---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/28/07: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:20 AM - Re: Re:propeller optimization (William Mills) 2. 02:47 AM - Re: Re:propeller optimization (Graham Singleton) 3. 03:48 AM - Re: Re:propeller optimization (William Mills) 4. 04:47 AM - Re: Re:propeller optimization (Carl Pattinson) 5. 05:55 AM - Re:propeller optimization (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 6. 06:58 AM - Re: Re:propeller optimization (Mike Gregory) 7. 06:59 AM - Re: Re:propeller optimization (David Joyce) 8. 08:15 AM - Re: Re:propeller optimization (Fred Klein) 9. 10:33 AM - What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? (glenn crowder) 10. 11:19 AM - Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? (Carl Pattinson) 11. 11:45 AM - Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? (Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com) 12. 01:33 PM - Re: Re:propeller optimization (karelvranken) 13. 02:38 PM - Re: Re:propeller optimization (Andrew Sarangan) 14. 03:03 PM - Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? (Karl Heindl) 15. 03:05 PM - Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? (Laptop JR) 16. 04:21 PM - propeller optimisation (Graham Higgins) 17. 05:10 PM - Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 18. 10:17 PM - Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? (Fred Klein) 19. 11:41 PM - Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? (gregoryf.flyboy) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:20:12 AM PST US From: "William Mills" Subject: Re: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization Fred / Graham, I believe the ideal combination for a constant speed prop would be a Woodcomp hub, Arplast blades and a Smart Avionics controller, for the following reasons: The Woodcomp SR 3000 hub is very well engineered and is half the price of the Airmaster, the latest Arplast blades PV55 have a slim aerofoil with plenty of twist (hub to tip) to cope with cruise speeds of 120 /130 Kts (about 24 degs is required) and the Smart Avionics controller is very good and extremely reliable. I am trying to persuade Woodcomp to manufacture 100% composite blades for their SR 3000, so that they can build in more twist with a slimmer aerofoil. Their current blades have wooden cores with a carbon skin, which makes them a bit bulky and limits the amount of twist, because of grain run-out. They also produce a very good leading edge protection. Regards, William ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 12:36 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization > > > Fred > Good point. I spoke to the Airmaster guys a few years ago and they told me > they spent a lot of time looking for the right blades. Warp were far from > ideal, the design of the prop was for ragwing microlights, but nobody else > was cooperative. Sad, Arplast would have been ideal but the chemistry > didn't work so both Arplast and Airmaster lost out. Alain Petit, the > Arplast boss is a nice guy but his English isn't confident and I don't > suppose the NZ guys speak much French. What an opportunity missed. Wish I > had been in the right place a few years earlier! > Graham > > Fred Klein wrote: >> >> Those concerned w/ this topic would be well to question the basic >> performance of the Warp Drive blades. In a series of emails I exchanged >> w/ Airmaster some time ago, they concede that the shortened blades needed >> for the Europa and given the speed ranges in which it flies, these blades >> leave much to be desired. >> >> Fred > > > -- > 269.8.0/817 - Release Date: 24/05/2007 16:01 > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:20 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization Fred,William Ira William and everyone I continue to be puzzled by the Warp Drive prop, which we all know was designed for slow microlight A/C. Jerry Davis once pointed out that you need less twist at hi speed, which can only mean that the Warp has the wrong twist at any speed! (Jerry is UK agent for Arplast) Thinking for a moment, at the root the blade angle should be nearly parallel with the direction of flight. At the tip it will be dependant on speed, diameter and rpm, (of the prop) With a VP prop it will only be optimised at one particular speed but should be a good compromise for the speed range. I haven't done any sums so more than that I won't say at this point. Graham William Mills wrote: > the latest Arplast blades PV55 have a slim aerofoil with plenty of twist (hub to tip) to cope with cruise > speeds of 120 /130 Kts (about 24 degs is required) > Regards, > William > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:50 AM PST US From: "William Mills" Subject: Re: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization Graham et al, I think you will find, if you do the vector diagrams at intervals along the blade, that the faster the forward speed of the A/C, the more twist you need in the blades for them to provide lift along the whole length of the blade. Hence, the PV50 and 55 have much more twist than the Warp Drive. At slow speeds i.e. at take-off, the inner section of blade will have too much AOA but that is better than producing negative lift at high speed (as Fred has already pointed out). The ideal prop would have adjustable blade twist as well as variable pitch. Regards, William ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:47 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization > > > Fred,William Ira > William and everyone > I continue to be puzzled by the Warp Drive prop, which we all know was > designed for slow microlight A/C. Jerry Davis once pointed out that you > need less twist at hi speed, which can only mean that the Warp has the > wrong twist at any speed! (Jerry is UK agent for Arplast) > Thinking for a moment, at the root the blade angle should be nearly > parallel with the direction of flight. At the tip it will be dependant on > speed, diameter and rpm, (of the prop) With a VP prop it will only be > optimised at one particular speed but should be a good compromise for the > speed range. > I haven't done any sums so more than that I won't say at this point. > Graham > > William Mills wrote: >> > the latest Arplast blades PV55 have a slim aerofoil with plenty of twist > (hub to tip) to cope with cruise >> speeds of 120 /130 Kts (about 24 degs is required) Regards, >> William >> > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:21 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization There seems to be a suggestion the Arplast Propeller blades are better suited to the Europa than the Warp drive ones (as used in the Airmaster). Why then is the Airmaster regarded as the better combination - (ie: endorsed by the Europa factory.) There is a perception that price is generally an indication of quality/ suitability but in this case that dosent appear to be so. I understand the Airmaster costs in the region of 4,000 - what is the price of a complete Arplast installation for the Europa? I cant find any prices on the UK distributors pages. Carl Pattinson G-LABS In need of a VP/ CS prop. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Mills" Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 11:46 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization > > > Graham et al, > I think you will find, if you do the vector diagrams at intervals along > the blade, that the faster the forward speed of the A/C, the more twist > you need in the blades for them to provide lift along the whole length of > the blade. Hence, the PV50 and 55 have much more twist than the Warp > Drive. At slow speeds i.e. at take-off, the inner section of blade will > have too much AOA but that is better than producing negative lift at high > speed (as Fred has already pointed out). The ideal prop would have > adjustable blade twist as well as variable pitch. > Regards, > William > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Graham Singleton" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:47 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization > > >> >> >> Fred,William Ira >> William and everyone >> I continue to be puzzled by the Warp Drive prop, which we all know was >> designed for slow microlight A/C. Jerry Davis once pointed out that you >> need less twist at hi speed, which can only mean that the Warp has the >> wrong twist at any speed! (Jerry is UK agent for Arplast) >> Thinking for a moment, at the root the blade angle should be nearly >> parallel with the direction of flight. At the tip it will be dependant on >> speed, diameter and rpm, (of the prop) With a VP prop it will only be >> optimised at one particular speed but should be a good compromise for the >> speed range. >> I haven't done any sums so more than that I won't say at this point. >> Graham >> >> William Mills wrote: >>> >> the latest Arplast blades PV55 have a slim aerofoil with plenty of >> twist (hub to tip) to cope with cruise >>> speeds of 120 /130 Kts (about 24 degs is required) Regards, >>> William >>> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:44 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization In a message dated 5/28/2007 2:58:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list@matronics.com writes: Good point. I spoke to the Airmaster guys a few years ago and they told me they spent a lot of time looking for the right blades. Warp were far from ideal, the design of the prop was for ragwing microlights, but nobody else was cooperative. Sad, Arplast would have been ideal but the chemistry didn't work so both Arplast and Airmaster lost out. Alain Petit, the Arplast boss is a nice guy but his English isn't confident and I don't suppose the NZ guys speak much French. What an opportunity missed. Wish I had been in the right place a few years earlier! Greetings team, I have it on good authority from Airmaster as of this morning that they are on schedule to release a new electrically adjustable hub at Oshkosh this year that uses Sensenich hollow carbon blades. I will be installing this new arrangement on N245E as soon as it becomes available. Regards, John Lawton Dunlap, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:05 AM PST US From: "Mike Gregory" Subject: RE: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization Has anyone tried an Elippse propeller on a Europa? See article www.batterson.net/EAA499/Issue77_8-13.pdf which makes some interesting points about propeller design. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: 28 May 2007 10:48 Subject: Re: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization Fred,William Ira William and everyone I continue to be puzzled by the Warp Drive prop, which we all know was designed for slow microlight A/C. Jerry Davis once pointed out that you need less twist at hi speed, which can only mean that the Warp has the wrong twist at any speed! (Jerry is UK agent for Arplast) Thinking for a moment, at the root the blade angle should be nearly parallel with the direction of flight. At the tip it will be dependant on speed, diameter and rpm, (of the prop) With a VP prop it will only be optimised at one particular speed but should be a good compromise for the speed range. I haven't done any sums so more than that I won't say at this point. Graham William Mills wrote: > the latest Arplast blades PV55 have a slim aerofoil with plenty of twist (hub to tip) to cope with cruise > speeds of 120 /130 Kts (about 24 degs is required) > Regards, > William > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:48 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization William Mills wrote: > Graham et al, > I think you will find, if you do the vector diagrams at intervals along the > blade, that the faster the forward speed of the A/C, the more twist you need > in the blades for them to provide lift along the whole length of the blade. William, To an unfulfilled mathematician (one who discovered nurses at a sensitive stage in his emotional development and got diverted into medicine!) this was too tempting to ignore. For a 62" diameter prop doing 2300rpm, tip speed 369 kts, I got the following figures for tip angleof incidence, angle at one third radius out from centre, twist (the 1/3 angle less the tip angle) and speed of travel. These figures relate simply to the angles needed to keep up with the airflow. In practice of course an angle of attack has to be added to produce lift. TIP ANGLE 1/3 ANGLE TWIST SPEED (Knots) 5.7 16.7 11.0 36.6 9.5 26.6 17.1 61 14.9 38.6 23.7 98 18.4 45.0 26.6 123 21.8 50.0 28.2 148 26.6 56.3 29.7 184 That much nicely confirms your statement, although interestingly enough if you continue the table the trend for increasing twist goes into reverse, thus: 33.7 63.4 29.7 246 39.8 68.2 28.4 307 45.0 71.6 26.6 368 This extended bit of table is pretty irrelevant to any Europa, although it does imply that if we optimised the prop for130 or 140 kts it would be pretty good for all speeds above. The snag is that the optimal twist for say 123 kts is 15 more than you need at 50kts and 10 more than at 60kts. So a 120 kt prop is going to be bad at getting you off the ground, when at least half of the blade is likely to either in reverse thrust or stalled mode - and no doubt this accounts for manufacturers generally optimising their props on figures below 100kts. This situation is also probably highly relevant to the blade cross section. I don't have any figures for critical angle of attack of different prop blade sections, but I could imagine that the relatively wide Woodcomp section might have a range of perhaps 12 degrees from zero lift to stall whereas the thin, sharp nosed section of the Arplast and the Warp Drive may only be half that. If so then the Woodcomp type of section would allow you to produce some lift (if not maximum) over a significantly greater proportion of the blade when in 'Too slow for the Twist' mode. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:08 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization From: Fred Klein Mike...thanks so much for the reference...fascinating article. Fred DO NOT ARCHIVE On Monday, May 28, 2007, at 06:56 AM, Mike Gregory wrote: > > > Has anyone tried an Elippse propeller on a Europa? See article > www.batterson.net/EAA499/Issue77_8-13.pdf which makes some interesting > points about propeller design. > > Mike > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:33:48 AM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? I still haven't done Mod 62 or 70 as everything seems tight and secure ba ck there and at 220 lbs I really don't relish the thought of working inside the tailcone so I would like to add an access panel that would facilitate these mods, as well as gain access to the elevator trim mechanism. Could anyone recommend a size and location that might allo w this? I've seen some round panels that look helpful. I'm right handed so would it be best to put the panel on the port side or would I need panels on both sides? Glenn _________________________________________________________________ Create the ultimate e-mail address book. Import your contacts to Windows Li ve Hotmail. www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/managemail2.html?locale=en-us&ocid =TXT_TAGLM_HMWL_reten_impcont_0507 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:31 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? I dont believe it is possible to do mod 70 easily without crawling down the back of the tailplane (IMHO). If you arent able to get in there yourself (and I accept there are many who cant), then I would suggest you find a friendly midget who would be willing to assist (its amazing what kids will do for a bit of pocket money). The standard inspection panel is about 6ins in diameter but by the time you make the flanges for the cover to fit against you only end up without about 5ins to put your arm through. Its ok for inspection but not for much else - and for you to hand the midget cups of coffee (and tools) to prevent them from falling asleep on the job. I am pretty slim myself but correspondingly long in the body - I weigh 200lbs and 6' 2"". I managed the mod by crawling down the back but as most folks will testify it isnt an experience one wants to repeat. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn crowder To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 6:30 PM Subject: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? I still haven't done Mod 62 or 70 as everything seems tight and secure back there and at 220 lbs I really don't relish the thought of working inside the tailcone so I would like to add an access panel that would facilitate these mods, as well as gain access to the elevator trim mechanism. Could anyone recommend a size and location that might allow this? I've seen some round panels that look helpful. I'm right handed so would it be best to put the panel on the port side or would I need panels on both sides? Glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Add some color. Personalize your inbox with your favorite colors. Try it! ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com Glenn, Adding access panels will not be an easy job, especially with all the re-inforcing work required. Would be money well spent to find someone young enough and small enough to do the work, it does not take too long. If you go into the back yourself, take a cell phone or have someone check regularly. I had visions of expiring there and being found a few days later. Dave A061 do not archive "Carl Pattinson" Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com 05/28/2007 02:15 PM Please respond to europa-list To: cc: Subject: Re: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? I dont believe it is possible to do mod 70 easily without crawling down the back of the tailplane (IMHO). If you arent able to get in there yourself (and I accept there are many who cant), then I would suggest you find a friendly midget who would be willing to assist (its amazing what kids will do for a bit of pocket money). The standard inspection panel is about 6ins in diameter but by the time you make the flanges for the cover to fit against you only end up without about 5ins to put your arm through. Its ok for inspection but not for much else - and for you to hand the midget cups of coffee (and tools) to prevent them from falling asleep on the job. I am pretty slim myself but correspondingly long in the body - I weigh 200lbs and 6' 2"". I managed the mod by crawling down the back but as most folks will testify it isnt an experience one wants to repeat. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn crowder Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 6:30 PM Subject: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? I still haven't done Mod 62 or 70 as everything seems tight and secure back there and at 220 lbs I really don't relish the thought of working inside the tailcone so I would like to add an access panel that would facilitate these mods, as well as gain access to the elevator trim mechanism. Could anyone recommend a size and location that might allow this? I've seen some round panels that look helpful. I'm right handed so would it be best to put the panel on the port side or would I need panels on both sides? Glenn Add some color. Personalize your inbox with your favorite colors. Try it! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:47 PM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization Graham, For the first time your explanation doesn't seem very clear to me. I thought today there would be a more scientific approach when making a propeller and its application. If the Warp blade is so few adequate for the Europa and Arplast so good then why don't we have the choice since Airmaster is not the manufacturer of the blades? Best regards, Karel Vranken. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 11:47 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization > > > Fred,William Ira > William and everyone > I continue to be puzzled by the Warp Drive prop, which we all know was > designed for slow microlight A/C. Jerry Davis once pointed out that you > need less twist at hi speed, which can only mean that the Warp has the > wrong twist at any speed! (Jerry is UK agent for Arplast) > Thinking for a moment, at the root the blade angle should be nearly > parallel with the direction of flight. At the tip it will be dependant on > speed, diameter and rpm, (of the prop) With a VP prop it will only be > optimised at one particular speed but should be a good compromise for the > speed range. > I haven't done any sums so more than that I won't say at this point. > Graham > > William Mills wrote: >> > the latest Arplast blades PV55 have a slim aerofoil with plenty of twist > (hub to tip) to cope with cruise >> speeds of 120 /130 Kts (about 24 degs is required) Regards, >> William >> > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:24 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: re:propeller optimization I am not even close to choosing a propeller, but I am a bit surprised by the varied opinions on this subject. I would think the design of the propeller would rank only second in importance to the wing itself, and that the prop should be carefully chosen or custom made considering the airframe, engine and speeds. We go through significant measures to reduce airframe drag, and worry about every extra ounce of dead weight during construction, a prop efficiency variation of just 10% would seem to take away all those factors. I hope you guys have this prop debate all sorted out by the time I get to it :-) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:17 PM PST US From: "Karl Heindl" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? Glenn, You hit upon something I have been thinking about for a long time: a large access panel right on top of the fuselage at the root of the fin, and eliminating at least one of the other two mickey mouse openings, and giving easy access to some very important components for future maintenance. Of course the rim would have to be re-enforced in order not to weaken the fuselage. Isn't there a stress engineer around who could do the calculations and design a mod for submission to the PFA ? Karl >From: glenn crowder >To: >Subject: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access >panel? >Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 11:30:54 -0600 > > > I still haven't done Mod 62 or 70 as everything seems tight and secure >back there and at >220 lbs I really don't relish the thought of working inside the tailcone so >I would like to add >an access panel that would facilitate these mods, as well as gain access to >the elevator >trim mechanism. Could anyone recommend a size and location that might >allow this? > I've seen some round panels that look helpful. I'm right handed so >would it be best to >put the panel on the port side or would I need panels on both sides? > > Glenn >_________________________________________________________________ >Create the ultimate e-mail address book. Import your contacts to Windows >Live Hotmail. >www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/managemail2.html?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_HMWL_reten_impcont_0507 _________________________________________________________________ New, exclusive and FREE - Download Madonna's "Hey You" now! http://www.liveearth.msn.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:51 PM PST US From: "Laptop JR" Subject: Re: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? And after fiddling in the back 3 mths or ago, I still have a tingle in my right thigh where I had my groin across the sharp edge of the b.b. opening and stirred up the nerve in my leg. I am not wanting to get back down there. JR (bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 11:42 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? Glenn, Adding access panels will not be an easy job, especially with all the re-inforcing work required. Would be money well spent to find someone young enough and small enough to do the work, it does not take too long. If you go into the back yourself, take a cell phone or have someone check regularly. I had visions of expiring there and being found a few days later. Dave A061 do not archive "Carl Pattinson" Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com 05/28/2007 02:15 PM Please respond to europa-list To: cc: Subject: Re: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? I dont believe it is possible to do mod 70 easily without crawling down the back of the tailplane (IMHO). If you arent able to get in there yourself (and I accept there are many who cant), then I would suggest you find a friendly midget who would be willing to assist (its amazing what kids will do for a bit of pocket money). The standard inspection panel is about 6ins in diameter but by the time you make the flanges for the cover to fit against you only end up without about 5ins to put your arm through. Its ok for inspection but not for much else - and for you to hand the midget cups of coffee (and tools) to prevent them from falling asleep on the job. I am pretty slim myself but correspondingly long in the body - I weigh 200lbs and 6' 2"". I managed the mod by crawling down the back but as most folks will testify it isnt an experience one wants to repeat. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn crowder To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 6:30 PM Subject: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? I still haven't done Mod 62 or 70 as everything seems tight and secure back there and at 220 lbs I really don't relish the thought of working inside the tailcone so I would like to add an access panel that would facilitate these mods, as well as gain access to the elevator trim mechanism. Could anyone recommend a size and location that might allow this? I've seen some round panels that look helpful. I'm right handed so would it be best to put the panel on the port side or would I need panels on both sides? Glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Add some color. Personalize your inbox with your favorite colors. Try it! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:43 PM PST US From: "Graham Higgins" Subject: Europa-List: propeller optimisation Interested in this line of discussion. I am still attracted to the idea of reverse thrust braking, but could not justify the cost of changing from Airmaster/ Warpdrive on this basis alone. However, if there was significant gain in performance in cruise, and perhaps better cooling on the ground ??? tempting. My question to all is Do we have better choice(s) today? Is there any good information to assist that choice, or are we all just guessing? Graham Higgins in Oz, still rebuilding. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:11 PM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? Glenn, I just finished installing Mod 70. I don't know how I would have done the job without the two access holes in the tail on the starboard side (for my plane as I'm right handed). The forward most one is called for to be 4 inches in diameter. The inner ring for the screw plate brings this down to less than 3 1/2 inches and was very tight on my forearm. The rear "Viewing Hole" I have increased in size from 2.5 inches to four inches also. But this called for a lot of (4 plies of BID) re enforcing all around for about 4 inches out from the holes edge. I also added two more plies forward of the view hole to span the underside of the horizontal stabilizer's front edge. But when I did Mod 70, I had yet to add the inner ring for the screw plates to the viewing hole, so I had the entire 4 inch diameter to work with. My size precluded me from crawling far enough into the back to enable me to do the job....even though I have installed two cleats on the sidewalls just forward of the Mass Balance tower for a removable shelf that I could work on my elbows on. I also needed a drop light (car engine work light?) in the rear and set up a fan to blow cooling air through my front window (windscreen not yet installed), all to keep me from having a claustrophobic episode while working inside the tail. All this because the price of monkeys and skinny little kids has just gone through the roof in my area. A call or email to Europa might get you a little more info on any other possibilities or anything that you should not do. I hope this helps. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? From: Fred Klein Jeez I'm glad I don't have my top on! DO NOT ARCHIVE -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:58 PM PST US From: "gregoryf.flyboy" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? Me either. What a breeze this mod is going to be! :) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:16 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? Jeez I'm glad I don't have my top on! DO NOT ARCHIVE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.