---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/24/07: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:24 AM - Re: Baby Blue is back! (Jos Okhuijsen) 2. 03:33 AM - Re: Baby Blue is back! (Raimo Toivio) 3. 05:26 AM - Re: Baby Blue is back! (josok) 4. 06:12 AM - Re: Baby Blue is back! (Graham Singleton) 5. 08:57 AM - Europa XS Mono Hi-Top for sale (Simon Nash) 6. 09:36 AM - Re: Baby Blue is back! (R.C.Harrison) 7. 12:03 PM - Re: Baby Blue is back! (Gilles Thesee) 8. 02:51 PM - Re: Sea Survival Equipment (Steve Crimm) 9. 05:10 PM - Re: First engine start (Graham Singleton) 10. 05:15 PM - Re: Baby Blue is back! (Graham Singleton) 11. 10:43 PM - Re: Sea Survival Equipment (nigel charles) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:24:56 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Baby Blue is back! From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Hi Gilles, >> Do you really advise here to get rid of a safety feature? > Not all aircraft rely on spring tension to open the throttle against the > friction in the outer case. Some have a push-pull cable and the throttle > valve will stay where it is, should the control fail. We are talking about the Rotax engine, and the Europa. In the Rotax documentation it is quite clear, why the spring is there and that the spring should be able to pull the cable. Rotax even offers two methods for improvent if the supplied spring is not strong enough. Removing the spring is not one of them. If the valve remains shut on final, when you would like to compensate for a stronger then estimated head wind you will discover the reason. > Hundreds of MCRs have been flying for years with a piano wire to replace > the stranded cable and spring, without any problem whatsoever. The > linkage is far far safer with a push-pull control than with a flimsy > stranded cable and puny spring. You can even keep the spring for your > peace of mind ! A solid wire is per definition more prone to breaking. In a Europa, that wire has to go around corners, it can not be straight. Therefore, in a Europa, where this list/forum is about, it will break sooner then a stranded cable, especially if routed wrong in the first place. If you think the factory supplied throttle cable is flimsy, i suggest to try to break it. By hand. I guess you need about 600 kg of pulling force. I can't take remarks like that very serious. Advising to remove safety components on the other hand is very serious business. > natural sweeps instead of turns. The usual place for breaking a cable is > at a wrongly rigged portion between throttle lever and cable case. So a > careful design of this portion, and some provision for pivoting is key. Again, it's all in the manual, this case the Europa Builders Manual. Have you ever looked at it? Regards, Jos Okhuijsen -- workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane http://www.europaowners.org/kit600 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:33:57 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Baby Blue is back! I used original Europa throttle cables but shortened them and routed them directly to the carburrettors (w/o any loops as per manual) and they seem to work very well. No binding at all. In fact I have some difficulties to get enough friction to the throttle lever to prevent its "auto-moves" and to keep it idle w/o hand. Raimo === Raimo M W Toivio OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, FCAA permitted for test flights OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, reinterioring completed OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines, singing this summer? 37500 Lempaala Finland tel + 358 3 3753 777 fax + 358 3 3753 100 gsm + 358 40 590 1450 raimo.toivio@rwm.fi www.rwm.fi ----- Original Message ----- From: "josok" Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:53 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Baby Blue is back! > > Hi Giles, > > "How about dispensing with the springs, and replacing the cables with > piano wire ? " > > Do you really advise here to get rid of a safety feature? > > In case of a broken throttle cable or piano wire, you might end up with a very silent engine. The problem here is too tight routing of a throttle cable. Change the inner cable with a solid wire, and things will improve, probably until, because of the same tight routing the wire breaks sooner then might be expected. > > Aircraft carburettors have springs to pull full throttle in case something goes wrong with the linkage. Please be careful when changing the basics! > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Baby Blue is back! From: "josok" Hi Raimo As per Nev's advice: Weld the nuts to the metal washers, then the friction washers work. Without that the metal washers turn on the nuts instead. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:08 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Baby Blue is back! Raimo the "auto move" common on the factory throttle box is because the friction pads (nylon washers) are not restrained. It's a backlash issue not friction. I used large pieces of nylon sheet and stopped them turning. Cured it completely. Graham Raimo Toivio wrote: > > I used original Europa throttle cables > but shortened them and routed > them directly to the carburrettors > (w/o any loops as per manual) > and they seem to work very well. > No binding at all. > > In fact I have some difficulties to get enough > friction to the throttle lever to prevent its > "auto-moves" and to keep it idle w/o hand. > > Raimo > === > Raimo M W Toivio > > OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, FCAA permitted for test flights > OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, reinterioring completed > OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines, singing this summer? > > 37500 Lempaala > Finland > tel + 358 3 3753 777 > fax + 358 3 3753 100 > gsm + 358 40 590 1450 > > raimo.toivio@rwm.fi > www.rwm.fi > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "josok" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:53 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Baby Blue is back! > > > >> >>Hi Giles, >> >>"How about dispensing with the springs, and replacing the cables with >>piano wire ? " >> >>Do you really advise here to get rid of a safety feature? >> >>In case of a broken throttle cable or piano wire, you might end up with a very silent engine. The problem here is too tight routing of a throttle cable. Change the inner cable with a solid wire, and things will improve, probably until, because of the same tight routing the wire breaks sooner then might be expected. >> >>Aircraft carburettors have springs to pull full throttle in case something goes wrong with the linkage. Please be careful when changing the basics! >> >>Regards, >> >>Jos Okhuijsen >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:19 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Europa XS Mono Hi-Top for sale From: "Simon Nash" Sorry to advertise my europa for sale but I am in need of a larger aircraft. Please contact off list if interested. Regards Simon ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:41 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Baby Blue is back! Hi! Jos/Raimo/Graham/Duncan/all Duncan flagged this problem up recently for my interest and suggested welding however I had some spare Redux mixed from another job and used it to smudge round the metal washers to nut interface (rather like fixing the nut in place) and although not yet "used in anger" it does ensure the friction washers are now working as intended as a friction clamp. Regards Bob H G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok Sent: 24 April 2007 13:25 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Baby Blue is back! Hi Raimo As per Nev's advice: Weld the nuts to the metal washers, then the friction washers work. Without that the metal washers turn on the nuts instead. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:08 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Baby Blue is back! Jos, > A solid wire is per definition more prone to breaking. In a Europa, > that wire has to go around corners, it can not be straight. Therefore, > in a Europa, where this list/forum is about, it will break sooner then > a stranded cable, especially if routed wrong in the first place. If > you think the factory supplied throttle cable is flimsy, i suggest to > try to break it. By hand. I guess you need about 600 kg of pulling force. The problem is, one needs to push, not pull, to open the throttle. Reports on cable buckling and failure to increase power are not infrequent. I thought someone was reporting a carb cable/spring trouble. Hence my suggestion, that has been working for tens of thousand flight hours. I took this liberty because I've some experience installing and operating a 914, and an engine doesn't mind what aircraft it is in, does it ;-) > I can't take remarks like that very serious. Advising to remove safety > components on the other hand is very serious business. The safety component here reads "large and direct sweeps", and "positive throttle linkage". > Again, it's all in the manual, this case the Europa Builders Manual. > Have you ever looked at it? Yes sir, especially the engine installation part. Don't recall at the moment, but if it really suggests installing the throttle cables with tight turns, I would take it with a grain of salt. But it is your airplane and and building and engineering decisions are up to you. Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:51:54 PM PST US From: "Steve Crimm" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Sea Survival Equipment Having been involved in many over water searches for downed aircraft I have found that civilian pilots are not properly equipped as a general rule. If it is not on your person when you go down you may be "SOL". Having found a UH-1H that went down, the one thing that remained in the area and was the easiest to spot from 500AGL was sea dye. It was amazing how easy it was to find the military survivors when they used dye. It was a green dye and spread out and covered an area almost the size of a football (US) field in a matter of 20 minutes after they went down. Once I found the dye it then still took a minute or so to locate the crew in their 10 man raft. Much easier to see the dye than the raft, but the dye is what lead me to them. BTW Sun N Fun was great Steve N42AH Still for Sale www.stephenscott.com/Europa -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 08:48 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Sea Survival Equipment --> Jos Okhuijsen - said > I've been on SAR training missions searching for an elt, and it's not > as easy as it's supposed to be. Thats why I raised the point about using smoke or sea dye. I know nothing whatsoever about ELT technology but I figured it would only give a general location as to where the ELT is located - ie it isnt direction sensitive. My guess an ELT will only guide the search helicopter or vessel to within a mile or two of the target and then its down to the Mk1 eyeball. Assuming there is time to make a mayday call that alone should be sufficient to guide search and rescue to within a couple of miles but there is no guarantee you could make that call in an emergency or accurately give your location - I must see if there is a button on my Garmin which will display the GPS coordinates. Smoke or dye makes it much quicker to locate a downed craft as there may well be other small vessels in the search area and the SAR would need to elimnate these as possible targets. As to immersion suits I am not sure these are any lighter than carrying a raft (Transair sells a raft which is 12kg) - maybe someone makes a lightweight version. I personally feel that a bulky survival suit would be somewhat impractical for flying. Purely from a weight point of view a diving wet suit would afford a considerable improvement in survivability. ----- Original Message ----- From: "josok" Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 12:54 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Sea Survival Equipment > > Why not use survival suites, as carried by oil platform personnel on > helicopter rides? These will keep you alive in any water for more then 24 > hrs. I've seen those in Norway, in a shop supplying material for > fisherman. The price, weight and bulkiness were way lower then i expected > them to be. Maybe our Norwegian friends can supply some more details? And > instead of an elt, i would go for a combination of elt and gps equipped > PLB. I've been on SAR training missions searching for an elt, and it's not > as easy as it's supposed to be. As for the legal requirements: My first > objective would be to increase the chance of survival. Second comes the > legality :-) > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:59 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: First engine start Jos don't be too hard on Gilles, he's a BanBi man I know, but for whatever reason chooses to subscribe here and share his experience, which I suspect is mor valuable than mine. My 2 sentz Graham {;-) I used to have Thunderbird emoticons but they hid themselves, came back briefly, then went again. Puzzled ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:19 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Baby Blue is back! Gilles in an ideal situation I agree push rods are best. Same with flight controls. Trouble is the Europa's situation isn't ideal for push rods, hence the second best choice of cables + springs, either of which could fail. In the EZs it was required that the throttle would still open without a spring, ie using the stranded cable as a push rod. Hmmm regards Graham Gilles Thesee wrote: > > > Jos, > >> A solid wire is per definition more prone to breaking. In a Europa, >> that wire has to go around corners, it can not be straight. Therefore, >> in a Europa, where this list/forum is about, it will break sooner then >> a stranded cable, especially if routed wrong in the first place. If >> you think the factory supplied throttle cable is flimsy, i suggest to >> try to break it. By hand. I guess you need about 600 kg of pulling force. > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:42 PM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Sea Survival Equipment Sea dye works best when the sea is reasonably calm. If the sea is rough it is difficult to sea because it gets broken up by wave action and also there is less colour contrast. Nigel Charles -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Crimm Sent: 24 April 2007 22:51 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Sea Survival Equipment Having been involved in many over water searches for downed aircraft I have found that civilian pilots are not properly equipped as a general rule. If it is not on your person when you go down you may be "SOL". Having found a UH-1H that went down, the one thing that remained in the area and was the easiest to spot from 500AGL was sea dye. It was amazing how easy it was to find the military survivors when they used dye. It was a green dye and spread out and covered an area almost the size of a football (US) field in a matter of 20 minutes after they went down. Once I found the dye it then still took a minute or so to locate the crew in their 10 man raft. Much easier to see the dye than the raft, but the dye is what lead me to them. BTW Sun N Fun was great Steve N42AH Still for Sale www.stephenscott.com/Europa -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 08:48 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Sea Survival Equipment --> Jos Okhuijsen - said > I've been on SAR training missions searching for an elt, and it's not > as easy as it's supposed to be. Thats why I raised the point about using smoke or sea dye. I know nothing whatsoever about ELT technology but I figured it would only give a general location as to where the ELT is located - ie it isnt direction sensitive. My guess an ELT will only guide the search helicopter or vessel to within a mile or two of the target and then its down to the Mk1 eyeball. Assuming there is time to make a mayday call that alone should be sufficient to guide search and rescue to within a couple of miles but there is no guarantee you could make that call in an emergency or accurately give your location - I must see if there is a button on my Garmin which will display the GPS coordinates. Smoke or dye makes it much quicker to locate a downed craft as there may well be other small vessels in the search area and the SAR would need to elimnate these as possible targets. As to immersion suits I am not sure these are any lighter than carrying a raft (Transair sells a raft which is 12kg) - maybe someone makes a lightweight version. I personally feel that a bulky survival suit would be somewhat impractical for flying. Purely from a weight point of view a diving wet suit would afford a considerable improvement in survivability. ----- Original Message ----- From: "josok" Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 12:54 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Sea Survival Equipment > > Why not use survival suites, as carried by oil platform personnel on > helicopter rides? These will keep you alive in any water for more then 24 > hrs. I've seen those in Norway, in a shop supplying material for > fisherman. The price, weight and bulkiness were way lower then i expected > them to be. Maybe our Norwegian friends can supply some more details? And > instead of an elt, i would go for a combination of elt and gps equipped > PLB. I've been on SAR training missions searching for an elt, and it's not > as easy as it's supposed to be. As for the legal requirements: My first > objective would be to increase the chance of survival. Second comes the > legality :-) > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.