---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/06/07: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:27 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Jos Okhuijsen) 2. 02:39 AM - Re: William & Paul (K.Pilcher) 3. 04:08 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Graham Singleton) 4. 06:11 AM - CHT sensors and temperatures, was costs 914 (Jos Okhuijsen) 5. 07:46 AM - What's up with the cost of the 914? (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 6. 09:18 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Gary Leinberger) 7. 09:57 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (glenn crowder) 8. 10:35 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Alexander Kaarsberg) 9. 02:44 PM - Re: William and Paul (karelvranken) 10. 03:51 PM - Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Bill & Sue) 11. 04:14 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Paul McAllister) 12. 04:46 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Graham Singleton) 13. 04:54 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Graham Singleton) 14. 05:02 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Graham Singleton) 15. 05:56 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Andrew Sarangan) 16. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Karl Heindl) 17. 06:37 PM - Test (Troy Maynor) 18. 06:50 PM - Re: William and Paul (europaman) 19. 08:02 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Paul McAllister) 20. 08:06 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Paul McAllister) 21. 08:10 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Paul McAllister) 22. 11:19 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Jos Okhuijsen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Hi Paul, Number 20 for you: Mine came in at 904 lbs. 914, Woodcomp CS, and the error was leather upholstery. Need some insolation here! Although at the moment, with 27 C it's too hot for taxi testing :-) What rpm and map are you reading at that speed and alitude? Regards, Jos Okhuijsen http://www.europaowners.org/kit600 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:10 AM PST US From: "K.Pilcher" Subject: Re: Europa-List:William & Paul Hi Laura, My heart goes out to you and both families. Kevin Pilcher ( G-OKEV ) ----- Original Message ----- From: Laura Farmer To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 7:49 AM Subject: Europa-List: William and Paul Hello all, May I introduce myself as Paul Sweeting's fiance. On behalf of his family I would like to thank every one of you for your messages of condolence and support. They have touched us deeply and reinforced the message that Paul and William were very well liked and highly thought of. I personally have found great comfort in them, and I felt I needed to thank you personally. I have also spoken to a few of you on the phone and this has helped too - I know it is what Paul would have wanted, he always wanted me to be involved with his flying and in particular the Europa Club. I was fortunate to attend your "Late Christmas Dinner" at Bosworth in January, and meet at least a few of you. We had a thouroughly enjoyable weekend. More recently we met up with Paddy, Alastair, another gentleman I'm sorry I can't remember the name of, and of course William at a DOTH at my local airport Swansea. It was great to catch up with his friends, and "talk planes" again. As Dave Bosomworth has said, Paul contacted him last week to ask his advice about a Europa he was thinking of buying. Since Paul had met me last year we had been too busy having fun to progress any further on the construction of his own kit, and he had reached a point where he was desperate to own his own plane and take me down to France for lunch ! Every fine day he'd say " It's a great day for flying"... "When can I buy my plane?, when can I buy my plane?" like a child. Paul hadn't flown since September, and asked William if he was going on any "jollies" to take him along with him. William of course did, and Paul was very excited and looking forward to their trip together. His family and myself are of course devastated, but we take some comfort from the fact that Paul passed away doing what he loved. Flying was, as it probably is to most of you, his passion, and he was an extremely happy man when he left us. Incidentally, we are meeting with Diana and her family this evening. I do not have a date for Paul's funeral as yet, but will post it on here as soon as I have it. If any of you would like to make contact with me please do so, it is what Paul would have wanted, he always wanted me to be as "sociable" as him. Regards, Laura Farmer. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:08:08 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Jos you need to copy Pauls radiator ducting, make sure no air can get round the sides of the radiators and that the wide part of the prop blades passes over the inlet {{;-) Graham Jos Okhuijsen wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > Number 20 for you: Mine came in at 904 lbs. 914, Woodcomp CS, and the > error was leather upholstery. Need some insolation here! Although at > the moment, with 27 C it's too hot for taxi testing :-) > What rpm and map are you reading at that speed and alitude? > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > http://www.europaowners.org/kit600 > > > > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:49 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: CHT sensors and temperatures, was costs 914 From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Hi Graham, Yes, i did close the gaps, although it could be done tighter. The problem turned out to be no problem. I have 4 x CHT and 4 x EGT. The CHT sensors i was monitoring are of the ring terminal type, and not the Rotax supplied sensors. This morning i measured the CHT of the hottest cylinder the Rotax way, and i can't get it over 95 C. The ring terminal CHT sensor then reports 137 C and reacts much faster. The Rotax CHT sensor seems to measure the cooling liquid temperature, it rises after shutdown, while the ring type sensor drops immediately. So i have to apply a correction factor. After the promised software upgrade of the Dynon 180 comes available, I will be able to see both ways of measuring CHT. Regards -- workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane http://www.europaowners.org/kit600 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:44 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of the 914? In a message dated 6/6/2007 2:58:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list@matronics.com writes: I typically fly 2 legs of 400 nm in the 8000 ~ 12,000' > feet range. At this altitude I see 148 knots TAS with a fuel burn of > 5.1 ~ 5.3 US gallons per hour. Greetings team, On a recent 758 nm cross country I saw a TAS of 146 kts at 9500' burning 4.6 gph with my Jab 3300. This was with my wife Susan and myself on board, along with about 60 lbs of baggage. I'm running a ground adjustable Sensenich hollow carbon prop set to a mid range cruise pitch, spinning at 2850 RPM in cruise flight. My bird is sealed, i.e., has positive seals on the rudder, ailerons and trim tabs, along with flap gap seals. I should also note that considerable time and attention was paid to the paint and mine has been color sanded to less than.004" waviness throughout. I have the "economy cruise" needle jet and proprietary Jabiru "stepped" needle set up installed in the Bing carby that is recommended by the Jabiru factory. N245E is a trigear and the empty weight came in at 909 lbs including "standard" items that would normally be on board such as headsets, a small tool kit, a quart of oil, fire extinguisher, charts, knee board, CO monitor, etc. The "empty" empty weight is closer to 895lbs, and includes Mod 70 and Mod 71. I used an Odyssey battery and it is mounted to the starboard footwell on the firewall. I did add 6 lbs of lead to the tail to meet the narrow C of G range for the test period as suggested by Europa, but that counterweight has since been removed. Now, with just over 100 hours on N245E, IMHO, I firmly believe the Jabiru 3300 is an excellent choice for the Europa provided that it is coupled with the Suncoast Sportplanes cowl set. I cannot speak for other cowl sets. I have flown 912S powered Europa's, both mono and trigear, and one 914 powered mono with glider wings, and in comparison, I can't detect any degradation in handling due to the few extra pounds the Jab added. However, I can appreciate the 1800 fpm climb rate I see regularly along with the smoothness of the Jab when compared to the 912S. Just so everybody will know I'm not here to trash Rotax, I also own an Aeromot AMT200S Super Ximango motorglider with a certified 912S swinging a Hoffman 3 position prop. Thus, I have working familiarity with both engines and regularly compare the two. Both are fine engines and the 912S has a slight advantage in fuel economy, (as shown in a recent 1150 nm trip in the Ximango) but, if given the choice between the Rotax 912S and the Jabiru 3300, for the money, the simplicity, the smoothness in running and the outstanding performance, I'd pick the Jabiru again over the 912S for my Europa without any hesitation or reservation whatsoever. One thing is certain: I can hardly contain myself until Airmaster releases the new hub for the Sensenich blades at Oshkosh! I wish the Brussels mob were as prudent as you suggest. We pay very high taxes whereas perhaps your mob just print extra dollars. The result is similar You are partly correct, Graham. FWIW, here at the 'Possum Werks we watch exchange rates daily between the Euro and the Dollar because we buy a lot of glider parts, cloth, resin, gel coat, etc, from various suppliers and glider manufacturers in Germany on behalf of our customers. Truth is, we here in the colonies have a trifecta working against us in regard to the exchange rate. Our taxes are too high, the Federal Reserve is (and has for several years) printing and circulating too many dollars because they are deathly afraid of even the hint of inflation, and the elite's in Congress frivolously spend our money like it is going out of style. A point to ponder for us Yanks: According to the Government Accounting Office, 2004 numbers, one-third of every dollar confiscated from you by the Federal government in the form of taxes is wasted, stolen or otherwise cannot be accounted for. So, efficient they ain't! Think about that the next time you hear a politico saying he/she wants to raise your taxes! Regards, John Lawton Dunlap, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:05 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? From: "Gary Leinberger" I think the European builders (and those Americans that have worked so hard to keep their weight down) should realize that us red white and blue American builders have heavier planes due to the need for power steering, power brakes, air conditioning and the 6 disc CD players (plus of course the fridge to keep diet cokes in) that are standard on all American Europas - obviously, as Glenn has pointed out, the correct answer to extra weight is the American hot rod approach - there is no substitute for cubic inches and extra horsepower - Tongue in Cheek Gary Leinberger A237 Almost ready to put the cockpit module in. ________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nigel charles Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 1:48 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? It will be particularly interesting to see how Bob's change from the Jabiru to the Rotax affects the performance and fuel economy of his aircraft. I think it is the first time we will have such a conversion. My guess is that the numbers will improve. The use of a gearbox and liquid cooling should both contribute to better numbers. The Jabiru can only produce full power at speeds over 3000rpm which is not good efficiency for the prop. Air cooling (as proved by the automobile industry) is definitely less efficient than liquid cooling. All this should translate into better range and/or payload. Nigel Charles -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison Sent: 06 June 2007 00:08 Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Hey! Paul /Graham all If anyone knows about costs of 914 it's me ! Just settled up for one and a new Woodcomp prop.! BTW Paul HP is irrelevant master of all things is the TORQUE output at the end of the shaft the prop fits to! And the rate of fuel expenditure ! Looking forward to some real comparison flying or proving all my fellow fliers have been bullshitting me ! Regards Bob H G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: 05 June 2007 23:37 Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? 930 lb for a typical mono ? Well perhaps. 3 years ago I took the weight of 19 completed XS 914T Mono Europa's with CS props and came up with an average of 865 lbs. Mine came in at 860 lbs and with what I know now I believe I could build it 20 lb lighter. With that all said, your correct, all the HP you can muster during the take off phase is highly desirable. At the risk of sparking a debate, I found the 914 to be a game changer for the aircrafts performance, but, I state this in the context of my mission profile. I typically fly 2 legs of 400 nm in the 8000 ~ 12,000' feet range. At this altitude I see 148 knots TAS with a fuel burn of 5.1 ~ 5.3 US gallons per hour. Just my 2 cents worth. Paul N378PJ 617 hours and still grinning -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of glenn crowder Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 9:40 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Well, its been a real easy lander for me, and I fly a mono only on hard runways at high altitudes. No ground loops, no "issues". Weight is identical to most 914 powered monos with CS props at 930 lbs. Too much power is just enough! Two up in the summertime the 912S powered LSA's around my field are total dogs at this altitude, barely clearing the power lines at the end of the field! Glenn - The Europa-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com - The Europa-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:07 AM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? You forgot the power ashtrays and cupholders, and vibrating seats! Glenn Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2 007 12:16:52 -0400From: Gary.Leinberger@millersville.eduTo: europa-list@mat ronics.com I think the European builders (and those Americans that have worked so hard to keep their weight down) should realize that us red white and blue Ameri can builders have heavier planes due to the need for power steering, power brakes, air conditioning and the 6 disc CD players (plus of course the frid ge to keep diet cokes in) that are standard on all American Europas - obvi ously, as Glenn has pointed out, the correct answer to extra weight is the American hot rod approach - there is no substitute for cubic inches and ext ra horsepower - Tongue in Cheek Gary Leinberger A237 Almost ready to put the cockpit module in. From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-serv er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nigel charlesSent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 1:48 AMTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europa-List: What's up wit h the cost of 914? It will be particularly interesting to see how Bob=92s change from the Jabi ru to the Rotax affects the performance and fuel economy of his aircraft. I think it is the first time we will have such a conversion. My guess is tha t the numbers will improve. The use of a gearbox and liquid cooling should both contribute to better numbers. The Jabiru can only produce full power a t speeds over 3000rpm which is not good efficiency for the prop. Air coolin g (as proved by the automobile industry) is definitely less efficient than liquid cooling. All this should translate into better range and/or payload. Nigel Charles -----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R.C.HarrisonSent: 06 June 2007 00:08To: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europa-List: Wh at's up with the cost of 914? Hey! Paul /Graham all If anyone knows about costs of 914 it=92s me ! Just settled up for one and a new Woodcomp prop.! BTW Paul HP is irrelevant master of all things is the TORQUE output at the end of the shaft the prop fits to! And the rate of fuel expenditure ! Looking forward to some real comparison flying or proving all my fellow fli ers have been bullshitting me ! Regards Bob H G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllisterSen t: 05 June 2007 23:37To: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? 930 lb for a typical mono ? Well perhaps. 3 years ago I took the weight of 19 completed XS 914T Mono Europa's with CS props and came up with an average of 865 lbs. Mine came in at 860 lbs and with what I know now I believe I could build it 20 lb lighter. With that all said, your correct, all the HP you can muster during the tak e off phase is highly desirable. At the risk of sparking a debate, I found the 914 to be a game changer for the aircrafts performance, but, I state this in the context of my mission p rofile. I typically fly 2 legs of 400 nm in the 8000 ~ 12,000' feet range. At this altitude I see 148 knots TAS with a fuel burn of 5.1 ~ 5.3 US gal lons per hour. Just my 2 cents worth. Paul N378PJ 617 hours and still grinning -----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of glenn crowderSent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 9:40 AMTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Eur opa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Well, its been a real easy lander for me, and I fly a mono only on hard runways at highaltitudes. No ground loops, no "issues". Weight is identic al to most 914 powered monos withCS props at 930 lbs. Too much power is ju st enough! Two up in the summertime the 912S powered LSA's around my field are total dogs at this altitude, barely clearing the power lines at the en d of the field! Glenn - The Europa-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Naviga tor?Europa-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://for ums.matronics.com - The Europa-List Email Forum - --> http:/ /www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB F ORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live Hotmail, you can personalize your inbox with your favorit e color. www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/personalize.html?locale=en-us&ocid =TXT_TAGLM_HMWL_reten_addcolor_0607 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:33 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? From: "Alexander Kaarsberg" I have recently heard of Diesel Air Limited (dair.co.uk) that is said to weigh in at 93 kg- the site looks fine but has ''UKL on application'' und er the heading price. Can anybody enlighten those in the dark about this beast? Two stroke flat four opposed-pistons, sounds as if could be simple enough to work well- and noo gearbox...cruising at 2000 rpm, reminds me of my o ld BSA one pot 500cc, (B33) a put per lightpole in fourth gear or so Alex, kit 529 in wraps waiting for a good engine, instruments, paint and the million other minor things like closing wings and fitting the other f lap and aileron. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:44:08 PM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: William and Paul Dear Laura, Pilots like William and Paul don't die. They fly away! Karel Vranken, F-PKRL ----- Original Message ----- From: Laura Farmer To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 8:49 AM Subject: Europa-List: William and Paul Hello all, May I introduce myself as Paul Sweeting's fiance. On behalf of his family I would like to thank every one of you for your messages of condolence and support. They have touched us deeply and reinforced the message that Paul and William were very well liked and highly thought of. I personally have found great comfort in them, and I felt I needed to thank you personally. I have also spoken to a few of you on the phone and this has helped too - I know it is what Paul would have wanted, he always wanted me to be involved with his flying and in particular the Europa Club. I was fortunate to attend your "Late Christmas Dinner" at Bosworth in January, and meet at least a few of you. We had a thouroughly enjoyable weekend. More recently we met up with Paddy, Alastair, another gentleman I'm sorry I can't remember the name of, and of course William at a DOTH at my local airport Swansea. It was great to catch up with his friends, and "talk planes" again. As Dave Bosomworth has said, Paul contacted him last week to ask his advice about a Europa he was thinking of buying. Since Paul had met me last year we had been too busy having fun to progress any further on the construction of his own kit, and he had reached a point where he was desperate to own his own plane and take me down to France for lunch ! Every fine day he'd say " It's a great day for flying"... "When can I buy my plane?, when can I buy my plane?" like a child. Paul hadn't flown since September, and asked William if he was going on any "jollies" to take him along with him. William of course did, and Paul was very excited and looking forward to their trip together. His family and myself are of course devastated, but we take some comfort from the fact that Paul passed away doing what he loved. Flying was, as it probably is to most of you, his passion, and he was an extremely happy man when he left us. Incidentally, we are meeting with Diana and her family this evening. I do not have a date for Paul's funeral as yet, but will post it on here as soon as I have it. If any of you would like to make contact with me please do so, it is what Paul would have wanted, he always wanted me to be as "sociable" as him. Regards, Laura Farmer. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:51 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls From: "Bill & Sue" The recent discussion on propellers has been really illuminating but inevitably I now realise how little I know about propellers in general. I had in mind the Woodcomp for our trigear -but inevitably there now seem to be lots of other props each offering various advantages but no clear winner. In general terms, could anyone explain the benefits of a three-blade prop over a two blade, and whether these outweigh the weight penalty? And, while Im seeking enlightenment, how do the benefits of electric CS props compare with the hydraulic variety? Bill Trigear 465 P.S. I ordered something from Europa by phone one lunchtime last week and was opening the package over breakfast the following morning. Credit due for excellent service methinks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116936#116936 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:31 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Jos, I took my data from the Europa club files for 914 Mono's about 3 years ago. I am sure that the sample size is bigger now. I was disappointed that mine came in at 860, I was hoping for about 840 pounds. Some of the things that I could have done better was to put on less paint and filler, particularly primer. The welding cable for the battery in the rear was weighted a lot, I think I should have used CCA cable. Another thing I wish I had investigated was the weight difference between aluminum and rubber fuel lines. Lastly, I have just put in a glass panel. This took out 6 pounds, but if I had done it from the beginning the panel would have weighted less. With that all said, I am not about to build another Europa, or rebuild the one I have, I am having way too much fun flying it. To answer your question on power settings. I typically fly at 28" @ 5000 rpm at around 8~12,000 feet. I see around 146 ~ 152 knots TAS, depending on the altitude. I have done one set of calibrations on the glass panel for TAS and I don't think its all that far off, however my panel will dump out the following (and more) parameters to a USB stick: IAS GPS ground speed GPS Heading Magnetic heading Pitch VSI OAT Pressure altitude RPM MAP Fuel flow One of these evenings I am going to fly a bunch of circles at different altitudes and calculate out the TAS for myself to see if what my panel is saying is correct or not. Paul BTW. I saw a reference to taxi testing. I would encourage you to read my article in the Europa flyer on the topic of flight testing. After my experiences my recommendation is not to do taxi testing for the mono. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:13 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Jos Paul is right, don't do any serious taxi testing, unless you still have a couple of feet of ice on your lake. I guess it's melted by now. Certainly not on tarmac. Are you going to make Ivan an offer? (btw I don't think he monitors this list.) Unless you have a convenient into wind grass runway I don't recommend you do your own first flight. Otherwise wait till the lake freezes again and do it on snow. Paul have you considered a data logger. My friend Glenn Waters has one in his amazing Berkut and it's real luxury but we ordinary mortals can't afford a Pi Systems unit. Shouldn't be too hard for you to do it with a PDA or Tablet? Graham Paul McAllister wrote: > > Jos, > > BTW. I saw a reference to taxi testing. I would encourage you to read my > article in the Europa flyer on the topic of flight testing. After my > experiences my recommendation is not to do taxi testing for the mono. > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:21 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls Bill A three blade prop will balance both mass and yaw forces. A two blade won't. There will always be a yawing vibration with a 2 blade whenever there is significant angle of attack. (Downgoing blade sees a different AoA to Upgoing one) End result is that in general 3 bladers are smoother than 2 blades. imho electric is cheaoer than hydraulic but not as fast so electric is no good for aerobatics. Graham Bill & Sue wrote: > In general terms, could anyone explain the benefits of a three-blade prop over a two blade, and whether these outweigh the weight penalty? > And, while Im seeking enlightenment, how do the benefits of electric CS props compare with the hydraulic variety? > > Bill ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:51 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Alexander there is a gearbox. It has two crankshafts which need to be geared together. It's like the old Junkers Jumo (??) engine of WW2 but horizontal instead of vertical Graham Alexander Kaarsberg wrote: > I have recently heard of Diesel Air Limited (dair.co.uk) that is said to > weigh in at 93 kg- the site looks fine but has ''UKL on application'' > under the heading price. > > Can anybody enlighten those in the dark about this beast? > > Two stroke flat four opposed-pistons, sounds as if could be simple > enough to work well- and noo gearbox...cruising at 2000 rpm, reminds me > of my old BSA one pot 500cc, (B33) a put per lightpole in fourth gear or so > > > > Alex, kit 529 in wraps waiting for a good engine, instruments, paint and > the million other minor things like closing wings and fitting the other > flap and aileron. > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:40 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Paul I wish there was some general advice on how to build light. At first, the builder is led to believe that squeegeeing every drop of epoxy is important, but I am not so sure if that is as important as painting and instrumentation. Does anyone have data on how much weight is gained after finishing and painting? --- Paul McAllister wrote: > > > Jos, > > I took my data from the Europa club files for 914 Mono's about 3 > years ago. > I am sure that the sample size is bigger now. > > I was disappointed that mine came in at 860, I was hoping for about > 840 > pounds. Some of the things that I could have done better was to put > on less > paint and filler, particularly primer. > > The welding cable for the battery in the rear was weighted a lot, I > think I > should have used CCA cable. > > Another thing I wish I had investigated was the weight difference > between > aluminum and rubber fuel lines. > > Lastly, I have just put in a glass panel. This took out 6 pounds, > but if I > had done it from the beginning the panel would have weighted less. > > > With that all said, I am not about to build another Europa, or > rebuild the > one I have, I am having way too much fun flying it. > > To answer your question on power settings. I typically fly at 28" @ > 5000 > rpm at around 8~12,000 feet. I see around 146 ~ 152 knots TAS, > depending on > the altitude. > > I have done one set of calibrations on the glass panel for TAS and I > don't > think its all that far off, however my panel will dump out the > following > (and more) parameters to a USB stick: > > IAS > GPS ground speed > GPS Heading > Magnetic heading > Pitch > VSI > OAT > Pressure altitude > RPM > MAP > Fuel flow > > One of these evenings I am going to fly a bunch of circles at > different > altitudes and calculate out the TAS for myself to see if what my > panel is > saying is correct or not. > > Paul > > BTW. I saw a reference to taxi testing. I would encourage you to > read my > article in the Europa flyer on the topic of flight testing. After my > experiences my recommendation is not to do taxi testing for the mono. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:45 PM PST US From: "Karl Heindl" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls Bill, I have the SR3000/2W 2-blade with narrow ends and wide root with a lot of twist. It is now running very smoothly, although I had a lot of problems initially with vibration, which was due to carbs not well balanced. A 3-blade seems to cancel out a lot of uneven combustion. The instrumentation was hopeless and I am now installing the Mark Burton controller. Advantages are: less weight, cheaper, better visibility when feathered for gliding, less drag, and it comes to you fully assembled ready to bolt on. There are supposed to be other advantages like high altitude performance, but have not done any serious testing yet. Apparently Kim Prout has the best performing prop ? With a weight of 13 1/2 pounds that is half the weight of most cs props. If you are building a mono, then my prop would be too long for you, Karl >From: Graham Singleton >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls >Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 00:56:32 +0100 > > > >Bill >A three blade prop will balance both mass and yaw forces. A two blade >won't. There will always be a yawing vibration with a 2 blade whenever >there is significant angle of attack. (Downgoing blade sees a different AoA >to Upgoing one) >End result is that in general 3 bladers are smoother than 2 blades. >imho electric is cheaoer than hydraulic but not as fast so electric is no >good for aerobatics. >Graham >Bill & Sue wrote: >> > >>In general terms, could anyone explain the benefits of a three-blade prop >>over a two blade, and whether these outweigh the weight penalty? >>And, while Im seeking enlightenment, how do the benefits of electric CS >>props compare with the hydraulic variety? >> >>Bill > > _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:18 PM PST US From: "Troy Maynor" Subject: Europa-List: Test This is a test to see why my posts are being stopped by a firewall. Do not archive Troy Maynor N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic Left to finish: Paint,(some) interior,engine install, (some) wiring. Weaverville, NC USA ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: William and Paul From: "europaman" So sad to hear this about William and Paul. I pray that the families and friends will find comfort, hold on to the fond memories, and continue with life all the more vigorously in their stead. They have mounted up with wings as eagles now. Troy Maynor Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:30 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Andrew, I wish I could give you a "one liner" but I can't, although it has been said that Burt Rutan proposed a test. He said that if you were thinking of adding something to your aircraft then throw it in the air. If it doesn't stay there then it probably shouldn't be put on your aircraft. Seriously though, its a more of a mind set thing. You win the battle by shaving off grams, not kilograms. Put a 100 grams here, a 100 grams there, and next thing you have added a kilo or two. The lightest Europa built was around 730 pounds I believe which was an amazing achievement. I suspect that the builder just scrutinized absolutely every thing. The things that add weight are: - Modifications - Modifications - Modifications - Filler - Primer - Paint - Upholstery - Constant speed propellers - Instrumentation - High redundancy electrical systems. Some trade offs you choose to have, for example a high redundancy electrical system (I have one) but, once you talk yourself into one thing its a slippery slope. If you want to get specific help, see if you can get a listing of the Europa weights and contact the builders who have built light aircraft. The lightest 914 mono I could find was 790 pounds.... I sure wish mine was that light. Paul ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:59 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Graham, Essential the GRT EFIS has all of the functionality of a data logger. I am planning on doing some data collection to nail the Vx and Vy speeds. If this works the way I think it does I reckon I can collect enough data in one flight to figure it out. One cool thing you can do is to do collect data during a flight, run it though a conversion program to strip out the GPS lat/lon data and feed it into Google Earth. When you play it Google Earth generates an image as viewed from the cockpit.... really cool stuff. Paul ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:18 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Jos, Please read my article on test flying. Honestly mate, its a really, really bad idea to test fly your own aircraft, try and avoid it if at all possible. I spent months trying to find someone to test fly mine and I only did it myself as a last resort. To this day I still would have preferred not to. Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 6:48 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Jos Paul is right, don't do any serious taxi testing, unless you still have a couple of feet of ice on your lake. I guess it's melted by now. Certainly not on tarmac. Are you going to make Ivan an offer? (btw I don't think he monitors this list.) Unless you have a convenient into wind grass runway I don't recommend you do your own first flight. Otherwise wait till the lake freezes again and do it on snow. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Paul, Graham, No, i won't certainly do the first flight myself. Ivan has kindly agreed to do that and bring me on type. As for taxi testing, i don't do fast testing, and only crawled on tarmac. At least i know that the Winter ASI is working, it showed 20 knots with a nice headwind. No reaction of the Dynon yet though. Weight: No vacuum pump, no steam gauges saves a bit. The factory supplied filler with epoxy was used, about 2 pounds, of which at least half was sanded away. About a pound of heavier car filler was used for fine scratches. The painter did a good job, there is still paint left from a one gallon batch. Added a generator and a second battery, both small. The interior however is heavier then i would like it to be. I remember Paul's speckle paint interior, it was looking good and must be much lighter. Well, i know an area where i can easely save 20 pounds: my owl pot belly :-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen -- workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane http://www.europaowners.org/kit600 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.