---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/20/07: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:19 AM - Re: Mod 72 question (Pete Lawless) 2. 01:37 AM - Re: Mod 72 question (R.C.Harrison) 3. 04:01 AM - Re: Mod 72 question (Graham Singleton) 4. 08:09 AM - Re: PROBABLE SPAM> Repositioning door gas struts (Paul McAllister) 5. 01:41 PM - Re: Mod 72 question (Mike Parkin) 6. 02:13 PM - Re: External Graphics (SteveD) 7. 02:35 PM - Re: Mod 72 question (R.C.Harrison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:50 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 question Morning Roger Can you tell me how many failures there have been and were they all on the XS set up? Just trying to assess how quickly I should plan to do the mod as I think my Classic is just outside the criteria to make it mandatory. Regards Pete Lawless -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Bull Sent: 19 January 2007 20:42 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 question O.K. Bob, you woke me up! Rob Housman's answer is on the ball. Using Redux would necessitate increasing the clearance between the original tube and the new inserts. The Redux would not be strong enough to withstand the bending load, which is the critical part of the overall stress. The insert is intended to be a close but not interference fit in the outer tubes after reaming. Any small clearance which may exist after fitting the new tubes will be taken up by deflection caused by the initial load applied by the weight of the engine and propeller. The bending load is applied both by the vertical load from the weight of the engine acting some 2.5" approx forward of the weld affected area, and also by the small tube which is about 1" above the main horizontal tube. The forward thrust from the propeller creates this bending load. To that has to be added on one side the torque reaction. (Distances are from memory as I am writing this fom home). I have made a small change to the Mod leaflet to make the applicability criteria a little clearer. The factors which affect applicability are engine and propeller weights and c's of g forward of the undercarriage mounting frame, and the engine torque. Briefly all Rotax engined Europas, except those with classic engine installations and light propellers as defined in the Mod leaflet, will need to incorporate the Mod. So all Rotax engined XS models, regardless of whether 912, 912S or 914, and regardless of propeller will need the Mod. Europas with engines other than Rotax will need to be checked on a case by case basis. We have already established that Europas with the Jabiru 3300 engine will need the Mod. It was orginally intended that the news of the Mod would be promulgated by the PFA and EA4 on their respective websites simultaneously - unfortunately that did not happen. The PFA have now updated their Type Acceptance Data Sheet to include Mod 72. We realise that quite a long time has elapsed since the failure took place that gave rise to this Mod. It was necessary first to establish that the failure was not a one-off due to a unique set of circumstances; research into the original calculations established that there was a more general problem. The we had to devise a satisfactory solution that would be reasonably straightforward to incorporate, then carry out tests to prove the fix. Then the method had to be agreed with the PFA, and the Mod leaflet written. This latter exercise proved rather drawn out, and several drafts were needed before the current version was agreed. Establishing why the original error in stressing was made during the reign of EMIL proved almost impossible, as the engineer concerned died a few years ago. I realise that many people may feel that an unnecessary fuss is being made about this Mod, but a look at the attached photo of the first, but not only, failure should prove interesting. Best regards, Roger Bull EA4 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert Borger Sent: 19 January 2007 1:48 pm Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72 question Fellow Europaphiles, The Mod 72 topic has become too quiet. I've decided to give it a poke and see if I can wake it up again. I have all the various bits for Mod 72 on order. Etching primer, ACF-50, 16.5 mm hand reamer & Mod 72 kit. I am wondering why the heavy wall tubing is not bonded in place with something like Redux. Is the press fit good enough to support the frame? Would it be better to Redux the insert in place? Better support and corrosion protection? If not, why not? Good building and great flying, Bob Borger Standing by, wearing my nomex undies, ready for the flames. P.S. The reamer will be available for loan to any Europa builder in the U.S. or Canada who needs it for Mod 72. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:37:03 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 question Hi! Tom This is now two photo's of failed items I've seen which, IMHO I have to agree 100% with you every indication of fatigue is there. My training is likely "old Hat" particularly considering modern alloy extruded tube but I wonder what traceability exists of annealing/stress relieving :- a) done to these and all frames ? (do certificates exist and where?) b) what such heat treatment is actually called up on the metals and complex joints in question? c) what investigation has been undertaken with Rockwell Hardness tests over the whole of the failed frames and in particular close to the failure? This is all shutting the gate after the horse has bolted but in the total shape of things we need to know along with the question will new ones be produced with up rated tubes and will they have an appropriately designed heat treatment with a certificate? NB I do have evidence that my nose leg has been "normalised". Regards Bob Harrison. G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Friedland Sent: 20 January 2007 04:52 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 question Hi Graham I doubt that you will get an answer what caused the break. It looks to be that it was most likely a tension break with perhaps some fatigue factor. The upper tubes will have tension in the upper parts and that will be increased by the thrust. There also could be some problem with non annealed brittleness from the closeness of the weld. The lower tubes should be ok as they have tension stress from weight bearing but that is cancelled by compression. But then what do I know. My engineering studies were 50 years ago! Now I am just a dumb doc. Tom On 1/19/07, Graham Singleton wrote: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com > Roger what type of failure was it, bending, shear or fatigue? Graham Roger Bull wrote: >O.K. Bob, you woke me up! > > >Rob Housman's answer is on the ball. Using Redux would necessitate ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:06 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 question Hi Tom Most likely is excessive vibration, like when you lose a prop blade or heavy landing/prop strike Be nice to know though. ;-) Graham Tom Friedland wrote: > Hi Graham > > I doubt that you will get an answer what caused the break. It looks > to be that it was most likely a tension break with perhaps some > fatigue factor. The upper tubes will have tension in the upper parts > and that will be increased by the thrust. There also could be some > problem with non annealed brittleness from the closeness of the weld. > > The lower tubes should be ok as they have tension stress from weight > bearing but that is cancelled by compression. > > But then what do I know. My engineering studies were 50 years ago! > Now I am just a dumb doc. > > Tom ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:28 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: PROBABLE SPAM> Europa-List: Repositioning door gas struts Mike, If you take a look at my construction diary at http://europa363.versadev.com/ under April 2002 I have documented enough detail for you to reverse your gas struts. This works fairly well, I haven't seen any bowing of the doors in 2+ years of flying. I will say how ever is the Ted's design is a much superior and elegant solution to the problem. Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Gamble Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 9:51 AM To: Europa-List@Matronics.Com Subject: PROBABLE SPAM> Europa-List: Repositioning door gas struts Good day chaps. Anyone have any tips on fixings for the 'reversed' gas strut. Glue and rivit some an ali angle to the door frame? Any special place? Any traps to fall into? Would this require mod action via pfa? Thanks Mike Gamble XSmono 440 still at it, on and off ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:41:49 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 question Bob, This is why we are able to operate our aircraft so cheaply. If you want certificates and batch numbers, buy a certified aircraft and pay for your annual and C of A. Also you would not be allowed to perform your own maintenance. If you are not happy with the certified/experimental world, then do not ruin it for those of us that are. regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: R.C.Harrison To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 9:34 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 question Hi! Tom This is now two photo's of failed items I've seen which, IMHO I have to agree 100% with you every indication of fatigue is there. My training is likely "old Hat" particularly considering modern alloy extruded tube but I wonder what traceability exists of annealing/stress relieving :- a) done to these and all frames ? (do certificates exist and where?) b) what such heat treatment is actually called up on the metals and complex joints in question? c) what investigation has been undertaken with Rockwell Hardness tests over the whole of the failed frames and in particular close to the failure? This is all shutting the gate after the horse has bolted but in the total shape of things we need to know along with the question will new ones be produced with up rated tubes and will they have an appropriately designed heat treatment with a certificate? NB I do have evidence that my nose leg has been "normalised". Regards Bob Harrison. G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Friedland Sent: 20 January 2007 04:52 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 question Hi Graham I doubt that you will get an answer what caused the break. It looks to be that it was most likely a tension break with perhaps some fatigue factor. The upper tubes will have tension in the upper parts and that will be increased by the thrust. There also could be some problem with non annealed brittleness from the closeness of the weld. The lower tubes should be ok as they have tension stress from weight bearing but that is cancelled by compression. But then what do I know. My engineering studies were 50 years ago! Now I am just a dumb doc. Tom On 1/19/07, Graham Singleton wrote: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> Roger what type of failure was it, bending, shear or fatigue? Graham Roger Bull wrote: >O.K. Bob, you woke me up! > > >Rob Housman's answer is on the ball. Using Redux would necessitate - The Europa-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 20/01/2007 10:24 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:27 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: External Graphics From: "SteveD" I'm rebroadcasting this email it didn't seem to make it to the list. Steved. Im one of the three builders of XS Tri-Gear G-CHOX. We will soon be having the aircraft painted shiny white, and are starting to think about the exterior design graphics. Some questions for the forum: 1. Has any one used a UK graphic designer, and what were the costs and results? 2. Can anyone recommend a UK graphics company to produce the transfers or adhesive-backed vinyl decals? 3. What are the things to watch out for? 4. The Registration Letters kit sold by Europa 04 has letters which are significantly smaller than those mandated by the CAA in CAP 523. Is this a problem that one can ignore as most seem to? 5. The Europa Decal Design Kit sold by Europa 04 (as shown on the demonstrator G-KITZ) assumes no registration letters on the fuselage side, only on the tail fin. This would be totally unacceptable to the CAA, wouldnt it? Any other thoughts or advice would be welcome. Goff Moore goffmoore@aviators.net G-CHOX Build Group: Peter Field, Ian Swankie, Goff Moore. www.gchox.co.uk Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:35:50 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 question Mike No intention of ruining it for anyone but just need to know to live. The thread wasn't started by me anyway see below. If the information is there then let's have some acknowledgement that the items have been properly normalised the PFA is a branch of the CAA anyway. As I said I know my nose leg was normalised, but can't see why it touches any raw nerve to ask about the rest, they may well be, but let someone confirm it? I found a flaw in the material of my Jabiru engine mount and the pro. who fabricated it couldn't believe he missed it. So why shouldn't it be asked if this work has been done and more to the point lets hear of the check of the status of those that cracked. There's no such cracks on mine with a heavy engine and an exceptionally heavy prop(but very correctly balanced) but then I did have the foresight to redux some close fitting thick walled tube in place 7 years ago, before any load cycles were applied. It is also conceivable that the "gods in the PFA" won't accept my application for exemption. After all some people just may prefer (having floated their engine forward) to replace the whole landing frame having had some reassurances that the new issue ones have been up rated and normalised instead of doing mod 72. If there is a shortfall of strength in existing frames so needing mod 72 then IMHO it is just conceivable that cyclic fatigue is already present unless the frame was supported from scratch and prior to application of any load whatever. As you see I have not posted this rant on the full forum. Regards Bob H -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin Sent: 20 January 2007 21:41 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 question Bob, This is why we are able to operate our aircraft so cheaply. If you want certificates and batch numbers, buy a certified aircraft and pay for your annual and C of A. Also you would not be allowed to perform your own maintenance. If you are not happy with the certified/experimental world, then do not ruin it for those of us that are. regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: R.C.Harrison Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 9:34 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 question Hi! Tom This is now two photo's of failed items I've seen which, IMHO I have to agree 100% with you every indication of fatigue is there. My training is likely "old Hat" particularly considering modern alloy extruded tube but I wonder what traceability exists of annealing/stress relieving :- a) done to these and all frames ? (do certificates exist and where?) b) what such heat treatment is actually called up on the metals and complex joints in question? c) what investigation has been undertaken with Rockwell Hardness tests over the whole of the failed frames and in particular close to the failure? This is all shutting the gate after the horse has bolted but in the total shape of things we need to know along with the question will new ones be produced with up rated tubes and will they have an appropriately designed heat treatment with a certificate? NB I do have evidence that my nose leg has been "normalised". Regards Bob Harrison. G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Friedland Sent: 20 January 2007 04:52 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 question Hi Graham I doubt that you will get an answer what caused the break. It looks to be that it was most likely a tension break with perhaps some fatigue factor. The upper tubes will have tension in the upper parts and that will be increased by the thrust. There also could be some problem with non annealed brittleness from the closeness of the weld. The lower tubes should be ok as they have tension stress from weight bearing but that is cancelled by compression. But then what do I know. My engineering studies were 50 years ago! Now I am just a dumb doc. Tom On 1/19/07, Graham Singleton wrote: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com > Roger what type of failure was it, bending, shear or fatigue? Graham Roger Bull wrote: >O.K. Bob, you woke me up! > > >Rob Housman's answer is on the ball. 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