Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:19 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Brian Davies)
2. 01:02 AM - William and Paul (Laura Farmer)
3. 02:16 AM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Carl Pattinson)
4. 03:00 AM - Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Mark Burton)
5. 03:42 AM - Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Mark Burton)
6. 04:03 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Raimo Toivio)
7. 04:29 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Alexander Kaarsberg)
8. 06:31 AM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (R.C.Harrison)
9. 06:33 AM - prop balancing (Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com)
10. 07:15 AM - Re: prop balancing (Mark Burton)
11. 11:12 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
12. 12:54 PM - builder test flying his own creation? (Niels Kock)
13. 01:51 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (karelvranken)
14. 02:06 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Tony Krzyzewski)
15. 02:19 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Graham Singleton)
16. 04:01 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Graham Singleton)
17. 04:04 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Graham Singleton)
18. 04:22 PM - Re: builder test flying his own creation? (Graham Singleton)
19. 04:25 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Graham Singleton)
20. 04:34 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Graham Singleton)
21. 04:39 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Tony Krzyzewski)
22. 06:24 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (William Daniell)
23. 06:36 PM - winglets (William Daniell)
24. 07:39 PM - Test flying - "Was What's up with the cost of 914?" (Paul McAllister)
25. 11:19 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (nigel charles)
Message 1
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Subject: | What's up with the cost of 914? |
If you are a member of the Europa Club, you can look in the members only
area and follow the link to the membership list. This includes the weight
of each completed aircraft, together with a basic spec for the aircraft.
Brian Davies membership sec. Europa Club
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister
Sent: 07 June 2007 04:01
Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?
--> <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Andrew,
I wish I could give you a "one liner" but I can't, although it has been said
that Burt Rutan proposed a test. He said that if you were thinking of
adding something to your aircraft then throw it in the air. If it doesn't
stay there then it probably shouldn't be put on your aircraft.
Seriously though, its a more of a mind set thing. You win the battle by
shaving off grams, not kilograms. Put a 100 grams here, a 100 grams there,
and next thing you have added a kilo or two.
The lightest Europa built was around 730 pounds I believe which was an
amazing achievement. I suspect that the builder just scrutinized absolutely
every thing. The things that add weight are:
- Modifications
- Modifications
- Modifications
- Filler
- Primer
- Paint
- Upholstery
- Constant speed propellers
- Instrumentation
- High redundancy electrical systems.
Some trade offs you choose to have, for example a high redundancy electrical
system (I have one) but, once you talk yourself into one thing its a
slippery slope.
If you want to get specific help, see if you can get a listing of the Europa
weights and contact the builders who have built light aircraft. The
lightest 914 mono I could find was 790 pounds.... I sure wish mine was that
light.
Paul
14:38
14:38
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Subject: | William and Paul |
Hello again,
Many Thanks for all the personal messages of condolence we have received.
When we get time we hope to reply to them, but as you can imagine, there is
so much to do at this time.
Funeral arrangements for Paul as follows for anyone who wishes to attend :
Friday June 15th, Funeral service at St James' Church, Poplar Road,
Tredegar, Blaenau Gwent @ 10.15 a.m.
Cremation @ Thornhill Cemetary, Thornhill, Cardiff @ 12.00, followed by food
and refreshments @ Virginia Park Golf Club, Caerphilly.
These venues were chosen due to the large numbers anticipated - Paul had
made a lot of friends in his fairly short life.
Family flowers only, but donations in lieu to Noah's Ark Children's hospice
c/o Caerphilly Funeral Service tel 02920 862100.
I hope to get some maps sorted out, if anyone would like any directions etc
please email me.
Regards,
Laura Farmer
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Subject: | Re: Woodcomp propeller controls |
As you may know I have been researching VP/ CS propellers but it is always
difficult to come to a definitive conclusion without speaking to those who
have actually used the various propellers.
William Mills was kind enough to share his experience with me before his
tragic departure from this life.
"William, though I never had the pleasure of meeting you in person, your
departure leaves a hole in my life and reminds me of the bond that we who
take to the skies share. You are and will be sadly missed."
William had used both an Arplast and a Woodcomp propeller so was able to
give a useful comparison. This is what he said
Carl,
I had an Arplast PV50 as my first VP prop. I am afraid to say the blades
are the only good aspect of the prop. The hub mechanism is very poor which
resulted in different pitch angles between the blades at different settings,
which cause vibration. The electronic control was very unreliable and
failed in fully coarse, the motor is 6 volts operated by 12 volts to get
enough power, so they fail often and the after sales service is very poor.
That is my experience.
I now have a Woodcomp SR 3000/3 controlled by a Smart Avionics Constant
Speed Controller, which I find is an excellent combination. It is slightly
cheaper than the Arplast and half the price of the Airmaster. It also comes
fully assembled complete with a spinner, fully balanced and ready to bolt
on. May I suggest you take a good look at that before you make up your
mind.
Best wishes,
William
AND
I had a 912 with Warp Drive, then replaced it with an Arplast PV50, then
threw away their control and fitted a Smart Avionics CSC. The PV50 improved
my take-off performance a great deal. When I had done about 800 hours, I
fitted a 912s and a Woodcomp 2000/3 with a Smart Avionics CSC. I have now
changed the 2000 for their latest SR 3000/3 with reverse thrust and I find
this an excellent combination.
Best wishes,
William
I was very interested in the Whirlwind propeller but unfortunately it seems
that (at least in the UK) that converting an existing engine to accept the
hydraulic governor isnt possible (as Skydrive wont supply the necessary
parts). It is possible to purchase a new engine with the governor shaft
fitted but this adds thousands of pounds to the cost (not including the cost
of the governor itself). Additionally the PFA would be unlikely to agree to
the increased propeller diameter (of the Whirlwind) at least for the
monowheel. The Trigear may be a different proposition.
My personal view at present is as follows:
The Airmaster is the best engineered solution (and the CS controller is a
brilliant bit of kit) however there is a question mark over the efficiency/
design of the Warp drive blades.
The Arplast has in the past been somewhat unreliable and in the early days
the VP electric motor was underpowered resulting in the need to reduce
engine power to change the propeller pitch. This issue may have been
resolved but Williams comments above are worrying. Can anyone comment on how
reliable/ suitable the Arplast propeller is in 2007?
The Woodcomp at present seems to be the best of the bunch coupled to the
Smart Avionics CS controller.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill & Sue" <Billandsue@billbell.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 11:50 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls
> <Billandsue@billbell.co.uk>
>
> The recent discussion on propellers has been really illuminating ?"but
> inevitably I now realise how little I know about propellers in general.
> I had in mind the Woodcomp for our trigear -but inevitably there now seem
> to be lots of other props each offering various advantages but no clear
> winner.
> In general terms, could anyone explain the benefits of a three-blade prop
> over a two blade, and whether these outweigh the weight penalty?
> And, while I?Tm seeking enlightenment, how do the benefits of electric CS
> props compare with the hydraulic variety?
>
> Bill
>
>
> Trigear 465
>
> P.S.
>
> I ordered something from Europa by phone one lunchtime last week and was
> opening the package over breakfast the following morning. Credit due for
> excellent service methinks!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116936#116936
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Woodcomp propeller controls |
Even though I manufacturer the Smart Avionics CS controller, I hope my opinion
is not completely biased and is of some use to this discussion.
I now have experience of both the Arplast PV50 and the Woodcomp SR3000/3 (feathering
version with scimitar blades). A long time ago I also used a Warp Drive
fixed pitch prop of which I remember little except it was much harsher than the
Arplast EcoProp which replaced it for a short while before I fitted the PV50.
I basically agree with William's comments that the Arplast has super blades from
the aerodynamic point of view but the hub+motor are not so good. Even after
years of problems, I believe the factory is still supplying the 6V motor as it's
the only way they can achieve sufficient torque to coarsen the prop under heavy
load. Incidently, I believe you can reduce the likelyhood of the motor frying
by connecting a 2ohm power resistor into the wire that supplies the power
to the pitch motor. The Arplast supplied control box used to be crap but it could
be better now (if you use a CSC-1/P you don't need their box anyway).
The only issue I had with the blades is that they have zero leading edge protection
and so getting chewed to bits if your airfield is stony. Even with leading
edge tape fitted, a large stone would take out big chunks of gelcoat and cause
de-lamination.
Once balanced, the Arplast is a very nice smooth prop.
The quality of the Woodcomp SR3000 is mostly very good. My blades have the carbon
finish and look fantastic. The leading edge protect is extremely good. The
hub looks adequate and the motor substantial. I don't have that many hours with
it yet to say how reliable it is. The wiring between the slip rings, limit
switches, motor, etc. looks a bit untidy but not really a problem. Again, the
factory electronics does not have a good record for reliability so a lot of people
are now ditching the Woodcomp stuff and fitting my controller instead.
Performance wise, it is similar to the PV50 except that the static thrust appears
somewhat greater and so provides excellent acceleration - I would think a good
prop for short strips. Again, once balanced, the prop is nice and smooth.
My aircraft is slow because it is a tri-gear with no spats and a small engine so
I can't really say how either prop performs speed wise.
To summarise, the PV50 and the SR3000 are both very good value and provide good
performance. In terms of overall quality of engineering, the Woodcomp wins.
Best of all, both of these props can be controlled by the Smart Avionics CSC controller!
This controller can also handle the feathering on the SR3000.
I have flown in aircraft fitted with the Airmaster prop and it works OK but I still
think the Warp Drive blades are terribly harsh and the Airmaster controller
is poor value for money and lacking in capability.
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117022#117022
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Subject: | Re: Woodcomp propeller controls |
A few other thoughts:
The Airmaster probably has the best engineered hub of the propellers discussed.
The Airmaster for some time has had a problem with introducing noise into the radio/intercom
when the pitch changes and I believe the factory were aware of that
and had a fix - perhaps people with Airmasters can confirm/deny this.
Smart Avionics has now sold more than 120 constant speed controllers and I am only
aware of 1 unit failing in service due to a component failure.
If you want a smooth prop - balance it!
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117025#117025
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Subject: | Re: What's up with the cost of 914? |
Hi Jos,
my Dynon is alive when speed is over 30 knots.
They will supply an updated program soon
and after it will be as Winter ASI eq 20 knots.
I got one good advise: IF you do fast taxiing - be prepared for flying
- radio
- transponder
- safety belts
- trim
- baro
- fuel
- engine
- cowlings
- doors
- yourself
and all the other things must be ready to fly.
Regards, Raimo
==========
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jos Okhuijsen" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?
Paul, Graham,
No, i won't certainly do the first flight myself. Ivan has kindly agreed
to do that and bring me on type.
As for taxi testing, i don't do fast testing, and only crawled on tarmac.
At least i know that the Winter ASI is working, it showed 20 knots with a
nice headwind. No reaction of the Dynon yet though.
Weight: No vacuum pump, no steam gauges saves a bit. The factory supplied
filler with epoxy was used, about 2 pounds, of which at least half was
sanded away. About a pound of heavier car filler was used for fine
scratches. The painter did a good job, there is still paint left from a
one gallon batch. Added a generator and a second battery, both small. The
interior however is heavier then i would like it to be. I remember Paul's
speckle paint interior, it was looking good and must be much lighter.
Well, i know an area where i can easely save 20 pounds: my owl pot belly
:-)
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
--
workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane
http://www.europaowners.org/kit600
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Subject: | Re: What's up with the cost of 914? |
Graham,
I guess I could have figured that out if I had engaged the brain before w
riting...what with two cranks and all- but is there a reduction or not, t
hat is more an issue I think....more to the point, has anybody done any e
valuation to use it in an Europa?
I know a new unproven engine is worse than being in sahara with no map, b
ut new developments do happen and sometimes they come our way.
Alex, kit 529
De:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
Para:europa-list@matronics.com
C=F3pia:
Data:Thu, 07 Jun 2007 01:05:02 +0100
Assunto:Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?
>
> Alexander
> there is a gearbox. It has two crankshafts which need to be geared
> together. It's like the old Junkers Jumo (??) engine of WW2 but
> horizontal instead of vertical
> Graham
>
> Alexander Kaarsberg wrote:
> > I have recently heard of Diesel Air Limited (dair.co.uk) that is said
to
> > weigh in at 93 kg- the site looks fine but has ''UKL on application''
> > under the heading price.
> >
> > Can anybody enlighten those in the dark about this beast?
> >
> > Two stroke flat four opposed-pistons, sounds as if could be simple
> > enough to work well- and noo gearbox...cruising at 2000 rpm, reminds
me
> > of my old BSA one pot 500cc, (B33) a put per lightpole in fourth gear
or so
> >
> >
> >
> > Alex, kit 529 in wraps waiting for a good engine, instruments, paint
and
> > the million other minor things like closing wings and fitting the oth
er
> > flap and aileron.
> >
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
>
> --
> Graham Singleton
>
> Tel: +441629820187
> Mob: +447739582005
>
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
>
> Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.
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Subject: | Re: Woodcomp propeller controls |
Hi! Carl
Someone the other day somewhere mentioned that Airmaster will be
offering an option with Sensenitch blades at Oshkosh ? That would be
good, however after 600 hours with the MT and facing almost the cost of
new for their 72 month overhaul and since my mind was made up by my
prang last May I have gone for the Woodcomp Scimitar SR 3000 with Mark
Burtons Smart Controller. May as well keep it cheap and be in a better
position at TBO time. BTW Checko is nearer than NZ ! I've been round
their factory on the first 6 Nations trip with William and David Joyce
....great product, great folks, great facility, state of the art
controller from Mark.
Bob H
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Pattinson
Sent: 07 June 2007 10:13
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls
<carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
As you may know I have been researching VP/ CS propellers but it is
always
difficult to come to a definitive conclusion without speaking to those
who
have actually used the various propellers.
Message 9
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|
Mark,
Your web-site mentions that the prop balancer is no longer available to EU
customers, does that mean that it could still be sent to N.America ?
Not in my budget at the moment, but something that I would like to own.
Dave A061 - Trigear, 912S with Woodcomp SR2000
"Mark Burton" <markb@ordern.com>
Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
06/07/2007 06:43 AM
Please respond to
europa-list@matronics.com
To
europa-list@matronics.com
cc
Subject
Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls
A few other thoughts:
The Airmaster probably has the best engineered hub of the propellers
discussed.
The Airmaster for some time has had a problem with introducing noise into
the radio/intercom when the pitch changes and I believe the factory were
aware of that and had a fix - perhaps people with Airmasters can
confirm/deny this.
Smart Avionics has now sold more than 120 constant speed controllers and I
am only aware of 1 unit failing in service due to a component failure.
If you want a smooth prop - balance it!
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117025#117025
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Subject: | Re: prop balancing |
Hi Dave,
I have stopped manufacturing the PB-1 balancer but I do hope to have a replacement
available before too long.
Cheers,
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117060#117060
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Subject: | Re: What's up with the cost of 914? |
<<...has anybody done any evaluation to use it in an Europa?>>
Yes (albeit on the 100kg prototype).
It's too heavy, unless you are prepared to compromise other aspects of
the overall EUropa performance profile. The quoted weight is bare engine
less its installation (radiators, water, mount etc etc).
But what would be the benefit of the trade-off of other factors? Unless
you just keen to run it on cheap and sustainable rape oil!
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: Alexander Kaarsberg
To: europa-list
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?
Graham,
I guess I could have figured that out if I had engaged the brain
before writing...what with two cranks and all- but is there a reduction
or not, that is more an issue I think....more to the point, has anybody
done any evaluation to use it in an Europa?
I know a new unproven engine is worse than being in sahara with no
map, but new developments do happen and sometimes they come our way.
Alex, kit 529
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
De: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
Para: europa-list@matronics.com
C=F3pia:
Data: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 01:05:02 +0100
Assunto: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?
>
> Alexander
> there is a gearbox. It has two crankshafts which need to be geared
> together. It's like the old Junkers Jumo (??) engine of WW2 but
> horizontal instead of vertical
> Graham
>
> Alexander Kaarsberg wrote:
> > I have recently heard of Diesel Air Limited (dair.co.uk) that is
said to
> > weigh in at 93 kg- the site looks fine but has ''UKL on
application''
> > under the heading price.
> >
> > Can anybody enlighten those in the dark about this beast?
> >
> > Two stroke flat four opposed-pistons, sounds as if could be simple
> > enough to work well- and noo gearbox...cruising at 2000 rpm,
reminds me
> > of my old BSA one pot 500cc, (B33) a put per lightpole in fourth
gear or so
> >
> >
> >
> > Alex, kit 529 in wraps waiting for a good engine, instruments,
paint and
> > the million other minor things like closing wings and fitting the
other
> > flap and aileron.
> >
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
>
> --
> Graham Singleton
>
> Tel: +441629820187
> Mob: +447739582005
>
=============
DIV> DIV> V> =============
=============
>
>
>
>
> Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.
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|
Subject: | builder test flying his own creation? |
Paul, I am not sure that i quite agree with you, that if at all possible th
e builder should refrain from
test flying his own Europa.
I realise that you have safety in mind, and quite rightly so. I cannot, how
ever, but ponder the number
of accidents having occurred to builders test flying their own Europa. Am i
wrong in assuming that
this number is very small =3F - again admitting that it ought to be nil.
The first time I took OY-ODA aloft, on a glorious sun-drenched afternoon, J
une 12 1999 my tailwheel
experience was unimpressive, and although having manhandled a Europa a coup
le of times I had never
been at the helm during take off or landing. That is, if you discount the t
ime during high-speed taxy-test
where I suddenly found myself about 50 feet above the runway. Without reall
y deliberating my options,
I throttled back and landed without drama. Mark you this was not successful
due to any aeronautical
excellence on my part, but thanks to the absolutely splendid flying charact
eristics of the Europa, and
this unintended take off convinced me that this part was nothing for which
to go into a stupor.
What I mean is that
1. All Europas having been cleared by their inspectors will, almost per def
inition, be
well behaving when airborne.
2. I seriously doubt that an eventual accompanying flying-instructor can pr
event a ground
loop if the builder has initiated one. The extra weight of the instruct
or only increases the
inertia.
3. The ongoing horror stories about the proneness of the mono to groundloop
are, I feel, somewhat
exaggerated, and, what is worse, they will unavoidably add to the like
ly pre-take off apprehension
of the builder. Which may increase his concentration, but as likely wi
ll deteriorate his flying perfor-
mance. And weeks or months of waiting for the availability of a suitab
le test pilot serves
only to increase the apprehension .
4. Finally, one should not ignore the significance of the marvellous momen
t where you yourself take
that blasted, expensive, beautiful toy, gestated, perhaps, in spite of
your wife's silent misgivings,
aloft for the very first time. And,afterwards, having parked and shut
down the engine, can lean back,
shut your eyes and enjoy one of the rare moments in life, where you a
re truly in awe.
Perhaps I am just a romantic.
Niels Kock
--
Jeg beskyttes af den gratis SPAMfighter til privatbrugere.
Den har indtil videre sparet mig for at f=E5 360 spam-mails.
Betalende brugere f=E5r ikke denne besked i deres e-mails.
Hent gratis SPAMfighter her: http://www.spamfighter.com/lda
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Subject: | Re: What's up with the cost of 914? |
Paul,
You forgot the passenger. You know the Europa doesn't like heavy people!
Karel Vranken. # 447 (only 37 hours).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 5:01 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?
> <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
>
> Andrew,
>
> I wish I could give you a "one liner" but I can't, although it has been
> said
> that Burt Rutan proposed a test. He said that if you were thinking of
> adding something to your aircraft then throw it in the air. If it doesn't
> stay there then it probably shouldn't be put on your aircraft.
>
> Seriously though, its a more of a mind set thing. You win the battle by
> shaving off grams, not kilograms. Put a 100 grams here, a 100 grams
> there,
> and next thing you have added a kilo or two.
>
> The lightest Europa built was around 730 pounds I believe which was an
> amazing achievement. I suspect that the builder just scrutinized
> absolutely
> every thing. The things that add weight are:
>
> - Modifications
> - Modifications
> - Modifications
> - Filler
> - Primer
> - Paint
> - Upholstery
> - Constant speed propellers
> - Instrumentation
> - High redundancy electrical systems.
>
> Some trade offs you choose to have, for example a high redundancy
> electrical
> system (I have one) but, once you talk yourself into one thing its a
> slippery slope.
>
> If you want to get specific help, see if you can get a listing of the
> Europa
> weights and contact the builders who have built light aircraft. The
> lightest 914 mono I could find was 790 pounds.... I sure wish mine was
> that
> light.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Woodcomp propeller controls |
>>> The Airmaster for some time has had a problem with introducing noise
into the radio/intercom when the pitch changes and I believe the factory
were aware of that and had a fix - perhaps people with Airmasters can
confirm/deny this.
Yes, that was fixed with a change to the controller design.
BTW.. A certain Europa that lives in my hangar looks really great with
its white Sensenich blades ... and for more information you're going to
have to go to Oshkosh!
Tony
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Subject: | Re: What's up with the cost of 914? |
Alex
far as I know the prop runs at crankshaft speed although I guess it
could be geared. The engine has flown on an airship I believe. It first
flew on a Luscombe Silvair but the aircraft was damaged on its first
landing I think.
Graham
Alexander Kaarsberg wrote:
> Graham,
>
> I guess I could have figured that out if I had engaged the brain before
> writing...what with two cranks and all-
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Subject: | Re: Woodcomp propeller controls |
If anyone needs a balance within reasonable distance of Derbyshire give
me a shout, I have Mark's balancer.
Graham
Mark Burton wrote:
> If you want a smooth prop - balance it!
>
> Mark
>
> --
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
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Subject: | Re: Woodcomp propeller controls |
Hi Tony
Is that your own Europa, and when will you fly it, or do you still have
the Airmaster one?
Graham
btw we hope to move in in a couple of weeks, although it might be a bit
like camping indoors!
Tony Krzyzewski wrote:
> BTW.. A certain Europa that lives in my hangar looks really great with
> its white Sensenich blades ... and for more information you're going to
> have to go to Oshkosh!
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
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Subject: | Re: builder test flying his own creation? |
Niels
good to see you here! I suspect that some monos ARE prone to ground loop
and some aren't. Similarly some pilots are and some aren't. Two
variables equals four times the risk, if you see what I mean.
It is important to have full 13 degrees of up elevator to give enough
down force with the tail wheel on the ground. that will give an AoA on
the elevator of about 3 degrees? At 20 knots there isn't much force.
It's also important that the pilot recognises the incipient yaw as soon
as it starts because as soon as rotation starts momentum builds up and
there isn't enough rudder/tailwheel resistance to stop it. Add the
confusing effects from the outriggers rocking side to side and the
pilots gyro will start to topple ?:-)
In the USA the number of accidents to builders first flighting is
depressingly high, (not just Europas) we spend all our waking hours
thinking and doing the build and tend to neglect our flying skills. Then
we try and fly an aircraft with unknown characteristics which might not
even be true to type.
Hope to see you over here one day?
Graham
Niels Kock wrote:
> Paul, I am not sure that i quite agree with you, that if at all possible
> the builder should refrain from
> test flying his own Europa.
I cannot, however, but ponder the number
> of accidents having occurred to builders test flying their own Europa.
> Am i wrong in assuming that
> this number is very small ?
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
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Subject: | Re: What's up with the cost of 914? |
I envy you your super toys! (and your skills)
Graham
Paul McAllister wrote:
>
> Graham,
>
> Essential the GRT EFIS has all of the functionality of a data logger. I am
> planning on doing some data collection to nail the Vx and Vy speeds. If
> this works the way I think it does I reckon I can collect enough data in one
> flight to figure it out.
>
> One cool thing you can do is to do collect data during a flight, run it
> though a conversion program to strip out the GPS lat/lon data and feed it
> into Google Earth. When you play it Google Earth generates an image as
> viewed from the cockpit.... really cool stuff.
>
> Paul
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Subject: | Re: What's up with the cost of 914? |
Paul
That was Jon Tye's I think. He did exactly what you said. Incidentally
he was the launch customer, he built kit no 1,( a Classic of course.)
His instrument panel weighed around 17 lbs. Most come in around 40? He
did use a panel mounted handheld radio btw.
Next lightest was Trevor Jackson's (kit no 3) which now lives near
Vienna with Ernst Keppert and also had a handheld radio.
Both flew beautifully
There's another very light one but I don't know who it is.
Graham
Paul McAllister wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>
> I wish I could give you a "one liner" but I can't,
>
> The lightest Europa built was around 730 pounds I believe which was an
> amazing achievement. I suspect that the builder just scrutinized absolutely
> every thing.
> Paul
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Woodcomp propeller controls |
It's the Airmaster one. She's looking a bit tired inside but has a big
smile on her face with her fancy new propeller.
I have just ripped the guts out of my instrument panel on mine to follow
in Paul's footsteps and have installed a Dynon Flightdek 180. The drop
in weight from the removal of all the other instruments and associated
wiring was quite dramatic! My problem is lack of time due to workload
and the house build.
The house pad has been cut and retaining walls established and we are
now just waiting on the building consent before construction starts. In
the meantime I've been putting in the drainpipes to feed the two water
tanks while Jackie is putting plants in where she can.
You'll be pleased to be moving in at last and you'll be able to spend
all summer clearing up the remains of the building site!!
Tony
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: Friday, 8 June 2007 11:06 a.m.
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Hi Tony
Is that your own Europa, and when will you fly it, or do you still have
the Airmaster one?
Graham
btw we hope to move in in a couple of weeks, although it might be a bit
like camping indoors!
Tony Krzyzewski wrote:
> BTW.. A certain Europa that lives in my hangar looks really great with
> its white Sensenich blades ... and for more information you're going
to
> have to go to Oshkosh!
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 22
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Subject: | What's up with the cost of 914? |
Why not? Can you explain what your misgivings were and what happened in the
end?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 22:10
Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?
<paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Jos,
Please read my article on test flying. Honestly mate, its a really, really
bad idea to test fly your own aircraft, try and avoid it if at all possible.
I spent months trying to find someone to test fly mine and I only did it
myself as a last resort. To this day I still would have preferred not to.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Jos
Paul is right, don't do any serious taxi testing, unless you still have
a couple of feet of ice on your lake. I guess it's melted by now.
Certainly not on tarmac.
Are you going to make Ivan an offer? (btw I don't think he monitors this
list.) Unless you have a convenient into wind grass runway I don't
recommend you do your own first flight. Otherwise wait till the lake
freezes again and do it on snow.
Message 23
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I have been following the engine discussion with interest.
Yesterday I was talking to one of my clients in Quito msl 9200 and gets hot.
He has fitted winglets to his 757s. they give him 15 more pax so he can
load 150 instead of 135 and 5% less fuel burn.
I wonder if anyone has investigated this for the europa.
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of karelvranken
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 15:56
Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?
Paul,
You forgot the passenger. You know the Europa doesn't like heavy people!
Karel Vranken. # 447 (only 37 hours).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 5:01 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914?
> <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
>
> Andrew,
>
> I wish I could give you a "one liner" but I can't, although it has been
> said
> that Burt Rutan proposed a test. He said that if you were thinking of
> adding something to your aircraft then throw it in the air. If it doesn't
> stay there then it probably shouldn't be put on your aircraft.
>
> Seriously though, its a more of a mind set thing. You win the battle by
> shaving off grams, not kilograms. Put a 100 grams here, a 100 grams
> there,
> and next thing you have added a kilo or two.
>
> The lightest Europa built was around 730 pounds I believe which was an
> amazing achievement. I suspect that the builder just scrutinized
> absolutely
> every thing. The things that add weight are:
>
> - Modifications
> - Modifications
> - Modifications
> - Filler
> - Primer
> - Paint
> - Upholstery
> - Constant speed propellers
> - Instrumentation
> - High redundancy electrical systems.
>
> Some trade offs you choose to have, for example a high redundancy
> electrical
> system (I have one) but, once you talk yourself into one thing its a
> slippery slope.
>
> If you want to get specific help, see if you can get a listing of the
> Europa
> weights and contact the builders who have built light aircraft. The
> lightest 914 mono I could find was 790 pounds.... I sure wish mine was
> that
> light.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
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Subject: | Test flying - "Was What's up with the cost of 914?" |
William, Neils
I don't particularly want to turn this in to who is wrong and who is
right.... there isn't a definitive answer.
Yes you can successfully test fly your own aircraft, many people have. Its
all about the preparation. Assuming that the owner is well prepared there
is still one key difference between the owner and a test pilot.
The test pilot does not have any emotional attachment to the aircraft and if
things don't go well he is likely to make different piloting decisions.
So essentially if nothing goes wrong, and for a well prepared aircraft that
would be 99% of the time, then it can be a rewarding experience, as it was
in my case.
The article I was refering to is on my WEB site, but here is the direct
link.
http://europa363.versadev.com/Test_Flying.html
or you can get to it from the main page:
http://europa363.versadev.com/
Regards, Paul
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Subject: | Re: Woodcomp propeller controls |
Hi Mark
>I have flown in aircraft fitted with the Airmaster prop and it works OK
but I still think the Warp Drive blades are terribly harsh and the
Airmaster controller is poor value for money and lacking in capability.<
I agree the warp drive blades are not ideal. In terms of the controller
what lack of capability are you talking about? I find the controller
perfect both in installation and use. I was put off by the Woodcomp
initially because of the gear drive in the hub. This has probably been
updated now. Its control boxes were too big to retrofit to my panel
whereas the Airmaster was small and neat and provides all the control I
want. I particularly like being able to select between T/O, Climb and
Cruise settings without taking my attention from the world outside.
Having started off with the NSI VP prop I was aware that VP without CS
causes a significant increase in workload.
I agree that the Airmaster is expensive but I believe they got most of
their development done before selling to the public. This was not the
case with the Woodcomp. Hopefully it is now at a stage where development
is just refining the product. Assuming this is the case then it is very
good value for money. When I bought my Airmaster I had been through a
lot of hassle with NSI and wanted a prop that did everything I wanted.
The Airmaster was the only one at the time that could provide that. As
in the choice of engines what is important is getting the right product.
Initial purchase price is only one part of the equation.
Nigel Charles
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