Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:29 AM - Re: FW: fuel hose (Graham Singleton)
2. 05:17 AM - Re: FW: fuel hose (William Daniell)
3. 07:41 AM - Re: FW: fuel hose (Graham Singleton)
4. 08:15 AM - Re: FW: fuel hose (Simon Smith)
5. 08:52 AM - Re: FW: fuel hose (Jeff B)
6. 08:53 AM - Re: FW: fuel hose (rlborger)
7. 09:33 AM - Re: Araldite 420 / Epibond 420 / Redux (William Daniell)
8. 09:53 AM - Re: FW: fuel hose (William Daniell)
9. 09:53 AM - Re: FW: fuel hose (William Daniell)
10. 09:59 AM - Re: Re: FW: fuel hose (Graham Singleton)
11. 10:21 AM - Re: FW: fuel hose (Jerry Rehn)
12. 10:22 AM - Re: FW: fuel hose (Jeff B)
13. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: FW: fuel hose (Jerry Rehn)
14. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: FW: fuel hose ()
15. 11:29 AM - 914: fuel over airbox pressure (josok)
16. 11:48 AM - Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure (Paul Stewart)
17. 12:13 PM - Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure (Simon Smith)
18. 12:16 PM - Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure (Simon Smith)
19. 12:26 PM - Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure (Gilles Thesee)
20. 02:21 PM - Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure (Graham Singleton)
21. 02:36 PM - Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure (Gilles Thesee)
22. 04:04 PM - Outriggers - fitting (Fred Klein)
23. 04:32 PM - Was Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure ----now question of restrictor in return to tank line. (R.C.Harrison)
24. 04:37 PM - Re: Fuel Hose (John & Paddy Wigney)
25. 04:47 PM - Re: FW: fuel hose (Bob)
26. 04:47 PM - Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure (Jerry Rehn)
27. 06:24 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Hose (Tim Ward)
28. 06:24 PM - Re: Was Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure ----now question of restrictor in return to tank line. (Graham Singleton)
29. 08:08 PM - Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure ()
30. 10:27 PM - Re: Outriggers - fitting (David DeFord)
31. 11:25 PM - Re: Outriggers - fitting (William Mills)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: FW: fuel hose |
Will
the best solution is either solid aluminum or teflon lined. The latter
is more expensive.
Graham
William Daniell wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I see rather belatedly that the fabric co vered fuel hose is not
> recommended for installation. Is this so?
>
>
>
> If so what is recommended? What is the most durable stuff (for
> trigear)? I plan to run on AVGAS.
>
Message 2
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Solid aluminum sounds somewhat of a challenge - bending and all that. Is
it?
Teflon lined...what would be a typical brand?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 05:28
Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: fuel hose
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Will
the best solution is either solid aluminum or teflon lined. The latter
is more expensive.
Graham
William Daniell wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I see rather belatedly that the fabric co vered fuel hose is not
> recommended for installation. Is this so?
>
>
>
> If so what is recommended? What is the most durable stuff (for
> trigear)? I plan to run on AVGAS.
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: FW: fuel hose |
Will
n0ot really difficult at all, except that you need a flaring tool for
the joints. Best to beg or borrow one. I have one but that's in
Derbyshire. Bending is done by hand, the 3003 Versatube from Spruce is
cheap and very soft.
Graham
William Daniell wrote:
>
> Solid aluminum sounds somewhat of a challenge - bending and all that. Is
> it?
>
> Teflon lined...what would be a typical brand?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
> Singleton
> Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 05:28
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: fuel hose
>
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> Will
> the best solution is either solid aluminum or teflon lined. The latter
> is more expensive.
> Graham
>
> William Daniell wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I see rather belatedly that the fabric co vered fuel hose is not
>>recommended for installation. Is this so?
>>
>>
>>
>>If so what is recommended? What is the most durable stuff (for
>>trigear)? I plan to run on AVGAS.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 4
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>the best solution is either solid aluminum
Solid Aluminium sounds a bit too challenging to me.
Ali' tube on the other hand......... ;)
Simon
Do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: FW: fuel hose |
Will,
I used standard metal break line in the fuse and automotive fuel
injection hose to make up the connections, firewall forward and to the
pumps, valves and filters. No problems in 260+ hours. Under the cowl,
I ran the hoses through heat shielding used for race cars...
Jeff - Baby Blue
William Daniell wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I see rather belatedly that the fabric co vered fuel hose is not
> recommended for installation. Is this so?
>
>
>
> If so what is recommended? What is the most durable stuff (for
> trigear)? I plan to run on AVGAS.
>
>
>
> Will
>
> *
>
>
> *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | RE: FW: fuel hose |
Will,
Aeroquip 666 is the industry standard in carbon-lined, teflon hose.
It isn't cheep. And is isn't particularly light. But it's forever
stuff, you only put it in once. And it's a lot tougher than anything
else out there.
See Aircraft Spruce for details.
BTW, the teflon hose used in fuel systems MUST be carbon lined or the
static electricity generated by the fuel flowing through the line
will eventually burn tiny pin-hole leaks in the hose.
Good building and great flying,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(85%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch
system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in,
Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar
in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear
complete. Mod 72 complete. Working in - 24 Instrument Panel, 25
Electrical, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37
Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon
Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived and is being installed.
Installing the ROTAX 914, again.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
Message 7
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| Subject: | Araldite 420 / Epibond 420 / Redux |
I got mine from gladys martinez in Miami who was very efficient
gmartinez@aeropia.com
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
DuaneFamly@aol.com
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 21:45
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Araldite 420 / Epibond 420 / Redux
I got my Araldite 420 A/B from Graco also. But the number I have is 817
535-3200
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
_____
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from
AOL at <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339> AOL.com.
Message 8
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Is that avgas or mo gas - I understand it makes a differece
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff B
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 10:51
Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: fuel hose
Will,
I used standard metal break line in the fuse and automotive fuel injection
hose to make up the connections, firewall forward and to the pumps, valves
and filters. No problems in 260+ hours. Under the cowl, I ran the hoses
through heat shielding used for race cars...
Jeff - Baby Blue
William Daniell wrote:
I see rather belatedly that the fabric co vered fuel hose is not recommended
for installation. Is this so?
If so what is recommended? What is the most durable stuff (for trigear)? I
plan to run on AVGAS.
Will
_____
Message 9
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Ok ok I get it
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Simon Smith
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 10:15
Subject: RE: Europa-List: FW: fuel hose
>the best solution is either solid aluminum
Solid Aluminium sounds a bit too challenging to me.
Ali' tube on the other hand......... ;)
Simon
Do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: RE: FW: fuel hose |
Bob
thanks for pointing that out, I learnt something new today!
Graham
rlborger wrote:
> Will,
>
> BTW, the teflon hose used in fuel systems MUST be carbon lined or the
> static electricity generated by the fuel flowing through the line will
> eventually burn tiny pin-hole leaks in the hose.
>
>
> Good building and great flying,
> Bob Borger
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: FW: fuel hose |
Automotive fuel injection hose works well. It is compatible with auto
fuel and is very tough.Many others have used this including myself. I
believe Europa when it had its location in Florida used it when they
built up the quick build cockpit modules. Bob Berupe could confirm this.
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: William Daniell
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:01 PM
Subject: Europa-List: FW: fuel hose
I see rather belatedly that the fabric co vered fuel hose is not
recommended for installation. Is this so?
If so what is recommended? What is the most durable stuff (for
trigear)? I plan to run on AVGAS.
Will
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: FW: fuel hose |
I run both. No problems, yet. The drag racing guys use the same hose
with Avgas all the time, without problems...
Jeff
William Daniell wrote:
>
> Is that avgas or mo gas -- I understand it makes a differece
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeff B
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 18, 2007 10:51
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: FW: fuel hose
>
>
>
> Will,
>
> I used standard metal break line in the fuse and automotive fuel
> injection hose to make up the connections, firewall forward and to the
> pumps, valves and filters. No problems in 260+ hours. Under the
> cowl, I ran the hoses through heat shielding used for race cars...
>
> Jeff - Baby Blue
>
> William Daniell wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I see rather belatedly that the fabric co vered fuel hose is not
> recommended for installation. Is this so?
>
>
>
> If so what is recommended? What is the most durable stuff (for
> trigear)? I plan to run on AVGAS.
>
>
>
> Will
>
> * *
> * *
> * *
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> * *
> * *
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> * *
> *
>
>
> *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RE: FW: fuel hose |
How about teflon lined water hoses for high temp. Will pin holes form there
as well?
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: FW: fuel hose
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> Bob
> thanks for pointing that out, I learnt something new today!
> Graham
>
> rlborger wrote:
>> Will,
>>
>> BTW, the teflon hose used in fuel systems MUST be carbon lined or the
>> static electricity generated by the fuel flowing through the line will
>> eventually burn tiny pin-hole leaks in the hose.
>>
>>
>> Good building and great flying,
>> Bob Borger
> Graham Singleton
>
> Tel: +441629820187
> Mob: +447739582005
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: RE: FW: fuel hose |
Here is an article on static and teflon hose used in aircraft.
www.sacskyranch.com/statichose.htm
"How about teflon lined water hoses for high temp. Will pin holes form
there as well?"
I would use conductive teflon in airplanes if there is a reasonable flow
happening.
I will be using unlined teflon for the fuel side of differential pressure
sender on 914 and remote oil sender on same.
There will be little flow in these lines.
Just a side note, I will fill the fuel line with 100LL, so when it turns
20 years old hopeful it is not all varnish.
Will also fill oil line with oil so when pressure happens there is not air
in there that will be squeezed and have water come out and do nothing good
to sender.
Ron Parigoris
Message 15
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| Subject: | 914: fuel over airbox pressure |
Hi team,
Does the UMA transducer connect between the airbox and the carburettor feed line
or between the airbox and the fuel feed on the pressure regulator? In other
words: before or after the pressure regulator?
In the rotax doc an after pressure regulator setup is shown as a desired, not supplied
option, however i assume that it is more interesting to see a warning
about fuel pressure drop before the regulator runs out of pressure to regulate
:-)
Kind Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure |
Jos
I've taken mine from pre regulator - not flying yet though.
Paul
G-GIDY
On 18 Mar 2007, at 18:25, josok wrote:
>
> Hi team,
> Does the UMA transducer connect between the airbox and the
> carburettor feed line or between the airbox and the fuel feed on
> the pressure regulator? In other words: before or after the
> pressure regulator?
>
> In the rotax doc an after pressure regulator setup is shown as a
> desired, not supplied option, however i assume that it is more
> interesting to see a warning about fuel pressure drop before the
> regulator runs out of pressure to regulate :-)
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | 914: fuel over airbox pressure |
Jos,
The only measure of fuel pressure on the 914 that Rotax mentions is that the
px to the carbs should be 2-5psi over airbox px. That sort of dictates that
you should measure the airbox px and the carb inlet px (ie between the
regulator and the carb).
I have seen somewhere in the Rotax manuals a picture of a special banjo bolt
and hose end to pick off the regulator output px (but I can't remember
where!). I also have a very vague memory that this should only be taken from
one particular side of the regulator?????
Simon
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok
Sent: 18 March 2007 18:25
Subject: Europa-List: 914: fuel over airbox pressure
Hi team,
Does the UMA transducer connect between the airbox and the carburettor feed
line or between the airbox and the fuel feed on the pressure regulator? In
other words: before or after the pressure regulator?
In the rotax doc an after pressure regulator setup is shown as a desired,
not supplied option, however i assume that it is more interesting to see a
warning about fuel pressure drop before the regulator runs out of pressure
to regulate :-)
Kind Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 18
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| Subject: | 914: fuel over airbox pressure |
Just to add, see page 69 of the current installation manual on the Rotax
website.
Simon
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok
Sent: 18 March 2007 18:25
Subject: Europa-List: 914: fuel over airbox pressure
Hi team,
Does the UMA transducer connect between the airbox and the carburettor feed
line or between the airbox and the fuel feed on the pressure regulator? In
other words: before or after the pressure regulator?
In the rotax doc an after pressure regulator setup is shown as a desired,
not supplied option, however i assume that it is more interesting to see a
warning about fuel pressure drop before the regulator runs out of pressure
to regulate :-)
Kind Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure |
Simon Smith a crit :
> That sort of dictates that
> you should measure the airbox px and the carb inlet px (ie between the
> regulator and the carb)....
>
Hi all,
The pressure on the upper side of the regulator (IN and OUT connections)
is the fuel-to-carb pressure.
The pressure on the lower side of the regulator is the airbox pressure.
See installation manual or
http://contrails.free.fr/engine_regul_en.php
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure |
Gilles & all
I'm not familiar with 914 but I do remember that the return flow from
the regulator must be unrestricted otherwise the back pressure will
cause rich mixture? Because of the high flow rate required with all
pumps running the return pipe needs to be at least -6 size.
Hope I'm not confusing the issue
Graham
Gilles Thesee wrote:
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> Simon Smith a crit :
>
>> That sort of dictates that
>> you should measure the airbox px and the carb inlet px (ie between the
>> regulator and the carb)....
>
> Hi all,
>
> The pressure on the upper side of the regulator (IN and OUT connections)
> is the fuel-to-carb pressure.
> The pressure on the lower side of the regulator is the airbox pressure.
> See installation manual or
> http://contrails.free.fr/engine_regul_en.php
>
> Hope this helps,
> Regards,
> Gilles
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure |
Graham Singleton a crit :
> I'm not familiar with 914 but I do remember that the return flow from
> the regulator must be unrestricted otherwise the back pressure will
> cause rich mixture? Because of the high flow rate required with all
> pumps running the return pipe needs to be at least -6 size.
Graham,
You're right.
I recently conducted some tests to verify this point. I pressurized the
regulator to the max 1,3 bar absolute, while running the pump. All the
flow was by-passed by the regulator, with no problem to maintain the
specified ambient + 0.25 bar.
While I was perched on a ladder, doing the pressurizing with a U-tube,
my buddy sitting on the wing forgot to switch the different pumps, so
some additional tests are necessary.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 22
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| Subject: | Outriggers - fitting |
All,
After searching thru 245 postings on outriggers, I find no discussion
of a problem I'm having as I trial-fit my outriggers.
Namely, that...although the build manual describes simply sliding the
nylon tubes into the SS wheel forks...I'm finding that the wheel forks
are simply too small to accept the nylon tubes. My attempts to reduce
the diameter of the tubes by rotating them against my stationary belt
sander only succeeds tin roughing up the surface and...due to friction
heat...the nylon seems to expand rather than diminish in size.
My next notion is to chuck the nylon into a wood lathe and turn it down
til I have a snug and smooth fit.
Is my problem unique?...and if not, can anyone share their solution?
Fred
Message 23
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| Subject: | 914: fuel over airbox pressure ----now question of |
restrictor in return to tank line.
Hi! Gilles/Graham
This thread has suddenly "rattled my cage"! I remember that with my
Jabiru 3300 installation and the Petrol King Regulator I had to include
a Europa Part FS 01 restrictor in the return to tank line and understood
from Andy Draper (I think) that this was necessary to maintain priority
to the carb supply.
However now I'm planning the 914 system for the new engine (when
Rotax/Skydrive honour me with it's delivery!) and I notice on the Europa
Instructions/fuel flow circuit there's no mention of the return line
restrictor.
Can I take it that adequate fuel flow to the carbs will ensue even
though the restrictor is now deleted?
I will be using 8mm bore pipe throughout supply and return.
Regards
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: 18 March 2007 21:34
Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914: fuel over airbox pressure
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Graham Singleton a crit :
> I'm not familiar with 914 but I do remember that the return flow from
> the regulator must be unrestricted otherwise the back pressure will
> cause rich mixture? Because of the high flow rate required with all
> pumps running the return pipe needs to be at least -6 size.
Graham,
You're right.
I recently conducted some tests to verify this point. I pressurized the
regulator to the max 1,3 bar absolute, while running the pump. All the
flow was by-passed by the regulator, with no problem to maintain the
specified ambient + 0.25 bar.
While I was perched on a ladder, doing the pressurizing with a U-tube,
my buddy sitting on the wing forgot to switch the different pumps, so
some additional tests are necessary.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 24
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Hi Will,
You are correct. The factory supplied fuel hose with fabric cover is not
recommended. I have had 3 instances now where the hose has cracked under
a hose clamp with resultant leak. With the fabric cover, a small leak is
difficult to find since the fuel wicks into the cover and evaporates.
I have had no problems since I replaced mine with SAE 30R7 fuel hose
designed for carburettor systems and which has mid-wall reinforcement.
This hose is available in the US at stores such as NAPA or Autozone in
1/4 in.(6.3 mm) and 5/16 in. (8 mm) sizes. I use 100LL Avgas.
Be aware that if you use auto fuel, the fuel can contain a wide range of
aromatics, additives, etc. which can affect the hose life. Therefore, it
would probably be wise to use 'fuel injection' SAE 30R9 hose which has
an elastomer liner to minimise permeation and deterioration. See
http://www.gates.com/common/downloads/files/Gates/brochure/TechTipsForm.pdf
for more information. As you might expect, the SAE 30R9 hose is more
expensive.
Cheers, John
N262WF, mono XS, 912S
Mooresville, North Carolina
***************
From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
Subject: Europa-List: FW: fuel hose
I see rather belatedly that the fabric co vered fuel hose is not recommended
for installation. Is this so?
If so what is recommended? What is the most durable stuff (for trigear)? I
plan to run on AVGAS. Will
*****************
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: FW: fuel hose |
We did use the fuel injection hose exclusively on the 914's due to
higher fuel pressures but it does provide extra benefits being
compatible with all fuels, good abrasion resistance and ability to make
small radius without kinking. Certainly aluminum lines are the industry
standard and preferable IMHO but require a bit of extra patience on
installation. Teflon lines are great but difficult to work with in
tight places. Choosing any of the above will make a safe and reliable
fuel system.
Bob Berube
Flight Crafters
5048 Airport Rd.
Zephyrhills, FL. 33542
813 779-1156
813 695-1120 cell
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Rehn
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: fuel hose
Automotive fuel injection hose works well. It is compatible with auto
fuel and is very tough.Many others have used this including myself. I
believe Europa when it had its location in Florida used it when they
built up the quick build cockpit modules. Bob Berupe could confirm this.
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: William Daniell
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:01 PM
Subject: Europa-List: FW: fuel hose
I see rather belatedly that the fabric co vered fuel hose is not
recommended for installation. Is this so?
If so what is recommended? What is the most durable stuff (for
trigear)? I plan to run on AVGAS.
Will
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure |
UMA gauges makes a gauge specifically for measuring the difference between
the fuel pressure and air box pressure. The difference in pressure ( fuel
pressure above air pressure) must be between 2.18 and 5.08 PSI. This gauge
measures the difference which is much easier than using two gauges and doing
the math. The fuel pressure is measured at the starboard outlet of the fuel
pressure regulator. A banjo bolt fitting is connected at that point to form
a T. The air pressure is connected in the line that goes to the airbox
pressure sender via another T. Both of these lines are connected to the UMA
sender which in turn electrically sends the info to the gauge on your panel.
The gauge has range markings on it for the 914. I have had mine for two +
years and it works great and was easy to install. Check out spruce for more
details http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/umadiff1.php
Jerry
>
>
>
Message 27
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I used Trident "Barrier Lined" Type A1 Marine Fuel Hose #365
Look at
http://www.tridentmarine.com/stage/fuel.htm
I had many problems with the fabric covered Europa supplied fuel hose. Fuel
smell number one!!
Trident "Barrier Lined" Type A1 Marine Fuel Hose #365
Trident Barrier Lined A1 Fuel Hose (Distribution, Return, Vent, and
Transfer) for both gasoline (petrol) and diesel (including alcohol blends).
Exceeds ABYC H-24 & H-33, SAE J1527, ISO 7840, & USCG Type A1; and is NMMA
Type Accepted & CE certified. Built with best fuel, fire and age resistant
formulation, 2 spiral reinforcement and unique "Barrier Liner" on inside
surface of tube so fuel is not in direct contact with rubber. Provides
extraordinary resistance to fuel permeation and aging, as well as fire,
heat, cold, and ozone. Also good
Bend-ability.
5 YEAR WARRANTY
Cheers,
Tim
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch, 8052
New Zealand
Ph +64 3 3515166
Mobile 021 0640221
ward.t@xtra.co.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "John & Paddy Wigney" <johnwigney@alltel.net>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 11:36 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel Hose
> <johnwigney@alltel.net>
>
> Hi Will,
>
> You are correct. The factory supplied fuel hose with fabric cover is not
> recommended. I have had 3 instances now where the hose has cracked under a
> hose clamp with resultant leak. With the fabric cover, a small leak is
> difficult to find since the fuel wicks into the cover and evaporates.
>
> I have had no problems since I replaced mine with SAE 30R7 fuel hose
> designed for carburettor systems and which has mid-wall reinforcement.
> This hose is available in the US at stores such as NAPA or Autozone in 1/4
> in.(6.3 mm) and 5/16 in. (8 mm) sizes. I use 100LL Avgas.
>
> Be aware that if you use auto fuel, the fuel can contain a wide range of
> aromatics, additives, etc. which can affect the hose life. Therefore, it
> would probably be wise to use 'fuel injection' SAE 30R9 hose which has an
> elastomer liner to minimise permeation and deterioration. See
> http://www.gates.com/common/downloads/files/Gates/brochure/TechTipsForm.pdf
> for more information. As you might expect, the SAE 30R9 hose is more
> expensive.
>
> Cheers, John
>
> N262WF, mono XS, 912S
> Mooresville, North Carolina
>
> ***************
> From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
> Subject: Europa-List: FW: fuel hose
> I see rather belatedly that the fabric co vered fuel hose is not
> recommended
> for installation. Is this so?
> If so what is recommended? What is the most durable stuff (for trigear)?
> I
> plan to run on AVGAS. Will
> *****************
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure ----now question |
of restrictor in return to tank line.
Yes. That should work Bob, but always get a second opinion!
Graham
R.C.Harrison wrote:
>
> Hi! Gilles/Graham
> This thread has suddenly "rattled my cage"!
> Can I take it that adequate fuel flow to the carbs will ensue even
> though the restrictor is now deleted?
> I will be using 8mm bore pipe throughout supply and return.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: 914: fuel over airbox pressure |
Hello Jos
Sorry I did understand exact wording of your question, but will describe
what you need to know and do.
The 914 uses a turbocharger to squeeze air molecules together at a greater
than ambient pressure. Unlike a normal aspirated engine, if you were to
vent the float bowl to ambient pressure on a turbo charged engine and
began to boost above ambient pressure, air would in fact flow the wrong
way through the carb jets and starve the motor for fuel.
Thus on a 914 the float bowl is vented instead of to ambient pressure, to
airbox pressure. When not in boost airbox will be close to ambient, when
boosting it will go above ambient pressure.
OK so now we have at least bowl pressure following turbo output.
Now you need greater fuel pressure than float bowl pressure (which is the
same as airbox pressure) to be able to fill float bowl with fuel. This is
the job of the fuel pressure regulator. You want between approx 2 and 5
PSI fuel pressure (absolute) over airbox pressure (absolute).
In absolute terms, you need your fuel pumps to work harder in thinner air
than in thicker air. It is very possible that filters and pumps can
provide at 2K, but not at 8K. If pressure can not be kept up, you are in
danger of having your motor playing silent night. Turning on second pump
can help, going down in altitude can help, and dropping manifold pressure,
which will drop airbox pressure will help. Remember a stuck wastegate can
overboost a 914. The fuel pressure regulator can not keep up if you go too
much over redline boost pressure. Thus you can run out of fuel on take off
in a very bad position. If you are not between 2 and 5 when rolling, abort
take off. If you get airborne, and have engine quit, see if reducing
manifold pressure helps get back differential of at least 2 PSI, if it
does,you can probably fly pretty safe at a reduced power till you can
land.
An awful lot of words. Simple way to follow is to have a differential
gauge and keep it between 2 and 5.
I hope the following will answer your question:
You need to plumb 2 lines to your differential sender, 1) fuel pressure
and 2) airbox pressure.
1) Fuel pressure. You need to connect to one of your carburetor fuel
supply lines that run between the fuel pressure regulator and the
carburetors. You can purchase a double length banjo bolt from Rotax and
extra crush washer and stack another banjo (run to your sender) on the
output of the fuel pressure regulator. Don't reuse old crush washers.
(that said when you you are stuck somewhere you can heat real hot with
blow torch or cigarette lighter and quench crush washers in oil to soften
them, then do figure 8s on a piece of wet dry sandpaper on a flat surface
to make them flat, get to 600 grit should do it). I am using Earls -3
teflon hose and will fill lines with 100LL. Don't want 20 years old mogas
in there after a while
2) Now for the other side of the sender. Airbox pressure. You can do this
2 ways. You can purchase an extra nipple for a spare plug in your airbox
and run that to sender. If you don't have an extra hole, you can T to the
fuel pressure regulator line or the actual airbox pressure side of the
enrichment solenoid.
Or you could do as I am going to do. There are 2 pressures in the airbox.
Actual pressure (Port most side of airbox) and Impact air pressure ( Think
starboard most side of airbox). Impact air pressure is a bit more than
Actual airbox pressure. It is used to increase the float bowl pressure a
bit more to in fact allow the engine to run a bit richer. If TCU
determines that boost is OK to apply, above 108% power the wastegate will
close, and the enrichment solenoid will in fact plumb impact air to the
carburetor float bowls, instead of plumbing actual airbox air. This will
give a richer mixture that will greatly aid in cooling engine that is
huffing and puffing quite a bit harder than if run at 100% power.
I will use a injected molded 316 Stainless steel "T" from www.mcmaster.com
to take instead of actual airbox air, the pressure going to the
floatbowls. This pressure will be actual airbox air up to ~108% throttle,
and impact air if the solenoid is in fact working. I don't think there
will be a tremendous difference between the 2, but I am hoping I can see a
flicker of the differential needle when the solenoid switches from actual
to impact. This "T" needs to go somewhere between output of the enrichment
solenoid and the carb float bowls. Be very careful not to break the nipple
on the enrichment solenoid, it is plastic. If there was a leak going to
carb, this T should indicate higher than normal differential pressure that
you probably would not see if you were plumbed to the airbox. Running lean
in during war Emergency Power (115%)is not very conducive for long engine
life. Just a note, I don't like the white plastic Ts Rotax uses and
changing to the stainless ones as described, and since I need to re wrap
the hoses, will not put back the cheap stuff Rotax provides but Teflon
spiral wrap also obtainable from www.mcmaster.com
Try burning a piece of the Rotax supplied spiral wrap, then try teflon.
Bob as far as your question, you want as little restriction on return flow
flow of the fuel pressure regulator. Do not consider a restrictor. If
restrict a bit too much you could easily exceed the max 5PSI especial in
thick air. Parallel pump design best check that when both pumps are
running in thick air you do not exceed 5PSI. Rotax in their manual tells
you how to measure restriction of return.
Differential pressure is what you are interested in on a 914. A restricted
filter or gasculator, or plugged pre pump filter will restrict flow. If
you put your thumb over output of pump in one of the mentioned conditions
you probably have great pressure. The way the fuel pressure regulator
works, is it needs a specific flow for its internal designed restrictor to
restrict enough for "Crack" pressure to be achieved and begin flowing
fuel to carbs. Differential gauge can give you heads up to fuel
starvation. Thinner air, pumps worked harder, failure will most like be
not enough pressure. Thick air and 2 pumps running in parallel, or
restricting return line will most like fail in that more than 5PSI going
to carbs.
Ron P.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Outriggers - fitting |
> Namely, that...although the build manual describes simply sliding the
> nylon tubes into the SS wheel forks...I'm finding that the
> wheel forks
> are simply too small to accept the nylon tubes. My attempts to reduce
> the diameter of the tubes by rotating them against my stationary belt
> sander only succeeds tin roughing up the surface and...due to
> friction
> heat...the nylon seems to expand rather than diminish in size.
>
> My next notion is to chuck the nylon into a wood lathe and
> turn it down
> til I have a snug and smooth fit.
>
> Is my problem unique?...and if not, can anyone share their solution?
>
> Fred
Fred,
Our outrigger rods were too large to fit into the sockets on both ends, so I
had a friend with a metal lathe turn the ends down for a snug fit. I don't
think abrasives or files are practical solutions. The simplest (though
maybe not quickest) solution is probably to get properly-sized rods from
Europa. Other factory-supplied rods we later tested in our outrigger
hardware fit just fine, so the problem was clearly in the original rods that
we received with out kit (8 years ago).
Dave DeFord
N135TD
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Outriggers - fitting |
Fred,
The latest nylon legs supplied by Europa have the ends already turned down
to fit the sockets at both ends. I have just replaced mine at 1,100 hrs,
because the old ones have developed a permanent set to bend rearwards which
makes ground looping easier to happen in a cross wind.
Regards,
William
----- Original Message -----
From: "David DeFord" <davedeford@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 5:24 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Outriggers - fitting
>
>> Namely, that...although the build manual describes simply sliding the
>> nylon tubes into the SS wheel forks...I'm finding that the
>> wheel forks
>> are simply too small to accept the nylon tubes. My attempts to reduce
>> the diameter of the tubes by rotating them against my stationary belt
>> sander only succeeds tin roughing up the surface and...due to
>> friction
>> heat...the nylon seems to expand rather than diminish in size.
>>
>> My next notion is to chuck the nylon into a wood lathe and
>> turn it down
>> til I have a snug and smooth fit.
>>
>> Is my problem unique?...and if not, can anyone share their solution?
>>
>> Fred
>
> Fred,
>
> Our outrigger rods were too large to fit into the sockets on both ends, so
> I
> had a friend with a metal lathe turn the ends down for a snug fit. I
> don't
> think abrasives or files are practical solutions. The simplest (though
> maybe not quickest) solution is probably to get properly-sized rods from
> Europa. Other factory-supplied rods we later tested in our outrigger
> hardware fit just fine, so the problem was clearly in the original rods
> that
> we received with out kit (8 years ago).
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
>
>
> --
> 16/03/2007 12:12
>
>
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