Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:04 AM - Prop Balancing (Carl Pattinson)
2. 01:42 AM - Re: Woodcomp propeller controls (Mark Burton)
3. 02:08 AM - EAA Memorial Wall - ceremony remembering Cliff and Betty Shaw (Jeremy Davey)
4. 03:25 AM - First flight/William and Paul (Hans J. Danielsen)
5. 03:51 AM - Re: Test flying - "Was What's up with the cost of 914?" (William Daniell)
6. 04:21 AM - Re: builder test flying his own creation? (Niels Kock)
7. 04:40 AM - Re: Test flying - "Was What's up with the cost of 914?" (Niels Kock)
8. 04:45 AM - test flying your own... (Niels Kock)
9. 05:07 AM - Aluminium AN fittings (hpreusser)
10. 05:22 AM - Re: builder test flying his own creation? (Hans J. Danielsen)
11. 06:06 AM - Re: builder test flying his own creation? (Paul McAllister)
12. 10:01 AM - Re: } Prop Balancing (pete@lawless.info)
13. 11:47 AM - Re: } Prop Balancing (Mark Burton)
14. 12:05 PM - Re: } Prop Balancing (Carl Pattinson)
15. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: } Prop Balancing (Carl Pattinson)
16. 12:27 PM - Re: } Prop Balancing (Mark Burton)
17. 12:42 PM - Re: } Prop Balancing (Mike Parkin)
18. 01:44 PM - Re: } Prop Balancing (Carl Pattinson)
19. 02:17 PM - Re: } Prop Balancing (Mike Parkin)
20. 02:50 PM - Re: First flight/William and Paul (R.C.Harrison)
21. 03:57 PM - Re: First flight/William and Paul (rlborger)
22. 05:03 PM - Re: builder test flying his own creation? (Graham Singleton)
23. 05:23 PM - Re: } Prop Balancing (Graham Singleton)
24. 06:07 PM - Sternpost joggle ()
25. 06:21 PM - Spar guides? (Fred Klein)
26. 07:30 PM - Re: builder test flying his own creation? (europa flugzeug fabrik)
Message 1
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The EUROPA club has its own prop balancer which is available to club members
for a small charge.
Because it is quite tricky to setup and difficult to interperet the readings
(ie: you need training to get the best result) Pete Jeffers, the resident
expert keeps the kit and will come and set it up for you. You need to
balance the carbs beore hand as this affects the readings.
Pete balanced our prop last year and the whole procedure took about an hour.
I dont have his number but it is in the Europa Club mag somewhere.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> If anyone needs a balance within reasonable distance of Derbyshire give me
> a shout, I have Mark's balancer.
> Graham
>
> Mark Burton wrote:
>
>> If you want a smooth prop - balance it!
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> --
> Graham Singleton
>
> Tel: +441629820187
> Mob: +447739582005
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp propeller controls |
Hello Nigel,
If you compare the price of an airmaster (prop+controller) to the total price of
one of my controllers + either an Arplast PV50 or the Woodcomp SR3000, the Airmaster
is somewhat more expensive (in the UK). I have just checked the price
on the Europa website and the airmaster is 3754 (inc VAT). The SR3000 + a CSC-1
is 3145 (inc VAT) so the difference is about 600 quid - not much or a significant
saving depending on your state of wealth.
The CSC-1/G can be used with almost any prop that is controlled by electricity
- that also includes the hydraulic props that use a master cylinder driven by
an electric motor - GT make a prop like that and so does some other company. They
are used on aircraft like the Tecnam and the Pioneer.
Incidentally, I am sure that the CSC-1/G would drive the airmaster hub quite happily
but I don't think anyone has actually done that.
As for functionality, In one small(ish) enclosure, the CSC-1 provides:
* constant speed control
* RPM display
* manifold pressure display
* engine hours display
* prop pitch display (PV50 only)
* feather control (SR3000 only)
The ergonomics of the unit are such that you can switch modes and adjust the RPM
without looking at the display - also external switches can be fitted for these
functions so you can fit a switch next to the throttle or on top of your stick.
One nice extra that the CSC-1 gives you is that it detects when you shut the throttle
(in cruise mode) and it inhibits the pitch from being reduced so that when
you open the throttle again, the pitch hardly changes. So when you descend
into the circuit it doesn't wind the prop back to fully fine during the descent.
Not a major feature but a nice touch, nonetheless.
The Airmaster provides:
* constant speed controller
* feather control
I don't know if external switches can be fitted.
Anyway, for aeroplanes with little motors operating from short airstrips, a CS
prop is a real boon whatever the brand. If you have a large motor and miles of
runway, then one of the fancy fixed pitch props will provide better value.
As you say, at the time you fitted the airmaster it was probably the only sensible
choice. Now, there is more choice.
Regards,
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117238#117238
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| Subject: | EAA Memorial Wall - ceremony remembering Cliff and Betty |
Shaw
Folks,
At a time when we are all mourning the loss of Paul Sweeting and William
Mills, an email I received this morning from Cliff and Betty Shaw's family
is particularly poignant. They wanted to just let me know about the EAA
Memorial Wall at Oshkosh, and that there will be a ceremony there on Sunday
July 29th in memory of lost EAA members. I thought the Europa community,
many of whom will be planning to attend Oshkosh, might also want to know.
Kind regards,
Jeremy
Message 4
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| Subject: | First flight/William and Paul |
It is with very mixed feelings I write this. It was supposed to be a
glad announcement to the group that my plane LN-HJD finally flew on the
6th of june.
When opening the mail after beeing absent for a week - the tragick
passing of William and Paul grabbed my attention. I was overwhelmed by
shock and grief and not able to muster any enthusiasm towards my
original intention.
Both of these two gentlemen came to my house two years ago to inspect my
project (together with Graham Singleton and David Bos.). I flew with
William and got to know him as a warm, enthusiastic and positive person.
Every time I met him he approached me with this open, warm conduct, and
it was always a pleasure to be in his company. Paul was equally open and
positive, and was eager to sample as many ideas and suggestions as
possible for his own project.
A sad loss to all, but of course mostly to their families. They have my
deepest sympathy.
It does not feel right to make any other announcements here, but a short
report is in order. My project flew for the first time on the 6th of
june. I had to land after 10 minutes due to high oil temperature. After
extra bafling around the oil cooler the temperature stayed well within
limits. The second flight went very well indeed.
I will put forward on the list all the details required for the club
secretary. For now I just want to sit and contemplate.
Hans #334
Message 5
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| Subject: | Test flying - "Was What's up with the cost of 914?" |
Thanks. I was certainly planning to "qualify" on a europa and do some
unusual attitudes on an RV 4 before attempting the challenge. Having said
that I feel that this moment is a long way off...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 21:29
Subject: Europa-List: Test flying - "Was What's up with the cost of 914?"
<paul.mcallister@qia.net>
William, Neils
I don't particularly want to turn this in to who is wrong and who is
right.... there isn't a definitive answer.
Yes you can successfully test fly your own aircraft, many people have. Its
all about the preparation. Assuming that the owner is well prepared there
is still one key difference between the owner and a test pilot.
The test pilot does not have any emotional attachment to the aircraft and if
things don't go well he is likely to make different piloting decisions.
So essentially if nothing goes wrong, and for a well prepared aircraft that
would be 99% of the time, then it can be a rewarding experience, as it was
in my case.
The article I was refering to is on my WEB site, but here is the direct
link.
http://europa363.versadev.com/Test_Flying.html
or you can get to it from the main page:
http://europa363.versadev.com/
Regards, Paul
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: builder test flying his own creation? |
Oh, Graham!
Why must you rid me of my blissful ignorance? -as well regarding the
mathematic numbers
as the number of US first timers coming to grief.
Not any longer strutting around thinking that I am good AND lucky, but
henceforth realising that I am
just plain lucky, probably even unjustifiably so, will from now on mar my
every take off and landing.
(the latter never having won me any prize for elegance anyway).
Still, bearing your opening remarks in mind, and granting that you and Paul
are predominantly right,
I cannot but help giving an illustration to support my opinion on the
matter:
The year is 1995. ODA is inexorably taking shape, and my speculations about
the relentlessly
approaching day, where I must bow to the demand for tail-wheel tutelage is
beginning to ever so
faintly affect the peristalsis of my alimentary canal.
-We now jump a couple of months ahead. The dearth of tail wheel instructors
in our Queendom
made the choise easy, and I am now the humble survivor of 115 tail wheel
landings. "Why so humble,
this is not like him", I hear you mutter. Well, let me explain:
The long drawn out battle against a host of non-cooperative natural laws -
and, mind you, I am not using
the term 'losing battle'- has by now turned into a battle of attrition. Be
informed, that nothing has
been broken yet, not even the undercarriage of the clumsy, yes I used the
word clumsy, canary-yellow
Piper Cub. The only casualties so far are my pride and the sorely tested
patience of my instructor, a sinister,
but not entirely unfriendly man. You see, this cub was not blessed with an
intercom. Thus verbal tuition from
my tutor, long ago resigned to his fate, was not forthcoming during the
final approach to seemingly certain
desaster, but in the back of my head his icy disapproval of the proceedings
was evident, resulting in a tense-
ness in the abject pupil (me) beyond description. After 22 years with nose
wheel flying it is simply not possible
to look sideways during the final stage of landing, now, issit?
Finally, after another survival, he put a still slightly trembling hand on
my tense shoulder, sighed heartbrakingly,
and uttered these words, "Niels, I don't think you should spend more money
on this." My 6 ft something shrank
to approxymately half that size. But then his good heart, bless that, cut
in, because, after another, even deeper
sigh, he added.: "You get in now, make a circuit, and show me that you can
do this".
Lo and behold: I did it, of course. With an almost overwhelming sense of
freedom and relaxation.
and, so far I have been lucky.
That's my point.
Niels
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: builder test flying his own creation?
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> Niels
> good to see you here! I suspect that some monos ARE prone to ground loop
> and some aren't. Similarly some pilots are and some aren't. Two variables
> equals four times the risk, if you see what I mean.
>
> It is important to have full 13 degrees of up elevator to give enough down
> force with the tail wheel on the ground. that will give an AoA on the
> elevator of about 3 degrees? At 20 knots there isn't much force.
> It's also important that the pilot recognises the incipient yaw as soon as
> it starts because as soon as rotation starts momentum builds up and there
> isn't enough rudder/tailwheel resistance to stop it. Add the confusing
> effects from the outriggers rocking side to side and the pilots gyro will
> start to topple ?:-)
>
> In the USA the number of accidents to builders first flighting is
> depressingly high, (not just Europas) we spend all our waking hours
> thinking and doing the build and tend to neglect our flying skills. Then
> we try and fly an aircraft with unknown characteristics which might not
> even be true to type.
>
> Hope to see you over here one day?
>
> Graham
>
>
> Niels Kock wrote:
>> Paul, I am not sure that i quite agree with you, that if at all possible
>> the builder should refrain from
>> test flying his own Europa.
> I cannot, however, but ponder the number
>> of accidents having occurred to builders test flying their own Europa. Am
>> i wrong in assuming that
>> this number is very small ?
>
> --
> Graham Singleton
>
> Tel: +441629820187
> Mob: +447739582005
>
>
>
--
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Test flying - "Was What's up with the cost of 914?" |
Paul,
You are totally right, there are too many variables for one
correct solution.
And if I must be serious and honest with meself, and with all of you too, of
course,
I am convinced that your advise is the one to follow in the great majority
of cases.
still, it could be - if not fun, then interesting to read about the
experience of others.
Some of us perform best alone, others- most, probably- wisely benefit from
asistance
of more experienced peers.
Niels
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 4:28 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Test flying - "Was What's up with the cost of 914?"
> <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
>
> William, Neils
>
> I don't particularly want to turn this in to who is wrong and who is
> right.... there isn't a definitive answer.
>
> Yes you can successfully test fly your own aircraft, many people have.
> Its
> all about the preparation. Assuming that the owner is well prepared there
> is still one key difference between the owner and a test pilot.
>
> The test pilot does not have any emotional attachment to the aircraft and
> if
> things don't go well he is likely to make different piloting decisions.
>
> So essentially if nothing goes wrong, and for a well prepared aircraft
> that
> would be 99% of the time, then it can be a rewarding experience, as it was
> in my case.
>
> The article I was refering to is on my WEB site, but here is the direct
> link.
>
> http://europa363.versadev.com/Test_Flying.html
>
> or you can get to it from the main page:
>
> http://europa363.versadev.com/
>
> Regards, Paul
>
>
>
--
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Message 8
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| Subject: | test flying your own... |
Oh, and Paul,
thanks for the link to your article. I have printed it out and am looking f
orward to read and learn from it.
All the best,
Niels
--
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Aluminium AN fittings |
I was thinking of using aluminium AN fittings in the standard Europa
fuel cock to connect alu tubes to it instead of hoses. But now I am not
sure if it could develop into problems because of different metals,
brass cock and alu AN fitting.
On Cliff Shaws builder pages, photo no. 78, I found that you did it the
same way I have planned to do it. Could you comment whether you had any
problems so far?
Hans-Peter Reusser, Spiez, Switzerland.
Kit no. 498, Mono, Rotax 914, just before fitting cockpit module.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: builder test flying his own creation? |
Hi Graham, Niels,all.
I have followed this thread on first flights. I just did mine and had no
doubts doing it myself. I waited a long time for the right weather though. I
would not let any consideration regarding x-winds low ceilings etc., disturb
me.
You have to be current on tailwheels (cub's are fine), and not allow the
nose of the A/C to wander from the centerline. Stick in the stomach to
aileron-bite-speed and there you are. My take offs and landings are
non-events.
Hans
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: builder test flying his own creation?
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> Niels
> good to see you here! I suspect that some monos ARE prone to ground loop
> and some aren't. Similarly some pilots are and some aren't. Two variables
> equals four times the risk, if you see what I mean.
>
> It is important to have full 13 degrees of up elevator to give enough down
> force with the tail wheel on the ground. that will give an AoA on the
> elevator of about 3 degrees? At 20 knots there isn't much force.
> It's also important that the pilot recognises the incipient yaw as soon as
> it starts because as soon as rotation starts momentum builds up and there
> isn't enough rudder/tailwheel resistance to stop it. Add the confusing
> effects from the outriggers rocking side to side and the pilots gyro will
> start to topple ?:-)
>
> In the USA the number of accidents to builders first flighting is
> depressingly high, (not just Europas) we spend all our waking hours
> thinking and doing the build and tend to neglect our flying skills. Then
> we try and fly an aircraft with unknown characteristics which might not
> even be true to type.
>
> Hope to see you over here one day?
>
> Graham
>
>
> Niels Kock wrote:
>> Paul, I am not sure that i quite agree with you, that if at all possible
>> the builder should refrain from
>> test flying his own Europa.
> I cannot, however, but ponder the number
>> of accidents having occurred to builders test flying their own Europa. Am
>> i wrong in assuming that
>> this number is very small ?
>
> --
> Graham Singleton
>
> Tel: +441629820187
> Mob: +447739582005
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | builder test flying his own creation? |
Niels,
Thanks for this posting. I laughed until I nearly cried when I read your
experiences about learning to fly a tail dragger.
At 700 hours of Trigear, and admittedly 50 hours of sail plane time I
thought I'd better get a tail wheel rating.
I went to our local field where they had a Citaborea and signed up with a
guy who was an ex navy carrier pilot. Honest to god, every time I landed
the aircraft I just thought it was going to explode on the runway. No
sooner had it touched down it immediately decided to head for the weeds, no
matter what I commanded it to do. What used to surprise me even more on
how deftly my instructor could reach over and retrieve what seemed to me a
certain crash. I am pretty sure that the guys in the tower were selling
tickets for the free show.
After 6 hours and much head shaking by my instructor I began to wonder what
was I going to do with my near completed Europa sitting at home, it seemed
to me that I was going to destroy it.
Then suddenly one day I could do it, every time, under the most difficult of
conditions.
So I found your story quite amusing. My instructor never put his hand on my
shoulder and said "Paul I don't think you should spend more money
on this." but I know he was thinking it.
Thanks for sharing the story.
Paul
Message 12
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Sorry Carl I totally disagree with you.
Mark's balancer, one of which I own, is perfectly straight forward to set
up and use and produces excellent results. I had no dificulty in balancing
the NSI prop on my Classic and would recomend the equipment to any one.
You don't need training just read the manual!
Regards
Pete
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Carl Pattinson carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk
Subject: {Spam?} Europa-List: Prop Balancing
<carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
The EUROPA club has its own prop balancer which is available to club
members
for a small charge.
Because it is quite tricky to setup and difficult to interperet the
readings
(ie: you need training to get the best result) Pete Jeffers, the resident
expert keeps the kit and will come and set it up for you. You need to
balance the carbs beore hand as this affects the readings.
Pete balanced our prop last year and the whole procedure took about an hour.
I dont have his number but it is in the Europa Club mag somewhere.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> If anyone needs a balance within reasonable distance of Derbyshire give
me
> a shout, I have Mark's balancer.
> Graham
>
> Mark Burton wrote:
>
>> If you want a smooth prop - balance it!
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> --
> Graham Singleton
>
> Tel: +441629820187
> Mob: +447739582005
>
>
>
--
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: } Prop Balancing |
Thanks Pete!
RTFM = Read The Fine Manual (and double your mileage).
What I have found so far is that balancing a prop when everything else is perfect
is quite straightforward. The problem with propeller balancing is that quite
often, it's not the propeller that is the main source of vibration. For example,
in the last couple of weeks I have used my balancer on three installations:
1 - A 2 bladed composite prop on a 912S - propeller needed very little weight adding
- the real problem was the 912S inlet manifold (big tube thingy behind the
carbs) banging against an oil cooler mounting tray - when the owner sawed 1cm
off the corner of the tray, the thing went from being very lumpy to OK - 10
minutes later the prop was balanced as well. The owner was convinced that the
engine was going to have to be swapped!
2 - Airmaster prop on Jab 3300 - straightforward - started at around 0.2 IPS -
needed about 10 washers adding but finished up at 0.06 IPS - got a text message
from the owner today - he was very pleased with how smooth it had become.
3 - Arplast PV50 on a 912 - prop probably could be slightly better balanced but
this was impossible to achieve due to some as yet un-diagnosed problem with the
engine. (PJ - you were right, it's not the prop that's the major vibration
source here).
I think those 3 are quite representive of what you see when balancing props.
BTW - If you're using my PB-1 unit then it's fairly easy to spot non-prop vibration
right away because the graphical display will bounce around like a dingbat
and the numbers are inconsistent. If the prop is badly out of balance, the
display is much steadier and the numbers more consistent.
PB-1 owner/operators - please contact me off list if you have any questions regarding
its usage.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117331#117331
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balancing |
My message wasnt meant to be a criticism of the prop balancer, though even
with Pete Jeffers excellent explanation I struggled to grasp exactly what he
was doing, and we balanced two propellers on the day. But then I didnt have
the benefit of the instruction manual.
I would certainly agree it is an excellent piece of kit but as with all
things it takes practice to get the best out of it. I suspect if a prop is
wildly off balance it would have shown this. In my case my prop was almost
perfectly balanced before we started (purely by chance) and we spent half an
hour moving washers all over the place ending up with a single light washer
under one of the spinner screws. If I wanted to be cynical I could say it
was a waste of time but then no one knew the prop was in balance before we
started. In such a situation an inexperienced operator would have spent all
day trying to improve on what turned out to be a perfectly balanced
propeller. After all its a bit of a bummer to discover that you spent 1,500
only to find it made no improvement.
IMHO I dont think its possible to know when a prop is in balance and when it
isnt (unless its a long way out). Only recently I took Andy Draper for a
flight and he commented as we taxied out to the runway that he thought the
prop was out of balance - that was a couple of months after it was balanced.
The fact is that the slow running jets are a bit out adjustment (and they
are buggers to adjust). At 3000rpm and above (where it counts) its as smooth
as silk.
The point I should have made that as for the Europa club its an expensive
investment (and as they are no longer available irreplacable!). Its much
quicker and easier to gete Pete to do the job than to try and do it
yourself. Like many others i'm the sort of person who goes out and buys a
gadget to do a job I know I will only ever do once. My workshop is full of
brand new tools that rarely see the light of day. For most of us 1,500 is a
big investment when you can get the job done for 50.
Hope that makes things clearer.
Carl.
PS: If anyone s interested we used a Twinmax carb balancer which I can
highly reccommend. Cost 50 or im happy to loan mine for a small
consideration. details here
http://www.calamander.co.uk/twinmax/twinmaxmk2.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: <pete@lawless.info>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 5:59 PM
Subject: RE: } Europa-List: Prop Balancing
>
> Sorry Carl I totally disagree with you.
>
> Mark's balancer, one of which I own, is perfectly straight forward to set
> up and use and produces excellent results. I had no dificulty in
> balancing
> the NSI prop on my Classic and would recomend the equipment to any one.
> You don't need training just read the manual!
>
> Regards
>
> Pete
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Carl Pattinson carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk
> Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 08:02:38 +0100
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: {Spam?} Europa-List: Prop Balancing
>
>
> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> The EUROPA club has its own prop balancer which is available to club
> members
> for a small charge.
>
> Because it is quite tricky to setup and difficult to interperet the
> readings
> (ie: you need training to get the best result) Pete Jeffers, the resident
> expert keeps the kit and will come and set it up for you. You need to
> balance the carbs beore hand as this affects the readings.
>
> Pete balanced our prop last year and the whole procedure took about an
> hour.
>
> I dont have his number but it is in the Europa Club mag somewhere.
>
> Carl Pattinson
> G-LABS
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 12:02 AM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp propeller controls
>
>
>> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>>
>> If anyone needs a balance within reasonable distance of Derbyshire give
> me
>> a shout, I have Mark's balancer.
>> Graham
>>
>> Mark Burton wrote:
>>
>>> If you want a smooth prop - balance it!
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> --
>> Graham Singleton
>>
>> Tel: +441629820187
>> Mob: +447739582005
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web.com - Microsoft Exchange solutions from a leading provider -
> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: } Prop Balancing |
Hi Mark,
I think your message proves my case.
Its unquestionably an excellent piece of kit but it does need "an expert" to
determine whether it is the prop thats out of balance as opposed to some
other problem.
Im sure though that the manual covers such anomalies.
Carl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Burton" <markb@ordern.com>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 7:46 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: } Prop Balancing
>
> Thanks Pete!
>
> RTFM = Read The Fine Manual (and double your mileage).
>
> What I have found so far is that balancing a prop when everything else is
> perfect is quite straightforward. The problem with propeller balancing is
> that quite often, it's not the propeller that is the main source of
> vibration. For example, in the last couple of weeks I have used my
> balancer on three installations:
>
> 1 - A 2 bladed composite prop on a 912S - propeller needed very little
> weight adding - the real problem was the 912S inlet manifold (big tube
> thingy behind the carbs) banging against an oil cooler mounting tray -
> when the owner sawed 1cm off the corner of the tray, the thing went from
> being very lumpy to OK - 10 minutes later the prop was balanced as well.
> The owner was convinced that the engine was going to have to be swapped!
>
> 2 - Airmaster prop on Jab 3300 - straightforward - started at around 0.2
> IPS - needed about 10 washers adding but finished up at 0.06 IPS - got a
> text message from the owner today - he was very pleased with how smooth it
> had become.
>
> 3 - Arplast PV50 on a 912 - prop probably could be slightly better
> balanced but this was impossible to achieve due to some as yet
> un-diagnosed problem with the engine. (PJ - you were right, it's not the
> prop that's the major vibration source here).
>
> I think those 3 are quite representive of what you see when balancing
> props.
>
> BTW - If you're using my PB-1 unit then it's fairly easy to spot non-prop
> vibration right away because the graphical display will bounce around
> like a dingbat and the numbers are inconsistent. If the prop is badly out
> of balance, the display is much steadier and the numbers more consistent.
>
> PB-1 owner/operators - please contact me off list if you have any
> questions regarding its usage.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117331#117331
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: } Prop Balancing |
Hi Carl,
I agree with all you say except the bit about the club's PB-1 being irreplacable.
Maintenance of existing units is not a problem - I'm just not making any new
units right now.
Back to balancing - it's definitely something that you have to do to understand
what's going on. Reading the manual only takes you so far. I think that everytime
I balance a prop, I learn a little bit more.
Regards,
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117342#117342
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balancing |
For most of us 1,500 is a
> big investment when you can get the job done for 50.
>
Fortunately, at the moment I am able to borrow an ACES Computerised Balancer
from work. It does an excellent job at balancing the prop on my aircraft.
All that is necessary is to read the manual.
Carl, what you are saying is that the balancer bought by the club is for the
use of chosen individuals only - other lesser mortals have still to pay to
have their props balanced - is my understanding correct.
regards,
Mike
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balancing |
The prop balancer is (as far as I am know) is for use by Europa club members
only - if thats what you mean by the chosen few. However the charge (which I
believe is 50) is what we all pay. Its to cover the cost of the purchase
and for Pete Jeffers time and expertise (cheap by any standards).
I dont know if the Europa club would loan the kit to non members - you would
have to ask them. Personally I doubt it after all whats the point of having
a club if non members can enjoy the same benefits as those who subscribe..
Hope that clarifies things
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: } Europa-List: Prop Balancing
> <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
>
> For most of us 1,500 is a
>> big investment when you can get the job done for 50.
>>
>
> Fortunately, at the moment I am able to borrow an ACES Computerised
> Balancer from work. It does an excellent job at balancing the prop on my
> aircraft. All that is necessary is to read the manual.
>
> Carl, what you are saying is that the balancer bought by the club is for
> the use of chosen individuals only - other lesser mortals have still to
> pay to have their props balanced - is my understanding correct.
>
> regards,
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balancing |
Carl,
You missed the point. The question is, is the club owned prop balancer
available to club members - or, is a prop balancing service kindly provided
by Pete the only thing that is available - at a cost.
regards,
MIke
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: } Europa-List: Prop Balancing
> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> The prop balancer is (as far as I am know) is for use by Europa club
> members only - if thats what you mean by the chosen few. However the
> charge (which I believe is 50) is what we all pay. Its to cover the cost
> of the purchase and for Pete Jeffers time and expertise (cheap by any
> standards).
>
> I dont know if the Europa club would loan the kit to non members - you
> would have to ask them. Personally I doubt it after all whats the point of
> having a club if non members can enjoy the same benefits as those who
> subscribe..
>
> Hope that clarifies things
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:42 PM
> Subject: Re: } Europa-List: Prop Balancing
>
>
>> <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
>>
>> For most of us 1,500 is a
>>> big investment when you can get the job done for 50.
>>>
>>
>> Fortunately, at the moment I am able to borrow an ACES Computerised
>> Balancer from work. It does an excellent job at balancing the prop on my
>> aircraft. All that is necessary is to read the manual.
>>
>> Carl, what you are saying is that the balancer bought by the club is for
>> the use of chosen individuals only - other lesser mortals have still to
>> pay to have their props balanced - is my understanding correct.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> 269.8.11/838 - Release Date: 07/06/2007 14:21
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | First flight/William and Paul |
Congratulations Hans.
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans J.
Danielsen
Sent: 08 June 2007 11:24
Subject: Europa-List: First flight/
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: First flight/William and Paul |
Hans,
Warmest congratulations on the first flight of LN-HJD. It is
successes like yours which serve to brighten our lives, especially in
times of trouble. You should be very proud of your accomplishment
even as we mourn our friends departure.
Great flying,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch
system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in,
Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar
in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear
complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, except for
testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). Airmaster Prop
installed. Electrical complete, except for testing. Fuel system
complete except for testing. Working in - 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches &
35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05.
Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived and is
being installed.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: builder test flying his own creation? |
Niels
You are too hard on yourself! (and thank you for making me smile again)
You and I learnt to fly taildraggers later in life than the ideal, I do
so envy the young ones their ability to learn so easily, (provided they
have the necessary open mind). As Paul remarks, sometimes there is no
choice but nevertheless a test pilot current on type will always be the
best choice because it removes one very large variable from the equation.
regards
Graham
Niels Kock wrote:
>
> Oh, Graham!
> Why must you rid me of my blissful ignorance? -as well regarding the
> mathematic numbers
> as the number of US first timers coming to grief.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balancing |
Sure
read the manual, at least three times!
Graham
pete@lawless.info wrote:
> Sorry Carl I totally disagree with you.
I had no dificulty in balancing the NSI prop on my Classic and would
recomend the equipment to any one.
> You don't need training just read the manual!
>
> Regards
>
> Pete
Message 24
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| Subject: | Sternpost joggle |
My XS sternpost has a horizontal joggle bout 6" from the top right bout
where the top rudder hinge wants to live (perhaps clearance for the top
cap joggle? Cap not in hangar).
Anyway the 3 rudder hinges need to be on the same plain.
What have builders done to deal with this top joggle not allowing the top
rudder hinge from laying flat and forcing it inboard compared to the
others (by bout little over an 1/8"?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Message 25
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As I see the underside of the CM resting vertically on the floor w/ the
wings nicely mated and spar sockets in place, it occurs to me to
consider whether or not a couple of FG straps part way around the spars
might be useful to aid in the insertion of the wing spars during normal
rigging. Since I understand that the spar ends (between the two main
bolts/pip pin) I would think that such guide straps would want to be
held off the edges of the spar a nominal distance (1/8"?) in order not
to transmit in flight loads to portions of the CM not designed to take
them. .
I'm wondering if this is something others have done (?), whether it's a
good idea (?) or am I trying to address something which simply isn't a
problem (?) and just adding unnecessary weight and build-time?
Obsessing again,
Fred
A194
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Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: builder test flying his own creation? |
grahamsingleton(at)btinte wrote:
> In the USA the number of accidents to builders first flighting is depressingly
high, (not just Europas) we spend all our waking hours thinking and doing the
build and tend to neglect our flying skills. Then we try and fly an aircraft
with unknown characteristics which might not even be true to type.
This is actually old history. One can take NTSB's raw data file each year and
analyze amateur-built accidents by A/C type and airframe hours at the time of
the accident. We will first see that around 90% of completions are now kitplanes,
and accidents due to mechanical causes are way down. So are pilot error
accidents, because these are becoming infrequent with fewer planes with difficult
flight characteristics and not enough of them built to get some dual before
first flight.
With kits we have standardization of construction instructions and further support
from the kit mfr. We have type-specific support available on the internet.
There still are some accidents, mostly due to a builders "better" way of implementing
the fuel system or installing a used automobile engine in a poor way.
Fred F.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117416#117416
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