimate the amount of PVC foam, (about 5 lbs/cu ft,?) from the > wetted area of the aircraft. It's 3mm thick. You know the weight, 1370lbs. > Graham > > Fred Klein wrote: > >> All, >> >> Posted points are well taken...as I said, I intend to do some research on >> the subject and will report back any information I gather...adding foam >> may well be one of those seemingly simple notions which, upon >> investigation, is fraught with peril. >> >> Fred >> >> On Wednesday, January 10, 2007, at 03:51 PM, NevEyre@aol.com wrote: >> >> Hi Bob / All. >> The blue foam is pretty well closed cell, the type that is >> definately closed cell is coloured orange, and sold as ''Flotation >> Billet'' as opposed to ''Insulation Billet of the blue, as used in >> the Europa. >> The blue will not pick up too much water unless immersed at great >> depth, where the pressure will force the water into the cells, so >> fine at sea level ! It weighs 2lb. cu.ft, and a cu.ft will support >> 60lbs in fresh water. >> Most of the foams that are injected, are open cell, so will soak >> up water like a sponge, the pour in types supplied to the marine >> trade for bouyancy are very inconsistant in use, sometimes they >> tend to expand to ''open cell'', which again will soak up water. >> [I have seen boats foamed with this ''TOUCAN'' foam that >> have absorbed so much water they barely floated] >> The other problem with the ''pour in'' foams [ as opposed to the >> blow in, injected types] is that the finnished volume can vary, >> you can never be sure how far it will go. I have witnessed floors >> ripped from hulls. Temperature of the two foam components. and the >> space being foamed will have an effect. The warmer the foam and / >> or space, the further it will go.What can happen, is that it fills >> a space entirely, and ''gells'',[ so cant escape from the vent >> hole] then carries on expanding, with sometimes disasterous >> results.The power of foam expanding has to be seen to be believed! >> I have seen a Range Rover that someone with a grievence had poured >> some of this two pack foam into, puffed it out like a hedgehog, >> totally round by the time it had finnished! >> A Classic, I am sure , will have more than enough volume of foam >> to stay afloat indefinately, an XS will eventually fill up, but >> possibly ''lurk'' nose down just below the surface. >> Cheers, >> Nev. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List_ >> >> >> >> _http://forums.matronics.com_ >> >> >> >> size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier"> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: bouyancy From: Fred Klein Graham, My interest in investigating injecting foam forward of the spar was to create buoyancy to offset the engine weight...I'm ignorant of the relation of the spar location vis a vis the c.g. Blissfully, Fred On Thursday, January 11, 2007, at 02:04 AM, Graham Singleton wrote: > > > Fred > as Neville suggests, there is probably enough foam in an XS to float > the engine. All you need to be sure is 2 cubic ft of blue foam, which > you could put in behind the wing spar. > You could estimate the amount of PVC foam, (about 5 lbs/cu ft,?) from > the wetted area of the aircraft. It's 3mm thick. You know the weight, > 1370lbs. > Graham ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:37:45 AM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: bouyancy I look forward to witnessing the first test float of a classic!!! Best regards to all Trev ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:34:57 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Fuel vent opening ideas wanted From: I have fuel tank vent on my XS Monowheel plumbed to the top of the Cobra, a small space (siphon break) and the vent hose comes out. Was wondering if I could get input on: Attempt to cut down clogging (Bug, Ice formation, Debris) Thoughts on Reduxing in some stainless wool? (What are negatives) Thoughts on crushing vent tube into a oval, in hopes of preventing critter ingress and stream lining? What is favorite location, forward facing? Vertical(90 or 45 degree cut)? Thx. 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