---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/07/07: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:19 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Brian Davies) 2. 01:02 AM - William and Paul (Laura Farmer) 3. 02:16 AM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Carl Pattinson) 4. 03:00 AM - Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Mark Burton) 5. 03:42 AM - Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Mark Burton) 6. 04:03 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Raimo Toivio) 7. 04:29 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Alexander Kaarsberg) 8. 06:31 AM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (R.C.Harrison) 9. 06:33 AM - prop balancing (Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com) 10. 07:15 AM - Re: prop balancing (Mark Burton) 11. 11:12 AM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 12. 12:54 PM - builder test flying his own creation? (Niels Kock) 13. 01:51 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (karelvranken) 14. 02:06 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Tony Krzyzewski) 15. 02:19 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Graham Singleton) 16. 04:01 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Graham Singleton) 17. 04:04 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Graham Singleton) 18. 04:22 PM - Re: builder test flying his own creation? (Graham Singleton) 19. 04:25 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Graham Singleton) 20. 04:34 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (Graham Singleton) 21. 04:39 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Tony Krzyzewski) 22. 06:24 PM - Re: What's up with the cost of 914? (William Daniell) 23. 06:36 PM - winglets (William Daniell) 24. 07:39 PM - Test flying - "Was What's up with the cost of 914?" (Paul McAllister) 25. 11:19 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (nigel charles) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:45 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? If you are a member of the Europa Club, you can look in the members only area and follow the link to the membership list. This includes the weight of each completed aircraft, together with a basic spec for the aircraft. Brian Davies membership sec. Europa Club -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: 07 June 2007 04:01 Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? --> Andrew, I wish I could give you a "one liner" but I can't, although it has been said that Burt Rutan proposed a test. He said that if you were thinking of adding something to your aircraft then throw it in the air. If it doesn't stay there then it probably shouldn't be put on your aircraft. Seriously though, its a more of a mind set thing. You win the battle by shaving off grams, not kilograms. Put a 100 grams here, a 100 grams there, and next thing you have added a kilo or two. The lightest Europa built was around 730 pounds I believe which was an amazing achievement. I suspect that the builder just scrutinized absolutely every thing. The things that add weight are: - Modifications - Modifications - Modifications - Filler - Primer - Paint - Upholstery - Constant speed propellers - Instrumentation - High redundancy electrical systems. Some trade offs you choose to have, for example a high redundancy electrical system (I have one) but, once you talk yourself into one thing its a slippery slope. If you want to get specific help, see if you can get a listing of the Europa weights and contact the builders who have built light aircraft. The lightest 914 mono I could find was 790 pounds.... I sure wish mine was that light. Paul 14:38 14:38 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:02:37 AM PST US From: "Laura Farmer" Subject: Europa-List: William and Paul Hello again, Many Thanks for all the personal messages of condolence we have received. When we get time we hope to reply to them, but as you can imagine, there is so much to do at this time. Funeral arrangements for Paul as follows for anyone who wishes to attend : Friday June 15th, Funeral service at St James' Church, Poplar Road, Tredegar, Blaenau Gwent @ 10.15 a.m. Cremation @ Thornhill Cemetary, Thornhill, Cardiff @ 12.00, followed by food and refreshments @ Virginia Park Golf Club, Caerphilly. These venues were chosen due to the large numbers anticipated - Paul had made a lot of friends in his fairly short life. Family flowers only, but donations in lieu to Noah's Ark Children's hospice c/o Caerphilly Funeral Service tel 02920 862100. I hope to get some maps sorted out, if anyone would like any directions etc please email me. Regards, Laura Farmer ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:48 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls As you may know I have been researching VP/ CS propellers but it is always difficult to come to a definitive conclusion without speaking to those who have actually used the various propellers. William Mills was kind enough to share his experience with me before his tragic departure from this life. "William, though I never had the pleasure of meeting you in person, your departure leaves a hole in my life and reminds me of the bond that we who take to the skies share. You are and will be sadly missed." William had used both an Arplast and a Woodcomp propeller so was able to give a useful comparison. This is what he said Carl, I had an Arplast PV50 as my first VP prop. I am afraid to say the blades are the only good aspect of the prop. The hub mechanism is very poor which resulted in different pitch angles between the blades at different settings, which cause vibration. The electronic control was very unreliable and failed in fully coarse, the motor is 6 volts operated by 12 volts to get enough power, so they fail often and the after sales service is very poor. That is my experience. I now have a Woodcomp SR 3000/3 controlled by a Smart Avionics Constant Speed Controller, which I find is an excellent combination. It is slightly cheaper than the Arplast and half the price of the Airmaster. It also comes fully assembled complete with a spinner, fully balanced and ready to bolt on. May I suggest you take a good look at that before you make up your mind. Best wishes, William AND I had a 912 with Warp Drive, then replaced it with an Arplast PV50, then threw away their control and fitted a Smart Avionics CSC. The PV50 improved my take-off performance a great deal. When I had done about 800 hours, I fitted a 912s and a Woodcomp 2000/3 with a Smart Avionics CSC. I have now changed the 2000 for their latest SR 3000/3 with reverse thrust and I find this an excellent combination. Best wishes, William I was very interested in the Whirlwind propeller but unfortunately it seems that (at least in the UK) that converting an existing engine to accept the hydraulic governor isnt possible (as Skydrive wont supply the necessary parts). It is possible to purchase a new engine with the governor shaft fitted but this adds thousands of pounds to the cost (not including the cost of the governor itself). Additionally the PFA would be unlikely to agree to the increased propeller diameter (of the Whirlwind) at least for the monowheel. The Trigear may be a different proposition. My personal view at present is as follows: The Airmaster is the best engineered solution (and the CS controller is a brilliant bit of kit) however there is a question mark over the efficiency/ design of the Warp drive blades. The Arplast has in the past been somewhat unreliable and in the early days the VP electric motor was underpowered resulting in the need to reduce engine power to change the propeller pitch. This issue may have been resolved but Williams comments above are worrying. Can anyone comment on how reliable/ suitable the Arplast propeller is in 2007? The Woodcomp at present seems to be the best of the bunch coupled to the Smart Avionics CS controller. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill & Sue" Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 11:50 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls > > > The recent discussion on propellers has been really illuminating ?"but > inevitably I now realise how little I know about propellers in general. > I had in mind the Woodcomp for our trigear -but inevitably there now seem > to be lots of other props each offering various advantages but no clear > winner. > In general terms, could anyone explain the benefits of a three-blade prop > over a two blade, and whether these outweigh the weight penalty? > And, while I?Tm seeking enlightenment, how do the benefits of electric CS > props compare with the hydraulic variety? > > Bill > > > Trigear 465 > > P.S. > > I ordered something from Europa by phone one lunchtime last week and was > opening the package over breakfast the following morning. Credit due for > excellent service methinks! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116936#116936 > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:00:07 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls From: "Mark Burton" Even though I manufacturer the Smart Avionics CS controller, I hope my opinion is not completely biased and is of some use to this discussion. I now have experience of both the Arplast PV50 and the Woodcomp SR3000/3 (feathering version with scimitar blades). A long time ago I also used a Warp Drive fixed pitch prop of which I remember little except it was much harsher than the Arplast EcoProp which replaced it for a short while before I fitted the PV50. I basically agree with William's comments that the Arplast has super blades from the aerodynamic point of view but the hub+motor are not so good. Even after years of problems, I believe the factory is still supplying the 6V motor as it's the only way they can achieve sufficient torque to coarsen the prop under heavy load. Incidently, I believe you can reduce the likelyhood of the motor frying by connecting a 2ohm power resistor into the wire that supplies the power to the pitch motor. The Arplast supplied control box used to be crap but it could be better now (if you use a CSC-1/P you don't need their box anyway). The only issue I had with the blades is that they have zero leading edge protection and so getting chewed to bits if your airfield is stony. Even with leading edge tape fitted, a large stone would take out big chunks of gelcoat and cause de-lamination. Once balanced, the Arplast is a very nice smooth prop. The quality of the Woodcomp SR3000 is mostly very good. My blades have the carbon finish and look fantastic. The leading edge protect is extremely good. The hub looks adequate and the motor substantial. I don't have that many hours with it yet to say how reliable it is. The wiring between the slip rings, limit switches, motor, etc. looks a bit untidy but not really a problem. Again, the factory electronics does not have a good record for reliability so a lot of people are now ditching the Woodcomp stuff and fitting my controller instead. Performance wise, it is similar to the PV50 except that the static thrust appears somewhat greater and so provides excellent acceleration - I would think a good prop for short strips. Again, once balanced, the prop is nice and smooth. My aircraft is slow because it is a tri-gear with no spats and a small engine so I can't really say how either prop performs speed wise. To summarise, the PV50 and the SR3000 are both very good value and provide good performance. In terms of overall quality of engineering, the Woodcomp wins. Best of all, both of these props can be controlled by the Smart Avionics CSC controller! This controller can also handle the feathering on the SR3000. I have flown in aircraft fitted with the Airmaster prop and it works OK but I still think the Warp Drive blades are terribly harsh and the Airmaster controller is poor value for money and lacking in capability. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117022#117022 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:42:09 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls From: "Mark Burton" A few other thoughts: The Airmaster probably has the best engineered hub of the propellers discussed. The Airmaster for some time has had a problem with introducing noise into the radio/intercom when the pitch changes and I believe the factory were aware of that and had a fix - perhaps people with Airmasters can confirm/deny this. Smart Avionics has now sold more than 120 constant speed controllers and I am only aware of 1 unit failing in service due to a component failure. If you want a smooth prop - balance it! Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117025#117025 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:17 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Hi Jos, my Dynon is alive when speed is over 30 knots. They will supply an updated program soon and after it will be as Winter ASI eq 20 knots. I got one good advise: IF you do fast taxiing - be prepared for flying - radio - transponder - safety belts - trim - baro - fuel - engine - cowlings - doors - yourself and all the other things must be ready to fly. Regards, Raimo ========== Raimo M W Toivio OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded) 37500 Lempaala Finland tel + 358 3 3753 777 fax + 358 3 3753 100 gsm + 358 40 590 1450 raimo.toivio@rwm.fi www.rwm.fi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 9:18 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Paul, Graham, No, i won't certainly do the first flight myself. Ivan has kindly agreed to do that and bring me on type. As for taxi testing, i don't do fast testing, and only crawled on tarmac. At least i know that the Winter ASI is working, it showed 20 knots with a nice headwind. No reaction of the Dynon yet though. Weight: No vacuum pump, no steam gauges saves a bit. The factory supplied filler with epoxy was used, about 2 pounds, of which at least half was sanded away. About a pound of heavier car filler was used for fine scratches. The painter did a good job, there is still paint left from a one gallon batch. Added a generator and a second battery, both small. The interior however is heavier then i would like it to be. I remember Paul's speckle paint interior, it was looking good and must be much lighter. Well, i know an area where i can easely save 20 pounds: my owl pot belly :-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen -- workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane http://www.europaowners.org/kit600 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:13 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? From: "Alexander Kaarsberg" Graham, I guess I could have figured that out if I had engaged the brain before w riting...what with two cranks and all- but is there a reduction or not, t hat is more an issue I think....more to the point, has anybody done any e valuation to use it in an Europa? I know a new unproven engine is worse than being in sahara with no map, b ut new developments do happen and sometimes they come our way. Alex, kit 529 De:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com Para:europa-list@matronics.com C=F3pia: Data:Thu, 07 Jun 2007 01:05:02 +0100 Assunto:Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? > > Alexander > there is a gearbox. It has two crankshafts which need to be geared > together. It's like the old Junkers Jumo (??) engine of WW2 but > horizontal instead of vertical > Graham > > Alexander Kaarsberg wrote: > > I have recently heard of Diesel Air Limited (dair.co.uk) that is said to > > weigh in at 93 kg- the site looks fine but has ''UKL on application'' > > under the heading price. > > > > Can anybody enlighten those in the dark about this beast? > > > > Two stroke flat four opposed-pistons, sounds as if could be simple > > enough to work well- and noo gearbox...cruising at 2000 rpm, reminds me > > of my old BSA one pot 500cc, (B33) a put per lightpole in fourth gear or so > > > > > > > > Alex, kit 529 in wraps waiting for a good engine, instruments, paint and > > the million other minor things like closing wings and fitting the oth er > > flap and aileron. > > > > * > > > > > > * > > -- > Graham Singleton > > Tel: +441629820187 > Mob: +447739582005 > =========== =========== =========== > > > > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 06/06/2007 / Vers=E3o: 5. 1.00/5047 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:22 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls Hi! Carl Someone the other day somewhere mentioned that Airmaster will be offering an option with Sensenitch blades at Oshkosh ? That would be good, however after 600 hours with the MT and facing almost the cost of new for their 72 month overhaul and since my mind was made up by my prang last May I have gone for the Woodcomp Scimitar SR 3000 with Mark Burtons Smart Controller. May as well keep it cheap and be in a better position at TBO time. BTW Checko is nearer than NZ ! I've been round their factory on the first 6 Nations trip with William and David Joyce ....great product, great folks, great facility, state of the art controller from Mark. Bob H -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson Sent: 07 June 2007 10:13 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls As you may know I have been researching VP/ CS propellers but it is always difficult to come to a definitive conclusion without speaking to those who have actually used the various propellers. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:46 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: prop balancing From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com Mark, Your web-site mentions that the prop balancer is no longer available to EU customers, does that mean that it could still be sent to N.America ? Not in my budget at the moment, but something that I would like to own. Dave A061 - Trigear, 912S with Woodcomp SR2000 "Mark Burton" Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com 06/07/2007 06:43 AM Please respond to europa-list@matronics.com To europa-list@matronics.com cc Subject Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls A few other thoughts: The Airmaster probably has the best engineered hub of the propellers discussed. The Airmaster for some time has had a problem with introducing noise into the radio/intercom when the pitch changes and I believe the factory were aware of that and had a fix - perhaps people with Airmasters can confirm/deny this. Smart Avionics has now sold more than 120 constant speed controllers and I am only aware of 1 unit failing in service due to a component failure. If you want a smooth prop - balance it! Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117025#117025 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:15:58 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: prop balancing From: "Mark Burton" Hi Dave, I have stopped manufacturing the PB-1 balancer but I do hope to have a replacement available before too long. Cheers, Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117060#117060 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:14 AM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? <<...has anybody done any evaluation to use it in an Europa?>> Yes (albeit on the 100kg prototype). It's too heavy, unless you are prepared to compromise other aspects of the overall EUropa performance profile. The quoted weight is bare engine less its installation (radiators, water, mount etc etc). But what would be the benefit of the trade-off of other factors? Unless you just keen to run it on cheap and sustainable rape oil! Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: Alexander Kaarsberg To: europa-list Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 12:26 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Graham, I guess I could have figured that out if I had engaged the brain before writing...what with two cranks and all- but is there a reduction or not, that is more an issue I think....more to the point, has anybody done any evaluation to use it in an Europa? I know a new unproven engine is worse than being in sahara with no map, but new developments do happen and sometimes they come our way. Alex, kit 529 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- De: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com Para: europa-list@matronics.com C=F3pia: Data: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 01:05:02 +0100 Assunto: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? > > Alexander > there is a gearbox. It has two crankshafts which need to be geared > together. It's like the old Junkers Jumo (??) engine of WW2 but > horizontal instead of vertical > Graham > > Alexander Kaarsberg wrote: > > I have recently heard of Diesel Air Limited (dair.co.uk) that is said to > > weigh in at 93 kg- the site looks fine but has ''UKL on application'' > > under the heading price. > > > > Can anybody enlighten those in the dark about this beast? > > > > Two stroke flat four opposed-pistons, sounds as if could be simple > > enough to work well- and noo gearbox...cruising at 2000 rpm, reminds me > > of my old BSA one pot 500cc, (B33) a put per lightpole in fourth gear or so > > > > > > > > Alex, kit 529 in wraps waiting for a good engine, instruments, paint and > > the million other minor things like closing wings and fitting the other > > flap and aileron. > > > > * > > > > > > * > > -- > Graham Singleton > > Tel: +441629820187 > Mob: +447739582005 > ============= DIV> DIV> V> ============= ============= > > > > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 06/06/2007 / Vers=E3o: 5.1.00/5047 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:21 PM PST US From: "Niels Kock" Subject: Europa-List: builder test flying his own creation? Paul, I am not sure that i quite agree with you, that if at all possible th e builder should refrain from test flying his own Europa. I realise that you have safety in mind, and quite rightly so. I cannot, how ever, but ponder the number of accidents having occurred to builders test flying their own Europa. Am i wrong in assuming that this number is very small =3F - again admitting that it ought to be nil. The first time I took OY-ODA aloft, on a glorious sun-drenched afternoon, J une 12 1999 my tailwheel experience was unimpressive, and although having manhandled a Europa a coup le of times I had never been at the helm during take off or landing. That is, if you discount the t ime during high-speed taxy-test where I suddenly found myself about 50 feet above the runway. Without reall y deliberating my options, I throttled back and landed without drama. Mark you this was not successful due to any aeronautical excellence on my part, but thanks to the absolutely splendid flying charact eristics of the Europa, and this unintended take off convinced me that this part was nothing for which to go into a stupor. What I mean is that 1. All Europas having been cleared by their inspectors will, almost per def inition, be well behaving when airborne. 2. I seriously doubt that an eventual accompanying flying-instructor can pr event a ground loop if the builder has initiated one. The extra weight of the instruct or only increases the inertia. 3. The ongoing horror stories about the proneness of the mono to groundloop are, I feel, somewhat exaggerated, and, what is worse, they will unavoidably add to the like ly pre-take off apprehension of the builder. Which may increase his concentration, but as likely wi ll deteriorate his flying perfor- mance. And weeks or months of waiting for the availability of a suitab le test pilot serves only to increase the apprehension . 4. Finally, one should not ignore the significance of the marvellous momen t where you yourself take that blasted, expensive, beautiful toy, gestated, perhaps, in spite of your wife's silent misgivings, aloft for the very first time. And,afterwards, having parked and shut down the engine, can lean back, shut your eyes and enjoy one of the rare moments in life, where you a re truly in awe. Perhaps I am just a romantic. Niels Kock -- Jeg beskyttes af den gratis SPAMfighter til privatbrugere. Den har indtil videre sparet mig for at f=E5 360 spam-mails. Betalende brugere f=E5r ikke denne besked i deres e-mails. Hent gratis SPAMfighter her: http://www.spamfighter.com/lda ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:38 PM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Paul, You forgot the passenger. You know the Europa doesn't like heavy people! Karel Vranken. # 447 (only 37 hours). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 5:01 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? > > > Andrew, > > I wish I could give you a "one liner" but I can't, although it has been > said > that Burt Rutan proposed a test. He said that if you were thinking of > adding something to your aircraft then throw it in the air. If it doesn't > stay there then it probably shouldn't be put on your aircraft. > > Seriously though, its a more of a mind set thing. You win the battle by > shaving off grams, not kilograms. Put a 100 grams here, a 100 grams > there, > and next thing you have added a kilo or two. > > The lightest Europa built was around 730 pounds I believe which was an > amazing achievement. I suspect that the builder just scrutinized > absolutely > every thing. The things that add weight are: > > - Modifications > - Modifications > - Modifications > - Filler > - Primer > - Paint > - Upholstery > - Constant speed propellers > - Instrumentation > - High redundancy electrical systems. > > Some trade offs you choose to have, for example a high redundancy > electrical > system (I have one) but, once you talk yourself into one thing its a > slippery slope. > > If you want to get specific help, see if you can get a listing of the > Europa > weights and contact the builders who have built light aircraft. The > lightest 914 mono I could find was 790 pounds.... I sure wish mine was > that > light. > > Paul > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:46 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls From: "Tony Krzyzewski" >>> The Airmaster for some time has had a problem with introducing noise into the radio/intercom when the pitch changes and I believe the factory were aware of that and had a fix - perhaps people with Airmasters can confirm/deny this. Yes, that was fixed with a change to the controller design. BTW.. A certain Europa that lives in my hangar looks really great with its white Sensenich blades ... and for more information you're going to have to go to Oshkosh! Tony ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:02 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Alex far as I know the prop runs at crankshaft speed although I guess it could be geared. The engine has flown on an airship I believe. It first flew on a Luscombe Silvair but the aircraft was damaged on its first landing I think. Graham Alexander Kaarsberg wrote: > Graham, > > I guess I could have figured that out if I had engaged the brain before > writing...what with two cranks and all- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:25 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls If anyone needs a balance within reasonable distance of Derbyshire give me a shout, I have Mark's balancer. Graham Mark Burton wrote: > If you want a smooth prop - balance it! > > Mark > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:37 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls Hi Tony Is that your own Europa, and when will you fly it, or do you still have the Airmaster one? Graham btw we hope to move in in a couple of weeks, although it might be a bit like camping indoors! Tony Krzyzewski wrote: > BTW.. A certain Europa that lives in my hangar looks really great with > its white Sensenich blades ... and for more information you're going to > have to go to Oshkosh! > > Tony > > > > > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:25 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: builder test flying his own creation? Niels good to see you here! I suspect that some monos ARE prone to ground loop and some aren't. Similarly some pilots are and some aren't. Two variables equals four times the risk, if you see what I mean. It is important to have full 13 degrees of up elevator to give enough down force with the tail wheel on the ground. that will give an AoA on the elevator of about 3 degrees? At 20 knots there isn't much force. It's also important that the pilot recognises the incipient yaw as soon as it starts because as soon as rotation starts momentum builds up and there isn't enough rudder/tailwheel resistance to stop it. Add the confusing effects from the outriggers rocking side to side and the pilots gyro will start to topple ?:-) In the USA the number of accidents to builders first flighting is depressingly high, (not just Europas) we spend all our waking hours thinking and doing the build and tend to neglect our flying skills. Then we try and fly an aircraft with unknown characteristics which might not even be true to type. Hope to see you over here one day? Graham Niels Kock wrote: > Paul, I am not sure that i quite agree with you, that if at all possible > the builder should refrain from > test flying his own Europa. I cannot, however, but ponder the number > of accidents having occurred to builders test flying their own Europa. > Am i wrong in assuming that > this number is very small ? -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:14 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? I envy you your super toys! (and your skills) Graham Paul McAllister wrote: > > Graham, > > Essential the GRT EFIS has all of the functionality of a data logger. I am > planning on doing some data collection to nail the Vx and Vy speeds. If > this works the way I think it does I reckon I can collect enough data in one > flight to figure it out. > > One cool thing you can do is to do collect data during a flight, run it > though a conversion program to strip out the GPS lat/lon data and feed it > into Google Earth. When you play it Google Earth generates an image as > viewed from the cockpit.... really cool stuff. > > Paul ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:13 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Paul That was Jon Tye's I think. He did exactly what you said. Incidentally he was the launch customer, he built kit no 1,( a Classic of course.) His instrument panel weighed around 17 lbs. Most come in around 40? He did use a panel mounted handheld radio btw. Next lightest was Trevor Jackson's (kit no 3) which now lives near Vienna with Ernst Keppert and also had a handheld radio. Both flew beautifully There's another very light one but I don't know who it is. Graham Paul McAllister wrote: > > Andrew, > > I wish I could give you a "one liner" but I can't, > > The lightest Europa built was around 730 pounds I believe which was an > amazing achievement. I suspect that the builder just scrutinized absolutely > every thing. > Paul ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:37 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls From: "Tony Krzyzewski" It's the Airmaster one. She's looking a bit tired inside but has a big smile on her face with her fancy new propeller. I have just ripped the guts out of my instrument panel on mine to follow in Paul's footsteps and have installed a Dynon Flightdek 180. The drop in weight from the removal of all the other instruments and associated wiring was quite dramatic! My problem is lack of time due to workload and the house build. The house pad has been cut and retaining walls established and we are now just waiting on the building consent before construction starts. In the meantime I've been putting in the drainpipes to feed the two water tanks while Jackie is putting plants in where she can. You'll be pleased to be moving in at last and you'll be able to spend all summer clearing up the remains of the building site!! Tony -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: Friday, 8 June 2007 11:06 a.m. Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls Hi Tony Is that your own Europa, and when will you fly it, or do you still have the Airmaster one? Graham btw we hope to move in in a couple of weeks, although it might be a bit like camping indoors! Tony Krzyzewski wrote: > BTW.. A certain Europa that lives in my hangar looks really great with > its white Sensenich blades ... and for more information you're going to > have to go to Oshkosh! > > Tony > > > > > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:24:54 PM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Why not? Can you explain what your misgivings were and what happened in the end? -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 22:10 Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Jos, Please read my article on test flying. Honestly mate, its a really, really bad idea to test fly your own aircraft, try and avoid it if at all possible. I spent months trying to find someone to test fly mine and I only did it myself as a last resort. To this day I still would have preferred not to. Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 6:48 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Jos Paul is right, don't do any serious taxi testing, unless you still have a couple of feet of ice on your lake. I guess it's melted by now. Certainly not on tarmac. Are you going to make Ivan an offer? (btw I don't think he monitors this list.) Unless you have a convenient into wind grass runway I don't recommend you do your own first flight. Otherwise wait till the lake freezes again and do it on snow. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:20 PM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: Europa-List: winglets I have been following the engine discussion with interest. Yesterday I was talking to one of my clients in Quito msl 9200 and gets hot. He has fitted winglets to his 757s. they give him 15 more pax so he can load 150 instead of 135 and 5% less fuel burn. I wonder if anyone has investigated this for the europa. Will -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of karelvranken Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 15:56 Subject: Re: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? Paul, You forgot the passenger. You know the Europa doesn't like heavy people! Karel Vranken. # 447 (only 37 hours). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 5:01 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: What's up with the cost of 914? > > > Andrew, > > I wish I could give you a "one liner" but I can't, although it has been > said > that Burt Rutan proposed a test. He said that if you were thinking of > adding something to your aircraft then throw it in the air. If it doesn't > stay there then it probably shouldn't be put on your aircraft. > > Seriously though, its a more of a mind set thing. You win the battle by > shaving off grams, not kilograms. Put a 100 grams here, a 100 grams > there, > and next thing you have added a kilo or two. > > The lightest Europa built was around 730 pounds I believe which was an > amazing achievement. I suspect that the builder just scrutinized > absolutely > every thing. The things that add weight are: > > - Modifications > - Modifications > - Modifications > - Filler > - Primer > - Paint > - Upholstery > - Constant speed propellers > - Instrumentation > - High redundancy electrical systems. > > Some trade offs you choose to have, for example a high redundancy > electrical > system (I have one) but, once you talk yourself into one thing its a > slippery slope. > > If you want to get specific help, see if you can get a listing of the > Europa > weights and contact the builders who have built light aircraft. The > lightest 914 mono I could find was 790 pounds.... I sure wish mine was > that > light. > > Paul > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:37 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Europa-List: Test flying - "Was What's up with the cost of 914?" William, Neils I don't particularly want to turn this in to who is wrong and who is right.... there isn't a definitive answer. Yes you can successfully test fly your own aircraft, many people have. Its all about the preparation. Assuming that the owner is well prepared there is still one key difference between the owner and a test pilot. The test pilot does not have any emotional attachment to the aircraft and if things don't go well he is likely to make different piloting decisions. So essentially if nothing goes wrong, and for a well prepared aircraft that would be 99% of the time, then it can be a rewarding experience, as it was in my case. The article I was refering to is on my WEB site, but here is the direct link. http://europa363.versadev.com/Test_Flying.html or you can get to it from the main page: http://europa363.versadev.com/ Regards, Paul ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:04 PM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls Hi Mark >I have flown in aircraft fitted with the Airmaster prop and it works OK but I still think the Warp Drive blades are terribly harsh and the Airmaster controller is poor value for money and lacking in capability.< I agree the warp drive blades are not ideal. In terms of the controller what lack of capability are you talking about? I find the controller perfect both in installation and use. I was put off by the Woodcomp initially because of the gear drive in the hub. This has probably been updated now. Its control boxes were too big to retrofit to my panel whereas the Airmaster was small and neat and provides all the control I want. I particularly like being able to select between T/O, Climb and Cruise settings without taking my attention from the world outside. Having started off with the NSI VP prop I was aware that VP without CS causes a significant increase in workload. I agree that the Airmaster is expensive but I believe they got most of their development done before selling to the public. This was not the case with the Woodcomp. Hopefully it is now at a stage where development is just refining the product. Assuming this is the case then it is very good value for money. When I bought my Airmaster I had been through a lot of hassle with NSI and wanted a prop that did everything I wanted. The Airmaster was the only one at the time that could provide that. As in the choice of engines what is important is getting the right product. Initial purchase price is only one part of the equation. Nigel Charles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.