---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/08/07: 29 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:14 AM - Re: Re: Flap Seals (Roger Sheridan) 2. 01:49 AM - Re: TCU/Dongle (Keith Hickling) 3. 03:28 AM - Re: Tire change (Raimo Toivio) 4. 04:35 AM - Re: TCU/Dongle (Jack Hilditch) 5. 05:06 AM - Re: Tire change (William Harrison) 6. 05:50 AM - Re: Painting metal parts (rampil) 7. 07:35 AM - Seat Backs (Justin Kennedy) 8. 08:08 AM - Re: Painting metal parts () 9. 08:32 AM - Re: Outrigger pivot bearing mod and Wheels (William Mills) 10. 10:37 AM - Re: TCU/Dongle (Jos Okhuijsen) 11. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: Painting metal parts (Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com) 12. 10:52 AM - Re: Thank you, John Lawton. (Jeff B) 13. 11:39 AM - Re: Thank you, John Lawton. (Jack Hilditch) 14. 11:48 AM - Re: Painting metal parts (Rob Housman) 15. 12:18 PM - Re: Europa Widen Shoulder width door mod. (gregoryf.flyboy) 16. 12:58 PM - Re: Thank you, John Lawton. (Fred Klein) 17. 01:07 PM - Re: Tire change (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 18. 01:09 PM - Re: Thank you, John Lawton. (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 19. 01:15 PM - Re: Thank you, John Lawton. (Jeff B) 20. 01:20 PM - Re: Thank you, John Lawton. (Steve Pitt) 21. 02:39 PM - Painting metal parts () 22. 02:43 PM - Re: Monowheel tyre (karelvranken) 23. 02:45 PM - Re: Thank you, John Lawton. (Jeff B) 24. 02:52 PM - Re: Thank you, John Lawton. (Paul McAllister) 25. 03:08 PM - Re: Thank you, John Lawton. (Jeff B) 26. 04:50 PM - Re: Thank you, John Lawton. (Fred Klein) 27. 05:01 PM - Re: Painting metal parts (Rob Housman) 28. 05:33 PM - Re: Melted silencer (Karl Heindl) 29. 08:22 PM - Re: Painting metal parts (Andrew Sarangan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:03 AM PST US From: Roger Sheridan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Flap Seals It's the diameter of the circular section of the P & hence the thickness. On 7 May 2007, at 21:11, Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote: > > > Roger, > Could you double-confirm please that the 10mm dimension is the > thickness prior to compression, or the width. > > Duncan McF. > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Sheridan" > > To: > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 8:35 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Flap Seals > > >> >> >> This appears to fit the bill: >> >> http://www.lasaero.com/las/30?part=DTD5531-60 >> >> 10mm very soft silicone P seal which compresses easily to 3mm >> >> They sent me a sample but I haven't bought the full length yet. >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> Roger >> >> >> On 7 May 2007, at 09:09, William Mills wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> If anyone in the UK finds a suitable lightweight compressible >>> strip, please let us know the source and the material spec. >>> The ailerons can be sealed by flexible adhesive tape placed over >>> the underside gap along the hinge line with the aileron in the >>> full up position (so as not to restrict any movement). >>> Regards, >>> William >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Krzyzewski" >>> >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 1:44 AM >>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Flap Seals >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> Of course even when the flap is retracted, some air will find >>>> its way >>>> up thru the gap between the leading edge of the flap and the >>>> vertical >>>> face of the wing closeout, and it is this airflow which one >>>> wants to >>>> eliminate in order to enhance cruise efficiency. >>>> >>>> If this is so, it would seem that another way to get this >>>> increase in >>>> cruise efficiency might be to install a compressible strip >>>> which would >>>> close the gap when flaps are retracted but allow airflow over >>>> the flaps >>>> when they are deployed, thus maintaining the short field >>>> characteristics of the aircraft which, if I understand you >>>> correctly, >>>> have been changed. << >>>> >>>> Adding compressible strips in the flap closeout was suggested >>>> to me some >>>> time ago by a person with many years of aeronautical design >>>> experience. >>>> >>>> The key is to close the airflow from lower to upper surface during >>>> cruise but to ensure that the lower to upper airflow over the flap >>>> remains per the design spec when the flaps are down. >>>> >>>> This is quite easy to achieve by adding some light doorstop >>>> strip into >>>> the flap closeout and, in many cases, will have already been >>>> achieved on >>>> the port side if the pitot/static lines were run in the flap >>>> closout as >>>> part of a retrofit. >>>> >>>> Tony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> 10:34 >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:49:29 AM PST US From: Keith Hickling Subject: Re: Europa-List: TCU/Dongle You can still run DOS in a window under windows XP (on mine at least) - programmes, accessories, command prompt opens a DOS window. Keith Hickling. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 1:22 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: TCU/Dongle > > Hi Hans, > > Don't know about early dongles, imho, the early versions had one dongle, > the same one for all serial numbers and versions. But the software is > tricky in that respect, that it requires MSdos, something that has > dispappered with Win98. > I got it working on XP however, by running it from an USB stick. It won't > run when installed on a hd under xp. Then, most portables don't have > serial ports anymore, forcing you to use a serial-usb adapter. That will > produse any port number but never one or two, the only ones that this > archaic software will talk to. That forces some manipulating of the > Register with regedit, and can better be left to your expert. Let him call > me, +358 40 5007853, any time. > > Kind Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > -- > workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane > http://www.europaowners.org/kit600 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:43 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire change I have thought it is not only to get home - repair should be permanent until a next puncture happens. In my case my tyre has been OK after aerosol, so far. And if not, inner tyres are not expensive. Att least I have in my mono an inner tyre... Regards, Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Parkin To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 9:35 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire change While they work admirably, the tyre inflating aerosols have one major drawback - if the experience with my Peugeot 206 is anything to go by. The 206 does not come with a spare tyre, so I used the supplied aerosol to get me home. It worked brilliantly, but when I took the offending item to the tyre place to have it repaired, I was told that after using the aerosol it was impossible to repair. I had to buy a new tyre. Expensive puncture. regards, Mike Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Gert Dalgaard To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 12:14 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire change - I carry one in my AC.... could help me get home to tea one day. /Gert OY-GDS/mono/914 Den 07/05/2007 kl. 12.22 skrev Graham: ----- Original Message ----- From: William Harrison To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 5:22 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire change How does anyone rate tyre inflation/sealing aerosols for emergency get-you-home application? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:50 AM PST US From: "Jack Hilditch" Subject: RE: Europa-List: TCU/Dongle FYI: Click on START > Run > (type) CMD > (press) Enter brings up the DOS window in Windows 2000 and XP. Jack Hilditch -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith Hickling Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:22 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: TCU/Dongle You can still run DOS in a window under windows XP (on mine at least) - programmes, accessories, command prompt opens a DOS window. Keith Hickling. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 1:22 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: TCU/Dongle > > Hi Hans, > > Don't know about early dongles, imho, the early versions had one dongle, > the same one for all serial numbers and versions. But the software is > tricky in that respect, that it requires MSdos, something that has > dispappered with Win98. > I got it working on XP however, by running it from an USB stick. It won't > run when installed on a hd under xp. Then, most portables don't have > serial ports anymore, forcing you to use a serial-usb adapter. That will > produse any port number but never one or two, the only ones that this > archaic software will talk to. That forces some manipulating of the > Register with regedit, and can better be left to your expert. Let him call > me, +358 40 5007853, any time. > > Kind Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > -- > workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane > http://www.europaowners.org/kit600 > > > -- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:50 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire change It is brilliant stuff, BUT, can I sound a note of caution from personal experience? A tin of it once got me almost home after a blow out on a motorbike. 100 miles later (1 mile from home...) it went again and refused to respond to a second dose. When examined later, a 3 inch split was found in the inner tube (caused by incorrect fitting - it had been put in with a crease which had caused the rubber either side to abrade). The magic aerosol held it together - amazingly - and I might have trusted it as a permanent repair if it hadn't gone again. That's the problem: the stuff is so good that it may, under some circumstances, be able to mask a seriously faulty tyre. I always carry some when touring in the car/bike/plane, (have never needed it since though), but would always want to have a proper repair ASAP after getting home. Incidentally, BMW used to supply a tyre plugging kit in motorcycle tool kits for the user to repair a puncture at the roadside without needing to remove the tyre. They have stopped now due to fears of product liability, I believe, although you can still get the kits. They rely on a crochet hook type tool to instal the plug and have a cylinder of compressed gas to reinflate the tyre. Willie Harrison - G-BZNY On 8 May 2007, at 11:30, Raimo Toivio wrote: > I have thought it is not only to get home > - repair should be permanent until a next > puncture happens. In my case my tyre has > been OK after aerosol, so far. And if not, > inner tyres are not expensive. > > Att least I have in my mono an inner tyre... > > Regards, Raimo > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Parkin > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 9:35 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire change > > While they work admirably, the tyre inflating aerosols have one > major drawback - if the experience with my Peugeot 206 is anything > to go by. > > The 206 does not come with a spare tyre, so I used the supplied > aerosol to get me home. It worked brilliantly, but when I took the > offending item to the tyre place to have it repaired, I was told > that after using the aerosol it was impossible to repair. I had to > buy a new tyre. > > Expensive puncture. > > regards, > > Mike > > Do not archive > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gert Dalgaard > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 12:14 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire change > > - I carry one in my AC.... could help me get home to tea one day. > /Gert > OY-GDS/mono/914 > > > Den 07/05/2007 kl. 12.22 skrev Graham: > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: William Harrison >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 5:22 PM >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire change >> >> How does anyone rate tyre inflation/sealing aerosols for emergency >> get-you-home application? > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http:// > www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// > forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List_- > ============================================================ _- > forums.matronics.com_- > =========================================================== > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:13 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Painting metal parts From: "rampil" Andrew, I did some of both in A224. Risks and benefits to both methods, paint and powder. In very brief spray paint scratches off very easily, 2 part epoxy is much tougher powder coating will conceal cracks in critical areas like welds -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=111556#111556 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:12 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Seat Backs From: "Justin Kennedy" Hi All, My heartfelt congratulations to Jac for another triumph. Well done. It's great to see the fleet is expanding week by week. Things moved so fast on this forum that by the time I had written up my seats and added pictures taken at the weekend the subject was dead and buried. My apologies for being so slow. Anyway I have posted my seat contribution on the picture section in response to those who asked 'off list' for details. A little measuring and there is enough there to hand the job to an unpholsterer. Sounds like treason to suggest it to all you dedicated 'build everything yourself' chaps. I should talk. Safe flying to everyone. See you around. Justin ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:57 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Painting metal parts From: Hello Andrew Watch the temperature used with powder coat, you can kill the temper on aluminium parts. Some powders require temps too high for tempered aluminium. Even if you have a lower temp powder, make sure oven does not overheat part. I didn't powder coat anything as of this moment, but if I do, will use Thermal color indicating telltales along side my parts to make sure over temp did not occur. I fooled with at least a dozen cans of spray primers, self etch, zinc oxide and zinc chromate. Also fooled with Dupont self etch in gun. Some cans work OK as far as adhesion and things went downhill from there. The Dupont stuck OK, but either the DPLF or DCC did not adhere well to it. Most companies do not advocate using other companies product. I think scuff sanding was part of the problem with the self etch, it filled the sanding scores and volatiles were probably trapped because it was on too thick in those areas. My choice of paint is PPG DELTRON http://www.pwpaints.com/ppg-p-sheets.html DPLF as the Epoxy Primer can be used on metal and airframe. On airframe I apply a very thin coat as an adhesion promoter, then wait for a full cure (many days), then light scuff and K36 high build primer to fill, then DPLF to seal and DCC Concept as top coat. The reason for DPLF on airframe first is as a adhesion promoter, and an attempt to seal porous surface from volatiles getting trapped if I were to use K36 first. Put paint in direct sunlight and let it heat up, and pimples will appear if you have volatiles hidden below your spectacular paint job. On metal, trying DCC on top of all the primers I tried works from OK to poor. Not great adhesion. I tried DPLF on top of the primers then topcoat, and again OK to poor adhesion. Scuffing metal and putting DPLF on it, WOW. It sticks incredable. On all metal parts they get sanded or sand blasted with Aluminium Oxide media, DPLF, and then top coated. If metal is permanent stuck to the airframe, they just get painted along with the airframe. If needed you can use K36 high build primer over DPLF to fill imperfections on metal. Make absolute sure that the volatiles have evaporated before putting on next type of paint. That includes whatever you decide to clean surface with. If you were to topcoat too soon over a not full cured primer, adhesion would be not too good between paints. You sometimes can peel layer off and actually smell volatiles years after paint. Just a side note, JB Weld (JB KWIK) is a great pinhole (and scratch) filler. It is very thick and stays put. If you use a 1+1/4" flexible putty knife to apply and scrape, then a very sharp razor blade to squeegee, all that is left is pinholes and sanding marks filled. Amazing. The regular JB Weld long cure is not as thick and does not work anywhere near as well. JB KWIK is harder to sand than Expancel, so not a great idea to fill anything other than pinholes or scratches where you can squeegee off almost all excess. Good Luck Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:18 AM PST US From: "William Mills" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger pivot bearing mod and Wheels No, Fred, it is not an aircraft wheel and it is much lighter than that one looks and has a plastic shield each side which is stationary when the wheel turns. My camera is U/S at the moment, but when I get it repaired I will attach a photo. I have to send the camera away, so it may be some while. I'll see if the supplier has a web catalogue. Best wishes, William ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Klein" Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 5:04 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outrigger pivot bearing mod and Wheels > > William, > > Regarding the outrigger wheel you've used...could you check: > www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php/pid52~subid 14/ > index.html > > Is this the wheel you're using? > > Fred > A194 > > PS: I really enjoyed meeting you, Terry C., and Steve C. at Sun N > Fun...thanks so much for coming over...hope the trip was worthwhile! > > On Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 11:57 PM, William Mills wrote: > >> Whilst on the outrigger subject, I have found a source of much better >> outrigger wheels with proper sealed bearings and shielded hubs. >> They are obtained from: MSA Wheels and Castors Ltd, 10 Maclure Road, >> Rochdale, Lancs., UK. >> The spec is: 170299 EP100 Wheel + 8 mm Bush. The bush was inserted as a >> special order for me, to suit the existing outrigger bolt, so please >> make reference to the Europa aircraft outrigger wheel. > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:59 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: TCU/Dongle From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Sorry for you folks, but the window is called a command window. The session looks like dos, but it is a cmd session. It's a Dos look a like but it is not Dos. It does things Dos does not do, and it can't do some mainly hardware connected stuff that Dos does. A lot of old dos stuff won't work there. The Rotax com stuff won't work there. And that was what the question was about. > Click on START > Run > (type) CMD > (press) Enter brings up the DOS > window in > Windows 2000 and XP. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen -- workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane http://www.europaowners.org/kit600 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Painting metal parts From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com Ron, I'm pleased to see there is another JB Weld fan out there. I use it around the house, will stick just about anything to anything. Also good for little jobs on the plane, such as bonding the nut to the washer in the throttle friction set up. Dave A061 do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:39 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. Pete and all, I finally found the time and the photos. You can see the process and end result here: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=Flap-Seals-Baby-Blue&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Jeff - Baby Blue 285 hours Pete Lawless wrote: > > Jeff > > > > That rather suggests that this 'gap seal' does not just block the gap > with the flaps up but improves the airflow over the flap though the > gap when the flaps are down. > > > > Is there a picture of it anywhere? > > Regards > > > > Pete > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeff B > *Sent:* 07 May 2007 16:06 > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. > > > > Flaps down... > > Jeff > > Pete Lawless wrote: > > > Jeff > > Are you talking about landing flap up or flap down? > > Regards > > Pete > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Mills > Sent: 07 May 2007 08:10 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. > > > > Jeff, > Why does the tape need to be so wide, or does it just come in 2 1/4" widths? > > If you get a chance, perhaps you could publish a photo. > Best wishes, > William > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rman" > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 3:51 PM > Subject: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. > > > >> >> Last year, I had the pleasure of flying into John's airstrip, in Tennessee >> > > >> and visiting with him and his near finished bird, for a while. In our >> conversation, John mentioned how sealing up the aircraft would clean up >> the lines, resulting in better speeds. As John said, the glider guys do >> it and it works. Well, while I had Baby Blue disassembled and was >> cleaning her up for Sun-N-Fun (which she did not make, as she was still >> ailing from the weak carb spring incident) I decided to add some gap seals >> > > >> to the wing, to seal the flaps, upon retraction. What I used was a 2.25" >> wide piece of .020" styrene, a product that I use, almost daily in my >> sign/graphics business. I attached it to the wing using 1" hem tape (a >> very strong, two sided tape, used to hem banners). Once the engine was >> restored to normal operating condition, the results were immediate and >> astounding. I haven't done a complete test, yet, but the results seems to >> > > >> have yielded about 4-5 kph at cruise. It has also resulted in more float, >> > > >> during landing, which I attribute to reduced stall speeds. I say reduced >> stall speeds, because, by reducing my final approach from 65 kph to 60 >> kph, across the numbers, Baby Blue lands like she used to. I'll be doing >> more extensive tests, as the weather settles. However, I am extremely >> pleased with the initial results of the simple and inexpensive mod. >> Thanks again, John for your suggestion... >> >> Jeff - Baby Blue >> 284 hours >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> 269.6.4/790 - Release Date: 05/05/2007 10:34 >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > * * > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by *MailScanner* , and is > believed to be clean. > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:31 AM PST US From: "Jack Hilditch" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. Jeff, The technique looks just like what we have been using for years to curtail turbulence around racing sailboat rudders and trim tabs. I know it works well enough, in the denser medium of water, to provide measurable speed improvements. There is certainly every reason to believe it will work in a similar fashion around moveable aviation appendages. Jack Hilditch _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff B Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 1:52 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. Pete and all, I finally found the time and the photos. You can see the process and end result here: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=Flap-Seals-Baby-Blue &op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Jeff - Baby Blue 285 hours Pete Lawless wrote: Jeff That rather suggests that this 'gap seal' does not just block the gap with the flaps up but improves the airflow over the flap though the gap when the flaps are down. Is there a picture of it anywhere? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff B Sent: 07 May 2007 16:06 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. Flaps down... Jeff Pete Lawless wrote: Jeff Are you talking about landing flap up or flap down? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Mills Sent: 07 May 2007 08:10 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. Jeff, Why does the tape need to be so wide, or does it just come in 2 1/4" widths? If you get a chance, perhaps you could publish a photo. Best wishes, William ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rman" Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 3:51 PM Subject: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. Last year, I had the pleasure of flying into John's airstrip, in Tennessee and visiting with him and his near finished bird, for a while. In our conversation, John mentioned how sealing up the aircraft would clean up the lines, resulting in better speeds. As John said, the glider guys do it and it works. Well, while I had Baby Blue disassembled and was cleaning her up for Sun-N-Fun (which she did not make, as she was still ailing from the weak carb spring incident) I decided to add some gap seals to the wing, to seal the flaps, upon retraction. What I used was a 2.25" wide piece of .020" styrene, a product that I use, almost daily in my sign/graphics business. I attached it to the wing using 1" hem tape (a very strong, two sided tape, used to hem banners). Once the engine was restored to normal operating condition, the results were immediate and astounding. I haven't done a complete test, yet, but the results seems to have yielded about 4-5 kph at cruise. It has also resulted in more float, during landing, which I attribute to reduced stall speeds. I say reduced stall speeds, because, by reducing my final approach from 65 kph to 60 kph, across the numbers, Baby Blue lands like she used to. I'll be doing more extensive tests, as the weather settles. However, I am extremely pleased with the initial results of the simple and inexpensive mod. Thanks again, John for your suggestion... Jeff - Baby Blue 284 hours -- 269.6.4/790 - Release Date: 05/05/2007 10:34 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. _____ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:34 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Painting metal parts You are on the right track because Alodine and zinc chromate each provide a good basis for making coatings stick to aluminum. Do not try painting aluminum without pre-treatment because the naturally formed oxide on the surface will prevent any coating from sticking. At first the coating will seem OK but it won't take long for the coating to lift off the substrate. Here's a link that answers your question with a bit more detail: http://www.ronjoseph.com/Q&A/B2001_painting_aluminum.htm Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 8:54 PM Subject: Europa-List: Painting metal parts I know nothing about painting, except for routine touchups I have done around the house. Now I have to decide how to paint Europa's external metal parts such as flap arms. All my metal parts have been treated with alodine and sprayed with zinc chromate. I am assuming that no further primer is needed before top coat. But what kind of top coat should I use? Can I use the garden variety Krylon brand spray paint from the hardware store? Any special considerations? Any insights would be greatly appreciated. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:41 PM PST US From: "gregoryf.flyboy" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Widen Shoulder width door mod. Thankyou Svein, Duncan, and all responders to this question- It helps to know the difference between the mods. Hopefully, someone will someday submit real-world airspeed effects of the mods. It is a tough consideration, unless the mod was added after the plane already flew, and stats gathered. Greg Fuchs A050 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan & Ami McFadyean Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 1:34 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Widen Shoulder width door mod. Gregory, Re. the shoulder width mod., it is not possible to sit that close to the door if you are already sitting as high as possible in the fuselage (as you need to be for good vis.), because the curvature of the door window against your head prevents moving any further outboard. Unless you have broad shoulders and/or a long neck, the mod may not be that relevant. However, many have reported that they are no longer conscious of the door frame contacting the side of the upper arm; but this is not something that I've noticed personally. The point being that the mod may not be for everyone. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "gregoryf.flyboy" Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 7:54 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Widen Shoulder width door mod. > > > Ok, so I will make a guess at this (a few pros and cons, based on the > responses so far)... > > The bubble windows are for tall pilots, and are very easy to install, but > may have a negative affect on the airspeed, due to the way it pokes > outside > the circumference of the aircraft. It would be a good choice for someone, > where speed is not of the essence, and limited time spent on the mod is. > > The door sill mod increases the shoulder space of the Europa (by 1.2"), > requires a bunch of work, but does not affect the cruise speed of the > craft. > > The raised top method increases the height of the fuselage top, again for > tall pilots. It needs to be implemented during the build of the craft, and > will raise the forward upper part of the fuselage, and not the very rear > of > the upper fuselage. It requires a bunch of work, and I must believe that > because of the increase of the frontal forward surface area of the craft > (that the air stream will see), that it will affect the cruise speed by > some > extent. Probably to a much smaller extent than the bubble windows, due to > a > retaining of the original sleek upper fuselage contour of the Europa. > Possibly the effect might be negligible. > > Anyone see something I am grossly missing? > > More importantly, are there any real world results that confirm any of > this > speculation? > > It would be nice to have a more complete grasp of the advantages and > disadvantages for the above modifications. > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. From: Fred Klein Thanks for the pixs Jeff....looks very slick and tidy. Is the width of the styrene wide enough to maintain the seal when the flaps are deployed?...or have you designed it so that a gap appears and allows for airflow thru the slot? Fred On Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Jeff B wrote: > Pete and all, > > I finally found the time and the photos.- You can see the process and > end result here:- > http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=Flap-Seals-Baby- > Blue&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php > > Jeff - Baby Blue > 285 hours > > Pete Lawless wrote: > > > 14 Hantone Hill > > Jeff > > - > > That rather suggests that this =91gap seal=92 does not just block the gap > with the flaps up but improves the airflow over the flap though the > gap when the flaps are down. > > - > > Is there a picture of it anywhere? > > Regards > > - > > Pete > > - > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf OfJeff B > Sent: 07 May 2007 16:06 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. > > - > > -Flaps down... > > Jeff > > Pete Lawless wrote: > > > - > > Jeff > > - > > Are you talking about landing flap up or flap down? > > - > > Regards > > - > > Pete > > - > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William > Mills > > Sent: 07 May 2007 08:10 > > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. > > - > > > > > - > > Jeff, > > Why does the tape need to be so wide, or does it just come in 2 1/4" > widths? > > - > > If you get a chance, perhaps you could publish a photo. > > Best wishes, > > William > > - > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Rman" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 3:51 PM > > Subject: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. > > - > > - > > - > > > - > > Last year, I had the pleasure of flying into John's airstrip, in > Tennessee > > --- > > - > > - > > and visiting with him and his near finished bird, for a while.- In our > > conversation, John mentioned how sealing up the aircraft would clean up > > the lines, resulting in better speeds.- As John said, the glider guys > do > > it and it works.- Well, while I had Baby Blue disassembled and was > > cleaning her up for Sun-N-Fun (which she did not make, as she was still > > ailing from the weak carb spring incident) I decided to add some gap > seals > > --- > > - > > - > > to the wing, to seal the flaps, upon retraction.- What I used was a > 2.25" > > wide piece of .020" styrene, a product that I use, almost daily in my > > sign/graphics business.- I attached it to the wing using 1" hem tape (a > > very strong, two sided tape, used to hem banners).- Once the engine was > > restored to normal operating condition, the results were immediate and > > astounding.- I haven't done a complete test, yet, but the results > seems to > > --- > > - > > - > > have yielded about 4-5 kph at cruise.- It has also resulted in more > float, > > --- > > - > > - > > during landing, which I attribute to reduced stall speeds.- I say > reduced > > stall speeds, because, by reducing my final approach from 65 kph to 60 > > kph, across the numbers, Baby Blue lands like she used to.- I'll be > doing > > more extensive tests, as the weather settles.- However, I am extremely > > pleased with the initial results of the simple and inexpensive mod. > > Thanks again, John for your suggestion... > > - > > Jeff - Baby Blue > > 284 hours > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > -- > > 269.6.4/790 - Release Date: 05/05/2007 10:34 > > - > > - > > --- > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > > - > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:32 PM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire change I can confirm that those kits are still available, although of course they are only for tubeless tyres. I thought that plugging was illegal for UK road-use! Duncan Mcf. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Harrison To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 1:06 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire change It is brilliant stuff, BUT, can I sound a note of caution from personal experience? A tin of it once got me almost home after a blow out on a motorbike. 100 miles later (1 mile from home...) it went again and refused to respond to a second dose. When examined later, a 3 inch split was found in the inner tube (caused by incorrect fitting - it had been put in with a crease which had caused the rubber either side to abrade). The magic aerosol held it together - amazingly - and I might have trusted it as a permanent repair if it hadn't gone again. That's the problem: the stuff is so good that it may, under some circumstances, be able to mask a seriously faulty tyre. I always carry some when touring in the car/bike/plane, (have never needed it since though), but would always want to have a proper repair ASAP after getting home. Incidentally, BMW used to supply a tyre plugging kit in motorcycle tool kits for the user to repair a puncture at the roadside without needing to remove the tyre. They have stopped now due to fears of product liability, I believe, although you can still get the kits. They rely on a crochet hook type tool to instal the plug and have a cylinder of compressed gas to reinflate the tyre. Willie Harrison - G-BZNY On 8 May 2007, at 11:30, Raimo Toivio wrote: I have thought it is not only to get home - repair should be permanent until a next puncture happens. In my case my tyre has been OK after aerosol, so far. And if not, inner tyres are not expensive. Att least I have in my mono an inner tyre... Regards, Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Parkin To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 9:35 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire change While they work admirably, the tyre inflating aerosols have one major drawback - if the experience with my Peugeot 206 is anything to go by. The 206 does not come with a spare tyre, so I used the supplied aerosol to get me home. It worked brilliantly, but when I took the offending item to the tyre place to have it repaired, I was told that after using the aerosol it was impossible to repair. I had to buy a new tyre. Expensive puncture. regards, Mike Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Gert Dalgaard To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 12:14 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire change - I carry one in my AC.... could help me get home to tea one day. /Gert OY-GDS/mono/914 Den 07/05/2007 kl. 12.22 skrev Graham: ----- Original Message ----- From: William Harrison To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 5:22 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire change How does anyone rate tyre inflation/sealing aerosols for emergency get-you-home application? href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com - The Europa-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:49 PM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. The effect of your seal is not much different to the standard set-up on the Classic wing, which has a similar but narrower (about 1" rather than 1.25") rearward-projecting 'seal' built in, because of hte method of construction. I asked Don Dykin about this a few years ago (mainly in relation to a question about the smoothness of the inner duct formed in the TE of the wing, which is provided in the XS but not in the Classic). His view was that the geometry of the duct was not critical to its operation. I guess because it is a converging duct designed to merely 'blow' across the top of the flap to delay or prevent its stall. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff B To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 6:51 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. Pete and all, I finally found the time and the photos. You can see the process and end result here: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=Flap-Seals-Baby-B lue&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Jeff - Baby Blue 285 hours Pete Lawless wrote: Jeff That rather suggests that this 'gap seal' does not just block the gap with the flaps up but improves the airflow over the flap though the gap when the flaps are down. Is there a picture of it anywhere? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff B Sent: 07 May 2007 16:06 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. Flaps down... Jeff Pete Lawless wrote: Jeff Are you talking about landing flap up or flap down? Regards Pete -----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@ma tronics.com] On Behalf Of William MillsSent: 07 May 2007 08:10To: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Mills" Jeff,Why does the tape need to be so wide, or does it just come in 2 1/4" widths? If you get a chance, perhaps you could publish a photo.Best wishes,William ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rman" To: Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 3:51 PMSubject: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. --> Europa-List message posted by: Rman Last year, I had the pleasure of flying into John's airstrip, in Tennessee and visiting with him and his near finished bird, for a while. In our conversation, John mentioned how sealing up the aircraft would clean up the lines, resulting in better speeds. As John said, the glider guys do it and it works. Well, while I had Baby Blue disassembled and was cleaning her up for Sun-N-Fun (which she did not make, as she was still ailing from the weak carb spring incident) I decided to add some gap seals to the wing, to seal the flaps, upon retraction. What I used was a 2.25" wide piece of .020" styrene, a product that I use, almost daily in my sign/graphics business. I attached it to the wing using 1" hem tape (a very strong, two sided tape, used to hem banners). Once the engine was restored to normal operating condition, the results were immediate and astounding. I haven't done a complete test, yet, but the results seems to have yielded about 4-5 kph at cruise. It has also resulted in more float, during landing, which I attribute to reduced stall speeds. I say reduced stall speeds, because, by reducing my final approach from 65 kph to 60 kph, across the numbers, Baby Blue lands like she used to. I'll be doing more extensive tests, as the weather settles. However, I am extremely pleased with the initial results of the simple and inexpensive mod. Thanks again, John for your suggestion... Jeff - Baby Blue284 hours -- 269.6.4/790 - Release Date: 05/05/2007 10:34 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:55 PM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. Good question, Fred. I'll have to look, next time I go out... ;) Jeff Fred Klein wrote: > Thanks for the pixs Jeff....looks very slick and tidy. > > Is the width of the styrene wide enough to maintain the seal when the > flaps are deployed?...or have you designed it so that a gap appears > and allows for airflow thru the slot? > > Fred > > On Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Jeff B wrote: > > Pete and all, > > I finally found the time and the photos. You can see the process > and end result here: > _http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=Flap-Seals-Baby-Blue&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php > > > _Jeff - Baby Blue > 285 hours > > Pete Lawless wrote: > > > 14 Hantone Hill > > Jeff > > > > That rather suggests that this gap seal does not just block the > gap with the flaps up but improves the airflow over the flap > though the gap when the flaps are down. > > > > Is there a picture of it anywhere? > > Regards > > > > Pete > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* _owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com_ > [_mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com_] *On Behalf > Of*Jeff B > *Sent:* 07 May 2007 16:06 > *To:* _europa-list@matronics.com > _*Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. > > > > Flaps down... > > Jeff > > Pete Lawless wrote: > > __ > > > > Jeff > > > > Are you talking about landing flap up or flap down? > > > > Regards > > > > Pete > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: _owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com_ > > [_mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com_] On Behalf Of > William Mills > > Sent: 07 May 2007 08:10 > > To: _europa-list@matronics.com_ > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. > > > > > __ > > > > Jeff, > > Why does the tape need to be so wide, or does it just come in 2 > 1/4" widths? > > > > If you get a chance, perhaps you could publish a photo. > > Best wishes, > > William > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Rman" __ > > To: __ > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 3:51 PM > > Subject: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. > > > > > > > > > > > Last year, I had the pleasure of flying into John's airstrip, in > Tennessee > > > > > > > > and visiting with him and his near finished bird, for a while. In > our > > conversation, John mentioned how sealing up the aircraft would > clean up > > the lines, resulting in better speeds. As John said, the glider > guys do > > it and it works. Well, while I had Baby Blue disassembled and was > > cleaning her up for Sun-N-Fun (which she did not make, as she was > still > > ailing from the weak carb spring incident) I decided to add some > gap seals > > > > > > > > to the wing, to seal the flaps, upon retraction. What I used was > a 2.25" > > wide piece of .020" styrene, a product that I use, almost daily in my > > sign/graphics business. I attached it to the wing using 1" hem > tape (a > > very strong, two sided tape, used to hem banners). Once the > engine was > > restored to normal operating condition, the results were immediate > and > > astounding. I haven't done a complete test, yet, but the results > seems to > > > > > > > > have yielded about 4-5 kph at cruise. It has also resulted in > more float, > > > > > > > > during landing, which I attribute to reduced stall speeds. I say > reduced > > stall speeds, because, by reducing my final approach from 65 kph > to 60 > > kph, across the numbers, Baby Blue lands like she used to. I'll > be doing > > more extensive tests, as the weather settles. However, I am > extremely > > pleased with the initial results of the simple and inexpensive mod. > > Thanks again, John for your suggestion... > > > > Jeff - Baby Blue > > 284 hours > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > 269.6.4/790 - Release Date: 05/05/2007 10:34 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by *_MailScanner_*, and is > believed to be clean. > > > > > > _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List_ > > > _http://forums.matronics.com_ > > > size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier"> > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:43 PM PST US From: "Steve Pitt" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. Jeff, You are confusing me (it does not take much I hear some say!) I thought I understood from other e-mails that it was necessary to maintain a gap in the flap to allow air to flow upwards when the flap is extended. However your photos suggest that your seal will stop any air going up through the flap at all stages of flight (or is this not the case?). I can understand sealing the ailerons and have seen this quite clearly on gliders over this weekend, but they don't have flaps so it does not apply to them. Can someone please point me to an explanation of the aerodynamic theories surrounding this subject. Thank you Steve Pitt G-SMDH ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:28 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Painting metal parts From: Hello Rob There are more than 1 way to skin a cat or paint metal on a Europa. If you read the link you posted: http://www.ronjoseph.com/Q&A/B2001_painting_aluminum.htm bout half way down: Q: What would a common procedure be to resurface a corrosion pitted marine motor outdrive (mercury-aluminum outdrive). I have heard that 2 part paints and epoxies have incredible adhesive properties as well as corrosion resistance, but what would be recommended in this application? A: An epoxy primer followed by a polyurethane topcoat is still my number one choice, but the real issue is cleaning up the pits in the motor outdrive. Once the pits have been thoroughly cleaned, your friend will need to immediately apply the epoxy primer. By immediate, I mean within a few hours and not the following day. One method to clean the pits and prepare the surface is by abrasive blasting with glass beads. But your friend will probably need to take the drive to a ob shop to have this done. In the industrial world the drive would probably be pretreated with a chromate conversion coating, but in all likelihood your friend won't have access to this process, unless he/she is willing to take the drive to a job shop that has the capabilities of pretreating aluminum. (Many job shops can blast clean the surface with glass beads and pretreat in a conversion coating). Glass beading is very bad advise though. Glass beading creates rounded scratches that do not bode well for adhesion. Sharp media is needed. Downside to 2 part Epoxy or powder coating is like stated you must paint shortly after you sand. You can apply DPLF over Alodined parts though. If acid creeps somewhere it is not supposed to be and you can't get it out that will do no good for the long term. I provided link for manual for paints, here is one for DPLF: http://www.pwpaints.com/images/downloads/dplf-p-196.pdf 1 note on self etching zinc primers, they use acid to etch the surface, half or more of the magic provided by zinc is used up to neutralize the acid! I know many folk coat aluminium with zinc primer, but it is porous and for best corrosion properties, sealer is needed. PPG and Dupont have technicians you can talk to, whoever system you choose, don't be bashful to call. Or if you are going to have your plane painted by someone, now is a good time to perhaps talk to a few shops and get their opinion on painting various materials and what to use. No matter what you decide, try on something other than your aeroplane parts first, and always have a sample you can do a scratch test then heat. You will learn a lot, 3M 375 packaging tape is pretty aggressive, use it to try and lift paint, use dental tools for adhesion testing. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:11 PM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel tyre Hans, I am interested in the tyre and inner tube. Can I contact you off list so we can arrange for shipping and costs. My e-mail adress is karelvranken@hotmail.com and I live in Belgium. Regards, Karel Vranken. ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Siedsma To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 12:19 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Monowheel tyre I changed my kit in a tri gear and have available a brand new tyre and inner tube. If you are interested let me know. You can have it free, but only the shipping cost is yuors. Hans Siedsma ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:45 PM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. Steve, My understanding is that preventing the air going over the flap, in cruise, reduces drag, resulting in higher cruise speed, which I have experienced. I don't have the engineering background to completely understand what is happening to the wing, in flight. That's why I depend on the guys on the list to keep me straight. I'm more of a "try it and see" kinda guy... :) John's advice is based on the success that the glider guys have had, sealing the gaps. It seems to have worked on Baby Blue, as well. Continued testing will tell to what degree of advantage the seals make. It may very well prove that the extra few knots is not worth the float upon landing. I won't know until I satisfy myself that I've explored all the angles (and strip widths)... ;) Jeff Steve Pitt wrote: > Jeff, You are confusing me (it does not take much I hear some say!) > I thought I understood from other e-mails that it was necessary to > maintain a gap in the flap to allow air to flow upwards when the flap > is extended. However your photos suggest that your seal will stop any > air going up through the flap at all stages of flight (or is this not > the case?). > I can understand sealing the ailerons and have seen this quite clearly > on gliders over this weekend, but they don't have flaps so it does not > apply to them. > Can someone please point me to an explanation of the aerodynamic > theories surrounding this subject. Thank you > Steve Pitt > G-SMDH ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:57 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. Jeff, would you happen to have a photograph of what your seal looks like with the flap down ? - Paul ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:14 PM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. Paul, I will take a few pics at the earliest convenience and post them to the album... Jeff Paul McAllister wrote: > Jeff, would you happen to have a photograph of what your seal looks > like with the flap down ? - Paul > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Thank you, John Lawton. From: Fred Klein Jeff... Measuring my wings w/ full flaps, I find a gap between the vertical wing close out and the leading edge of the flap to be 4.25 inches. Fred On Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 03:07 PM, Jeff B wrote: > Paul, > > I will take a few pics at the earliest convenience and post them to > the album... > > Jeff > > Paul McAllister wrote: > > > Jeff, would you happen to have a photograph of what your seal looks > like with the flap down ? - Paul > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:55 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Painting metal parts Agreed, Ron, there are several ways to do the job. My main point was that aluminum MUST be treated in some fashion in order to make any paint adhere. In your link to dplf-p-196 the footnote for painting aluminum addresses this point, "+ Film build of 1.2-1.5 mils of DPLF is required or the surface must be treated with Metal Cleaner/Conditioner or coated with DX 1791/1792." However, in my view, MIL-DTL-81706B makes a rather strong case for using a conversion coating prior to painting. Links to this specificaiton and other relevant stuff are available at http://www.chemical-supermarket.com/Henkel_Alodine_1201_Chromate_Conversion_ Coating-p364.html Alodine provides corrosion resistance and promotes adhesion of the subsequent organic coating to aluminum, and its application is relatively quick and painless. True, we are playing with chemicals here so a certain amount of caution is required but the chemistry is nowhere near as hazardous to work with as oven cleaners or drain cleaners. Henkel, incidentally, is the owner of the Alodine trademark. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:38 PM Subject: Europa-List: Painting metal parts Hello Rob There are more than 1 way to skin a cat or paint metal on a Europa. If you read the link you posted: http://www.ronjoseph.com/Q&A/B2001_painting_aluminum.htm bout half way down: Q: What would a common procedure be to resurface a corrosion pitted marine motor outdrive (mercury-aluminum outdrive). I have heard that 2 part paints and epoxies have incredible adhesive properties as well as corrosion resistance, but what would be recommended in this application? A: An epoxy primer followed by a polyurethane topcoat is still my number one choice, but the real issue is cleaning up the pits in the motor outdrive. Once the pits have been thoroughly cleaned, your friend will need to immediately apply the epoxy primer. By immediate, I mean within a few hours and not the following day. One method to clean the pits and prepare the surface is by abrasive blasting with glass beads. But your friend will probably need to take the drive to a ob shop to have this done. In the industrial world the drive would probably be pretreated with a chromate conversion coating, but in all likelihood your friend won't have access to this process, unless he/she is willing to take the drive to a job shop that has the capabilities of pretreating aluminum. (Many job shops can blast clean the surface with glass beads and pretreat in a conversion coating). Glass beading is very bad advise though. Glass beading creates rounded scratches that do not bode well for adhesion. Sharp media is needed. Downside to 2 part Epoxy or powder coating is like stated you must paint shortly after you sand. You can apply DPLF over Alodined parts though. If acid creeps somewhere it is not supposed to be and you can't get it out that will do no good for the long term. I provided link for manual for paints, here is one for DPLF: http://www.pwpaints.com/images/downloads/dplf-p-196.pdf 1 note on self etching zinc primers, they use acid to etch the surface, half or more of the magic provided by zinc is used up to neutralize the acid! I know many folk coat aluminium with zinc primer, but it is porous and for best corrosion properties, sealer is needed. PPG and Dupont have technicians you can talk to, whoever system you choose, don't be bashful to call. Or if you are going to have your plane painted by someone, now is a good time to perhaps talk to a few shops and get their opinion on painting various materials and what to use. No matter what you decide, try on something other than your aeroplane parts first, and always have a sample you can do a scratch test then heat. You will learn a lot, 3M 375 packaging tape is pretty aggressive, use it to try and lift paint, use dental tools for adhesion testing. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:03 PM PST US From: "Karl Heindl" Subject: Europa-List: RE: Melted silencer Hi Ron, The picture would be a problem. Th exhaust is installed now, and the damage is almost impossible to see because there is very little clearance. One can see the damage to the aluminum duct. The affected area must have vaporized, as there is now an indentation. On the underside there are pinhead size blisters, but it didn't burn right through. I am quite sure now that this was caused by electrical discharge(s). The duct with the radiators is completely isolated from the engine and is probably acting as a giant capacitor, which then discharges to the nearest metal object above. What causes the buildup of static ? I guess I will never know. This is potentially very dangerous, and if it happened to me, it could happen to anyone else. Someone from the factory should take aninterest in this. The best I can do is run a wire between duct and engine to eliminate any static discharges. Regards, Karl >From: "Ronald Parigoris" >To: kheindl@msn.com >Subject: RE: Lost message >Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 18:13:18 -0400 > >Hello Karl > >If you can, I would like to see a picture. On teflon hoses, static created >from liquid would damage the hose: >http://www.sacskyranch.com/statichose.htm > >I know that airplanes with rubber boots on the lead edge of the wing can >get full of pinholes from static discharge. > >I set up to fly my hot air balloon once, and was close enough to the guy >next to me that our balloons were rubbing back and fourth that has happened >many times before. This time the thermocouple wire that runs from the top >of the balloon to the basket was close to the contact areas of the >balloons. Static jumped onto the wires, and was discharging to a fuel tank >not too far from the wires in the basket! > >You have exhause running through the exhaust, not beyond the realm of >possability that the exhaust is poorly grounded and seeking ground at that >point? I don't have a good picture, but air flowing and charging something >could cause static as well. > >Try to change nothing, go flying and see if you can measure any voltage >potential between the 2 parts. > >Is it possable that somehow the ignition is not well grounded to the motor, >and jumping to ground here? I had a Kawasaki F5 and F9 that used electronic >ignition and surface gap plugs. The surface gap plugs had a gap in the >porecelin to allow no leakage from tip. What I am getting at is if ignition >is finding ground where you are having problem?? > >Please let me know resolve. > >Sincerely >Ron Parigoris > > >>From: "Karl Heindl" >>To: rparigor@hotmail.com >>Subject: RE: Lost message >>Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 20:57:06 +0100 >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>From: postmaster@mail.hotmail.com >>>To: kheindl@msn.com >>>Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Delay) >>>Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 06:07:45 -0700 >>> >>>This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. >>> >>>THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY. >>> >>>YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE. >>> >>>Delivery to the following recipients has been delayed. >>> >>> rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>><< attach3 >> >> >> >> >>>From: "Karl Heindl" >>>To: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us >>>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Melting silencer >>>Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 01:48:59 +0100 >>> >>> >>> >>>Hi Ron, >>> >>>Thank you for your interest. Unfortunately no pictures but it is a >>>standard XS fwf installation (not 914). >>>The vertical distance between silencer and duct is about 10mm. Very >>>difficult to see when everything is installed. If I hadn't seen it with >>>my own eyes I wouldn't have believed it. I can only think of electricity >>>causing that intense localized heat. Of course I don't know when it >>>happened or whether it is happening all the time. I won't be able to fire >>>up my engine for another 2 weeks. >>>I am taking a wild guess that if I connect a ground wire to the duct it >>>will fix the problem. >>>There must be someone out there who can explain this phenomenon. >>> >>>Karl >>> >>>>From: >>>>To: "Karl Heindl" >>>>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Melting silencer >>>>Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 23:20:04 -0000 >>>> >>>>Hello Karl >>>> >>>>Do you by chance have any pictures of overall location and close up of >>>>damage? >>>> >>>>Ron Parigoris >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Mon, May 7, 2007, Karl Heindl said: >>>> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > No, it was a little forward of that. Think of the temperatures. What >>>>is >>>> > stainless steel melting point ? >>>> > And if the heat came from the inside, why is not burned right through >>>>? >>>> > >>>> > Karl >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" >>>> >>To: >>>> >>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Melting silencer >>>> >>Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 20:52:44 +0100 >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>Was the "heat-stressing" opposite where one of the header pipes goes >>>>in to >>>> >>the silencer i.e. where hot gases directly from the end of the header >>>>pipe >>>> >>would impinge internally? >>>> >> >>>> >>Duncan McF. >>>> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Heindl" >>>> >>To: >>>> >>Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 2:17 PM >>>> >>Subject: Europa-List: Melting silencer >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>The mod 72 has one good side benefit, it gives us the chance for a >>>>real >>>> >>>close inspection of the back of the engine and underneath. I had to >>>>remove >>>> >>>the silencer for better access to the firewall and two bottom frame >>>>bolts. >>>> >>>Here is what I discovered : >>>> >>>The bottom of the silencer , starboard side, an oval area of 30x90mm >>>>was >>>> >>>badly pitted with strong signs of having melted. The aluminum duct >>>> >>>directly underneath is similarly affected. I tapped the affected >>>>area with >>>> >>>a hammer to look for any weakness, but it appears to be still okay. >>>>The >>>> >>>aluminum is paper thin and needs to be patched. >>>> >>> >>>> >>>My installation is a standard 912S fwf kit with stainless exhaust >>>>system >>>> >>>and Singleton firewall. I never experienced any temperatures >>>>(according to >>>> >>>the EIS) above the permissable ranges. The EGT probes are on the >>>>exhaust >>>> >>>stubs of cylinders 3 and 4. I never noticed anything unusual. >>>> >>>There is no other heat damage. The coolant pipe directly behind it >>>>to the >>>> >>>radiator shows no sign of anything unusual. >>>> >>> >>>> >>>My questions are: >>>> >>> >>>> >>>Has anyone ever experienced or heard of anything like this before ? >>>>What >>>> >>>could be the possible cause ? What is the melting point of stainless >>>>steel >>>> >>>? >>>> >>> >>>> >>>There is no direct fresh air to the bottom of the engine. Some time >>>>ago I >>>> >>>had taped off the starboard NACA duct, as it was supposedly designed >>>>for >>>> >>>the 914. There was no detrimental effect to the engine temperatures. >>>>I >>>> >>>have now opened up the precut flap in the starboard side of the alu >>>>duct, >>>> >>>which will divert some fresh air to the silencer. (I believe this >>>>flap was >>>> >>>also designed for the 914). >>>> >>> >>>> >>>One very long shot : Could there be any electrical sparking between >>>>the >>>> >>>two surfaces, acting like a capacitor ? I just don't see how those >>>>high >>>> >>>temperatures could come from the exhaust gases without also burning >>>>the >>>> >>>outside of the fuselage etc. >>>> >>> >>>> >>>I wonder if anyone knows. And any help greatly appreciated. >>>> >>> >>>> >>>Karl >>>> >>> >>>> >>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>MSN Hotmail is evolving - check out the new Windows Live Hotmail >>>> >>>http://get.live.com/betas/mail_betas >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > _________________________________________________________________ >>>> > MSN Hotmail is evolving - check out the new Windows Live Hotmail >>>> > http://get.live.com/betas/mail_betas >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>>-- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>Could you be the guest MSN Movies presenter? Click Here to Audition >>>http://www.lightscameraaudition.co.uk >>> >>> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Reserve your place in history - Email Britain! >>http://www.emailbritain.co.uk/ >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. > _________________________________________________________________ Play your part in making history - Email Britain! http://www.emailbritain.co.uk/ ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:21 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: RE: Europa-List: Painting metal parts If I may add, Alodine process is really quite simple and not as messy as it is portrayed. The key is to have pre-mixed phosphoric etch (Metal Prep 79), Alodine 1201 and water in separate plastic buckets with air tight lids. When ready for the process, open the bucket, drop the aluminum part, and close the bucket. Then use a plastic tong to retrieve it. Usually I don't even spill a single drop, and is clean and mess-free. If you minimize the time the bucket lids are open, you don't even have to wear breathing apparatus. The chromic acid is nasty smelling fume so you obviously don't want to inhale too much. I would rate this process as significantly less messier and hazardous compared to trimming fiberglass with a dremel. Most of the messy problems with alodine happened when I tried to mix the solutions for each use. I ended up with lots of spills, as well as permament discoloration of shop floor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.