Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:19 AM - Re: Mod 72 question (Pete Lawless)
2. 01:37 AM - Re: Mod 72 question (R.C.Harrison)
3. 04:01 AM - Re: Mod 72 question (Graham Singleton)
4. 08:09 AM - Re: PROBABLE SPAM> Repositioning door gas struts (Paul McAllister)
5. 01:41 PM - Re: Mod 72 question (Mike Parkin)
6. 02:13 PM - Re: External Graphics (SteveD)
7. 02:35 PM - Re: Mod 72 question (R.C.Harrison)
Message 1
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Morning Roger
Can you tell me how many failures there have been and were they all on the
XS set up?
Just trying to assess how quickly I should plan to do the mod as I think my
Classic is just outside the criteria to make it mandatory.
Regards
Pete Lawless
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Bull
Sent: 19 January 2007 20:42
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 question
O.K. Bob, you woke me up!
Rob Housman's answer is on the ball. Using Redux would necessitate
increasing the clearance between the original tube and the new inserts. The
Redux would not be strong enough to withstand the bending load, which is the
critical part of the overall stress. The insert is intended to be a close
but not interference fit in the outer tubes after reaming. Any small
clearance which may exist after fitting the new tubes will be taken up by
deflection caused by the initial load applied by the weight of the engine
and propeller.
The bending load is applied both by the vertical load from the weight of the
engine acting some 2.5" approx forward of the weld affected area, and also
by the small tube which is about 1" above the main horizontal tube. The
forward thrust from the propeller creates this bending load. To that has to
be added on one side the torque reaction. (Distances are from memory as I am
writing this fom home).
I have made a small change to the Mod leaflet to make the applicability
criteria a little clearer. The factors which affect applicability are
engine and propeller weights and c's of g forward of the undercarriage
mounting frame, and the engine torque.
Briefly all Rotax engined Europas, except those with classic engine
installations and light propellers as defined in the Mod leaflet, will need
to incorporate the Mod. So all Rotax engined XS models, regardless of
whether 912, 912S or 914, and regardless of propeller will need the Mod.
Europas with engines other than Rotax will need to be checked on a case by
case basis. We have already established that Europas with the Jabiru 3300
engine will need the Mod.
It was orginally intended that the news of the Mod would be promulgated by
the PFA and EA4 on their respective websites simultaneously - unfortunately
that did not happen. The PFA have now updated their Type Acceptance Data
Sheet to include Mod 72.
We realise that quite a long time has elapsed since the failure took place
that gave rise to this Mod. It was necessary first to establish that the
failure was not a one-off due to a unique set of circumstances; research
into the original calculations established that there was a more general
problem. The we had to devise a satisfactory solution that would be
reasonably straightforward to incorporate, then carry out tests to prove the
fix. Then the method had to be agreed with the PFA, and the Mod leaflet
written. This latter exercise proved rather drawn out, and several drafts
were needed before the current version was agreed. Establishing why the
original error in stressing was made during the reign of EMIL proved almost
impossible, as the engineer concerned died a few years ago.
I realise that many people may feel that an unnecessary fuss is being made
about this Mod, but a look at the attached photo of the first, but not only,
failure should prove interesting.
Best regards,
Roger Bull
EA4
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
Borger
Sent: 19 January 2007 1:48 pm
Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72 question
Fellow Europaphiles,
The Mod 72 topic has become too quiet. I've decided to give it a poke and
see if I can wake it up again.
I have all the various bits for Mod 72 on order. Etching primer, ACF-50,
16.5 mm hand reamer & Mod 72 kit.
I am wondering why the heavy wall tubing is not bonded in place with
something like Redux.
Is the press fit good enough to support the frame?
Would it be better to Redux the insert in place? Better support and
corrosion protection?
If not, why not?
Good building and great flying,
Bob Borger
Standing by, wearing my nomex undies, ready for the flames.
P.S.
The reamer will be available for loan to any Europa builder in the U.S. or
Canada who needs it for Mod 72.
--
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Message 2
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Hi! Tom
This is now two photo's of failed items I've seen which, IMHO I have to
agree 100% with you every indication of fatigue is there. My training is
likely "old Hat" particularly considering modern alloy extruded tube but
I wonder what traceability exists of annealing/stress relieving :-
a) done to these and all frames ? (do certificates exist and where?)
b) what such heat treatment is actually called up on the metals and
complex joints in question?
c) what investigation has been undertaken with Rockwell Hardness tests
over the whole of the failed frames and in particular close to the
failure?
This is all shutting the gate after the horse has bolted but in the
total shape of things we need to know along with the question will new
ones be produced with up rated tubes and will they have an appropriately
designed heat treatment with a certificate?
NB I do have evidence that my nose leg has been "normalised".
Regards
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Friedland
Sent: 20 January 2007 04:52
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 question
Hi Graham
I doubt that you will get an answer what caused the break. It looks to
be that it was most likely a tension break with perhaps some fatigue
factor. The upper tubes will have tension in the upper parts and that
will be increased by the thrust. There also could be some problem with
non annealed brittleness from the closeness of the weld.
The lower tubes should be ok as they have tension stress from weight
bearing but that is cancelled by compression.
But then what do I know. My engineering studies were 50 years ago! Now
I am just a dumb doc.
Tom
On 1/19/07, Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
grahamsingleton@btinternet.com <mailto:grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> >
Roger
what type of failure was it, bending, shear or fatigue?
Graham
Roger Bull wrote:
>O.K. Bob, you woke me up!
>
>
>Rob Housman's answer is on the ball. Using Redux would necessitate
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Mod 72 question |
Hi Tom
Most likely is excessive vibration, like when you lose a prop blade or
heavy landing/prop strike
Be nice to know though. ;-)
Graham
Tom Friedland wrote:
> Hi Graham
>
> I doubt that you will get an answer what caused the break. It looks
> to be that it was most likely a tension break with perhaps some
> fatigue factor. The upper tubes will have tension in the upper parts
> and that will be increased by the thrust. There also could be some
> problem with non annealed brittleness from the closeness of the weld.
>
> The lower tubes should be ok as they have tension stress from weight
> bearing but that is cancelled by compression.
>
> But then what do I know. My engineering studies were 50 years ago!
> Now I am just a dumb doc.
>
> Tom
Message 4
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Subject: | Repositioning door gas struts |
Mike,
If you take a look at my construction diary at
http://europa363.versadev.com/ under April 2002 I have documented enough
detail for you to reverse your gas struts.
This works fairly well, I haven't seen any bowing of the doors in 2+ years
of flying. I will say how ever is the Ted's design is a much superior and
elegant solution to the problem.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Gamble
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 9:51 AM
To: Europa-List@Matronics.Com
Subject: PROBABLE SPAM> Europa-List: Repositioning door gas struts
Good day chaps.
Anyone have any tips on fixings for the 'reversed' gas strut.
Glue and rivit some an ali angle to the door frame?
Any special place?
Any traps to fall into?
Would this require mod action via pfa?
Thanks
Mike Gamble
XSmono 440
still at it, on and off
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Mod 72 question |
Bob,
This is why we are able to operate our aircraft so cheaply. If you want
certificates and batch numbers, buy a certified aircraft and pay for
your annual and C of A. Also you would not be allowed to perform your
own maintenance. If you are not happy with the certified/experimental
world, then do not ruin it for those of us that are.
regards,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: R.C.Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 9:34 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 question
Hi! Tom
This is now two photo's of failed items I've seen which, IMHO I have
to agree 100% with you every indication of fatigue is there. My training
is likely "old Hat" particularly considering modern alloy extruded tube
but I wonder what traceability exists of annealing/stress relieving :-
a) done to these and all frames ? (do certificates exist and where?)
b) what such heat treatment is actually called up on the metals and
complex joints in question?
c) what investigation has been undertaken with Rockwell Hardness tests
over the whole of the failed frames and in particular close to the
failure?
This is all shutting the gate after the horse has bolted but in the
total shape of things we need to know along with the question will new
ones be produced with up rated tubes and will they have an appropriately
designed heat treatment with a certificate?
NB I do have evidence that my nose leg has been "normalised".
Regards
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Friedland
Sent: 20 January 2007 04:52
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 question
Hi Graham
I doubt that you will get an answer what caused the break. It looks
to be that it was most likely a tension break with perhaps some fatigue
factor. The upper tubes will have tension in the upper parts and that
will be increased by the thrust. There also could be some problem with
non annealed brittleness from the closeness of the weld.
The lower tubes should be ok as they have tension stress from weight
bearing but that is cancelled by compression.
But then what do I know. My engineering studies were 50 years ago!
Now I am just a dumb doc.
Tom
On 1/19/07, Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Roger
what type of failure was it, bending, shear or fatigue?
Graham
Roger Bull wrote:
>O.K. Bob, you woke me up!
>
>
>Rob Housman's answer is on the ball. Using Redux would necessitate
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20/01/2007 10:24
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: External Graphics |
I'm rebroadcasting this email it didn't seem to make it to the list.
Steved.
Im one of the three builders of XS Tri-Gear G-CHOX. We will soon be having the
aircraft painted shiny white, and are starting to think about the exterior design
graphics. Some questions for the forum:
1. Has any one used a UK graphic designer, and what were the costs and results?
2. Can anyone recommend a UK graphics company to produce the transfers or adhesive-backed
vinyl decals?
3. What are the things to watch out for?
4. The Registration Letters kit sold by Europa 04 has letters which are significantly
smaller than those mandated by the CAA in CAP 523. Is this a problem that
one can ignore as most seem to?
5. The Europa Decal Design Kit sold by Europa 04 (as shown on the demonstrator
G-KITZ) assumes no registration letters on the fuselage side, only on the tail
fin. This would be totally unacceptable to the CAA, wouldnt it?
Any other thoughts or advice would be welcome.
Goff Moore
goffmoore@aviators.net
G-CHOX Build Group: Peter Field, Ian Swankie, Goff Moore.
www.gchox.co.uk
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 7
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Mike
No intention of ruining it for anyone but just need to know to live. The
thread wasn't started by me anyway see below.
If the information is there then let's have some acknowledgement that
the items have been properly normalised the PFA is a branch of the CAA
anyway. As I said I know my nose leg was normalised, but can't see why
it touches any raw nerve to ask about the rest, they may well be, but
let someone confirm it? I found a flaw in the material of my Jabiru
engine mount and the pro. who fabricated it couldn't believe he missed
it. So why shouldn't it be asked if this work has been done and more to
the point lets hear of the check of the status of those that cracked.
There's no such cracks on mine with a heavy engine and an exceptionally
heavy prop(but very correctly balanced) but then I did have the
foresight to redux some close fitting thick walled tube in place 7 years
ago, before any load cycles were applied. It is also conceivable that
the "gods in the PFA" won't accept my application for exemption.
After all some people just may prefer (having floated their engine
forward) to replace the whole landing frame having had some reassurances
that the new issue ones have been up rated and normalised instead of
doing mod 72.
If there is a shortfall of strength in existing frames so needing mod 72
then IMHO it is just conceivable that cyclic fatigue is already present
unless the frame was supported from scratch and prior to application of
any load whatever.
As you see I have not posted this rant on the full forum.
Regards
Bob H
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin
Sent: 20 January 2007 21:41
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 question
Bob,
This is why we are able to operate our aircraft so cheaply. If you want
certificates and batch numbers, buy a certified aircraft and pay for
your annual and C of A. Also you would not be allowed to perform your
own maintenance. If you are not happy with the certified/experimental
world, then do not ruin it for those of us that are.
regards,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: R.C.Harrison <mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 9:34 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 question
Hi! Tom
This is now two photo's of failed items I've seen which, IMHO I have to
agree 100% with you every indication of fatigue is there. My training is
likely "old Hat" particularly considering modern alloy extruded tube but
I wonder what traceability exists of annealing/stress relieving :-
a) done to these and all frames ? (do certificates exist and where?)
b) what such heat treatment is actually called up on the metals and
complex joints in question?
c) what investigation has been undertaken with Rockwell Hardness tests
over the whole of the failed frames and in particular close to the
failure?
This is all shutting the gate after the horse has bolted but in the
total shape of things we need to know along with the question will new
ones be produced with up rated tubes and will they have an appropriately
designed heat treatment with a certificate?
NB I do have evidence that my nose leg has been "normalised".
Regards
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Friedland
Sent: 20 January 2007 04:52
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 question
Hi Graham
I doubt that you will get an answer what caused the break. It looks to
be that it was most likely a tension break with perhaps some fatigue
factor. The upper tubes will have tension in the upper parts and that
will be increased by the thrust. There also could be some problem with
non annealed brittleness from the closeness of the weld.
The lower tubes should be ok as they have tension stress from weight
bearing but that is cancelled by compression.
But then what do I know. My engineering studies were 50 years ago! Now
I am just a dumb doc.
Tom
On 1/19/07, Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
grahamsingleton@btinternet.com <mailto:grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> >
Roger
what type of failure was it, bending, shear or fatigue?
Graham
Roger Bull wrote:
>O.K. Bob, you woke me up!
>
>
>Rob Housman's answer is on the ball. Using Redux would necessitate
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