Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:48 AM - Re: fiberglass cloth (Karl Heindl)
2. 12:56 AM - Re: ceramic coated exhaust (Gilles Thesee)
3. 03:25 AM - Re: fiberglass cloth (Graham Singleton)
4. 01:02 PM - Re: fiberglass cloth (Dean Seitz)
5. 04:55 PM - Re: fiberglass cloth (Graham Singleton)
6. 06:10 PM - Re: fiberglass cloth (Bob)
7. 06:39 PM - Re: fiberglass cloth (wdaniell@etb.net.co)
8. 08:09 PM - Re: fiberglass cloth (Alan Burrows)
Message 1
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| Subject: | fiberglass cloth |
I bought some of that 'Rutan' cloth recently and it seems to be exactly the
same as the kit supplied stuff.
Karl
>From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
>Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 20:18:56 -0500
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>I need something available in the USA - so the conclusion is that the Rutan
>cloth is acceptable?
>
>I don' understand the technical aspect but I am assuming that you need the
>same mechanical properties as the original which presumably means the same
>chemical composition, same orientation and same weight of fibers??
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
>Singleton
>Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 13:45
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
>
><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
>
>Rutan chose it because it was used for gliders in Germany. Probably
>still is, 92125, it's made by Interglas and it's a 2 by 2 twill (for
>drape). The UNI we use is 92145.
>I recently ( 4 years ago!) bought half a roll of BID from a supplier in
>Germany but haven't yet re found the details. Price was very good
>compared to UK prices.
>Graham
>
>EuropaXSA276@aol.com wrote:
> > I was told by Europa some time ago that the closest thing for the
> > factory BID was the Rutan cloth RA7725
> >
> > Brian Skelly
> > Europa XS TriGear #A276
> > North Texas USA
> > You can see my build photos at:
> > http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS
> >
> >
>
>
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: ceramic coated exhaust |
Jerry Rehn a crit :
> Has anyone ceramic coated their exhaust system? Jet Hot
> www.jet-hot.com is suppose to reduce temperatures about 200 F.
> Apparently is widely used among high performance racing. Could this
> help reduce cowl temps without causing other isues?
We had the exhaust pipes coated in the US (regular Rotax 914 pipes).
Nice black coating, looks great when new. After 120 hours, the look is
still correct, but some scales are peeling off in some area.
200 F seems somewhat optimistic to me.
Considering physics, it sure should improve temperatures a bit, but the
pipes still run dull red when running up at night, and I would not rely
on it to significantly reduce cowl temps.
FWIW,
Regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass cloth |
Karl
it probably is, but there was some suspect cloth around a few years ago.
The important thing is the weight, 280gms/sq meter, the sizing,
(treatment to make the resin wet out the cloth properly) and the weave ,
which is 2 by 2 twill.
Graham
Karl Heindl wrote:
>
>
> I bought some of that 'Rutan' cloth recently and it seems to be exactly
> the same as the kit supplied stuff.
>
> Karl
>
> 005
Message 4
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| Subject: | fiberglass cloth |
When I got my kit europa had the cloth sent to me from Aircraft Spruce. I
don't remember what it was exactly but a call to someone at europa 04 should
be able to tell you sinve they had it shipped from there.
Dean Seitz
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
Thanks,
I need something available in the USA - so the conclusion is that the Rutan
cloth is acceptable?
I don' understand the technical aspect but I am assuming that you need the
same mechanical properties as the original which presumably means the same
chemical composition, same orientation and same weight of fibers??
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 13:45
Subject: Re: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Rutan chose it because it was used for gliders in Germany. Probably
still is, 92125, it's made by Interglas and it's a 2 by 2 twill (for
drape). The UNI we use is 92145.
I recently ( 4 years ago!) bought half a roll of BID from a supplier in
Germany but haven't yet re found the details. Price was very good
compared to UK prices.
Graham
EuropaXSA276@aol.com wrote:
> I was told by Europa some time ago that the closest thing for the
> factory BID was the Rutan cloth RA7725
>
> Brian Skelly
> Europa XS TriGear #A276
> North Texas USA
> You can see my build photos at:
> http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass cloth |
William
I never realized you were in Colombia, I remember being at SnF the day
Ivan sold three kits to a Comobian family, farmers I think.
Interglas are in Ulm, Germany. www.pd-interglas-technologies-ag.de/
You might be able to buy from these people,Streifly, suppliers to the
glider industry. Interglas are probably too big for us.
http://streifly.de/Preise4-00.htm, I found them most helpful and good
price too.
I would be reluctant to use any old cloth, try and get one aproved by
either Rutan, (the Messiah {;-) or Europa. THe critical thing is the
chemiocal sizing of the yarn to enhance the wetting by the resin.
My favourite Guru is Gary Hunter, he was Bruce Bohannon's crew chief on
Pushy Galor and still is AFAIK. Very generous with his experience, he
worked for Shell Resins a while ago.
Graham
I've copied one of Gary's emails for you, I don't think he'll mind. As I
said, a generous man.
Technically, in the context of our canard aviation community, there is
absolutely no difference between what has been referred to as a
non-structural epoxy and a structural one. They are all from the same
molecules.
Numerous people had asked Rutan Aircraft Factory about using West
Systems Epoxy. After all, it was readily available in most parts of
country - and the world for that matter. Well, we all know that Burt
Rutan is rather liability conscious, and if a resin system had not been
tested and flown in an actual prototype or part of some sort, it was not
approved for his aircraft designs - PERIOD. So, if I recall correctly,
one of Rutan's Canard Pusher newsletters, responded to the builder
inquiries and West Systems was dubbed a "non-structural" epoxy. It was
OK for making micro fill and wheel pants and such. But, no major
structural components.
Furthermore, the makers of West System (Gougeon Brothers - pronounce
goo-zhan)did not seem to promote the use of the West Systems product
line for aircraft construction. Gougeon Brothers is a customer of
mine. So, about 3-5 years ago, I quizzed them on why this was so. They
said that in years past their insurance underwriter did not want the
liability associated with homebuilt aircraft. The product was intended
for the boat building, repair and restoration market. However, they
had recently secured another insurance underwriter that did not have
such reservations about homebuilt aircraft. In fact, their website had
a photo gallery of the many different projects their customers had
completed using the West Systems epoxy, and many aircraft were included
- mostly wood / fiberglass aircraft, like the KR2s, and Ospreys and
such. I don't recall seeing any Vari-Eze's or Long-EZ's. Today, if you
visit the Gougeon's West Systems home page http://www.westsystems.com ,
there are numerous examples of all composite structural articles being
made from the West Systems product line.
At about the time I was quizzing Gougeon about the West Systems epoxy,
they were introducing their new Pro-Set epoxy product line. Apparently,
they had recognized a new market was emerging and decided to put their
best foot forward. This product line was developed for more demanding
end-uses including all composite aircraft. Rutan did approve one of
their early formulations for the construction of his plans designs -
the Pros-Set 125 / 229. The website for Pro-Set shows a photo of the
Proteus that was made from Pro-Set resins formulations.
http://www.prosetepoxy.com Note the statements about post cures in
their literature.
Frankly, I cannot understand why anyone would pay so much for the
convenience of being able to buy an epoxy at the local marine or auto
supply. West Systems is at least $3.00 / lb. more expensive than the
most costly alternative "structural epoxy". But, some people drive
Fords, and some people drive Mercurys.
One thing is for certain. Gougeon Brothers is perhaps the industry
benchmark for technical support. Their on-line literature, books,
manuals, and newsletters are top notch - excellent reading. They even
sell ratio pumps for their Pro-Set resin systems.
Gary Hunter
Technical Service Representative EPOXY RESINS TECHNICAL INQUIRY
RESOLUTION PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS
Toll Free in North America - 800-832-3766
International - 281-544-6010
Facsimile - 817-421-7515
Email - tec.epon@resins.com
William Daniell wrote:
>
> Interglass is based where?
>
> Is there any "standard" means of describing cloth?
>
> Does 92125 mean anything or is it a part number?
>
> As usual my eternal problem is getting stuff in sunny Bogota!!
>
> For example the cloth that Andy suggested is ACS part number 7781 described
> as "8.92 oz per sq yard medium weight standard industrial cloth thread count
> 60x54 strength 350x330 lb/in" is this a standard way of describing cloth?
>
> Would any cloth fulfilling these characteristics do?
>
> Will
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
> Singleton
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 13:45
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
>
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
>
> Rutan chose it because it was used for gliders in Germany. Probably
> still is, 92125, it's made by Interglas and it's a 2 by 2 twill (for
> drape). The UNI we use is 92145.
> I recently ( 4 years ago!) bought half a roll of BID from a supplier in
> Germany but haven't yet re found the details. Price was very good
> compared to UK prices.
> Graham
>
> EuropaXSA276@aol.com wrote:
>
>>I was told by Europa some time ago that the closest thing for the
>>factory BID was the Rutan cloth RA7725
>>
>>Brian Skelly
>>Europa XS TriGear #A276
>>North Texas USA
>>You can see my build photos at:
>>http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass cloth |
Most of the cloth used on the Europa's sold in North America was the Rutan
Cloth. To my knowledge every composite kit manufactured in the US that has
wet layups uses the Rutan cloth , BID as well as UNI.
As Graham mentioned, a number of years ago there was another supplier other
than Aircraft Spruce and Wicks selling BID. It was not approved for
aircraft and finally put out of business. If you order from Spruce or
Wicks, you will get the correct BID.
Spruce part number for BID: RA7725
Spruce part number for UNI: RA7715
Bob Berube
Flight Crafters
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Seitz" <daseitz@cfl.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 4:01 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
>
> When I got my kit europa had the cloth sent to me from Aircraft Spruce. I
> don't remember what it was exactly but a call to someone at europa 04
> should
> be able to tell you sinve they had it shipped from there.
>
> Dean Seitz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
> Daniell
> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 9:19 PM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> I need something available in the USA - so the conclusion is that the
> Rutan
> cloth is acceptable?
>
> I don' understand the technical aspect but I am assuming that you need the
> same mechanical properties as the original which presumably means the same
> chemical composition, same orientation and same weight of fibers??
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
> Singleton
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 13:45
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
>
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
>
> Rutan chose it because it was used for gliders in Germany. Probably
> still is, 92125, it's made by Interglas and it's a 2 by 2 twill (for
> drape). The UNI we use is 92145.
> I recently ( 4 years ago!) bought half a roll of BID from a supplier in
> Germany but haven't yet re found the details. Price was very good
> compared to UK prices.
> Graham
>
> EuropaXSA276@aol.com wrote:
>> I was told by Europa some time ago that the closest thing for the
>> factory BID was the Rutan cloth RA7725
>>
>> Brian Skelly
>> Europa XS TriGear #A276
>> North Texas USA
>> You can see my build photos at:
>> http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass cloth |
Thanks appreciate your help
Rutan it is then
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bob" <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
To:<europa-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
Most of the cloth used on the Europa's sold in North America was the Rutan
Cloth. To my knowledge every composite kit manufactured in the US that has
wet layups uses the Rutan cloth , BID as well as UNI.
As Graham mentioned, a number of years ago there was another supplier other
than Aircraft Spruce and Wicks selling BID. It was not approved for
aircraft and finally put out of business. If you order from Spruce or
Wicks, you will get the correct BID.
Spruce part number for BID: RA7725
Spruce part number for UNI: RA7715
Bob Berube
Flight Crafters
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Seitz" <daseitz@cfl.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 4:01 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
>
> When I got my kit europa had the cloth sent to me from Aircraft Spruce. I
> don't remember what it was exactly but a call to someone at europa 04
> should
> be able to tell you sinve they had it shipped from there.
>
> Dean Seitz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
> Daniell
> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 9:19 PM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> I need something available in the USA - so the conclusion is that the
> Rutan
> cloth is acceptable?
>
> I don' understand the technical aspect but I am assuming that you need the
> same mechanical properties as the original which presumably means the same
> chemical composition, same orientation and same weight of fibers??
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
> Singleton
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 13:45
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
>
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
>
> Rutan chose it because it was used for gliders in Germany. Probably
> still is, 92125, it's made by Interglas and it's a 2 by 2 twill (for
> drape). The UNI we use is 92145.
> I recently ( 4 years ago!) bought half a roll of BID from a supplier in
> Germany but haven't yet re found the details. Price was very good
> compared to UK prices.
> Graham
>
> EuropaXSA276@aol.com wrote:
>> I was told by Europa some time ago that the closest thing for the
>> factory BID was the Rutan cloth RA7725
>>
>> Brian Skelly
>> Europa XS TriGear #A276
>> North Texas USA
>> You can see my build photos at:
>> http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | fiberglass cloth |
Hi Bob
Any news with my fuel leak ?
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sent: 27 March 2007 02:09
Subject: Re: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
Most of the cloth used on the Europa's sold in North America was the Rutan
Cloth. To my knowledge every composite kit manufactured in the US that has
wet layups uses the Rutan cloth , BID as well as UNI.
As Graham mentioned, a number of years ago there was another supplier other
than Aircraft Spruce and Wicks selling BID. It was not approved for
aircraft and finally put out of business. If you order from Spruce or
Wicks, you will get the correct BID.
Spruce part number for BID: RA7725
Spruce part number for UNI: RA7715
Bob Berube
Flight Crafters
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Seitz" <daseitz@cfl.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 4:01 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
>
> When I got my kit europa had the cloth sent to me from Aircraft Spruce. I
> don't remember what it was exactly but a call to someone at europa 04
> should
> be able to tell you sinve they had it shipped from there.
>
> Dean Seitz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
> Daniell
> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 9:19 PM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> I need something available in the USA - so the conclusion is that the
> Rutan
> cloth is acceptable?
>
> I don' understand the technical aspect but I am assuming that you need the
> same mechanical properties as the original which presumably means the same
> chemical composition, same orientation and same weight of fibers??
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
> Singleton
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 13:45
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: fiberglass cloth
>
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
>
> Rutan chose it because it was used for gliders in Germany. Probably
> still is, 92125, it's made by Interglas and it's a 2 by 2 twill (for
> drape). The UNI we use is 92145.
> I recently ( 4 years ago!) bought half a roll of BID from a supplier in
> Germany but haven't yet re found the details. Price was very good
> compared to UK prices.
> Graham
>
> EuropaXSA276@aol.com wrote:
>> I was told by Europa some time ago that the closest thing for the
>> factory BID was the Rutan cloth RA7725
>>
>> Brian Skelly
>> Europa XS TriGear #A276
>> North Texas USA
>> You can see my build photos at:
>> http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
11:07
--
11:07
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