Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:47 AM - Flap gap seals (=?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?=)
2. 01:20 AM - Re: Votex Generators (flyingphil2)
3. 02:06 AM - paint shops (danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk)
4. 03:25 AM - Re: paint shops (Steve Pitt)
5. 04:31 AM - Re: paint shops (Richard Scanlan)
6. 05:13 AM - Re: 16.5 mm Reamer (h&jeuropa)
7. 08:25 AM - Re: Votex Generators (rampil)
8. 10:01 AM - Re: paint shops (Richard Collings)
9. 10:36 AM - Re: Europa handling characteristics vs Tomahawk and Piper Warriar (gregoryf.flyboy)
10. 10:43 AM - Re: Votex Generators (Fred Klein)
11. 11:09 AM - Re: Europa handling characteristics vs Tomahawk and Piper Warriar (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
12. 01:11 PM - Re: Europa handling characteristics vs Tomahawk and Piper Warriar (gregoryf.flyboy)
13. 01:57 PM - Re: Votex Generators (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
14. 01:59 PM - Re: paint shops (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
15. 02:17 PM - Re: Tour de France 2007 (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
16. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: Votex Generators (Graham Singleton)
17. 05:56 PM - Re: Re: Votex Generators (Fred Klein)
18. 06:13 PM - Re: Votex Generators (D.Hetrick)
19. 06:15 PM - Re: Re: Votex Generators (D.Hetrick)
20. 06:18 PM - Re: Re: Votex Generators (D.Hetrick)
21. 10:52 PM - Re: Tour de France 2007 (Bob Hitchcock)
Message 1
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Hi all,
The gap seal thread reminds me the incident I had about ten years ago with
my former plane, a Robin DR380. This airplane had very simple flaps hinged
at the bottom. In order to reduce drag, I had sealed the flap gap using ad
hesive tape. Although the speed increase was not mesurable, I was happy wit
h that mod until a few years later, I noticed the tape becoming unsticked i
n some places under the right wing. As a temporary fix until I was back hom
e, I decided to remove the whole tape on that side. The next landing was in
teresting: when I lower the flaps, the airplane quickly rolled to the right
and I had to apply half aileron to the left to compensate.
Conclusion: sealing the gap of that rudimentary flap design does not signi
ficantly reduce drag at cruise but clearly increase lift with the flaps dow
n.
On the Europa fowler flaps, a seal certainly reduce drag at cruise, as note
d by Jeff on Baby Blue, but the effect on lift and drag with flaps down is
uncertain and will be very dependant on the design of the seal. In any case
, be prepared for a strong rolling and possibly yawing effect, should the s
ealing tape fail during flight.
Instead of using tape, why not design an aluminium seal similar to those wh
ich are STC=99ed on Cessnas and Cherokees ?
Regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 467 hours
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Votex Generators |
Hi,
Why would you install vortex generators on a Europa? VG's are an aerodynamic fix
to help when you've got it wrong (i.e flow separations ahead of ailerons etc).
From what I've read, Don Dykins got it right and I can't see a need for adding
anything else (other than decent wing/fuse seals that have been discussed
earlier).
Phil
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 3
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Hi All,
My baby is getting very close to being ready to be painted. Can
anyone in the uk recommend a good paint shop. I reside in north wales,
but will be able to trail R.I. any where in the uk.
Cheers Danny G-c.e.r.i.
Message 4
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Danny,
I had my plane sprayed by Testwood Motors body shop, Nutsey Lane in Totton,
Southampton. Stuart Graham is the general manager and is the brother of the
(in)famous Europa builder and modification guru Nigel Graham.
Nigel says that "from personal experience, I can testify to the quality of
the work that this organisation produces. His mobile number is 07774
97.65.38''
Everyone who has seen my aircraft (G-SMDH on the Europa stand at Kemble last
year) has been complimentary about the paint finish and after over 2 years
since it was painted (and with 26 hours now on the clock) I feel it is time
to apply some polish for the first time.
They were very obliging even working with the engine fitted and masking it
and the screens superbly.
Any questions do ask.
Steve Pitt
Message 5
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Just had my mono classic painted by Sky 4, www.sky4aviation.co.uk.
Mine's a classic and I did a high top mod, so a lot of profiling to do
to get the lines right. I figured that (another) big bill was worth the
money, and the quality of work has exceeded my expectations. Speak to
Mike or Robin
Richard Scanlan #103, engine just about to go in.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk
Sent: 10 May 2007 10:02
Subject: Europa-List: paint shops
<danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Hi All,
My baby is getting very close to being ready to be painted. Can
anyone in the uk recommend a good paint shop. I reside in north wales,
but will be able to trail R.I. any where in the uk.
Cheers Danny G-c.e.r.i.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 16.5 mm Reamer |
Brad,
Ours is available and located in MI. E Mail us off line.
Jim & Heather
europa@triton.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=111997#111997
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Votex Generators |
VGs are most appropriate for non-laminar flow wings to induce more
laminar-type flow. Unless you have a really crappy fill and paint job,
vgs won't help a europa much. Phil is right, read a copy of Dykin's
book on the Europa wing.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112028#112028
Message 8
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It may seem a long way to go but you couldn't do much better than Mick Allen
& Sons Ltd . Turweston Airfield, Brackley, Northants. They are in a purpose
built building right next door to the PFA offices.
----- Original Message -----
From: <danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 10:02 AM
Subject: Europa-List: paint shops
> <danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
>
> Hi All,
> My baby is getting very close to being ready to be painted. Can
> anyone in the uk recommend a good paint shop. I reside in north wales,
> but will be able to trail R.I. any where in the uk.
>
> Cheers Danny G-c.e.r.i.
>
>
> --
> 269.6.6/795 - Release Date: 5/9/2007 15:07
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Europa handling characteristics vs Tomahawk and Piper |
Warriar
I appreciate the responses.
I do have the Tri-Gear version.
This is what the responses are telling me....
Peter- The Europa is more responsive than the other two. Tomahawk is as
similar as Warrior (but both significantly different)
William- Stalling -about the same as Warrior. (stall similarity is a big one
for me) Frisky. Conversion training needed(responsive, like the above
comment, but different overall from the Warrior)
Dave- Diamond Katana is closest to the tri-gear. (I will ask, but I don't
think there is a training Katana at my airfield)
Rowland- (Who has flown all 3, hooray!) Neither is close. Type training
needed. Tomahawk may have similar weight and inertia. (I am more concerned
with stall and responsiveness similarity, or wing chord size and shape)
It looks like it does not matter much which choice to make. There is not a
significant similarity of either of these planes, to the Europa.
Since the goal is to get my ticket, I am still leaning towards the Warrior,
cost aside. I am over 40 hours into it, (Though its been about 1 yr and 10
months since I stopped my training, after the written test). The Tomahawk is
scheduled for Friday, but there is a good chance this will change. I'll see
how it feels again, after more (lack of) flight rust has been chipped away!
Thanks for all the responses,
Greg (A050)
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland & Wilma
Carson
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa handling characteristics vs Tomahawk and
Piper Warriar
At 2007-05-09 09:11 -0700 gregoryf.flyboy wrote:
>I have the option of finishing off my flight training in a (cheaper
>to operate) Piper Tomahawk, or a (what I'm used to) Piper Warrior
>which craft does the Europa most fly like, concerning stalls, handling, etc
Greg - from my personal experience of flying all 3 types, the
immediate answer is "none of the above"!
However, I think the Tomahawk might be the best choice as it will be
nearer the weight and inertia of the Europa.
After you get your licence, you'll need a type conversion course to
drive your Europa safely and satisfactorily - and if it's a monowheel
that will be a non-trvial exercise.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson PFA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 750 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil@clara.net>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Votex Generators |
On Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 01:20 AM, flyingphil2 wrote:
> From what I've read, Don Dykins got it right...
...with the possible exception of fuselage/wing interference drag...IMO
most probably the present configuration suffers due to a concern
regarding kit component manufacturing and trailering considerations in
that a generous fillet/fairing is sadly missing...
Fred
do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Europa handling characteristics vs Tomahawk and Piper |
Warriar
Greg,
I can second what Dave and Pete says below. I got club check-out in a
Katana with Rotax 912S. Having flown Cherokees and 172s until then, it
was a noticeable difference, particularly with respect to
inertia/speed/flare. Practiced landing circuits a lot. Shortly
thereafter, I did the first flight of my Europa tri-gear, and found the
two aircraft to be very similar. I found this a very valuable practice
and confidence-builder, and I also believe our CAA considered this
training a factor when issuing their "test-pilot" approval to me.
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa handling characteristics vs Tomahawk
and Piper Warriar
Greg,
If you can find one locally, a Diamond Katana would probably give the
closest approximation of a tri-gear.
Lots of them in use here ( London, Ont, Canada, where they are built)
Dave A061
"Peter Jeffers" <pjeffers@talktalk.net>
Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
05/09/2007 01:10 PM
Please respond to europa-list
To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
cc:
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa handling
characteristics vs Tomahawk and Piper Warriar
Assuming your Europa is a Tri Gear then the Tomahawk is as near as
either those you mention, BUT the Europa is much more responsive. The
big difference with the Europa is its lack of inertia and this
definitely needs to be appreciated to avoid awkward landings. You need
to keep power on right into the flare.
If yours is a Mono then practice in a Cub would be much more useful to
you.
I hope this helps a little
Pete
UK kit 52
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gregoryf.flyboy
Sent: 09 May 2007 17:11
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Europa handling characteristics vs Tomahawk and
Piper Warriar
This question probably cannot be answered by too many people. It would
require that someone has been up in all 3 of these craft, or intimately
knowledgeable about them all. I have the option of finishing off my
flight training in a (cheaper to operate) Piper Tomahawk, or a (what I'm
used to) Piper Warrior. I went up in the Tomahawk yesterday, but am
leaning towards the Warrior, unless the Europa flies more like a
tomahawk than the Warrior. Then I might stick with it. For those in the
know, which craft does the Europa most fly like, concerning stalls,
handling, etc? Next flight is Friday, so a decision must be made soon.
Thanks,
Greg (A050)
Do not archive
Date: 08/05/2007 14:23
08/05/2007 14:23
Message 12
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| Subject: | Europa handling characteristics vs Tomahawk and Piper |
Warriar
Hi Svein,
I may look around to see if a Katana is available to rent, somewhat prior to
my first flights in the Europa. It is nice to know this fact.
Thank-you, and Regards,
Greg (A050)
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein
Johnsen
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa handling characteristics vs Tomahawk and
Piper Warriar
Greg,
I can second what Dave and Pete says below. I got club check-out in a
Katana with Rotax 912S. Having flown Cherokees and 172s until then, it was
a noticeable difference, particularly with respect to inertia/speed/flare.
Practiced landing circuits a lot. Shortly thereafter, I did the first
flight of my Europa tri-gear, and found the two aircraft to be very similar.
I found this a very valuable practice and confidence-builder, and I also
believe our CAA considered this training a factor when issuing their
"test-pilot" approval to me.
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa handling characteristics vs Tomahawk and
Piper Warriar
Greg,
If you can find one locally, a Diamond Katana would probably give the
closest approximation of a tri-gear.
Lots of them in use here ( London, Ont, Canada, where they are built)
Dave A061
"Peter Jeffers" <pjeffers@talktalk.net>
Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
05/09/2007 01:10 PM
Please respond to europa-list
To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
cc:
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa handling characteristics vs
Tomahawk and Piper Warriar
Assuming your Europa is a Tri Gear then the Tomahawk is as near as either
those you mention, BUT the Europa is much more responsive. The big
difference with the Europa is its lack of inertia and this definitely needs
to be appreciated to avoid awkward landings. You need to keep power on
right into the flare.
If yours is a Mono then practice in a Cub would be much more useful to you.
I hope this helps a little
Pete
UK kit 52
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gregoryf.flyboy
Sent: 09 May 2007 17:11
Subject: Europa-List: Europa handling characteristics vs Tomahawk and Piper
Warriar
This question probably cannot be answered by too many people. It would
require that someone has been up in all 3 of these craft, or intimately
knowledgeable about them all. I have the option of finishing off my flight
training in a (cheaper to operate) Piper Tomahawk, or a (what I'm used to)
Piper Warrior. I went up in the Tomahawk yesterday, but am leaning towards
the Warrior, unless the Europa flies more like a tomahawk than the Warrior.
Then I might stick with it. For those in the know, which craft does the
Europa most fly like, concerning stalls, handling, etc? Next flight is
Friday, so a decision must be made soon.
Thanks,
Greg (A050)
Do not archive
08/05/2007 14:23
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Votex Generators |
Essential to getting a reasonable and consistent amount of air through
my (rather small) cockpit NACA vents! (which are located in the
"standard" position).
Do NACA vents have a critical Re above which they don't work well?
I have a suspicion that a VG ahead of the NACA on top of the cowl may be
beneficial too, as this vent seems to stall at high AoA (i.e. when
pulling in to the climb without change of airspeed the WoT revs are not
maintained meaning (on mine) that hot under cowl air is being consumed,
rather than cool air from outside).
Need to find out for sure.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: D.Hetrick
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 12:37 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Votex Generators
All,
Has anyone installed Vortex Generators on their Europa Aircraft?? If
not, why not? If you have, would you please share your findings?
Thank you very much.
Dale Hetrick
Europa XS, Tri-Gear, Jabiru
80 hours
Message 14
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http://www.flint.flyer.co.uk/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Scanlan" <avgashead@btinternet.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: paint shops
> <avgashead@btinternet.com>
>
> Just had my mono classic painted by Sky 4, www.sky4aviation.co.uk.
> Mine's a classic and I did a high top mod, so a lot of profiling to do
> to get the lines right. I figured that (another) big bill was worth the
> money, and the quality of work has exceeded my expectations. Speak to
> Mike or Robin
>
> Richard Scanlan #103, engine just about to go in.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk
> Sent: 10 May 2007 10:02
> To: matronics
> Subject: Europa-List: paint shops
>
> <danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
>
> Hi All,
> My baby is getting very close to being ready to be painted. Can
>
> anyone in the uk recommend a good paint shop. I reside in north wales,
> but will be able to trail R.I. any where in the uk.
>
> Cheers Danny G-c.e.r.i.
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Tour de France 2007 |
Bob,
Have you thought about calling in at :
http://www.vansclubdefrance.org/reg2007.php
on your tour?
Rgds.,
Duncan.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Hitchcock
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:00 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Tour de France 2007
Last call
The flavour of the tour will be unchanged: essentially it is a fairly
gentle trip allowing plenty of time to experience the delights of
France.
While most participants are experienced, it is the ideal trip for
first time cross-channel pilots and for wives who don't think that being
in a plane all day is what makes a perfect holiday!
We intend to include a visit to La Fert=E9 Alais where there is a
magnificent collection of old aircraft. Contact Bob
(robert.hitchcock@virgin.net tel. 01773 825864.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Votex Generators |
Ira
VGs were applied to the wing and canard of a Long EZ, which has laminar
sections on both, to reduce stall speed, the VGs re energise the laminar
boundary layer and help to prevent separation after the max thickness
point of the section. Stall was reduced by 7 kts.
Graham
rampil wrote:
>
> VGs are most appropriate for non-laminar flow wings to induce more
> laminar-type flow. Unless you have a really crappy fill and paint job,
> vgs won't help a europa much. Phil is right, read a copy of Dykin's
> book on the Europa wing.
>
> --------
> Ira N224XS
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112028#112028
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Votex Generators |
On Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 02:41 PM, Graham Singleton wrote:
> VGs were applied to the wing and canard of a Long EZ, which has
> laminar sections on both, to reduce stall speed, the VGs re energise
> the laminar boundary layer and help to prevent separation after the
> max thickness point of the section. Stall was reduced by 7 kts.
> Graham
So here's a question...
Is it conceivable that adding VGs to the Europa could reduce the stall
speed sufficiently to meet the LSA requirements?
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Votex Generators |
Duncan,
It would be worth trying. It should only require a few VG's.
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: Duncan & Ami McFadyean
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Votex Generators
Essential to getting a reasonable and consistent amount of air through
my (rather small) cockpit NACA vents! (which are located in the
"standard" position).
Do NACA vents have a critical Re above which they don't work well?
I have a suspicion that a VG ahead of the NACA on top of the cowl may
be beneficial too, as this vent seems to stall at high AoA (i.e. when
pulling in to the climb without change of airspeed the WoT revs are not
maintained meaning (on mine) that hot under cowl air is being consumed,
rather than cool air from outside).
Need to find out for sure.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: D.Hetrick
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 12:37 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Votex Generators
All,
Has anyone installed Vortex Generators on their Europa Aircraft??
If not, why not? If you have, would you please share your findings?
Thank you very much.
Dale Hetrick
Europa XS, Tri-Gear, Jabiru
80 hours
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Votex Generators |
Graham,
My goal is to reduce the stall speeds sufficiently to "maybe" qualify for
the LSA designation. Having slower approach speeds would be a big plus as
well.
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Votex Generators
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> Ira
> VGs were applied to the wing and canard of a Long EZ, which has laminar
> sections on both, to reduce stall speed, the VGs re energise the laminar
> boundary layer and help to prevent separation after the max thickness
> point of the section. Stall was reduced by 7 kts.
> Graham
>
> rampil wrote:
>>
>> VGs are most appropriate for non-laminar flow wings to induce more
>> laminar-type flow. Unless you have a really crappy fill and paint job,
>> vgs won't help a europa much. Phil is right, read a copy of Dykin's
>> book on the Europa wing.
>>
>> --------
>> Ira N224XS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112028#112028
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Graham Singleton
>
> Tel: +441629820187
> Mob: +447739582005
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Votex Generators |
Fred,
I.m told that the VG's can ruduce the stall speeds by as much as 12 mph,
aircraft dependable of course.
I'm thinking seriously of giving it a try.
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Klein" <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Votex Generators
>
>
> On Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 02:41 PM, Graham Singleton wrote:
>
>> VGs were applied to the wing and canard of a Long EZ, which has laminar
>> sections on both, to reduce stall speed, the VGs re energise the laminar
>> boundary layer and help to prevent separation after the max thickness
>> point of the section. Stall was reduced by 7 kts.
>> Graham
>
> So here's a question...
>
> Is it conceivable that adding VGs to the Europa could reduce the stall
> speed sufficiently to meet the LSA requirements?
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Tour de France 2007 |
Good suggestion. It is tempting, the timings are a little against us as
most of the team are only available from the Saturday (and for some
crossing the channel will be a big event in itself).
If the mix of the group changed to no "first timers" , it may be
possible. I will review if the drop outs continue
Tim Houlihan has just dropped out. So there is a space left for you if
you are available?
Regards
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: Duncan & Ami McFadyean
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tour de France 2007
Bob,
Have you thought about calling in at :
http://www.vansclubdefrance.org/reg2007.php
on your tour?
Rgds.,
Duncan.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Hitchcock
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:00 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Tour de France 2007
Last call
The flavour of the tour will be unchanged: essentially it is a
fairly gentle trip allowing plenty of time to experience the delights of
France.
While most participants are experienced, it is the ideal trip for
first time cross-channel pilots and for wives who don't think that being
in a plane all day is what makes a perfect holiday!
We intend to include a visit to La Fert=E9 Alais where there is a
magnificent collection of old aircraft. Contact Bob
(robert.hitchcock@virgin.net tel. 01773 825864.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
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