Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:24 AM - Re: Tour de France 2007 (William Mills)
2. 01:25 AM - Re: Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? (G-IANI)
3. 01:29 AM - Re: Tour de France 2007 (William Mills)
4. 01:35 AM - Propeller choice (brian Williams)
5. 05:13 AM - Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? (Gilles Thesee)
6. 05:43 AM - Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? (Graham Singleton)
7. 06:05 AM - Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? (rampil)
8. 07:09 AM - Re: Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? (glenn crowder)
9. 07:15 AM - Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? (Kim Prout)
10. 08:19 AM - Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? (William Daniell)
11. 10:16 AM - Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? (Andrew Sarangan)
12. 11:08 AM - Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? (Fred Klein)
13. 11:14 AM - Lipps prop for Europa (glenn crowder)
14. 03:06 PM - Re: Lipps prop for Europa (karelvranken)
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Subject: | Re: Tour de France 2007 |
Hi Bob,
It very much looks like I will have to drop out of your tour. I waited
until the last minute, because I was not sure if Diana would be able to
cope by herself. In case you were not aware, she had a replacement hip
revision at the end of April and has to keep weight off her right leg
for 6 to 8 weeks. She must also limit any movement of the hip joint to
less than 90 degs, so she cannot pick anything up off the floor. She
also cannot climb stairs, so it is quite restrictive. She is OK for a
couple of days, but a week would be too long at this stage. Hopefully
she will be OK by the 6 Nations, which will be about 7 weeks.
So sorry to let you down at the last minute, but I hope you will have a
reasonable number of A/C for the tour without me.
Best wishes and I will keep my fingers crossed for good weather.
William
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Subject: | Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access |
panel?
The attached drawing is of the "sled" which I use for access to the rear
of the Europa. Works very well and cost little to make.
I hope this helps
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Tour de France 2007 |
Sorry Bob and All,
My last message was a mistake, because it was intended for Bob alone.
It is too easy to click on the reply button!
Regards,
William
Do not archive
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Subject: | Propeller choice |
Have you you considered the Avtek Idrovario, it can be retrofitted
using hydraulics via the hollow gearbox output shaft, most Pioneer 300
have them fitted and reports are that it is very good especially in the
constant speed mode.
The control can be manual or the electronic constant speed unit.
www.avtek.it <http://www.avtek.it/>
Brian
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Subject: | Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? |
Andrew Sarangan a crit :
>
> Thanks for that information. Whirl Wind is local for me (Ohio), and I
> had not realized that their 100-series prop was designed for the
> Europa. It looks like the photo on their website is also that of the
> Europa. But I am a bit uneasy about modifying the 914's oil system, and
> also about losing the auxilary pad (which I had planned for a second
> alternator). I spoke to Whirl Wind and they said an electric governor
> is a possibility, but I did not press him for details.
>
Andrew and all,
Here are some thoughts :
- The 91X series drive pad does not turn fast enough to provide
significant output from available alternators. You won't have more than
about 12 amps.
Here is a more efficient way to add an alternator (French only at the
moment I'm afraid...). The original idea is from a Europa builder.
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_second_alternateur.php
- According to the feedback from numerous CS prop owners, an electric
prop is much more troublesome than a hydraulic one. Most of them are to
slow to be actually constant speed.
- Concerning the PV 50 blades, no wonder they are so good : they were
originally designed for the MCR/Ban-Bi by French aerodynamicist Michel
Colomban.
- By the way, no one seems to mention the MT Propeller designs with
Colomban blades, used on the MCR 4S. The aircraft size, weight and speed
are similar to the Europa.
FWIW,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
http://contrails.free.fr
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Subject: | Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? |
Gilles
I didn't know that! I'm niot surorised Colomban did the design.
The problem with MT is the cost and weight. I haven't seen the one for
the MCR4s, is that lighter?
Graham
Gilles Thesee wrote:
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> - Concerning the PV 50 blades, no wonder they are so good : they were
> originally designed for the MCR/Ban-Bi by French aerodynamicist Michel
> Colomban.
> - By the way, no one seems to mention the MT Propeller designs with
> Colomban blades, used on the MCR 4S. The aircraft size, weight and speed
> are similar to the Europa.
>
> FWIW,
> Regards,
> Gilles Thesee
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
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Subject: | Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? |
Giles and all,
The alternator which I obtained from FlightCrafters mounts
on the take-off spline from the gearbox and provides at least
20 Amps to my system at cruise (5000 rpm). Perhaps more,
I have not loaded it more. It is rated at 35-40 A.
The alternator is a Denso model used in the old Geo Metro 3 Cyl
and has had its faceplate machined to fit on the Rotax's gear box
with four bolts
Ira
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115537#115537
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access |
panel?
Thanks Ian and everyone else who contributed ideas. Hopefully someone will
hear me
screaming and kicking and yank me out before I do too much damage!
Glenn> From: g-iani@ntlwor
ld.com> To: europa-list@matronics.com> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: What i
s the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel?> Date: Wed, 30 May 20
07 09:24:09 +0100> > The attached drawing is of the "sled" which I use for
access to the rear> of the Europa. Works very well and cost little to make.
> > I hope this helps> > Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear> Europa Club Mo
ds Rep (Trigear)> e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk > or direct g-iani@ntlworld
.com>
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Subject: | Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? |
Hello Graham! Interesting discussion on the Whirlwind. The CAF report was
done with the original design blades but Jim wasn't completely satisfied
with that so he redesigned the airfoil and twist to get better performance.
The "numbers" changed quite a bit increasing climb rate by over 100 fpm and
shortening take off roll by 100 feet. This is the current design supplied by
Whirlwind as far as I know.... And yes, it was the single best performance
enhancement I ever made to N111EU. It is more complex than just bolting on
the Airmaster but I like that the weight (and rotating mass) is so minimal.
My installed weight including governer, cable control, spinner and backing
plates and of course, the propeller assembly came in at 13.5 lbs. Anyway,
have a great summer! I will be in Sweden, Gotland June 5 til June 21 at my
friend's airport ESVB (Bunge) and we would love to see some Europas fly
there. You can get information about the airport on line.
Kim prout
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Subject: | Propeller choice - Whirlwind? |
Is whirlwind making these? I phoned them up about 18 month ago when I was
still hopeful that I wd finish this century and they said that they no
longer produce the Europa prop.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kim Prout
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 09:16
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller choice - Whirlwind?
Hello Graham! Interesting discussion on the Whirlwind. The CAF report was
done with the original design blades but Jim wasn't completely satisfied
with that so he redesigned the airfoil and twist to get better performance.
The "numbers" changed quite a bit increasing climb rate by over 100 fpm and
shortening take off roll by 100 feet. This is the current design supplied by
Whirlwind as far as I know.... And yes, it was the single best performance
enhancement I ever made to N111EU. It is more complex than just bolting on
the Airmaster but I like that the weight (and rotating mass) is so minimal.
My installed weight including governer, cable control, spinner and backing
plates and of course, the propeller assembly came in at 13.5 lbs. Anyway,
have a great summer! I will be in Sweden, Gotland June 5 til June 21 at my
friend's airport ESVB (Bunge) and we would love to see some Europas fly
there. You can get information about the airport on line.
Kim prout
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Subject: | Propeller choice - Whirlwind? |
Yes they are making these. I spoke to them just yesterday. It is the
series 100. Price is $4k. It is on their website.
http://www.whirlwindaviation.com/series100.php
--- William Daniell <wdaniell@etb.net.co> wrote:
> <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
>
> Is whirlwind making these? I phoned them up about 18 month ago when
> I was
> still hopeful that I wd finish this century and they said that they
> no
> longer produce the Europa prop.
>
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Subject: | Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? |
If the prop was designed for the Europa, what's with the 66"
diameter?...Isn't that a tad large?
Fred
On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 10:13 AM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> <asarangan@yahoo.com>
>
> Yes they are making these. I spoke to them just yesterday. It is the
> series 100. Price is $4k. It is on their website.
> http://www.whirlwindaviation.com/series100.php
>
> --- William Daniell <wdaniell@etb.net.co> wrote:
>
>> <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
>>
>> Is whirlwind making these? I phoned them up about 18 month ago when
>> I was
>> still hopeful that I wd finish this century and they said that they
>> no
>> longer produce the Europa prop.
--
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Subject: | Lipps prop for Europa |
On Monday, May 28, 2007, at 06:56 AM, Mike Gregory wrote:
Has anyone tried an Elippse propeller on a Europa? See articlewww.batterso
n.net/EAA499/Issue77_8-13.pdf which makes some interestingpoints about prop
eller design.The referenced article is worth a read if you're interested in
this topic. Pictures of an Ellipse prop on a Lancair are astonishing...at
least they were to me. Intrigued, I emailed Paul Lipps, excerpt as follows:
idst of building a Europa XS and your article (www.batterson.net/EAA499/Iss
ue77_8-13.pdf) was brought to my attention in an online Europa discussion o
n optimizing propellers. Thanks for making the esoterica (somewhat) compreh
ensible to a non-techie like myself. Your thinking and design work is aweso
me!..w/ awesome results in efficiency.I noted your ref. to Craig Catto...(C
raig has made one Europa flyer quite happy (Glenn Crowder) and I've had som
e email exchanges w/ him on this topic; I think he is also is doing some fi
ne work...I recall Craig as an audacious 15 yr. old carving his own props w
hen the Easy Riser biplane hang glider was first being powered to start the
ultralight movement...I was an ER dealer at the time, but that's another s
tory.Many Europas are flying w/ Warp Drive blades (62" dia.) in an Airmaste
r electric hub and there's general acknowledgment of some shortcomings of t
his arrangement; many are also using FP props. Though the conventional wi
sdom is that a variable pitch prop is essential to optimize performance in
the Europa, Craig's prop for Glenn Crowder challenges that assumption. Most
Europas are powered w/ the Rotax 912S or 914; a few have Subarus and Jabar
u 3300s; there's one flying w/ a CAM 125 (Honda derivative) which I hope to
use in my bird...engine comes w/ an SAE 1 mounting plate.So my question to
you is...would you be at all interested in looking into an optimum prop fo
r the Europa? Are you set up for this, and how would you go about it? Does
Craig do all your fabrication work? In your article you say,I would like
to design propellers for various and sundryaircraft, but in order for me to
design a prop for a plane, Ihave to be able to form a drag model of the pl
ane for myequations. The best way to do this is to have one of myprops inst
alled on a plane and then measure the plane=D5sperformance with it. So far
I only have the two props, andthe 2-blade is on loan for a race plane for R
eno. I canform a less-accurate model by measuring the chord andangle of som
eone=D5s prop every inch from the spinner tothe tip and using that data, al
ong with the full-throttle performanceof the plane with that prop to obtain
the dragmodel. This requires the use of a very accurate electronictach, an
d flying the plane around a wide circlewhile measuring GPS-derived ground s
peed and holdinga constant altitude to minimize speed variations. It=D5s al
sohelpful to have a fuel-flow meter in order to determinethe actual install
ed engine horsepower, not the exaggerationsof some of the engine-makers!I w
ould be happy to attempt to generate the info and data which you would need
.Fred
Paul Lipps replied:> Hi, Fred!
> I have a 62" Great American prop which I have tested on my
> Lancair and possibly I could loan that out for testing since I know
> its characteristics. A '98 book I have lists the Europa as having a
> wing area of 95 sq. ft. Since drag is pretty much proportional to wing
> area on clean designs such as the Europa and Lancair. I have 125 HP, a
> wing area of 77 sq. ft., and cruise at 201 mph TAS at 10,000' dalt.
> With equal engine power and a retract gear, I would expect your TAS to
> be 201*(77/95)^1/3 or about 187 mph/163 kt. with a high efficiency
> prop, somewhat less with fixed gear.
> Paul
...and I replied:
> Paul...How nice to get such a prompt and thoughtful reply...thank you!
>
>> I have a 62" Great American prop which I have tested on my
>> Lancair and possibly I could loan that out for testing since I know
>> its characteristics.
>
> That's quite an offer! Before I share your email w/ the Europa
> community, I wanted to check on the prop mounting/bolt circle; since
> you've used it on your 0-235, would that mean it has an SAE 1 bolt
> circle? If so, that means it would be a challenge to mount it on a
> Rotax, unless someone has an adaptor plate. The guy who's flying w/
> Craig's prop does use the SAE 1; however he's flying w/ a Subaru and
> claiming (I think) 130 hp. Ideally, for your purposes, I suspect we'd
> be best to find someone w/ a Rotax who was game...however, I recall
> Craig's strong reluctance to do a prop w/ a Rotax bolt circle due to
> pulsing and other serious structural issues.
>
>> A '98 book I have lists the Europa as having a wing area of 95 sq.
>> ft. Since drag is pretty much proportional to wing area on clean
>> designs such as the Europa and Lancair. I have 125 HP, a wing area of
>> 77 sq. ft., and cruise at 201 mph TAS at 10,000' dalt. With equal
>> engine power and a retract gear, I would expect your TAS to be
>> 201*(77/95)^1/3 or about 187 mph/163 kt. with a high efficiency prop,
>> somewhat less with fixed gear.
>> Paul
>
> Man...you've got a sweet airplane...and the pixs of your prop are
> outta sight.
>
> The published specs and performance #'s for the Europa can be accessed
> at
> www.europa-aircraft.co.uk/ (click on Specifications). Plane comes as
> fixed tri gear or semi-retracted monowheel w/ outriggers. As to your
> comparison of wing areas, I've been led to believe that the Europa
> airfoil is one of exceptional low drag, worked out by Don Dykins who
> put the wings on most of the Airbusses. I don't know off hand what
> kind of prop was used for the published #'s but I can find out if
> you're interested.
>
> In any event, let me know about your GA prop bolt circle...the 62"
> dia. would work just fine. As I said, there's much discussion about
> optimal props on the Europa matronics forum...this could get
> interesting!
>
> Fred
This morning Paul confirmed that his 62" Great American prop has an SAE
1,
4 3/8" hole circle.
So here's the opportunity as I see it:
Paul's prop program can generate an optimal FP prop for the Europa if
he can get flight data from a Europa flying w/ a prop with known data;
he is willing to lend such a prop (i.e., 62" Great American prop) to a
Europa flyer who would be willing to generate flight data. I believe
that I'm correct in thinking that extrapolations could be made from
such flight data so that the program could spit out optimally efficient
designs suited for various engines...forgive me, but I'm in this way
over my head.
(w/ regard to the bolt circle issue, SAE 1 vs. the Rotax bolt circle, I
believe adaptors are available.)
Would anyone (whose Europa if flying) be game to give this a go?
Fred
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Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Lipps prop for Europa |
Fred, Gregg and all,
I think that every builder and Europa flyer is interested in the
development and research of Paul's propeller. If you don't find someone
in the neighbourhood of Paul Lipps, then you may export his 62"
propeller to me in Belgium.
Karel Vranken, #447 Mono XS Rotax 912ULS Airmaster CS, only 35 hours so
far.
----- Original Message -----
From: glenn crowder
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:14 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Lipps prop for Europa
On Monday, May 28, 2007, at 06:56 AM, Mike Gregory wrote:
Has anyone tried an Elippse propeller on a Europa? See article
www.batterson.net/EAA499/Issue77_8-13.pdf which makes some
interesting
points about propeller design.
The referenced article is worth a read if you're interested in this
topic. Pictures of an Ellipse prop on a Lancair are astonishing...at
least they were to me. Intrigued, I emailed Paul Lipps, excerpt as
follows:
To: elippse@sbcglobal.net
Subject: a prop for the Europa
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