Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:46 AM - Re: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for (josok)
2. 07:14 AM - Re: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for (Raimo Toivio)
3. 07:43 AM - run up on the trailer (Raimo Toivio)
4. 08:12 AM - Re: run up on the trailer (Roger Anderson)
5. 08:43 AM - Re: run up on the trailer (David Joyce)
6. 08:45 AM - Re: run up on the trailer (Steve Crimm)
7. 09:03 AM - Re: Project For Sale (h&jeuropa)
8. 09:19 AM - Re: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for the group (William Harrison)
9. 10:01 AM - Radiator Hose for Classic 912S (Peter Timm)
10. 11:00 AM - Re: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for (josok)
11. 01:19 PM - Re: run up on the trailer (karelvranken)
12. 02:30 PM - Undercarriage Overcentre Locking (Graeme Smith)
13. 03:41 PM - Re: Undercarriage Overcentre Locking ()
14. 03:44 PM - Re: run up on the trailer (Carl Pattinson)
15. 04:19 PM - Re: Undercarriage Overcentre Locking ()
16. 09:59 PM - Re: Undercarriage Overcentre Locking (Paul Boulet)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for |
Did i say somehing wrong?
Kind Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for |
Jos,
In my mind you did not.
In fact I thought also
it would be valuable
to get to know those
dangerous building errors
= "not-so-good -points".
Maybe you managed to stir
the bee-hive. I know one case
where honourable inspector
asked builder to raise the flaps
(monowheel). I have to say this
happened outside of Finland
last autumn. By telling this story
I try to explain "inspected" plane
is not same as "faultless and safe"
plane. Some of those inspectors
are only "papermen" w/o any
understanding of any plane.
Wishes, Raimo
=========
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, completed
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, under reinterioring
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for
>
> Did i say somehing wrong?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | run up on the trailer |
Those who know:
is it possible to run up an engine
when the plane is on the trailer
and do it safely?
I have a monowheel Europa
and an original Europa trailer
with the optional side supporters.
The trailer is fixed with a car and
the tailwheel is fixed with the trailer.
The wings will be derigged.
Just wonder is it too hard for the main
gear because of the prop torque?
My purpose is just to make it idle,
no full power at all.
Thanks, Raimo
==========
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, completed
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, under reinterioring
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: run up on the trailer |
Yes - but make sure that the trailer is anchored, the fuse is strapped down
and that the wings and the elevators are removed. The wing supports should
be hinged down on the ground as otherwise the straps may fret.
Roger. G-BXTD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 3:48 PM
Subject: Europa-List: run up on the trailer
>
> Those who know:
>
> is it possible to run up an engine
> when the plane is on the trailer
> and do it safely?
>
> I have a monowheel Europa
> and an original Europa trailer
> with the optional side supporters.
> The trailer is fixed with a car and
> the tailwheel is fixed with the trailer.
> The wings will be derigged.
>
> Just wonder is it too hard for the main
> gear because of the prop torque?
> My purpose is just to make it idle,
> no full power at all.
>
> Thanks, Raimo
> ==========
>
> Raimo M W Toivio
>
> OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, completed
> OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, under reinterioring
> OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
>
> 37500 Lempaala
> Finland
> tel + 358 3 3753 777
> fax + 358 3 3753 100
> gsm + 358 40 590 1450
>
> raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
> www.rwm.fi
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: run up on the trailer |
Raimo, I did my engine runs that way including full power tests. No
problems. Picture attached. David Joyce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 3:48 PM
Subject: Europa-List: run up on the trailer
>
> Those who know:
>
> is it possible to run up an engine
> when the plane is on the trailer
> and do it safely?
>
> I have a monowheel Europa
> and an original Europa trailer
> with the optional side supporters.
> The trailer is fixed with a car and
> the tailwheel is fixed with the trailer.
> The wings will be derigged.
>
> Just wonder is it too hard for the main
> gear because of the prop torque?
> My purpose is just to make it idle,
> no full power at all.
>
> Thanks, Raimo
> ==========
>
> Raimo M W Toivio
>
> OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, completed
> OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, under reinterioring
> OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
>
> 37500 Lempaala
> Finland
> tel + 358 3 3753 777
> fax + 358 3 3753 100
> gsm + 358 40 590 1450
>
> raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
> www.rwm.fi
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | run up on the trailer |
Roger,
"Fuse strapped down"????
I don't nor have I seen a Europa being strapped down for travel. Guess my
head is in the sand, nothing un-common. Can you or the group provide some
more information on this and maybe some pics? Am I lucky it hasn't jumped
off of it's trailer while I have been dragging it around the countryside?
Thanks,
Steve
N42AH
For Sale
www.stephenscott.com/Europa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Anderson
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 11:12
Subject: Re: Europa-List: run up on the trailer
--> <pr@dcanderson.myzen.co.uk>
Yes - but make sure that the trailer is anchored, the fuse is strapped down
and that the wings and the elevators are removed. The wing supports should
be hinged down on the ground as otherwise the straps may fret.
Roger. G-BXTD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 3:48 PM
Subject: Europa-List: run up on the trailer
>
> Those who know:
>
> is it possible to run up an engine
> when the plane is on the trailer
> and do it safely?
>
> I have a monowheel Europa
> and an original Europa trailer
> with the optional side supporters.
> The trailer is fixed with a car and
> the tailwheel is fixed with the trailer.
> The wings will be derigged.
>
> Just wonder is it too hard for the main
> gear because of the prop torque?
> My purpose is just to make it idle,
> no full power at all.
>
> Thanks, Raimo
> ==========
>
> Raimo M W Toivio
>
> OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, completed
> OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, under reinterioring
> OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
>
> 37500 Lempaala
> Finland
> tel + 358 3 3753 777
> fax + 358 3 3753 100
> gsm + 358 40 590 1450
>
> raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
> www.rwm.fi
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Project For Sale |
The deal on Nihl's project fell through, so it is still available. This is an
opportunity to get a set of glider wings well below the current factory price
and a tri gear fuselage as an extra!!
Contact Nihl directly at 517-617-1388 (ET).
Jim Butcher
N241BW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'873#96873
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for the group |
Hi Jos
Can I answer your second question first? The Europa is for me a
return to a PFA type after 15 years of flying a certified type.
Previously I had a share in a plans-built Jodel which was massive fun
to fly but a death trap. I was dismayed then by the low standard of
workmanship which had obviously been passed when the aircraft was
built and also by the lax standard of the yearly inspection. After
two engine failures within a year I went off to find something more
dependable. When I bought the Europa (Total time 12 hours when
purchased) it was with the blind faith that things must have moved on
- better designs, better build standards required and better annual
inspections. The good news is that there are obviously some superb
inspectors out there with huge knowledge of Europas - my inspector,
Tony Kay, is utterly strict when he needs to be, sensibly pragmatic
when he can be and always very helpful - in all respects a top man.
Having built his own monowheel and having inspected many other
Europas, he knew exactly where to look for problems with my aircraft
and boy did he find them (see later). The bad news is that there are
clearly also inspectors out there (I can't name individuals in
writing, the laws of defamation being what they are) who have signed
off appalling workmanship, either because they didn't spot it or
perhaps because they didn't think it mattered.
Anyway, here's a list of the things I can recall:
- The fuel tank was resting on the screws which secure the inspection
panels under the fuselage - it was only a matter of time before the
screws would have chiselled their way through the tank)
- Elevator total travel was below the required spec (by 1 degree)
- The exhaust stub was put on at the wrong angle causing later heat
damage to the port side fuselage
- The rudder cables were fouling in about 8 places in total
(including against the brake pipes which were being sawn through, and
the edge of the tank likewise).
- Rudder linkage was fouling badly on firewall
- Lots of minor but mandatory items were missing: switch and circuit
breaker i/ds, on/off placards, limits for T's and P's and airspeeds
- Coolant hose routed too close to exhaust (and scorched as a result)
- Starter-engaged warning light not connected
- Alternator warning light missing
- Fuel filler pipe wrongly assembled and leaking as a result (the
tank was routinely dumping top 15 litres into the baggage area when
filled).
- Instrument panel fixing screws were all insecure and virtually
every instrument was either inoperative or had a significant problem.
- The cable crimps at the regulator looked as if they had been done
with pliers - one simply fell out. Elsewhere the wiring and vacuum
piping was untidy at best.
- The left and right tailplanes had an inch of slop measured at the
trailing edge (max allowable I recall is 3/16) - this was not due to
wear but apparently to the torque tube holes having been filed out to
make assembly easier...
- Aileron pushrod assembly incorrectly rivetted allowing freeplay
- Missing lock nut in elevator mass balance assembly
- Fireproofing sleeves missing on under cowl fuel pipes
- Wrong material used for coolant overflow pipe
- Missing sealant at holes in engine bulkhead
- Several areas of snagging/fouling in aileron linkage
- Numerous areas where fuel pipes were at risk of abrasion eg rubbing
on aileron torque tube, rudder cables, hole through baggage bay rib etc
- Speed kit incorrectly installed (flap hinge covers abrading flap
hinges and U/C fairing fell off in flight)
Quite a list as you see. I make no criticism of the builder - the PFA
ethos is that you can take as many attempts as you need to meet the
required build standard and the inspector will - should - keep
failing the job until you get it right. It was the inspector who
failed, not the builder. I am grateful to Tony Kay for helping me
find and fix this little lot. We now have dealt with the dangerous
faults (most of the above) and are now moving on to do a re-wire and
panel rebuild to finish licking G-BZNY into shape. Fixing someone
else's poor workmanship is a character-building task but the result
has been worth it - as everyone knows, they are super aircraft if
they are built right.
Cheers!
Willie Harrison
On 21 Feb 2007, at 18:09, Jos Okhuijsen wrote:
>
> Hi Willie,
>
> Could you please detail what the build quality problems were?
> We at least would know what to look out for from your experience.
> Secondly, you are in the UK, so why did the inspector pass that plane?
> Kind Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
> workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane
> http://www.europaowners.org/kit600
> mono xs, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed, fuel system in,
> doors done, windows in, filled and sanded, waiting for the painter,
> engine installation, panel.
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Radiator Hose for Classic 912S |
I am in the middle of my Annual and, as has been recommended, I need to
replace my radiator hoses.
Europa Aircraft are out of stock and are negotiating with a supplier for a
new batch. Currently they have no price to quote, nor a firm delivery date.
I am hoping that someone no longer needs theirs and would be willing to sell
them to me. They are the shaped 1" dia. hoses which lead from the water
pump to the port radiator and from the starboard radiator to the expansion
tank.
If you think you can help could you please respond to:
cptimm@telus.net
Thanks,
Peter Timm
UK Kit #110
built and based in Pemberton:
British Columbia, Canada
Do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Perspective Europa XS purchase - Questions for |
Thanks Willie for sharing those nasties with us. It's an impressive list, and i
Will once more check my project for those errors mentioned.
I personally don't rely on an inspector to find the errors for me, after all it
will by my skin first if something goes wrong. For instance when i pressurized
the fuel system and checked everything with soapy water i was shocked to find
5 places were bubbles appeared. Two of them were only finger tight connections,
two bad flares ( i use alu tubing) And one inch to mil connection leaking.
The place i expected to leak, araldite connections, were all sound. I still
hope my kit's interior will not smell after fuel :-)
In my humble opinion your ( PFA's) inspection system takes the responsibility away
from the builder, or at least could form that impression. But i am an outsider,
no offence please.
Kind Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: run up on the trailer |
Raimo,
My trailer is not the original Europa trailer, so I can't take any
responsability in your case. But my alu-trailer is similar build as yours. I
did motor run ups with pushes to full power. It looked to me as stable as
ready to fly. Also on the trailer we did engine + prop balancing. That means
that we were bussy for two hours by running at different RPM's. Good luck.
Karel Vranken. # 447 F-PKRL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raimo Toivio" raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 4:48 PM
Subject: Europa-List: run up on the trailer
>
> Those who know:
>
> is it possible to run up an engine
> when the plane is on the trailer
> and do it safely?
>
> I have a monowheel Europa
> and an original Europa trailer
> with the optional side supporters.
> The trailer is fixed with a car and
> the tailwheel is fixed with the trailer.
> The wings will be derigged.
>
> Just wonder is it too hard for the main
> gear because of the prop torque?
> My purpose is just to make it idle,
> no full power at all.
>
> Thanks, Raimo
> ==========
>
> Raimo M W Toivio
>
> OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, completed
> OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, under reinterioring
> OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
>
> 37500 Lempaala
> Finland
> tel + 358 3 3753 777
> fax + 358 3 3753 100
> gsm + 358 40 590 1450
>
> raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
> www.rwm.fi
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Undercarriage Overcentre Locking |
Greetings,
Having suffered an undercarriage collapse during the takeoff roll on my
monowheel, I am now pondering what corrective actions to take to prevent a
re-ocurrence. As far as I can figure out, the overcentre locking went 'under
centre' when the aircraft went over a large 'ski-jump undulation' at just
below flying speed on takeoff from a grass strip. Having spent a lot of time
and money cleaning up the mess and fitting a new prop etc, I'm reluctant to
go flying again, even if I confine my operations to an absolutely
glass-smooth runway, until I understand why it happened in the first place
and have some degree of confidence that it won't happen again.
I've looked for any possible 'builder variations' in this area to see if
there is anything that I could have screwed up, but it seems that the
geometry in this area is totally determined by the manufacture of the
landing gear frame and the u/c components, what's more, this area has been
rigorously inspected on several occasions by some very fastidious
inspectors. (although my landing gear frame was modified in the factory to
add reinforcing following some very early landing frame failures, it's
possible that the geometry was affected during this mod). Are any other mono
owners aware of the amount of overcentre on their installations, it would be
interesting to see if there is much variation.
On my aircraft, the degree of overcentre in the 'down and locked' position
is 1/64 of hardly anything at all, (i.e. very small) and it occurs to me
that shaving a few mm off the stops on the landing gear frame would be a
good way of increasing the security of the overcentre locking.
Question: has anyone tried this? Can anyone think of a reason why not?
Regards,
Graeme Smith
No 26
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Undercarriage Overcentre Locking |
Hello Graeme
I am not flying my XS mono yet (A-265 picked up April 2003). When building
I mounted my gear on a fixture and was able to study and fool with till I
was satisfied I fully understood it's operation.
First off you said you measured the over center, how did you measure it?
First off you need to make sure that the rubber spring block is compressed
to proper dimension. The more you tighten, the more overcentre you will
see. If for some reason the gap becomes less than called out for, you will
start ooching towards undercentre. I used a thin straight edge resting on
the edge of 3 pins that are the same diameter. The top pin is the pivot
pin that attaches to LG08s, the bottom pin is LG04, and the middle pin is
a little tricky, I made an insert that fits in the middle of LG08 tube
with a pin protruding the same size as the prior 2 mentioned. Now I have 3
points and can measure overcentre.
To my horror, 1 side was under centre and the other just bout neutral! I
ground down stops to where there was just a tad over 1/16" overcentre. You
need to be very careful you don't over do this as it will begin to put
much stress on UCMF. I forget the exact number that Andy said, but perhaps
1/8" was the limit.
The top of stop was gone when I achieved 1/16" on 1 side and the other
side was paper thin. What I did was grind down to 1/8" overcentre, and
inserted with Redux/Flox a pretty hard and stiff piece of polyurethane I
got from McMaster Carr, and pinned it after cure with a bolt. The
overcentre is just a tad over 1/16" on the polyurethane. Andy gave my
kluge a thumbs up.
Please don't overlook the connection between LG08P and the retraction
lever. I was careful to ream these 3 holes and scuff sand and Redux this
joint, and installed the mod that reinforces this connection as well. If
this joint has any movement when the lever is in the down and locked
position, it may not be ramming and jamming the LG08s against the UCMF
stops.
I also made a spring return for the down stop lock where it is very
positive in keeping it where you want it.
Once all was assembled on aircraft, the stops were not hitting absolute
the same time. Splitting hairs here, but I put a piece or 2 of some
Stainless Steel tape as a shim. You can get small pieces of that tape from
Lockwood Aviation, they sell it as prop lead edge tape, or
www.mcmaster.com sells it by the roll.
Hope this helps.
Ron Parigoris
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: run up on the trailer |
David,
I see you have hitched the trailer to to your car but on a "gravel
driveway".
Was there any paintwork left on the vehicle afterwards?
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: run up on the trailer
> Raimo, I did my engine runs that way including full power tests. No
> problems. Picture attached. David Joyce
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 3:48 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: run up on the trailer
>
>
>>
>> Those who know:
>>
>> is it possible to run up an engine
>> when the plane is on the trailer
>> and do it safely?
>>
>> I have a monowheel Europa
>> and an original Europa trailer
>> with the optional side supporters.
>> The trailer is fixed with a car and
>> the tailwheel is fixed with the trailer.
>> The wings will be derigged.
>>
>> Just wonder is it too hard for the main
>> gear because of the prop torque?
>> My purpose is just to make it idle,
>> no full power at all.
>>
>> Thanks, Raimo
>> ==========
>>
>> Raimo M W Toivio
>>
>> OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, completed
>> OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, under reinterioring
>> OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
>>
>> 37500 Lempaala
>> Finland
>> tel + 358 3 3753 777
>> fax + 358 3 3753 100
>> gsm + 358 40 590 1450
>>
>> raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
>> www.rwm.fi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Undercarriage Overcentre Locking |
OOOOOPPPPSSS
"If for some reason the gap becomes less than called out for, you will
start ooching towards undercentre"
I meant to say if the distance between the top and bottom shock absorber
plate increases, for instance the M8 x 100 bolts stretch, loosen or for
whatever reason distance increases from distance called out for (79mm or
3.1"), there will be less overcentre. Increase distance = less overcentre,
decrease distance = more overcentre.
Ron Parigoris
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Undercarriage Overcentre Locking |
For what it's worth, I had the same exact experience. My solution was to c
onvert to Tri Gear. Frustrating and expensive indeed=0APaul Boulet N914PB
=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Graeme Smith <gcsmith@flyer.co.uk
>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, February 23, 2007 2:26:29
PM=0ASubject: Europa-List: Undercarriage Overcentre Locking=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0AGreetings,=0A=0A =0A=0AHaving =0Asuffered an undercarriage coll
apse during the takeoff roll on my monowheel, I am =0Anow pondering what co
rrective actions to take to prevent a re-ocurrence. As far =0Aas I can figu
re out, the overcentre locking went 'under centre' when the =0Aaircraft wen
t over a large 'ski-jump undulation' at just below flying speed on =0Atakeo
ff from a grass strip. Having spent a lot of time and money cleaning up the
=0Amess and fitting a new prop etc, I'm reluctant to go flying again, even
if I =0Aconfine my operations to an absolutely glass-smooth runway, until
I understand =0Awhy it happened in the first place and =0Ahave some degree
of confidence that it won't happen again. =0A=0A=0A =0A=0AI've looked =0Afo
r any possible 'builder variations' in this area to see if there is anythin
g =0Athat I could have screwed up, but it seems that the geometry in this a
rea is =0Atotally determined by the manufacture of the landing gear frame a
nd the u/c =0Acomponents, what's more, this area has been rigorously inspec
ted on several =0Aoccasions by some very fastidious inspectors. (although m
y landing gear frame =0Awas modified in the factory to add reinforcing foll
owing some very early landing =0Aframe failures, it's possible that the geo
metry was affected during this mod). =0AAre any other mono owners aware of
the =0Aamount of overcentre on their installations, it would be interesting
to see if =0Athere is much variation.=0A=0A =0A=0AOn my aircraft, the =0Ad
egree of overcentre in the 'down and locked' position is 1/64 =0Aof hardly
anything at all, (i.e. very small) =0Aand it occurs to me that shaving a fe
w mm off the stops on the landing =0Agear frame would be a good way of incr
easing the security of the overcentre =0Alocking.=0A=0A =0A=0AQuestion: has
anyone =0Atried this? Can anyone think of a reason why not?=0A=0A =0A=0ARe
=======================0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A
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