---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/30/07: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:24 AM - Re: Tour de France 2007 (William Mills) 2. 01:25 AM - Re: Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? (G-IANI) 3. 01:29 AM - Re: Tour de France 2007 (William Mills) 4. 01:35 AM - Propeller choice (brian Williams) 5. 05:13 AM - Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? (Gilles Thesee) 6. 05:43 AM - Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? (Graham Singleton) 7. 06:05 AM - Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? (rampil) 8. 07:09 AM - Re: Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? (glenn crowder) 9. 07:15 AM - Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? (Kim Prout) 10. 08:19 AM - Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? (William Daniell) 11. 10:16 AM - Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? (Andrew Sarangan) 12. 11:08 AM - Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? (Fred Klein) 13. 11:14 AM - Lipps prop for Europa (glenn crowder) 14. 03:06 PM - Re: Lipps prop for Europa (karelvranken) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:24:15 AM PST US From: "William Mills" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tour de France 2007 Hi Bob, It very much looks like I will have to drop out of your tour. I waited until the last minute, because I was not sure if Diana would be able to cope by herself. In case you were not aware, she had a replacement hip revision at the end of April and has to keep weight off her right leg for 6 to 8 weeks. She must also limit any movement of the hip joint to less than 90 degs, so she cannot pick anything up off the floor. She also cannot climb stairs, so it is quite restrictive. She is OK for a couple of days, but a week would be too long at this stage. Hopefully she will be OK by the 6 Nations, which will be about 7 weeks. So sorry to let you down at the last minute, but I hope you will have a reasonable number of A/C for the tour without me. Best wishes and I will keep my fingers crossed for good weather. William ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:25:42 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? The attached drawing is of the "sled" which I use for access to the rear of the Europa. Works very well and cost little to make. I hope this helps Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:29:48 AM PST US From: "William Mills" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tour de France 2007 Sorry Bob and All, My last message was a mistake, because it was intended for Bob alone. It is too easy to click on the reply button! Regards, William Do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:35:05 AM PST US From: "brian Williams" Subject: Europa-List: Propeller choice Have you you considered the Avtek Idrovario, it can be retrofitted using hydraulics via the hollow gearbox output shaft, most Pioneer 300 have them fitted and reports are that it is very good especially in the constant speed mode. The control can be manual or the electronic constant speed unit. www.avtek.it Brian ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:28 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? Andrew Sarangan a crit : > > Thanks for that information. Whirl Wind is local for me (Ohio), and I > had not realized that their 100-series prop was designed for the > Europa. It looks like the photo on their website is also that of the > Europa. But I am a bit uneasy about modifying the 914's oil system, and > also about losing the auxilary pad (which I had planned for a second > alternator). I spoke to Whirl Wind and they said an electric governor > is a possibility, but I did not press him for details. > Andrew and all, Here are some thoughts : - The 91X series drive pad does not turn fast enough to provide significant output from available alternators. You won't have more than about 12 amps. Here is a more efficient way to add an alternator (French only at the moment I'm afraid...). The original idea is from a Europa builder. http://contrails.free.fr/elec_second_alternateur.php - According to the feedback from numerous CS prop owners, an electric prop is much more troublesome than a hydraulic one. Most of them are to slow to be actually constant speed. - Concerning the PV 50 blades, no wonder they are so good : they were originally designed for the MCR/Ban-Bi by French aerodynamicist Michel Colomban. - By the way, no one seems to mention the MT Propeller designs with Colomban blades, used on the MCR 4S. The aircraft size, weight and speed are similar to the Europa. FWIW, Regards, Gilles Thesee http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:31 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? Gilles I didn't know that! I'm niot surorised Colomban did the design. The problem with MT is the cost and weight. I haven't seen the one for the MCR4s, is that lighter? Graham Gilles Thesee wrote: > > > - Concerning the PV 50 blades, no wonder they are so good : they were > originally designed for the MCR/Ban-Bi by French aerodynamicist Michel > Colomban. > - By the way, no one seems to mention the MT Propeller designs with > Colomban blades, used on the MCR 4S. The aircraft size, weight and speed > are similar to the Europa. > > FWIW, > Regards, > Gilles Thesee > http://contrails.free.fr > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:52 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? From: "rampil" Giles and all, The alternator which I obtained from FlightCrafters mounts on the take-off spline from the gearbox and provides at least 20 Amps to my system at cruise (5000 rpm). Perhaps more, I have not loaded it more. It is rated at 35-40 A. The alternator is a Denso model used in the old Geo Metro 3 Cyl and has had its faceplate machined to fit on the Rotax's gear box with four bolts Ira -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115537#115537 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:37 AM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: What is the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel? Thanks Ian and everyone else who contributed ideas. Hopefully someone will hear me screaming and kicking and yank me out before I do too much damage! Glenn> From: g-iani@ntlwor ld.com> To: europa-list@matronics.com> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: What i s the best size and location for Mod 70 access panel?> Date: Wed, 30 May 20 07 09:24:09 +0100> > The attached drawing is of the "sled" which I use for access to the rear> of the Europa. Works very well and cost little to make. > > I hope this helps> > Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear> Europa Club Mo ds Rep (Trigear)> e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk > or direct g-iani@ntlworld .com> _________________________________________________________________ Change is good. See what=92s different about Windows Live Hotmail. www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/default.html?locale=en-us&ocid=TX T_TAGLM_HMWL_reten_changegood_0507 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:45 AM PST US From: Kim Prout Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? Hello Graham! Interesting discussion on the Whirlwind. The CAF report was done with the original design blades but Jim wasn't completely satisfied with that so he redesigned the airfoil and twist to get better performance. The "numbers" changed quite a bit increasing climb rate by over 100 fpm and shortening take off roll by 100 feet. This is the current design supplied by Whirlwind as far as I know.... And yes, it was the single best performance enhancement I ever made to N111EU. It is more complex than just bolting on the Airmaster but I like that the weight (and rotating mass) is so minimal. My installed weight including governer, cable control, spinner and backing plates and of course, the propeller assembly came in at 13.5 lbs. Anyway, have a great summer! I will be in Sweden, Gotland June 5 til June 21 at my friend's airport ESVB (Bunge) and we would love to see some Europas fly there. You can get information about the airport on line. Kim prout ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:49 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? Is whirlwind making these? I phoned them up about 18 month ago when I was still hopeful that I wd finish this century and they said that they no longer produce the Europa prop. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kim Prout Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 09:16 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? Hello Graham! Interesting discussion on the Whirlwind. The CAF report was done with the original design blades but Jim wasn't completely satisfied with that so he redesigned the airfoil and twist to get better performance. The "numbers" changed quite a bit increasing climb rate by over 100 fpm and shortening take off roll by 100 feet. This is the current design supplied by Whirlwind as far as I know.... And yes, it was the single best performance enhancement I ever made to N111EU. It is more complex than just bolting on the Airmaster but I like that the weight (and rotating mass) is so minimal. My installed weight including governer, cable control, spinner and backing plates and of course, the propeller assembly came in at 13.5 lbs. Anyway, have a great summer! I will be in Sweden, Gotland June 5 til June 21 at my friend's airport ESVB (Bunge) and we would love to see some Europas fly there. You can get information about the airport on line. Kim prout ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:43 AM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? Yes they are making these. I spoke to them just yesterday. It is the series 100. Price is $4k. It is on their website. http://www.whirlwindaviation.com/series100.php --- William Daniell wrote: > > > Is whirlwind making these? I phoned them up about 18 month ago when > I was > still hopeful that I wd finish this century and they said that they > no > longer produce the Europa prop. > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:17 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller choice - Whirlwind? From: Fred Klein If the prop was designed for the Europa, what's with the 66" diameter?...Isn't that a tad large? Fred On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 10:13 AM, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > > > Yes they are making these. I spoke to them just yesterday. It is the > series 100. Price is $4k. It is on their website. > http://www.whirlwindaviation.com/series100.php > > --- William Daniell wrote: > >> >> >> Is whirlwind making these? I phoned them up about 18 month ago when >> I was >> still hopeful that I wd finish this century and they said that they >> no >> longer produce the Europa prop. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:44 AM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: Europa-List: Lipps prop for Europa On Monday, May 28, 2007, at 06:56 AM, Mike Gregory wrote: Has anyone tried an Elippse propeller on a Europa? See articlewww.batterso n.net/EAA499/Issue77_8-13.pdf which makes some interestingpoints about prop eller design.The referenced article is worth a read if you're interested in this topic. Pictures of an Ellipse prop on a Lancair are astonishing...at least they were to me. Intrigued, I emailed Paul Lipps, excerpt as follows: idst of building a Europa XS and your article (www.batterson.net/EAA499/Iss ue77_8-13.pdf) was brought to my attention in an online Europa discussion o n optimizing propellers. Thanks for making the esoterica (somewhat) compreh ensible to a non-techie like myself. Your thinking and design work is aweso me!..w/ awesome results in efficiency.I noted your ref. to Craig Catto...(C raig has made one Europa flyer quite happy (Glenn Crowder) and I've had som e email exchanges w/ him on this topic; I think he is also is doing some fi ne work...I recall Craig as an audacious 15 yr. old carving his own props w hen the Easy Riser biplane hang glider was first being powered to start the ultralight movement...I was an ER dealer at the time, but that's another s tory.Many Europas are flying w/ Warp Drive blades (62" dia.) in an Airmaste r electric hub and there's general acknowledgment of some shortcomings of t his arrangement; many are also using FP props. Though the conventional wi sdom is that a variable pitch prop is essential to optimize performance in the Europa, Craig's prop for Glenn Crowder challenges that assumption. Most Europas are powered w/ the Rotax 912S or 914; a few have Subarus and Jabar u 3300s; there's one flying w/ a CAM 125 (Honda derivative) which I hope to use in my bird...engine comes w/ an SAE 1 mounting plate.So my question to you is...would you be at all interested in looking into an optimum prop fo r the Europa? Are you set up for this, and how would you go about it? Does Craig do all your fabrication work? In your article you say,I would like to design propellers for various and sundryaircraft, but in order for me to design a prop for a plane, Ihave to be able to form a drag model of the pl ane for myequations. The best way to do this is to have one of myprops inst alled on a plane and then measure the plane=D5sperformance with it. So far I only have the two props, andthe 2-blade is on loan for a race plane for R eno. I canform a less-accurate model by measuring the chord andangle of som eone=D5s prop every inch from the spinner tothe tip and using that data, al ong with the full-throttle performanceof the plane with that prop to obtain the dragmodel. This requires the use of a very accurate electronictach, an d flying the plane around a wide circlewhile measuring GPS-derived ground s peed and holdinga constant altitude to minimize speed variations. It=D5s al sohelpful to have a fuel-flow meter in order to determinethe actual install ed engine horsepower, not the exaggerationsof some of the engine-makers!I w ould be happy to attempt to generate the info and data which you would need .Fred Paul Lipps replied:> Hi, Fred! > I have a 62" Great American prop which I have tested on my > Lancair and possibly I could loan that out for testing since I know > its characteristics. A '98 book I have lists the Europa as having a > wing area of 95 sq. ft. Since drag is pretty much proportional to wing > area on clean designs such as the Europa and Lancair. I have 125 HP, a > wing area of 77 sq. ft., and cruise at 201 mph TAS at 10,000' dalt. > With equal engine power and a retract gear, I would expect your TAS to > be 201*(77/95)^1/3 or about 187 mph/163 kt. with a high efficiency > prop, somewhat less with fixed gear. > Paul ...and I replied: > Paul...How nice to get such a prompt and thoughtful reply...thank you! > >> I have a 62" Great American prop which I have tested on my >> Lancair and possibly I could loan that out for testing since I know >> its characteristics. > > That's quite an offer! Before I share your email w/ the Europa > community, I wanted to check on the prop mounting/bolt circle; since > you've used it on your 0-235, would that mean it has an SAE 1 bolt > circle? If so, that means it would be a challenge to mount it on a > Rotax, unless someone has an adaptor plate. The guy who's flying w/ > Craig's prop does use the SAE 1; however he's flying w/ a Subaru and > claiming (I think) 130 hp. Ideally, for your purposes, I suspect we'd > be best to find someone w/ a Rotax who was game...however, I recall > Craig's strong reluctance to do a prop w/ a Rotax bolt circle due to > pulsing and other serious structural issues. > >> A '98 book I have lists the Europa as having a wing area of 95 sq. >> ft. Since drag is pretty much proportional to wing area on clean >> designs such as the Europa and Lancair. I have 125 HP, a wing area of >> 77 sq. ft., and cruise at 201 mph TAS at 10,000' dalt. With equal >> engine power and a retract gear, I would expect your TAS to be >> 201*(77/95)^1/3 or about 187 mph/163 kt. with a high efficiency prop, >> somewhat less with fixed gear. >> Paul > > Man...you've got a sweet airplane...and the pixs of your prop are > outta sight. > > The published specs and performance #'s for the Europa can be accessed > at > www.europa-aircraft.co.uk/ (click on Specifications). Plane comes as > fixed tri gear or semi-retracted monowheel w/ outriggers. As to your > comparison of wing areas, I've been led to believe that the Europa > airfoil is one of exceptional low drag, worked out by Don Dykins who > put the wings on most of the Airbusses. I don't know off hand what > kind of prop was used for the published #'s but I can find out if > you're interested. > > In any event, let me know about your GA prop bolt circle...the 62" > dia. would work just fine. As I said, there's much discussion about > optimal props on the Europa matronics forum...this could get > interesting! > > Fred This morning Paul confirmed that his 62" Great American prop has an SAE 1, 4 3/8" hole circle. So here's the opportunity as I see it: Paul's prop program can generate an optimal FP prop for the Europa if he can get flight data from a Europa flying w/ a prop with known data; he is willing to lend such a prop (i.e., 62" Great American prop) to a Europa flyer who would be willing to generate flight data. I believe that I'm correct in thinking that extrapolations could be made from such flight data so that the program could spit out optimally efficient designs suited for various engines...forgive me, but I'm in this way over my head. (w/ regard to the bolt circle issue, SAE 1 vs. the Rotax bolt circle, I believe adaptors are available.) Would anyone (whose Europa if flying) be game to give this a go? Fred _________________________________________________________________ Download Messenger. Start an i=92m conversation. Support a cause. Join now. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGWL_MAY07 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:07 PM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Lipps prop for Europa Fred, Gregg and all, I think that every builder and Europa flyer is interested in the development and research of Paul's propeller. If you don't find someone in the neighbourhood of Paul Lipps, then you may export his 62" propeller to me in Belgium. Karel Vranken, #447 Mono XS Rotax 912ULS Airmaster CS, only 35 hours so far. ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn crowder To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:14 PM Subject: Europa-List: Lipps prop for Europa On Monday, May 28, 2007, at 06:56 AM, Mike Gregory wrote: Has anyone tried an Elippse propeller on a Europa? See article www.batterson.net/EAA499/Issue77_8-13.pdf which makes some interesting points about propeller design. The referenced article is worth a read if you're interested in this topic. Pictures of an Ellipse prop on a Lancair are astonishing...at least they were to me. Intrigued, I emailed Paul Lipps, excerpt as follows: To: elippse@sbcglobal.net Subject: a prop for the Europa ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.