---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/05/07: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:08 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Gilles Thesee) 2. 12:15 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (nigel charles) 3. 12:32 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (nigel charles) 4. 02:58 AM - Re: William and Paul (rick) 5. 03:29 AM - Re: South Wales Fatal Europa Crash (William Mills) 6. 06:59 AM - Locating CS14 brackets (Fred Klein) 7. 07:41 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (glenn crowder) 8. 07:44 AM - Re: South Wales Fatal Europa Crash (joseph brannen) 9. 08:10 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Rob Housman) 10. 08:19 AM - Re: South Wales Fatal Europa Crash (Jeremy Davey) 11. 08:42 AM - Re: South Wales Fatal Europa Crash (glenn crowder) 12. 09:38 AM - Budding Travellers? Free charts (Richard Iddon) 13. 10:35 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Ralph K. Hallett III) 14. 12:21 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (glenn crowder) 15. 01:07 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Europa List) 16. 03:38 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Paul McAllister) 17. 03:41 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Graham Singleton) 18. 03:44 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Graham Singleton) 19. 03:52 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Graham Singleton) 20. 03:59 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (glenn crowder) 21. 04:08 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (R.C.Harrison) 22. 07:58 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Paul McAllister) 23. 07:58 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Paul McAllister) 24. 10:49 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (nigel charles) 25. 11:50 PM - William and Paul (Laura Farmer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:24 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Andrew Sarangan a crit : > > > There is also the fact that USAF is buying up the 914 for the Predator > UAV's. > Andrew, They are not buying that many engines ;-) Michael's ananlysis may be right : the exchange rate between currencies has drastically changed within a few years. The 914 remains an expensive engine, but remember that what counts is the mission cost. And given the respective fuel rates, our American friends still fly for less than the Europeans. BTW, the Jabiru 3300 compares with the 912S. In Europe, prices en weight are about the same. Regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:50 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? The other thing that makes the price look so high for USA builders is the present low value of the dollar. I also suspect the price differential between the 914 and the 912(S) has increased due to the USA military buying so many 914's. Whilst I appreciate that the turbo is useful in high altitude environments the 912S is enough power for most Europas (especially when it has a constant speed prop). Nigel Charles -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: 04 June 2007 23:11 Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Because they can...... -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 3:14 PM Subject: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? The last time I checked (which was admittedly four or five year ago), an uncertified 914 was selling for $18k. Now it is up to almost $30k. With a hydraulic governor, I am looking at close to $35k. What's up with these prices?? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:32:51 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? It is worth bearing in mind that the Subaru is at least 50lb heavier than the Rotax. This extra weight can be very significant. I know of one Subaru powered Europa that is up to max T/O weight when it is full of fuel with two adults aboard before any baggage has been loaded. This is also one of the reasons the Wilksch diesel has not been successful with the Europa (apart from its slow development). Heavy engines also give C of G problems. To balance the heavier engine, either the battery needs to be mounted right at the back of the fuselage or lead added. This adds inertia which does tend to make control of the aircraft a little more difficult (particularly relevant for monowheel Europas on hard runways). Nigel Charles -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of glenn crowder Sent: 04 June 2007 23:06 Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Can't help but mention the Soob option. Sure been a winner for me for five years. Same or better performance than the 914 with half the price. I did have to adjust the valves once. Glenn > Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:13:57 -0700 > From: asarangan@yahoo.com > Subject: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > > The last time I checked (which was admittedly four or five year ago), > an uncertified 914 was selling for $18k. Now it is up to almost $30k. > With a hydraulic governor, I am looking at close to $35k. What's up > with the============ > > > _____ Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search Club. Join Live Search Club! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:58:21 AM PST US From: "rick" Subject: RE: Europa-List: William and Paul I wonder if it's possible for somebody who is aware of the arrangements that are being made in the aftermath of the Friday tragedy could let either the list or myself (07853 356371 or rick@motafile.co.uk)know the details. Ray and I offer our sincere condolences to Diana and the family. We have lost two very dear friends. Rick Morris G-RIKS -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ivor.phillips Sent: 04 June 2007 12:38 Subject: RE: Europa-List: William and Paul --> What can I say that hasn't already been said by People more eloquent than me, I had known William for several years and he has been a great help in my Build, especially with all things Woodcomp, I was delighted to accept his invitation last year to accompany him on the Europa trip to the canaries, A great Guy and superb aviator, amply demonstrated by the landing at Lanzarote with 25 knot crosswind in rain, I will miss his friendly banter and smiling countenance, My sincere condolences to both families at this sad time, Ivor Phillips 12:47 12:47 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:29:41 AM PST US From: "William Mills" Subject: Re: Europa-List: South Wales Fatal Europa Crash Thank you Graham, appology accepted. It is a very difficult time for us all. Josephine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 10:25 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: South Wales Fatal Europa Crash > > > Dear Josephine > Please accept my apopogies for my earlier remarks. I have read my email > again and you are right, it does appear that I implied pilot error which > was not at all what I intended to say. > Some years ago I made a wrong decision, to continue flying rather than > accept a controlled crash. It almost cost me my own life. That was what > was in my mind when I wrote of my saddness about William. He and I had > considerable respect for each others opinions about many things. > Upsetting his family is the last thing I would want to do but now I've > done it and I'm sorry. > Graham > > William Mills wrote: >> >> >> Mr Singleton, >> >> It saddens me when in such tragic circumstances someone can be so wildly >> speculative when so few details are known. You assume my father was >> piloting the plane and assume that it was pilot error. Josephine (Nee >> Mills) > > > -- > 269.8.3/824 - Release Date: 29/05/2007 13:01 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:32 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Locating CS14 brackets From: Fred Klein Thank you Keith, Jos, Brian, and Bob for your very helpful responses to my request for suggestions...those W16 bolts are comin' out!....I very much appreciate the collective wisdom of this forum...I can't imagine building in isolation. Fred A194 do not archive On Monday, June 4, 2007, at 07:08 PM, Keith Hickling wrote: > > > Fred, > Further to Brian's suggestion of heating to remove the bolt through > the spar, it is probably worth mentioning that the current manual also > points out that it is often necessary to modify the position of this > bolt after bonding in the cockpit module as things seem to move a bit > during this procedure causing the spar bolt for W16 to come slightly > out of alignment with the CS14 bolt. I had to reposition it, but > fortunately had not floxed it in. So it might be a good idea for you > not to flox it in again until after you do the final alignment with > the wings rigged. > > Regards, > Keith Hickling, > New Zealand. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Klein" > > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 5:55 AM > Subject: Europa-List: Locating CS14 brackets > > >> >> I am in the process of "Mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets in >> cockpit module". >> >> I note on p.14-5, Step 10, a requirement for utilising the W16 >> bellcrank pivot holes in the spars...on p. 14-4 the manual mentions >> removing the W16 bolts "as you'll need the holes when jigging up for >> the brackets to support the fuselage mounted quick-connect >> bellcranks". >> >> Unfortunately, way back on p. 8-11, my manual calls for the >> counterbored holes for said bolts to be filled with flox over the >> heads of the bolts...consequently, I cannot remove them. >> >> I've since learned from Roger @ E04 that the manual has been revised >> to alert builders of the need to defer floxing in the W16 bolts until >> much later. >> >> Tentatively, I'm thinking to get a short length of tubing and thread >> it to receive the W16 bolts and then using this as a coupling to the >> 1/4" threaded rod which the manual calls for to be check-nutted to >> the CS14 bracket...hopefully, when this is all threaded together it >> will signify that the CS14 bracket is in its proper location. >> >> I'm wondering if others have faced and dealt with this situation and >> would appreciate any suggestions. >> >> Thanks much...Fred A194 >> >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses and >> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is >> believed to be clean. >> >> >> >> > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:01 AM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Well, its been a real easy lander for me, and I fly a mono only on hard runways at high altitudes. No ground loops, no "issues". Weight is identical to most 914 powered monos with CS props at 930 lbs. Too much power is just enough! Two up in the summert ime the 912S powered LSA's around my field are total dogs at this altitude, barely clearing the power lines at the end of the field! Glenn From: nwcmc@tiscali.co.ukTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europa-L ist: What's up with the cost of 914?Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 08:30:20 +0100 It is worth bearing in mind that the Subaru is at least 50lb heavier than t he Rotax. This extra weight can be very significant. I know of one Subaru p owered Europa that is up to max T/O weight when it is full of fuel with two adults aboard before any baggage has been loaded. This is also one of the reasons the Wilksch diesel has not been successful with the Europa (apart f rom its slow development). Heavy engines also give C of G problems. To balance the heavier engine, eit her the battery needs to be mounted right at the back of the fuselage or le ad added. This adds inertia which does tend to make control of the aircraft a little more difficult (particularly relevant for monowheel Europas on ha rd runways). Nigel Charles -----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of glenn crowderSent: 04 June 2007 23:06To: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europa-List: W hat's up with the cost of 914? Can't help but mention the Soob option. Sure been a winner for me for fiv e years. Same or better performance than the 914 with half the price. I d id have to adjust the valves once. Glenn> Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:13:57 -0700> From: asarangan@yahoo.co m> Subject: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?> To: europa-list@m an@yahoo.com>> > > The last time I checked (which was admittedly four or fi ve year ago),> an uncertified 914 was selling for $18k. Now it is up to alm ost $30k.> With a hydraulic governor, I am looking at close to $35k. What's up> with the=============> > > Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search Club. Jo in Live Search Club! - The Europa-List Email Forum - --> http ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! Check out the New MSN Mobile! http://mobile.msn.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:28 AM PST US From: joseph brannen Subject: Re: Europa-List: South Wales Fatal Europa Crash There are elements in the crash reports that are suggestive of composite aircraft response to lightning strikes. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:36 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? On this date in 2002 one Euro was worth US$0.94 but today that same Euro is worth US$1.35 so the exchange rate alone would make that US$18,000 increase to almost US$29,000. Our government spends our tax money like a drunken sailor while the EU is much more prudent. The inevitable result is a dollar that is not worth what it once was. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:14 PM Subject: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? The last time I checked (which was admittedly four or five year ago), an uncertified 914 was selling for $18k. Now it is up to almost $30k. With a hydraulic governor, I am looking at close to $35k. What's up with these prices?? ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:30 AM PST US From: "Jeremy Davey" Subject: RE: Europa-List: South Wales Fatal Europa Crash Joseph, Nothing I saw in the reports indicated that. Perhaps we should be careful to avoid speculating at this stage: I understand that the AAIB are doing their usual thorough job and I'm sure we are all anxious to hear informed news of the cause of this dreadful tragedy. Regards, Jeremy -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of joseph brannen Sent: 05 June 2007 15:44 Subject: Re: Europa-List: South Wales Fatal Europa Crash There are elements in the crash reports that are suggestive of composite aircraft response to lightning strikes. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:45 AM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: RE: Europa-List: South Wales Fatal Europa Crash This is a very unfortunate combination of events for William, Paul, the f amilies, and fellow pilots. As an aviator, we want to know the exact circumstances that caused the ev ent but probably won't know for months, and maybe never, exactly what factors w ere involved. I had a similiar occurence last year when a highly respected pilot went d own in clear blue conditions only 20 miles from departure on the way to a fly in i n Oklahoma. Very sad. Glenn > From: europaflyer_3@msn.com> To: europa-list@matronics.com> Subject: RE: Europa-List: South Wales Fatal Europa Crash> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 16:16:4 @msn.com>> > Joseph,> > Nothing I saw in the reports indicated that. Perhap s we should be careful to> avoid speculating at this stage: I understand th at the AAIB are doing their> usual thorough job and I'm sure we are all anx ious to hear informed news of> the cause of this dreadful tragedy.> > Regar ds,> Jeremy> > -----Original Message-----> From: owner-europa-list-server@m atronics.com> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of joseph brannen> Sent: 05 June 2007 15:44> To: europa-list@matronics.com> Su bject: Re: Europa-List: South Wales Fatal Europa Crash> > --> Europa-List m essage posted by: joseph brannen > > There are element s in the crash reports that are> suggestive of composite aircraft response ========================> _ ========================> > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! Check out the New MSN Mobile! http://mobile.msn.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:47 AM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: Europa-List: Budding Travellers? Free charts I have just gone mad and bought a complete set of VFR charts for the continent. I was about to throw my old ones away when it struck me that someone might be able to use them for planning/ backup etc. I have Jeppesen charts for all of Germany (x6) northern Italy (x2) Ireland (x2) Belgium/Netherlands, Denmark, Czech, Switzerland and Austria, all vintage 2004 Also France, 4 x ICAO from 2006. Yours for the cost of postage if anyone has a use for them. Richard Iddon G-RIXS 04/06/2007 18:43 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:20 AM PST US From: "Ralph K. Hallett III" Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Glenn, Just for interest sake, where do you fly out of? I will be flying from Stead, NV( SD4) where summer density altitudes are 8000+. Ralph 914 xs mg glenn crowder wrote: > Well, its been a real easy lander for me, and I fly a mono only on > hard runways at high > altitudes. No ground loops, no "issues". Weight is identical to most > 914 powered monos with > CS props at 930 lbs. Too much power is just enough! Two up in the > summertime the 912S powered LSA's around my field are total dogs at > this altitude, barely clearing the power lines at the end of the field! > > Glenn > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? > Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 08:30:20 +0100 > > > It is worth bearing in mind that the Subaru is at least 50lb > heavier than the Rotax. This extra weight can be very significant. > I know of one Subaru powered Europa that is up to max T/O weight > when it is full of fuel with two adults aboard before any baggage > has been loaded. This is also one of the reasons the Wilksch > diesel has not been successful with the Europa (apart from its > slow development). > > > > Heavy engines also give C of G problems. To balance the heavier > engine, either the battery needs to be mounted right at the back > of the fuselage or lead added. This adds inertia which does tend > to make control of the aircraft a little more difficult > (particularly relevant for monowheel Europas on hard runways). > > > > Nigel Charles > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *glenn crowder > *Sent:* 04 June 2007 23:06 > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? > > > > Can't help but mention the Soob option. Sure been a winner for > me for five years. > Same or better performance than the 914 with half the price. I > did have to adjust > the valves once. > > Glenn > > > Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:13:57 -0700 > > From: asarangan@yahoo.com > > Subject: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? > > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > > > > > > > The last time I checked (which was admittedly four or five year ago), > > an uncertified 914 was selling for $18k. Now it is up to almost $30k. > > With a hydraulic governor, I am looking at close to $35k. What's up > > with the============ > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search > Club. Join Live Search Club! > > > * * > > * * > > ** > > * - The Europa-List Email Forum -* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List* > > ** > > * - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* > > ** > > * --> http://forums.matronics.com * > > ** > > * * > > * > > arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > p://forums.matronics.com > > * > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! Check out > the New MSN Mobile > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:42 PM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Hi Ralph, same here near Denver - 8300+ DA's! Yikes! Glenn> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 10:34:06 -070 0> From: n100rh@sbcglobal.net> To: europa-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?> > --> Europa-List message pos ted by: "Ralph K. Hallett III" > > Glenn,> Just for i nterest sake, where do you fly out of? I will be flying from > Stead, NV( S D4) where summer density altitudes are 8000+.> Ralph> 914 xs mg> > glenn cr owder wrote:> > Well, its been a real easy lander for me, and I fly a mono only on > > hard runways at high> > altitudes. No ground loops, no "issues" . Weight is identical to most > > 914 powered monos with> > CS props at 930 lbs. Too much power is just enough! Two up in the > > summertime the 912S powered LSA's around my field are total dogs at > > this altitude, barely c learing the power lines at the end of the field!> > > > Glenn> > > > ------ ------------------------------------------------------------------> > From: nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk> > To: europa-list@matronics.com> > Subject: RE: Europ a-List: What's up with the cost of 914?> > Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 08:30:20 + 0100> >> >> > It is worth bearing in mind that the Subaru is at least 50lb> > heavier than the Rotax. This extra weight can be very significant.> > I know of one Subaru powered Europa that is up to max T/O weight> > when it i s full of fuel with two adults aboard before any baggage> > has been loaded . This is also one of the reasons the Wilksch> > diesel has not been succes sful with the Europa (apart from its> > slow development).> >> > > >> > Hea vy engines also give C of G problems. To balance the heavier> > engine, eit her the battery needs to be mounted right at the back> > of the fuselage or lead added. This adds inertia which does tend> > to make control of the ai rcraft a little more difficult> > (particularly relevant for monowheel Euro pas on hard runways).> >> > > >> > Nigel Charles> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -----Original Message-----> > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.c om> > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of> > *gle nn crowder> > *Sent:* 04 June 2007 23:06> > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > > *Subject:* RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?> >> > > >> > Can't help but mention the Soob option. Sure been a winner for> > me for five years.> > Same or better performance than the 914 with half the price. I> > did have to adjust> > the valves once.> > > > Glenn> >> > > Date: Mon , 4 Jun 2007 13:13:57 -0700> > > From: asarangan@yahoo.com> > > Subject: Eu ropa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?> > > To: europa-list@matronics.c an@yahoo.com>> > >> > >> > > The last time I checked (which was admittedly four or five year ago),> > > an uncertified 914 was selling for $18k. Now i t is up to almost $30k.> > > With a hydraulic governor, I am looking at clo se to $35k. What's up> > > with the=============> > >> > >> > >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------> >> > Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Jo in Live Search> > Club. Join Live Search Club!> > > >> > * *> >> > * *> >> > **> >> > * - T he Europa-List Email Forum -*> >> > **> >> > **> >> > **> >> > **> >> > * - -> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List*> >> > **> >> > * - NEW M ATRONICS WEB FORUMS -*> >> > **> >> > * --> http://forums.matronics.com *> >> > **> >> > * *> >> > *> >> > arget=_blan k>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> > p://forums.matronics.co m> >> > *> >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------- ----------------> > Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! Check out > > the New MSN Mobile > > *> >> >> =============> > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! Check out the New MSN Mobile! http://mobile.msn.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:33 PM PST US From: "Europa List" Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Rob, I must say that I am somewhat offended. I spent 4 years in the US Navy, and even on the rare occasions when I was drunk, I did not spend money as foolishly as the US government. Please be more careful with your metaphors. ;-) Vaughn Teegarden ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Housman" Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 11:09 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? > > On this date in 2002 one Euro was worth US$0.94 but today that same Euro > is > worth US$1.35 so the exchange rate alone would make that US$18,000 > increase > to almost US$29,000. Our government spends our tax money like a drunken > sailor while the EU is much more prudent. The inevitable result is a > dollar > that is not worth what it once was. > > > Best regards, > > Rob Housman > Irvine, California > Europa XS Tri-Gear > S/N A070 > Airframe complete > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:38:09 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? 930 lb for a typical mono ? Well perhaps. 3 years ago I took the weight of 19 completed XS 914T Mono Europa's with CS props and came up with an average of 865 lbs. Mine came in at 860 lbs and with what I know now I believe I could build it 20 lb lighter. With that all said, your correct, all the HP you can muster during the take off phase is highly desirable. At the risk of sparking a debate, I found the 914 to be a game changer for the aircrafts performance, but, I state this in the context of my mission profile. I typically fly 2 legs of 400 nm in the 8000 ~ 12,000' feet range. At this altitude I see 148 knots TAS with a fuel burn of 5.1 ~ 5.3 US gallons per hour. Just my 2 cents worth. Paul N378PJ 617 hours and still grinning -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of glenn crowder Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 9:40 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Well, its been a real easy lander for me, and I fly a mono only on hard runways at high altitudes. No ground loops, no "issues". Weight is identical to most 914 powered monos with CS props at 930 lbs. Too much power is just enough! Two up in the summertime the 912S powered LSA's around my field are total dogs at this altitude, barely clearing the power lines at the end of the field! Glenn ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:13 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Glenn don't disagree with your main issues, there's almost never too much power. (There can be too much torque though!) but 930lbs? The best Europa Rotax monos come in at around 780 lbs and you can really tell the difference in performance. Why carry around an extra 150lbs? Too much paint, too many steam age instruments is part of the problem. Graham glenn crowder wrote: > Well, its been a real easy lander for me, and I fly a mono only on > hard runways at high > altitudes. No ground loops, no "issues". Weight is identical to most > 914 powered monos with > CS props at 930 lbs. Too much power is just enough! Two up in the > summertime the 912S powered LSA's around my field are total dogs at this > altitude, barely clearing the power lines at the end of the field! > > Glenn ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:44:30 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Rob I wish the Brussels mob were as prudent as you suggest. We pay very high taxes whereas perhaps your mob just print extra dollars. The result is similar Graham Rob Housman wrote: > > On this date in 2002 one Euro was worth US$0.94 but today that same Euro is > worth US$1.35 so the exchange rate alone would make that US$18,000 increase > to almost US$29,000. Our government spends our tax money like a drunken > sailor while the EU is much more prudent. The inevitable result is a dollar > that is not worth what it once was. > > > Best regards, > > Rob Housman ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:47 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Paul Your real experience is worth a lot more than 2 cents. Graham Paul McAllister wrote: I typically fly 2 legs of 400 nm in the 8000 ~ 12,000' > feet range. At this altitude I see 148 knots TAS with a fuel burn of > 5.1 ~ 5.3 US gallons per hour. > > Just my 2 cents worth. > > Paul > > N378PJ ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:28 PM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Sounds identical to my numbers! Glenn> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 23:54:46 +0100> From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> To: europa-list@ matronics.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?> > ernet.com>> > Paul> Your real experience is worth a lot more than 2 cents.> Graham> > Paul McAllister wrote:> I typically fly 2 legs of 400 nm in the 8000 ~ 12,000'> > feet range. At this altitude I see 148 knots TAS with a f uel burn of > > 5.1 ~ 5.3 US gallons per hour.> > > > Just my 2 cents worth =====================> > > _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Windows Live Messenger and join the i=92m Ini tiative now. It=92s free.-- http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGWL_June07 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:56 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Hey! Paul /Graham all If anyone knows about costs of 914 it's me ! Just settled up for one and a new Woodcomp prop.! BTW Paul HP is irrelevant master of all things is the TORQUE output at the end of the shaft the prop fits to! And the rate of fuel expenditure ! Looking forward to some real comparison flying or proving all my fellow fliers have been bullshitting me ! Regards Bob H G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: 05 June 2007 23:37 Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? 930 lb for a typical mono ? Well perhaps. 3 years ago I took the weight of 19 completed XS 914T Mono Europa's with CS props and came up with an average of 865 lbs. Mine came in at 860 lbs and with what I know now I believe I could build it 20 lb lighter. With that all said, your correct, all the HP you can muster during the take off phase is highly desirable. At the risk of sparking a debate, I found the 914 to be a game changer for the aircrafts performance, but, I state this in the context of my mission profile. I typically fly 2 legs of 400 nm in the 8000 ~ 12,000' feet range. At this altitude I see 148 knots TAS with a fuel burn of 5.1 ~ 5.3 US gallons per hour. Just my 2 cents worth. Paul N378PJ 617 hours and still grinning -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of glenn crowder Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 9:40 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Well, its been a real easy lander for me, and I fly a mono only on hard runways at high altitudes. No ground loops, no "issues". Weight is identical to most 914 powered monos with CS props at 930 lbs. Too much power is just enough! Two up in the summertime the 912S powered LSA's around my field are total dogs at this altitude, barely clearing the power lines at the end of the field! Glenn ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:50 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Bob, I am indeed curious to see how the 914 compares to the Jab 3300. I suspect that at low altitude that they will be similar, but the Jab will be smoother. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am led to believe that in the UK you don't have to oportunity to operate in the 8,000 ~ 12,000 feet range as much as we do in the US, is that correct? This is where you start to see the 914 shine. I await with interest to see what your real world experiences are. Paul ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:50 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? I can't help myself..... yes, but mine weights 90 lbs less :o) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of glenn crowder Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 5:59 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Sounds identical to my numbers! Glenn > Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 23:54:46 +0100 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:26 PM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? It will be particularly interesting to see how Bob's change from the Jabiru to the Rotax affects the performance and fuel economy of his aircraft. I think it is the first time we will have such a conversion. My guess is that the numbers will improve. The use of a gearbox and liquid cooling should both contribute to better numbers. The Jabiru can only produce full power at speeds over 3000rpm which is not good efficiency for the prop. Air cooling (as proved by the automobile industry) is definitely less efficient than liquid cooling. All this should translate into better range and/or payload. Nigel Charles -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison Sent: 06 June 2007 00:08 Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Hey! Paul /Graham all If anyone knows about costs of 914 it's me ! Just settled up for one and a new Woodcomp prop.! BTW Paul HP is irrelevant master of all things is the TORQUE output at the end of the shaft the prop fits to! And the rate of fuel expenditure ! Looking forward to some real comparison flying or proving all my fellow fliers have been bullshitting me ! Regards Bob H G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: 05 June 2007 23:37 Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? 930 lb for a typical mono ? Well perhaps. 3 years ago I took the weight of 19 completed XS 914T Mono Europa's with CS props and came up with an average of 865 lbs. Mine came in at 860 lbs and with what I know now I believe I could build it 20 lb lighter. With that all said, your correct, all the HP you can muster during the take off phase is highly desirable. At the risk of sparking a debate, I found the 914 to be a game changer for the aircrafts performance, but, I state this in the context of my mission profile. I typically fly 2 legs of 400 nm in the 8000 ~ 12,000' feet range. At this altitude I see 148 knots TAS with a fuel burn of 5.1 ~ 5.3 US gallons per hour. Just my 2 cents worth. Paul N378PJ 617 hours and still grinning -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of glenn crowder Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 9:40 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Well, its been a real easy lander for me, and I fly a mono only on hard runways at high altitudes. No ground loops, no "issues". Weight is identical to most 914 powered monos with CS props at 930 lbs. Too much power is just enough! Two up in the summertime the 912S powered LSA's around my field are total dogs at this altitude, barely clearing the power lines at the end of the field! Glenn - The Europa-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:54 PM PST US From: "Laura Farmer" Subject: Europa-List: William and Paul Hello all, May I introduce myself as Paul Sweeting's fiance. On behalf of his family I would like to thank every one of you for your messages of condolence and support. They have touched us deeply and reinforced the message that Paul and William were very well liked and highly thought of. I personally have found great comfort in them, and I felt I needed to thank you personally. I have also spoken to a few of you on the phone and this has helped too - I know it is what Paul would have wanted, he always wanted me to be involved with his flying and in particular the Europa Club. I was fortunate to attend your "Late Christmas Dinner" at Bosworth in January, and meet at least a few of you. We had a thouroughly enjoyable weekend. More recently we met up with Paddy, Alastair, another gentleman I'm sorry I can't remember the name of, and of course William at a DOTH at my local airport Swansea. It was great to catch up with his friends, and "talk planes" again. As Dave Bosomworth has said, Paul contacted him last week to ask his advice about a Europa he was thinking of buying. Since Paul had met me last year we had been too busy having fun to progress any further on the construction of his own kit, and he had reached a point where he was desperate to own his own plane and take me down to France for lunch ! Every fine day he'd say " It's a great day for flying"... "When can I buy my plane?, when can I buy my plane?" like a child. Paul hadn't flown since September, and asked William if he was going on any "jollies" to take him along with him. William of course did, and Paul was very excited and looking forward to their trip together. His family and myself are of course devastated, but we take some comfort from the fact that Paul passed away doing what he loved. Flying was, as it probably is to most of you, his passion, and he was an extremely happy man when he left us. Incidentally, we are meeting with Diana and her family this evening. I do not have a date for Paul's funeral as yet, but will post it on here as soon as I have it. If any of you would like to make contact with me please do so, it is what Paul would have wanted, he always wanted me to be as "sociable" as him. Regards, Laura Farmer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.