---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/07/07: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:09 AM - Re: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! (Jos Okhuijsen) 2. 03:43 AM - Re: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! (Jos Okhuijsen) 3. 04:07 AM - Re: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! (Jim Brown) 4. 06:13 AM - Re: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! (paul baker) 5. 07:18 AM - Re: Interesting builder's website (SteveD) 6. 08:26 AM - Re: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! (Peter Jeffers) 7. 11:53 AM - Re: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! (Kim Prout) 8. 02:11 PM - Re: Interesting builder's website (Jeff B) 9. 02:17 PM - Re: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! (Graham Singleton) 10. 03:46 PM - Re: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! - Problem Fixed (Richard Schultz) 11. 03:46 PM - Re: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! (SPurpura@aol.com) 12. 05:20 PM - Re: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 13. 09:27 PM - HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! (Erich Trombley) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Hi Rich, Is this late April First joke? If not, i am really worried. Checking magnetos is an item on the checklist. It has been on any checklist of any piston aircraft ever. (Diesels no i know) And is a no-go on failure. Because: If there is no mag-drop on one of the circuits: There is either no spark from that circuit, and you would be flying risking your and other lives on one magneto. Or the wire shorting the magneto with the key is open circuit, or the key switch is broken, which means it won't stop like yours. The open circuit wire and the broken keyswitch could short to ground everywhere, anytime, bringing back to the grace of the one working magneto. On the 914 it's extra bad, because the ignition circuits timing are not the same, and the engine will suffer from flying on one magneto. So before you fly again, check the wiring, check the switch, and correct the situation. > One thing about a Rotax they want to keep flying. I guess the plane just > was > not ready to stop having fun today! :-) It's not funny! Any airplane engine is designed to do just that. Use your checklist, there is a basic one in the Europa Owners manual. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen -- workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane http://www.europaowners.org/kit600 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:42 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Hi Folks, Feel i have to add something more to this. You (and i) are writing in a public forum. Messages are probably stored "forever" I just would hate to read in a NTSB report: "The builder/pilot did not follow his checklist, as he admitted in a public forum" not to speak about the consequences with insurance companies, lawsuits and the like. Please folks, be careful what you put write and publish! Think twice before you hit the send button, My tuppence worth, Regards, Jos Okhuijsen -- workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane http://www.europaowners.org/kit600 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:26 AM PST US From: "Jim Brown" Subject: Re: Europa-List: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! Rich You probably have a broken ignition (mag) wire. The two wires (A and B ) terminate with each wire going to one of the black modules mounted on top of the engine. They normally break where they come out of the braided wire harness just before they enter the ignition modules I just had the same problem last week....2nd time in 700 hours. Jim Brown N398JB ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Schultz To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 11:48 PM Subject: Europa-List: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! Has anyone had problems with a 914 that won't shut down? On a flight today everything started out fine until the first stop, On turning the switch to off the engine kept running, shutting the master off did not help either. The engine just continued to run. Turning off the fuel switch solved the problem. Restarting the engine showed no drop in RPM from one set of plugs. The flight home was uneventful but again the engine would not drop RPM's from one set of plugs (closest to the off position?) and had to have the fuel cut off the kill the engine. I have not done any trouble shooting yet but hope to get back out to the airport tomorrow (Saturday) or early next week to see what has opened up in the system. Anyone have ideas at this early point? One thing about a Rotax they want to keep flying. I guess the plane just was not ready to stop having fun today! J Rich Schultz N262AE 713-703-2156 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:25 AM PST US From: "paul baker" Subject: Re: Europa-List: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! richard; I had the same problem with my 912 on a zodiac 601hd. there is a ground line from the electronic module. If it is not connected or is broken somewhere.you cannot cut it off with the switch. I stopped mine with the choke.The 912 will shake a lot starting and stopping and that can break the ground connection. using the master switch will not affect the engine in any way.It connects the starter to the battery to start the engine,,once started, it will run on its on. paul baker,mooresville nc ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Interesting builder's website From: "SteveD" [quote=Does anyone have a list of websites?[/quote] On www.EuropaOwners.org ( your one stop shopping site for the Europa ) The Upper menu has a links section, in this section there are builders and vendors sections. Forum users can add links to to this page so if you find a interesting builders site or vendor go ahead and add them. Also on EuropaOwners try looking under Memberlist your can sort by which members have websites their not all builders sites, and some are a slice of life, but they let you see what's important to some builders. EuropaOwners is a fairly huge site poke around and explore... Have fun and let me or Jos know if there is a feature you would like to see. I've been working on the software for a group editable parts database that can be viewed and searched from the web. If anyone has an Europa parts list that they made themselves let me know and well see how it works out. Chat Later, Steved Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:10 AM PST US From: "Peter Jeffers" Subject: RE: Europa-List: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! Hi, I have seen similar syptoms many times before on aircraft using a standard ignition s/w as supplied by Aircraft Spruce. Ie a key operated Off Mag 1 Mag 2 start type. Fiddling with the s/w in the off position may stop the engine and prove the fault l,ocation. I hope this helps. Pete Jeffers _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Schultz Sent: 07 April 2007 04:49 Subject: Europa-List: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! Has anyone had problems with a 914 that won=92t shut down? On a flight today everything started out fine until the first stop, On turning the switch to off the engine kept running, shutting the master off did not help either. The engine just continued to run. Turning off the fuel switch solved the problem. Restarting the engine showed no drop in RPM from one set of plugs. The flight home was uneventful but again the engine would not drop RPM=92s from one set of plugs (closest to the off position?) and had to have the fuel cut off the kill the engine. I have not done any trouble shooting yet but hope to get back out to the airport tomorrow (Saturday) or early next week to see what has opened up in the system. Anyone have ideas at this early point? One thing about a Rotax they want to keep flying. I guess the plane just was not ready to stop having fun today! :-) Rich Schultz N262AE 713-703-2156 "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/ Nav igator?Europa-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 06/04/2007 21:30 -- 06/04/2007 21:30 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:53:35 AM PST US From: Kim Prout Subject: Re: Europa-List: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! Hey Rich! It is likely that one of the mag ground wires is not grounding properly when switched off. If you are using the typical ACS type switch (Cessna type) the connections on that unit are confusing. Several builders have had problems identifying the proper terminals on the back of the switc h resulting in exactly what you describe. Use an ohm meter to verify proper grounding. BTW the Rotax will not ignite if cranking RPM is below 220. Just the same, be very careful if hand turning the propeller when any ignition module is still =B3hot=B2 (not grounded). kp ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:11:10 PM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Interesting builder's website I don't have a list, but you can add http://www.N55XS.com to any list you are starting. For what it's worth, it shows the build of Baby Blue... Jeff - Baby Blue 270+ hours... William Daniell wrote: > > Does anyone have a list of websites? > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland & Wilma > Carson > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 14:30 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Interesting builder's website > > > At 2007-04-05 12:08 +0100 Alan wrote: > > >> Once I've finished building I'll trim them down and add some comments >> > > Alan - yes to the comments, no to the trimming, please! Your pictures > are a useful resource to many others besides yourself, so please > don't remove any, if possible. I recognise that there may be server > space constraints, but hope you will find it as easy to leave them > all in place when adding comments as to start deciding which ones to > remove. > > regards > > Rowland > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:17:32 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! Kim Prout wrote: If you are using the typical ACS type switch > (Cessna type) the connections on that unit are confusing. Kim Might I add a couple of points to your advice? Not only is it complicated but this switch has a history of failures. > BTW the Rotax will not ignite if cranking RPM is below 220. Just the > same, be very careful if hand turning the propeller when any ignition > module is still hot (not grounded). > kp There was a guy in the UK who hand started his 912 on a regular basis. Don't ask me why and I never saw it done but it does add emphasis to your warning please give my regards to Paul and Kathy Graham ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:05 PM PST US From: "Richard Schultz" Subject: RE: Europa-List: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! - Problem Fixed Thanks to all who supplied troubleshooting ideas. I ran out to the airport this afternoon armed with good advice on where to start my troubleshooting and my trusty multimeter. After pulling the top cowling free the troubleshooting only took about 2 seconds for my mark I eyeballs to spot the offending cause of the problem. The wire to Mag B had broken clean at the end of its insulation. I have not looked at the crimp connection under a scope or in the sem yet but I am going to assume the crimp was too tight and kinked the wire. 150 hours of vibration caused the strands to fail. I added a little more stress relief to my new crimp connection. This was the connection on the switch side connecting the wire I ran out to the module and not the electronic module or it's provided wiring. The flight after the mag drop was noticed was only 40 miles with 2 airports along the way and a single pilot flight. It was a risk but thought out and as this is an experimental aircraft with and non certified engine the risk seemed marginal enough to allow the flight to continue. Only one spark is needed to keep the plane going and in my case the problem was not in fear of the engine stopping in flight but how I was going to stop it once back on the ground. Thanks to all for the troubleshooting tips and ideas. Always a good form full of hints and good information. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:07 PM PST US From: SPurpura@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! You probably have a broken mag wire/bad connection, thus one side of the ignition is hot all the time and no rpm change when you do a mag check. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:17 PM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! In a message dated 4/7/2007 3:46:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, SPurpura@aol.com writes: You probably have a broken mag wire/bad connection, thus one side of the ignition is hot all the time and no rpm change when you do a mag check. All, I've been giving this a little more thought. Let's say that the wire to Mag A was broken. When you do your mag check, you "should not" get an RPM drop when you switch off Mag A, but you "should" get an RPM drop when you switch off Mag B. This should tell you that the Mag A circuit has a problem. Am I thinking right? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:24 PM PST US From: "Erich Trombley" Subject: Europa-List: HELP my Rotax Won't Stop! You might try the "bullet" connectors at the electronic control module. It is fairly common for these connectors to oxidize. Try cleaning the connectors. Also, I have had the wire break under the insulation just a t the connector. Although I have not personally experienced it, I have head that while the engine/connector is cold, continuity is maintained, however, as the connector heats up continuity is lost. As such, you wil l be unable to ground out the engine when you turn off the ignition. Regards, Erich Trombley Classic Mono 914 ________________________________________________________________________ Interested in getting caught up on today's news? Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines. http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/f ront.htm?csp=24

You might try the "bullet" connectors at the electronic control module.  It is fairly common for these connectors to oxidize.  ; Try cleaning the connectors.  Also, I have had the wire break und er the insulation just at the connector.  Although I have not perso nally experienced it, I have head that while the engine/connector is col d, continuity is maintained, however, as the connector heats up continui ty is lost.  As such, you will be unable to ground o ut the engine when you turn off the ignition.

Regards,

Erich Trombley
Classic Mono 914



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