Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:57 AM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (William Harrison)
2. 03:35 AM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (Jeremy Davey)
3. 03:55 AM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (Carl Pattinson)
4. 04:02 AM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (William Harrison)
5. 04:23 AM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (William Harrison)
6. 04:37 AM - Re: 180 turns (Gilles Thesee)
7. 05:24 AM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (Raimo Toivio)
8. 06:13 AM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (Paul Boulet)
9. 06:17 AM - Re: 180 turns (William Daniell)
10. 06:42 AM - Re: 180 turns (Carl Pattinson)
11. 06:58 AM - Re: 180 turns (William Daniell)
12. 07:09 AM - Re: 180 turns (Gilles Thesee)
13. 07:15 AM - Re: 180 turns (Carl Pattinson)
14. 07:16 AM - Re: 180 turns (Richard Iddon)
15. 07:33 AM - Re: 180 turns (G-IANI)
16. 07:33 AM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (Raimo Toivio)
17. 07:48 AM - Re: turning stall, was 180 turn (Robert Borger)
18. 08:04 AM - Paul's funeral (Laura Farmer)
19. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: turning stall, was 180 turn (Andrew Sarangan)
20. 09:20 AM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (Alan Burrows)
21. 10:03 AM - Re: Turning Stall (Robert Borger)
22. 10:16 AM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (Brian Davies)
23. 11:01 AM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (William Harrison)
24. 11:58 AM - Re: Re: Turning Stall (JEFF ROBERTS)
25. 12:24 PM - Re: Paul's funeral (Fred Klein)
26. 12:56 PM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (Mike Gregory)
27. 01:05 PM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (David Joyce)
28. 01:11 PM - 180 degree turn back (JonSmith)
29. 02:06 PM - Re: 180 degree turn back (Rick Stockton)
30. 02:22 PM - Re: 180 degree turn back (Hans J. Danielsen)
31. 02:24 PM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (Tim Ward)
32. 02:36 PM - Re: 180 degree turn back (Tim Ward)
33. 04:50 PM - Re: Europa Incident (D.Hetrick)
34. 05:23 PM - Re: Europa Incident (Fred Klein)
35. 06:21 PM - Re: 180 degree turn back (G&TPowell)
36. 07:49 PM - Re: 180 degree turn back (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
37. 09:14 PM - Re: 180 degree turn back (Tom Friedland)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However,
it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow,
who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that
you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for
many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll practise a few
more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between
200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
> A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce
> c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a
> week.
>
> He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is
> a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash
> site is between the runway and the golf course.
>
> It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think
> if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural
> emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control
> failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know.
>
> Tom
>
>
> On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
> Dave and Dale,
>
> I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
> family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
> personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
> information on the accident with the Europa community.
>
> Fred
>
> >
> > After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> > out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it
> was,
> > in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> > terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> > terrible loss.
> > Dale Hetrick
>
> On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
>
> > Mike,
> >
> > Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the
> time
> > of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> > about a year ago:
> >
> > The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> > dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> > Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> > tie bar for restraint.
> >
> > I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> > after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the
> airplane
> > at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> > nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he
> used to
> > hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> > accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> > other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> > of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
> >
> > Dave DeFord
> > N135TD
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Europa Incident - 180 turns |
Willie,
Was John's demonstration with the prop stopped, or engine idling? It's my
understanding that a stationary prop (particularly one which is not
feathered) significantly increases the rate of descent.
Regards,
Jeremy
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Harrison
Sent: 19 June 2007 10:57
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it
highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who did
my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a safe
180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I practised a
few times. I think I'll practise a few more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200 and
300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130
pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a large
golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is between the
runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he had
an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead. Can
that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical
cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
--
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp
Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this
stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep
bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn at such a height would
almost certainly result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable
results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height
will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and
the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree
turn may be possible if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in
shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash
would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in
Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few
injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However,
it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow,
who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you
can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many
types). I practised a few times. I think I'll practise a few more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between
200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce
c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a
large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is
between the runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think
if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency
site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a
sudden medical cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have
had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share
any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who
flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it
was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours.
Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the
time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he
posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local
boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump
is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the
wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not
long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the
airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't
know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he
used to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen
to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have
heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
Jeremy
It was idling. Has anyone got any other data?
Regards
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:27, Jeremy Davey wrote:
> Willie,
>
>
> Was John=92s demonstration with the prop stopped, or engine idling?
> It=92s my understanding that a stationary prop (particularly one
> which is not feathered) significantly increases the rate of descent.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeremy
>
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Harrison
> Sent: 19 June 2007 10:57
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
>
> Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident.
> However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway.
> John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/
> showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much
> lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll
> practise a few more times.
>
>
> The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was
> between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
>
>
> Willie
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
>
>
> A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce
> c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a
> week.
>
>
> He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is
> a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash
> site is between the runway and the golf course.
>
>
> It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think
> if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural
> emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control
> failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know.
>
>
> Tom
>
>
> On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
> Dave and Dale,
>
> I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
> family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
> personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
> information on the accident with the Europa community.
>
> Fred
>
> >
> > After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> > out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it
> was,
> > in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> > terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> > terrible loss.
> > Dale Hetrick
>
> On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
>
> > Mike,
> >
> > Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the
> time
> > of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> > about a year ago:
> >
> > The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> > dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> > Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> > tie bar for restraint.
> >
> > I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> > after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the
> airplane
> > at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> > nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he
> used to
> > hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> > accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> > other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> > of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
> >
> > Dave DeFord
> > N135TD
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ========================
> ========================
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
Carl,
Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in
any aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height it
might be a lifesaver. So, what is the height for various permutations
of airspeed, flap, weight, prop status etc?
I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts,
flaps up (trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a
personal rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back
is worth deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
What other views/data has anyone got?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
> Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the
> 80hp Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots
> at this stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500
> feet) .The steep bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn
> at such a height would almost certainly result the inboard wing
> stalling with inevitable results.
>
> Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low
> height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under
> 500 feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead -
> sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible if the field is large
> enough.
>
> While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even
> in shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa
> crash would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three
> years ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants
> survived with few injuries.
>
> Carl Pattinson
> G-LABS
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: William Harrison
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
> Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident.
> However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway.
> John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/
> showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much
> lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll
> practise a few more times.
>
> The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was
> between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
>
> Willie
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
>
>> A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce
>> c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a
>> week.
>>
>> He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is
>> a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash
>> site is between the runway and the golf course.
>>
>> It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think
>> if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural
>> emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control
>> failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>> Dave and Dale,
>>
>> I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
>> family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have
>> had
>> personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share
>> any
>> information on the accident with the Europa community.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>> >
>> > After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who
>> flies
>> > out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it
>> was,
>> > in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
>> > terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
>> > terrible loss.
>> > Dale Hetrick
>>
>> On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
>>
>> > Mike,
>> >
>> > Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the
>> time
>> > of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
>> > about a year ago:
>> >
>> > The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local
>> boat
>> > dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
>> > Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the
>> wing
>> > tie bar for restraint.
>> >
>> > I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
>> > after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the
>> airplane
>> > at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
>> > nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he
>> used to
>> > hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
>> > accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
>> > other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
>> > of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>> >
>> > Dave DeFord
>> > N135TD
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and
>> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
>> believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhref="http://
>> forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://
> www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://
> forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List_-
> ============================================================ _-
> forums.matronics.com_-
> ===========================================================
>
Message 6
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William Harrison a crit :
> John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa,
> told/showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet
> (much lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think
> I'll practise a few more times.
William and all,
Sorry to hear about this sad loss.
The first thing an instructor shows, is that it takes more than a 180 to
turn back to the runway : it is safe to assume it takes one 270 degree
turn in one direction, and 90 degrees in the other direction to land
back on the same runway. 360 degrees total. You also need some height to
straighten the wings and flare.
360 degrees is twice what many pilots feel is necessary, hence the
dramatic turn of events when they realize they still have lots of
distance to travel to make the intended threshold. Most "turn back"
crashes occur AT THE END of the maneuver, when the ground is rushing
toward you at 1000 ft/min, and you are below tree tops, and still trying
to make that out-of-reach runway.
Of course, if you are far enough, you can replace this 270+90 by
something somewhat resembling a tear drop. But if you are far enough
from the runway, you also have height and time to make sound decisions.
The second thing we show our students, is how much height it takes to
perform a power-off full 360 from a climb attitude at slow speed, with
flaps down and prop in fine pitch. 300 feet seems very low, especially
considering some Europas have less than gentle stall characteristics in
a turn, as evoked in last year postings.
I suggest Europa pilots do the maneuver (at a safe altitude) and report
the recorded loss of height for the education of us all.
My sympathy and thoughts go out to the families and friends.
Regards,
--
Gilles Thesee
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
and try to save the plane and make a day.
If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
goes well, you will fly again in the same day
(after refueling or what so ever).
What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
Break your baby or take a risk of death.
Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
There are let=B4s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
5% ? 10% ?
I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms.
Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety
officer?
What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75 knots
MINIMUM.
in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against gusts
and failures.
When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3
feets.
Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing
speed is 75 knots.
With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000 feet.
I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with black
rubber and was screaming.
Regards, Raimo
============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful
landings
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Carl,
Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in any
aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height it might
be a lifesaver. So, what is the height for various permutations of
airspeed, flap, weight, prop status etc?
I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts, flaps
up (trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a
personal rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back is
worth deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
What other views/data has anyone got?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the
80hp Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at
this stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The
steep bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn at such a height
would almost certainly result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable
results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height
will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and
the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree
turn may be possible if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in
shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash
would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in
Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few
injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident.
However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John
Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me
that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for
many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll practise a few more
times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was
between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce
c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there
is a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site
is between the runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would
think if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural
emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control failure or
perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends
and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to
have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to
share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
gdh@isp.com>
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill
who flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told
me it was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was
a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours.
Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at
the time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he
posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the
local boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the
pump is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to
the wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago,
not long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the
airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I
don't know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs
he used to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in
this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely to
happen to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I
have heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
--
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
Hi all;
Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180 with your
prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I owned a Cessna 172 for
many years and at altitude practiced the turn back. You actually turn more than
180 degrees- something like 210 if I recall so that you can fly back to the
runway. Then you have to turn 30 degrees in opposite direction to line back
up with r-way centerline. In my Cessna I recall losing some 800 feet of altitude-
possibly more (it's been awhile). Upon takeoff I would call out "decision
height" even if no one else was listening as a reminder of whether I would
control crash straight ahead... or turn back to r-way.
Keep the shiny side up;
Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California
Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
and try to save the plane and make a day.
If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
goes well, you will fly again in the same day
(after refueling or what so ever).
What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
Break your baby or take a risk of death.
Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
There are lets say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
5% ? 10% ?
I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms.
Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety officer?
What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75 knots MINIMUM.
in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against gusts and
failures.
When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3 feets.
Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing speed is
75 knots.
With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000 feet.
I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with black rubber and
was screaming.
Regards, Raimo
============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful landings
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Carl,
Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in any aircraft,
but different for every aircraft. Above that height it might be a lifesaver.
So, what is the height for various permutations of airspeed, flap, weight,
prop status etc?
I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts, flaps up (trigear,
100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a personal rule
of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back is worth deriving in
advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
What other views/data has anyone got?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp Fixed
pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage flaps down
(we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that would be required
for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly result the
inboard wing stalling with inevitable results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height will know
that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the only safe
option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible
if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in shrub or
bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would walk away from
it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands)
and the occupants survived with few injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it highlights
the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who did my conversion
training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn
back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I practised a few times.
I think I'll practise a few more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200 and
300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130 pilot/instructor.
He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a large golf
course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is between the runway
and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he had
an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead. Can that
mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We
may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote: Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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Message 9
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What happens when you stall a Europa in a turn?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 06:27
Subject: Re: Europa-List: 180 turns
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
William Harrison a crit :
> John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa,
> told/showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet
> (much lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think
> I'll practise a few more times.
William and all,
Sorry to hear about this sad loss.
The first thing an instructor shows, is that it takes more than a 180 to
turn back to the runway : it is safe to assume it takes one 270 degree
turn in one direction, and 90 degrees in the other direction to land
back on the same runway. 360 degrees total. You also need some height to
straighten the wings and flare.
360 degrees is twice what many pilots feel is necessary, hence the
dramatic turn of events when they realize they still have lots of
distance to travel to make the intended threshold. Most "turn back"
crashes occur AT THE END of the maneuver, when the ground is rushing
toward you at 1000 ft/min, and you are below tree tops, and still trying
to make that out-of-reach runway.
Of course, if you are far enough, you can replace this 270+90 by
something somewhat resembling a tear drop. But if you are far enough
from the runway, you also have height and time to make sound decisions.
The second thing we show our students, is how much height it takes to
perform a power-off full 360 from a climb attitude at slow speed, with
flaps down and prop in fine pitch. 300 feet seems very low, especially
considering some Europas have less than gentle stall characteristics in
a turn, as evoked in last year postings.
I suggest Europa pilots do the maneuver (at a safe altitude) and report
the recorded loss of height for the education of us all.
My sympathy and thoughts go out to the families and friends.
Regards,
--
Gilles Thesee
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 10
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To a degree it depends on the direction of the turn and whether flaps up or
down.
Most Europas tend to stall one wing down (ours is to the left). This can be
minimised by using stall strips but they cause other problems.
Most likely outcome is a spin or incipient. This will by accompanied by a
considerable loss in height.
It is also dependent on the method of recovery used. Inexperienced pilots
try and recover an incipient spin with ailerons - its an instinctive
reaction. This will make the situation worse and may cause a spiral dive.
But then everyone knows you should use rudder to correct a spin - dont they?
I have deliberately stalled a Europa in a turn and it is interesting (at
4,000ft !!!) - you definitely lose a lot of height.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 180 turns
>
> What happens when you stall a Europa in a turn?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 06:27
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: 180 turns
>
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> William Harrison a crit :
>> John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa,
>> told/showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet
>> (much lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think
>> I'll practise a few more times.
> William and all,
>
> Sorry to hear about this sad loss.
>
> The first thing an instructor shows, is that it takes more than a 180 to
> turn back to the runway : it is safe to assume it takes one 270 degree
> turn in one direction, and 90 degrees in the other direction to land
> back on the same runway. 360 degrees total. You also need some height to
> straighten the wings and flare.
>
> 360 degrees is twice what many pilots feel is necessary, hence the
> dramatic turn of events when they realize they still have lots of
> distance to travel to make the intended threshold. Most "turn back"
> crashes occur AT THE END of the maneuver, when the ground is rushing
> toward you at 1000 ft/min, and you are below tree tops, and still trying
> to make that out-of-reach runway.
>
> Of course, if you are far enough, you can replace this 270+90 by
> something somewhat resembling a tear drop. But if you are far enough
> from the runway, you also have height and time to make sound decisions.
>
> The second thing we show our students, is how much height it takes to
> perform a power-off full 360 from a climb attitude at slow speed, with
> flaps down and prop in fine pitch. 300 feet seems very low, especially
> considering some Europas have less than gentle stall characteristics in
> a turn, as evoked in last year postings.
>
> I suggest Europa pilots do the maneuver (at a safe altitude) and report
> the recorded loss of height for the education of us all.
>
> My sympathy and thoughts go out to the families and friends.
> Regards,
> --
> Gilles Thesee
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
Message 11
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Ok forgive my ignorance but what effect do stall strips have?
(I think) I know that they stall the root first...but then what happens?
I remember reading a book by I think chuck yeager or one of his buddies who
said that the mustang used to snap roll when stalled in a turn...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 08:42
Subject: Re: Europa-List: 180 turns
<carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
To a degree it depends on the direction of the turn and whether flaps up or
down.
Most Europas tend to stall one wing down (ours is to the left). This can be
minimised by using stall strips but they cause other problems.
Most likely outcome is a spin or incipient. This will by accompanied by a
considerable loss in height.
It is also dependent on the method of recovery used. Inexperienced pilots
try and recover an incipient spin with ailerons - its an instinctive
reaction. This will make the situation worse and may cause a spiral dive.
But then everyone knows you should use rudder to correct a spin - dont they?
I have deliberately stalled a Europa in a turn and it is interesting (at
4,000ft !!!) - you definitely lose a lot of height.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 180 turns
>
> What happens when you stall a Europa in a turn?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 06:27
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: 180 turns
>
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> William Harrison a crit :
>> John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa,
>> told/showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet
>> (much lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think
>> I'll practise a few more times.
> William and all,
>
> Sorry to hear about this sad loss.
>
> The first thing an instructor shows, is that it takes more than a 180 to
> turn back to the runway : it is safe to assume it takes one 270 degree
> turn in one direction, and 90 degrees in the other direction to land
> back on the same runway. 360 degrees total. You also need some height to
> straighten the wings and flare.
>
> 360 degrees is twice what many pilots feel is necessary, hence the
> dramatic turn of events when they realize they still have lots of
> distance to travel to make the intended threshold. Most "turn back"
> crashes occur AT THE END of the maneuver, when the ground is rushing
> toward you at 1000 ft/min, and you are below tree tops, and still trying
> to make that out-of-reach runway.
>
> Of course, if you are far enough, you can replace this 270+90 by
> something somewhat resembling a tear drop. But if you are far enough
> from the runway, you also have height and time to make sound decisions.
>
> The second thing we show our students, is how much height it takes to
> perform a power-off full 360 from a climb attitude at slow speed, with
> flaps down and prop in fine pitch. 300 feet seems very low, especially
> considering some Europas have less than gentle stall characteristics in
> a turn, as evoked in last year postings.
>
> I suggest Europa pilots do the maneuver (at a safe altitude) and report
> the recorded loss of height for the education of us all.
>
> My sympathy and thoughts go out to the families and friends.
> Regards,
> --
> Gilles Thesee
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
Message 12
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William Daniell a crit :
> what effect do stall strips have?
>
> (I think) I know that they stall the root first...but then what happens?
>
That's correct.
You get plenty of warning prior to the stall, and even if you get into
the stall you maintain roll control.
> I remember reading a book by I think chuck yeager or one of his buddies who
> said that the mustang used to snap roll when stalled in a turn...
Most light airplanes give plenty of warning, are reluctant to stall in a
turn, and if really obliged to, gently lower the upper wing, regaining a
wing level attitude.
Some homebuilts are not so well behaved, often due to discrepancies in
wing rigging.
All the above assuming the slip ball is reasonably centered....
Otherwise, you may enter a spin, and MANY light aircraft might snap
towards the lower wing....
Regards,
--
Gilles Thesee
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 13
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If there is any twist in the wings , one is likely to stall before the other
causing a wing drop and then a spin.
The stall strips are used to ensure both wings stall at the same time. I
believe they also cause pre stall buffet, warning the pilot of an impending
stall.
Thats the theory anyway.
We dont have them fitted so cant comment any further - do have a stall
warner though.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:55 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 180 turns
>
> Ok forgive my ignorance but what effect do stall strips have?
>
> (I think) I know that they stall the root first...but then what happens?
>
> I remember reading a book by I think chuck yeager or one of his buddies
> who
> said that the mustang used to snap roll when stalled in a turn...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl
> Pattinson
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 08:42
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: 180 turns
>
> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> To a degree it depends on the direction of the turn and whether flaps up
> or
> down.
>
> Most Europas tend to stall one wing down (ours is to the left). This can
> be
> minimised by using stall strips but they cause other problems.
>
> Most likely outcome is a spin or incipient. This will by accompanied by a
> considerable loss in height.
>
> It is also dependent on the method of recovery used. Inexperienced pilots
> try and recover an incipient spin with ailerons - its an instinctive
> reaction. This will make the situation worse and may cause a spiral dive.
>
> But then everyone knows you should use rudder to correct a spin - dont
> they?
>
> I have deliberately stalled a Europa in a turn and it is interesting (at
> 4,000ft !!!) - you definitely lose a lot of height.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:16 PM
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: 180 turns
>
>
>> <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
>>
>> What happens when you stall a Europa in a turn?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles
>> Thesee
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 06:27
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: 180 turns
>>
>> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>>
>> William Harrison a crit :
>>> John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa,
>>> told/showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet
>>> (much lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think
>>> I'll practise a few more times.
>> William and all,
>>
>> Sorry to hear about this sad loss.
>>
>> The first thing an instructor shows, is that it takes more than a 180 to
>> turn back to the runway : it is safe to assume it takes one 270 degree
>> turn in one direction, and 90 degrees in the other direction to land
>> back on the same runway. 360 degrees total. You also need some height to
>> straighten the wings and flare.
>>
>> 360 degrees is twice what many pilots feel is necessary, hence the
>> dramatic turn of events when they realize they still have lots of
>> distance to travel to make the intended threshold. Most "turn back"
>> crashes occur AT THE END of the maneuver, when the ground is rushing
>> toward you at 1000 ft/min, and you are below tree tops, and still trying
>> to make that out-of-reach runway.
>>
>> Of course, if you are far enough, you can replace this 270+90 by
>> something somewhat resembling a tear drop. But if you are far enough
>> from the runway, you also have height and time to make sound decisions.
>>
>> The second thing we show our students, is how much height it takes to
>> perform a power-off full 360 from a climb attitude at slow speed, with
>> flaps down and prop in fine pitch. 300 feet seems very low, especially
>> considering some Europas have less than gentle stall characteristics in
>> a turn, as evoked in last year postings.
>>
>> I suggest Europa pilots do the maneuver (at a safe altitude) and report
>> the recorded loss of height for the education of us all.
>>
>> My sympathy and thoughts go out to the families and friends.
>> Regards,
>> --
>> Gilles Thesee
>> http://contrails.free.fr
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 14
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I intentionally tried it last year. The airplane flipped completely
inverted then ended up pointing at the ground. Fortunately I was at
6000ft. at the time so had ample time to pull out but I lost the best
part of 1000ft.
Richard Iddon G-RIXS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Daniell
Sent: 19 June 2007 14:16
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 180 turns
<wdaniell@etb.net.co>
What happens when you stall a Europa in a turn?
18/06/2007 15:02
Message 15
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After last years accident I had a number of long discussions with my
very experience instructor. So one afternoon she suggested we go out
and do everything we had been talking about (at a safe 4000 ft).
Deliberately stalling G-IANI in a 60 degree turn proved to be a non
event in terms of any sort of wing drop or roll. But you do loose a lot
of height VERY quickly.
Later the instructor did the same tests in G-IRON, which is not quite as
well behaved in a straight stall, again with no drama and simple
recovery.
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
When I practised Europa emergency landings
with standing prop my height was 1000 feet
from the ground when in downwind.
I keeped it clean until over landing place in final.
So I could be sure to reach estimated target.
Any lower and I would not feel comfortable.
Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Boulet
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Hi all;
Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180
with your prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I owned
a Cessna 172 for many years and at altitude practiced the turn back.
You actually turn more than 180 degrees- something like 210 if I recall
so that you can fly back to the runway. Then you have to turn 30
degrees in opposite direction to line back up with r-way centerline. In
my Cessna I recall losing some 800 feet of altitude- possibly more (it's
been awhile). Upon takeoff I would call out "decision height" even if
no one else was listening as a reminder of whether I would control crash
straight ahead... or turn back to r-way.
Keep the shiny side up;
Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California
Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
and try to save the plane and make a day.
If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
goes well, you will fly again in the same day
(after refueling or what so ever).
What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
Break your baby or take a risk of death.
Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
There are let=B4s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
5% ? 10% ?
I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the
mechanisms.
Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety
officer?
What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75
knots MINIMUM.
in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against
gusts and failures.
When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3
feets.
Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing
speed is 75 knots.
With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000
feet.
I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with black
rubber and was screaming.
Regards, Raimo
============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful
landings
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Carl,
Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in
any aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height it
might be a lifesaver. So, what is the height for various permutations of
airspeed, flap, weight, prop status etc?
I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts,
flaps up (trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a
personal rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back is
worth deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
What other views/data has anyone got?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have
the 80hp Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at
this stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The
steep bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn at such a height
would almost certainly result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable
results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low
height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500
feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90
degree turn may be possible if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead
even in shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa
crash would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years
ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few
injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident.
However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John
Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me
that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for
many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll practise a few more
times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was
between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an
airforce c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like
once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West
there is a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The
crash site is between the runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would
think if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural
emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control failure or
perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the
friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear
to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue
to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
gdh@isp.com>
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken
Hill who flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing,
told me it was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken
was a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours.
Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord
wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been
installed at the time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which
he posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from
the local boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and
the pump is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped
to the wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year
ago, not long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in
the airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I
don't know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the
tie-downs he used to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire
in this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely
to happen to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I
have heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly
vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
--
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| Subject: | Re: turning stall, was 180 turn |
William and other Europaphies,
I can't speak directly for the Europa as mine is still 10 - 12 weeks from flying.
But my experience in the C-150, Champ & Supercub was pretty much the same.
Granted, they are not aircraft with laminar flow wing sections, but it's the
best I can do right now. Never tried them in the Tri-Pacer, Colt or any of the
Cherokee types or the Diamonds.
1: Stall in a coordinated turn, ball centered - high wing stalls first, aircraft
rolls level in the stall as the nose drops. Maybe a bit more than typical altitude
loss. Nothing evil happens.
2: Stall in a slipping condition, ball outside - high wing stall first, aircraft
rolls level in the stall as the nose drops. For sure, a bit more than typical
altitude loss. Nothing evil happens.
3: Stall in a skidding condition, ball inside - low wing stalls first, aircraft
rolls near inverted as the nose drops. Huge altitude loss. Could spin if there
is sufficient altitude. This is usually performed on the overshot base to
final turn where extra rudder is used to encourage the nose around. If that
is the situation, you will hit the ground inverted as there is no possible recovery.
Later this year, I'll report on what N914XL does in these situations as I will
be testing them with plenty of altitude during my 40 hours of test flying.
I hope this helps,
Bob Borger
Message 18
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Just a quick note to thank all of you who made such an effort to come to
Paul's funeral last week. I know he would have been so pleased to see so
many of his "flying" friends there. Thank you also for making the effort to
speak to myself and his family, both on Friday and at William's funeral
yesterday, you have all been lovely. As I said before, he always wanted me
to be involved in his passion, we had plans for much more flying this year,
but just by communicating with you I feel I am doing my best for him. We
laid some of his ashes to rest today, on a hilltop above his hometown of
Tredegar, where quite a few planes fly overhead. The rest, as some of you
will know, we would like to have scattered from a plane of some kind over
his favourite hills nearby. As soon as I have confirmed this with his
parents I will be in touch to arrange this.
As for the ongoing AAIB investigation, I'm sure the PFA will be passing on
what findings they hear to yourselves, and I appreciate that these are
possibly even more important to you than they are to us, as, although we
want to know eventually, nothing will bring Paul or William back.
Many Thanks again,
Laura Farmer
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: turning stall, was 180 turn |
I have learned from experience that stall characteristics are very
specific to each airframe. There are only generic similarities across
the same model. Even in the ubiquitous Cessna 172, the stall
characteristics may appear to be consistent during an imminent stall,
but if you push it deeper into a stall, or an uncoordinated stall, the
characteristics are not at all similar. On an experimental
construction, I would expect these variations to be more drastic than
in production models.
As soon as I heard about this accident, I looked at the google
satellite map of Livermore airport and wondered why he was tempted to
make a 180. If the golf course had people in it that might be one
reason, but it looks like there are quite a few cow pastures slightly
left of course, and some shallow lakes (reservoirs?) further left.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Europa Incident - 180 turns |
Another useful piece of advice is to always use the FULL amount of runway
available (even if it is a large commercial airport). I once had an engine
failure after doing a go around from an ILS approach. I had climbed to 200
ft when the engine quit, but luckily I had enough runway ahead of me to just
about get it back on the ground safely. If you can get to 200 ft agl with
remaining runway available then it way worth the long taxi to the end before
departing should the noise stop!
Just my opinion based on personal experience.
Alan
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Harrison
Sent: 19 June 2007 12:22
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Carl,
Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in any
aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height it might be a
lifesaver. So, what is the height for various permutations of airspeed,
flap, weight, prop status etc?
I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts, flaps up
(trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a personal
rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back is worth
deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
What other views/data has anyone got?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp Fixed
pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage flaps
down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that would be
required for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly
result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height will
know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the only
safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be
possible if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in shrub
or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would walk
away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney -
(Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk"William Harrison
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it
highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who did
my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a safe
180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I practised a
few times. I think I'll practise a few more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200 and
300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130
pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a large
golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is between the
runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he had
an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead. Can
that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical
cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <HYPERLINK
"mailto:fklein@orcasonline.com"fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
"mailto:gdh@isp.com"gdh@isp.com>
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
--
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Turning Stall |
Andrew,
You wrote:
"I have learned from experience that stall characteristics are very
specific to each airframe. There are only generic similarities across
the same model. Even in the ubiquitous Cessna 172, the stall
characteristics may appear to be consistent during an imminent stall,
but if you push it deeper into a stall, or an uncoordinated stall, the
characteristics are not at all similar. On an experimental
construction, I would expect these variations to be more drastic than
in production models.
As soon as I heard about this accident, I looked at the google
satellite map of Livermore airport and wondered why he was tempted to
make a 180. If the golf course had people in it that might be one
reason, but it looks like there are quite a few cow pastures slightly
left of course, and some shallow lakes (reservoirs?) further left."
Yes, that's why I limited my comments to only those aircraft in which I had actually
performed the various turning stalls. And I explicitly stated that none
of them had laminar flow airfoil sections. Those aircraft which I had tested
where simple, basic and very well behaved in most situations. (Don't secondary
stall an older C-150 with the landing light in the wing unless you have lots
of altitude. It snaps to an instant spin.) Even the simplest and nicest have
a nasty stall in a slipping turn. Laminar flow sections can be notorious in
their stall characteristics. That is also why I will be investigating the stall
characteristics of N914XL in straight and level, coordinated and uncoordinated
turns, clean and dirty, various weights and CGs, etc. with plenty of altitude
and in tiny increments to look for behavior defining the edges of the flight
envelope.
I too am baffled as to why a pilot with that level of experience would try to turn
back when suitable areas to put it down are available within 30 degrees of
the departure heading. All I can think of is that he had practiced the 180 turn
to see how much altitude would be lost and had established such a turn-capable
altitude. (That attitude seems too be all too prevalent in some comments)
Then when the engine quit, he was above that altitude so he turned. Unfortunately,
he did not account for the extra weight of the passenger or he did not
account for the fact that the turn is in actuality much greater than 180 or
different density altitude or some other factor we don't know.
I try to learn from every accident. Learning from Europa accidents has been too
frequent recently. My heart goes out to all those who have been affected by
the latest accidents.
Good building and great, SAFE, flying,
Bob Borger
Message 22
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| Subject: | Europa Incident - 180 turns |
Raimo,
When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that
includes
a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and accidents plus
a
number of related incidents that have significance to our aircraft type
e.g
composite construction issues.
Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec.
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo
Toivio
Sent: 19 June 2007 15:37
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
When I practised Europa emergency landings
with standing prop my height was 1000 feet
from the ground when in downwind.
I keeped it clean until over landing place in final.
So I could be sure to reach estimated target.
Any lower and I would not feel comfortable.
Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:possibletodo@yahoo.com"Paul Boulet
"mailto:europa-list@matronics.com"europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Hi all;
Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180 with
your
prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I owned a Cessna
172
for many years and at altitude practiced the turn back. You actually
turn
more than 180 degrees- something like 210 if I recall so that you can
fly
back to the runway. Then you have to turn 30 degrees in opposite
direction
to line back up with r-way centerline. In my Cessna I recall losing
some
800 feet of altitude- possibly more (it's been awhile). Upon takeoff I
would call out "decision height" even if no one else was listening as a
reminder of whether I would control crash straight ahead... or turn back
to
r-way.
Keep the shiny side up;
Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California
Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
and try to save the plane and make a day.
If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
goes well, you will fly again in the same day
(after refueling or what so ever).
What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
Break your baby or take a risk of death.
Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
There are let=B4s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
5% ? 10% ?
I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms.
Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety
officer?
What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75 knots
MINIMUM.
in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against gusts
and
failures.
When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3
feets.
Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing
speed is
75 knots.
With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000 feet.
I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with black
rubber
and was screaming.
Regards, Raimo
============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful
landings
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
HYPERLINK "mailto:raimo.toivio@rwm.fi"raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
HYPERLINK "http://www.rwm.fi/"www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk"William
Harrison
"mailto:europa-list@matronics.com"europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Carl,
Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in any
aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height it might
be a
lifesaver. So, what is the height for various permutations of airspeed,
flap, weight, prop status etc?
I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts, flaps
up
(trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a
personal
rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back is worth
deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
What other views/data has anyone got?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp
Fixed
pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage
flaps
down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that
would be
required for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly
result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height
will
know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the
only
safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be
possible if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in
shrub
or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would
walk
away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney -
(Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk"William
Harrison
"mailto:europa-list@matronics.com"europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it
highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who
did
my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a
safe
180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I
practised a
few times. I think I'll practise a few more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200
and
300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130
pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a
large
golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is between
the
runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he
had
an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead.
Can
that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical
cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <HYPERLINK
"mailto:fklein@orcasonline.com"fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
"mailto:gdh@isp.com"gdh@isp.com>
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
--
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15:02
18/06/2007
15:02
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
Brian and Mike (G)
Any idea when we can expect the full AAIB report on the UK accident?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 18:15, Brian Davies wrote:
> Raimo,
>
> When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that
> includes a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and
> accidents plus a number of related incidents that have significance
> to our aircraft type e.g composite construction issues.
>
> Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec.
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
> Sent: 19 June 2007 15:37
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
> When I practised Europa emergency landings
> with standing prop my height was 1000 feet
> from the ground when in downwind.
>
> I keeped it clean until over landing place in final.
> So I could be sure to reach estimated target.
>
> Any lower and I would not feel comfortable.
>
> Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Boulet
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
> Hi all;
> Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180
> with your prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I
> owned a Cessna 172 for many years and at altitude practiced the
> turn back. You actually turn more than 180 degrees- something like
> 210 if I recall so that you can fly back to the runway. Then you
> have to turn 30 degrees in opposite direction to line back up with
> r-way centerline. In my Cessna I recall losing some 800 feet of
> altitude- possibly more (it's been awhile). Upon takeoff I would
> call out "decision height" even if no one else was listening as a
> reminder of whether I would control crash straight ahead... or turn
> back to r-way.
>
> Keep the shiny side up;
>
> Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California
>
> Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
> It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
> and try to save the plane and make a day.
>
> If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
> but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
>
> If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
> goes well, you will fly again in the same day
> (after refueling or what so ever).
>
> What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
> Break your baby or take a risk of death.
>
> Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
> below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
> not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
>
> After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
> I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
> This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
>
> There are let=B4s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
> How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
> 5% ? 10% ?
>
> I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms.
> Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety
> officer?
>
> What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
> What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
>
> This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75
> knots MINIMUM.
> in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against
> gusts and failures.
> When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3
> feets.
> Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing
> speed is 75 knots.
> With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000
> feet.
>
> I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
> windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
> Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
> Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with
> black rubber and was screaming.
>
> Regards, Raimo
> ============
>
> Raimo M W Toivio
>
> OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful
> landings
> OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
> OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
>
> 37500 Lempaala
> Finland
> tel + 358 3 3753 777
> fax + 358 3 3753 100
> gsm + 358 40 590 1450
>
> raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
> www.rwm.fi
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: William Harrison
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
> Carl,
>
> Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in
> any aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height
> it might be a lifesaver. So, what is the height for various
> permutations of airspeed, flap, weight, prop status etc?
>
> I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts,
> flaps up (trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
>
> When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a
> personal rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn
> back is worth deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
>
> What other views/data has anyone got?
>
> Willie
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
>
>> Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the
>> 80hp Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots
>> at this stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500
>> feet) .The steep bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn
>> at such a height would almost certainly result the inboard wing
>> stalling with inevitable results.
>>
>> Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low
>> height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under
>> 500 feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead -
>> sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible if the field is large
>> enough.
>>
>> While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even
>> in shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa
>> crash would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three
>> years ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants
>> survived with few injuries.
>>
>> Carl Pattinson
>> G-LABS
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: William Harrison
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>>
>> Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident.
>> However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway.
>> John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/
>> showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much
>> lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll
>> practise a few more times.
>>
>> The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was
>> between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
>>
>> Willie
>>
>>
>> On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
>>
>>> A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce
>>> c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once
>>> a week.
>>>
>>> He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there
>>> is a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The
>>> crash site is between the runway and the golf course.
>>>
>>> It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would
>>> think if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural
>>> emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control
>>> failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>>> Dave and Dale,
>>>
>>> I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
>>> family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to
>>> have had
>>> personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to
>>> share any
>>> information on the accident with the Europa community.
>>>
>>> Fred
>>>
>>> >
>>> > After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who
>>> flies
>>> > out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me
>>> it was,
>>> > in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
>>> > terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
>>> > terrible loss.
>>> > Dale Hetrick
>>>
>>> On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
>>>
>>> > Mike,
>>> >
>>> > Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at
>>> the time
>>> > of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
>>> > about a year ago:
>>> >
>>> > The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local
>>> boat
>>> > dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the
>>> pump is
>>> > Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the
>>> wing
>>> > tie bar for restraint.
>>> >
>>> > I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
>>> > after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the
>>> airplane
>>> > at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't
>>> know,
>>> > nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he
>>> used to
>>> > hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
>>> > accident might not be representative of what is likely to
>>> happen to
>>> > other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have
>>> heard
>>> > of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>>> >
>>> > Dave DeFord
>>> > N135TD
>>>
>>> --
>>> This message has been scanned for viruses and
>>> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
>>> believed to be clean.
>>>
>>>
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://
>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhref="http://
>>> forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://
>> www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://
>> forums.matronics.com
>> - The Europa-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-
>> space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-
>> List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-
>> converted-space"> --> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
>> Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://
>> forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://
> www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://
> forums.matronics.com
> 18/06/2007 15:02
>
> ========================
> ========================
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Turning Stall |
As I'm sure all of us following this tragic thread are... I too have
concerns about these accidents having occurred back to back. My wife
who does not like to fly is asking me why I would want to continue my
adventure. As I have just explained to her these incidences are
completely different and as these friends lost would want us to, we
should all use these to become safer pilots.
As I was turning final at my first Sun-N-Fun in April, I over shot the
turn and had to over correct it with a steeper bank. Had I been slow,
well lets not go there. I was like most caught up in the moment, had an
RV-8 in front of me and a 172 behind. There is no doubt in my mind
that even the most experienced among us (And I'm Not One Of Them) have
the ability to make the wrong decision at that defining moment. I only
know one who was perfect in all his decisions.
For that reason I have followed the advice of my instructor and that is
to keep the speed to where it isn't an issue until I'm on final and
level. Calculating winds, weight, and other issues should be for
another time and not at the instance of when that moment hits as we are
all human. As another Europa flyer showed me once, flaps coming down
are reserved for final and seem to work well that way.
On take off going back was always forbidden in my training and the
best field in front or sides is the only way to go under 1000 feet.
Many times my instructor pulled the power below that and if I didn't,
he pushed the 150 over to get speed before we looked for a field he
did. Lose power get your speed find a field he always said.
I am very saddened for both of these families and want to offer my own
condolences. I'm sure the ones we lost would now be glad to see us
sharing these Ideas and in the same becoming safer at what we love.
Jeff Roberts
N128LJ
On Jun 19, 2007, at 12:01 PM, Robert Borger wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>
> You wrote:
>
> "I have learned from experience that stall characteristics are very
> specific to each airframe. There are only generic similarities across
> the same model. Even in the ubiquitous Cessna 172, the stall
> characteristics may appear to be consistent during an imminent stall,
> but if you push it deeper into a stall, or an uncoordinated stall, the
> characteristics are not at all similar. On an experimental
> construction, I would expect these variations to be more drastic than
> in production models.
>
>
> As soon as I heard about this accident, I looked at the google
> satellite map of Livermore airport and wondered why he was tempted to
> make a 180. If the golf course had people in it that might be one
> reason, but it looks like there are quite a few cow pastures slightly
> left of course, and some shallow lakes (reservoirs?) further left."
>
>
> Yes, that's why I limited my comments to only those aircraft in which
> I had actually performed the various turning stalls. And I explicitly
> stated that none of them had laminar flow airfoil sections. Those
> aircraft which I had tested where simple, basic and very well behaved
> in most situations. (Don't secondary stall an older C-150 with the
> landing light in the wing unless you have lots of altitude. It snaps
> to an instant spin.) Even the simplest and nicest have a nasty stall
> in a slipping turn. Laminar flow sections can be notorious in their
> stall characteristics. That is also why I will be investigating the
> stall characteristics of N914XL in straight and level, coordinated
> and uncoordinated turns, clean and dirty, various weights and CGs,
> etc. with plenty of altitude and in tiny increments to look for
> behavior defining the edges of the flight envelope.
>
>
> I too am baffled as to why a pilot with that level of experience would
> try to turn back when suitable areas to put it down are available
> within 30 degrees of the departure heading. All I can think of is
> that he had practiced the 180 turn to see how much altitude would be
> lost and had established such a turn-capable altitude. (That attitude
> seems too be all too prevalent in some comments) Then when the engine
> quit, he was above that altitude so he turned. Unfortunately, he did
> not account for the extra weight of the passenger or he did not
> account for the fact that the turn is in actuality much greater than
> 180 or different density altitude or some other factor we don't know.
>
> I try to learn from every accident. Learning from Europa accidents
> has been too frequent recently. My heart goes out to all those who
> have been affected by the latest accidents.
>
> Good building and great, SAFE, flying,
> Bob Borger
>
>
Jeff
Eagleville Marketing Group / EMG
488 Beasley RD.
Eagleville TN 37060
615-355-7575 Office
615-406-8651 Cell
615-534-1082 Fax
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Paul's funeral |
Laura,
Thank you for another thoughtful and informative post.
I very much admire your grace under such duress, an attribute which I'm
sure will continue to serve you on this adventure we call life.
Fred
On Tuesday, June 19, 2007, at 08:03 AM, Laura Farmer wrote:
> Just a quick note to thank all of you who made such an effort to come
> to Paul's funeral last week. I know he would have been so pleased to
> see so many of his "flying" friends there. Thank you also for making
> the effort to speak to myself and his family, both on Friday and at
> William's funeral yesterday, you have all been lovely. As I said
> before, he always wanted me to be involved in his passion, we had
> plans for much more flying this year, but just by communicating with
> you I feel I am doing my best for him. We laid some of his ashes to
> rest today, on a hilltop above his hometown of Tredegar, where quite a
> few planes fly overhead. The rest, as some of you will know, we would
> like to have scattered from a plane of some kind over his favourite
> hills nearby. As soon as I have confirmed this with his parents I will
> be in touch to arrange this.
> As for the ongoing AAIB investigation, I'm sure the PFA will be
> passing on what findings they hear to yourselves, and I appreciate
> that these are possibly even more important to you than they are to
> us, as, although we want to know eventually, nothing will bring Paul
> or William back.
>
> Many Thanks again,
>
> Laura Farmer
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| Subject: | Europa Incident - 180 turns |
Willie
Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the PFA, told me last Friday that
the
AAIB were unlikely to publish anything soon, when I asked that specific
question.
AAIB reports normally take many months. For example, the report on the
crash of N8027U at Kemble on 25th March 2005 was published in early
2006.
The AAIB do, however, keep in close touch with the regulatory and
airworthiness authorities and provide them with preliminary information
as
to the likely cause, especially where there is preventative action such
as
inspection, change of operating/handling instructions or potential
modifications which may improve safety.
Regards
Mike
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Harrison
Sent: 19 June 2007 18:59
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Brian and Mike (G)
Any idea when we can expect the full AAIB report on the UK accident?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 18:15, Brian Davies wrote:
Raimo,
When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that
includes
a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and accidents plus
a
number of related incidents that have significance to our aircraft type
e.g
composite construction issues.
Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec.
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo
Toivio
Sent: 19 June 2007 15:37
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
When I practised Europa emergency landings
with standing prop my height was 1000 feet
from the ground when in downwind.
I keeped it clean until over landing place in final.
So I could be sure to reach estimated target.
Any lower and I would not feel comfortable.
Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:possibletodo@yahoo.com> Paul Boulet
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Hi all;
Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180 with
your
prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I owned a Cessna
172
for many years and at altitude practiced the turn back. You actually
turn
more than 180 degrees- something like 210 if I recall so that you can
fly
back to the runway. Then you have to turn 30 degrees in opposite
direction
to line back up with r-way centerline. In my Cessna I recall losing
some
800 feet of altitude- possibly more (it's been awhile). Upon takeoff I
would call out "decision height" even if no one else was listening as a
reminder of whether I would control crash straight ahead... or turn back
to
r-way.
Keep the shiny side up;
Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California
Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
and try to save the plane and make a day.
If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
goes well, you will fly again in the same day
(after refueling or what so ever).
What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
Break your baby or take a risk of death.
Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
There are let=B4s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
5% ? 10% ?
I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms.
Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety
officer?
What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75 knots
MINIMUM.
in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against gusts
and
failures.
When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3
feets.
Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing
speed is
75 knots.
With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000 feet.
I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with black
rubber
and was screaming.
Regards, Raimo
============
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful
landings
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
<mailto:raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
<http://www.rwm.fi/> www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk> William Harrison
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Carl,
Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in any
aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height it might
be a
lifesaver. So, what is the height for various permutations of airspeed,
flap, weight, prop status etc?
I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts, flaps
up
(trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a
personal
rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back is worth
deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
What other views/data has anyone got?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp
Fixed
pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage
flaps
down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that
would be
required for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly
result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height
will
know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the
only
safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be
possible if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in
shrub
or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would
walk
away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney -
(Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk> William Harrison
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it
highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who
did
my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a
safe
180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I
practised a
few times. I think I'll practise a few more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200
and
300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130
pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a
large
golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is between
the
runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he
had
an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead.
Can
that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical
cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein < <mailto:fklein@orcasonline.com>
fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
gdh@isp.com>
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
Carl, You may have a trigear which makes some difference to my thoughts on
this question, which are for what they are worth that it makes sense to get
the flaps up as soon as you have reasonable speed (for me 60kts). In my mono
I can climb at probably four times the rate when flaps are up compared with
flaps down, so that the time that I spend in that awkward height band where
you can only land ahead (even if you don't like any of what's ahead) is
drastically reduced. Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp Fixed
pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage flaps
down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that would be
required for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly
result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable results.
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height will
know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the only
safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be
possible if the field is large enough.
While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in shrub
or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would walk
away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney -
(Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few injuries.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it
highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who did
my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a safe
180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I practised a
few times. I think I'll practise a few more times.
The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200
and 300 feet when it turned back.
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130
pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week.
He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a
large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is
between the runway and the golf course.
It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he
had an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead.
Can that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical
cause? We may never know.
Tom
On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
>
> After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it
was,
> in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> terrible loss.
> Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the
time
> of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> about a year ago:
>
> The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> tie bar for restraint.
>
> I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the
airplane
> at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used
to
> hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
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| Subject: | 180 degree turn back |
Hi everyone! Its not often Im moved to write here I dont have any technical skills
to offer (I just very gratefully make use of other peoples knowledge by
reading this forum!)
However, regarding this 180 degree turning back issue Im absolutely appalled at
some of the comments Im reading here.
I cant say this loudly enough or type it big enough: !!!DO NOT TURN BACK!!!
Its a killer. It always has been and always will be. Theres no big mystery about
it the SAFEST option will always be to land somewhere thats reasonably in
front of you.
Thats it said really; the rest of this message is just supporting material. Sure,
landing ahead may well result in damage to the plane. But with a little skill
and a little luck you should come away unscathed, and maybe the plane will
too. Depends on the local situation. This is far far better than entering
the roulette wheel of turning back, from which the consequences of losing.well
we know that dont we?
Lets look at Mr Average (me, you, all of us) in a worse case scenario. Climbing
out at 60 kts - flaps still down (high drag) nose well up cos its a nice powerful
plane with the latest prop, when the unthinkable happens at say 500 feet
and totally unexpectedly the engine stops. By the time weve reacted to it
the speed will have dropped to 55 kts or probably less. Then the penny drops
and we smartly poke the stick forward and the nose thankfully starts to go down.
Speed will still be lost as the nose is going down until some sort of gliding
attitude is attained; only then will the speed loss trend be halted. If
youre a switched on cookie and you reacted well to the surprise the speed will
now be steady at about 50 kts but a lot less if youre not so sharp it might
be 40 kts or less. Remember, nose high and power off rate of speed loss will
be tremendous. What speed should we be aiming for in the subsequent glide?
I dont know 60 kts seems a reasonable
safe approach and landing speed. More if you need to manoeuvre significantly.
To increase speed in order to obtain a safe gliding speed with the engine
off, (and especially if the flaps are down) will need a much lower nose attitude
lower than we would EVER use in normal circumstances and will use up a very
great deal of height probably most of your original 500 feet. Just to get
the plane flying safely again. Still going to turn back?? I promise you you
will not make it!!
The first golden rule is to get the bl**dy nose well down, keep it well down and
monitor the speed carefully before any sort of manoeuvring is attempted. In
the worse type of critical situation you can still achieve a lot with the plane
under good control. If you lose control by not achieving and maintaining a
safe speed everything will be lost.
Incidently, this entire posting is not aimed at the Europa. Its relevant to every
aeroplane there is. Were fortunate with the Europa in that we are slightly
better off than many other planes because its such a great design with super
easy handling and does have some degree of glide performance which might help
reach a landing/ controlled crash site that many other planes wouldnt have the
legs to reach. All aeroplanes glide like bricks, the Europa is just a slightly
more streamlined brick. The Europa will stall and spin if badly handled,
say in an unwise and badly managed turn back. Its only an aeroplane after all
and all aeroplanes will stall and spin, at least every one Ive ever flown.
Just a few comments on postings Ive read recently: First the most serious:
Someone wrote that during their conversion training they were advised and demonstrated
(BY A PFA COACH for goodness sake!!) that a turn back is possible in the
Europa from 300 feet. If people are being taught things like this then it
is of no surprise at all to me that these sorts of accidents are still happening
as they have been for nearly 100 years. I dont know the person who advocates
this practise and I dont really want to, but I feel this sort of advice has
no place in modern day coaching. The person who wrote this post went on to
say he intends to practise the manoeuvre again. PLEASE DONT. It sounds most
dangerous. Firstly, heaven forbid, you might be tempted to attempt it for real,
secondly just doing it under controlled simulated conditions sounds fraught
with danger. It would be a real shame to become a statistic trying to practise
this dangerous exercise. JUST LAND AHEAD!
A real engine failure after take off will be totally unexpected and will place
even the most experienced pilot ever in a totally alien environment with a huge
workload. There will be a fraction of the normal human resources available
to control the plane thats why any action taken must be kept as simple as possible.
Incidently, pilot experience does not necessarily seem to be a factor.
In fact a newly qualified PPL maybe "safer" because hopefully he will rely on
his recent training and put the thing down straight ahead. An "old hand" may
be more likely to "think" he is able to turn back where in reality - he can't.
Ive read discussion about how individual aircraft of the same design (ie the Europa)
have different stall/ spin characteristics from others of the same mark.
Maybe, in fact quite probably, but irrelevant to this turn back discussion.
Throughout any manoeuvring near the ground, whether during an unwise turn back
or whatever you should be nowhere near stalling!! Thats just basic skill and
handling. If the difference between one variant or another determines the possible
successful outcome or otherwise of a situation DONT GO THERE!! Fly the
aircraft properly; well balanced and at a safe speed and you will stay safe.
People talk about slipping or skidding turns near the stall. DO NOT DO THIS
NEAR THE GROUND. If you cannot manoeuvre near the ground without slipping or
skidding and/or stalling then dont do it youve guessed it . Land ahead!!
Ive read about Europa fuel tanks and their survivability. I dont know any of the
technical bits but it seems to me to be an excellent, strong and well - positioned
design. Ive flown a Piper Pawnee with the fuel tank sandwiched between
the engine and the pilot, just ready for the engine to be pushed back into the
tank. The Super Cub has the left wing tank header tank just above your toes.
Ive flown the Falke motorglider with the tank just behind your head! Its got
to go somewhere and the Europa seems to be at least as good as any of those!
If an aircraft is to sadly stall/ spin into the ground then I dont think any
type of fuel tank will survive this. Dont worry about the tank concentrate
on flying safely instead and youll be fine!
The Europa is a fine aircraft but it will bite back if mis-handled just like any
other aircraft will. We must all strive to be safe and sensible and try not
to let a plane bite us.
Best wishes, sorry to ramble on got carried away!
Jon Smith
G-TERN
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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| Subject: | Re: 180 degree turn back |
Im going to piggy-back on Jon's comments. I have over 12K+ hours and over half
of those were as an instructor in both airplanes and helicopters. I taught all
my primary students the 180 turn back to the runway, but not the 180 that most
of you are thinking of.
the first turn has to be into the wind. It has to be a turn of about 45 degrees
then back to opposite way to get line-up with the runway.
I good friend was teaching at the Livermore airport a couple of years ago and
almost made it back after the engine failed on takeoff in a KCAB. He hit between
the runways. Both he and his student walked away. It takes a lot of practice
to do this maneuver successfully. Just before my student would take their
check ride Id do one just after doing an engine out emergency to a field, but
at altitude. It was always a hard maneuver to perform by the student. If
you dont practice it, then dont try and turn back to the field.
When I give CFI check rides it is one maneuver I give each check ride. There
is not a correct way to do it. I want to see if the applicant uses good judgment.
If there elect to go straight ahead then I think he is showing good judgment.
If the elect to go back and has enough altitude and lines up with the
runway then they are using good judgment.
When I get my Eupora built and flying it is one maneuver that I will do during
the testing phase to find out the correct bank angles and the correct speed.
These will all be done at altitude. Hopefully, I will never have to do one
for real.
I'm in class right now and in the classroom the use of the airplane parachute
has come up. A number of people flying the simulator did not pull it when they
iced up, ran out of gas, and the WX was zero-zero. You will do what you have
practiced. Most of us have not practiced pulling a parachute in an emergency,
so in a real emergency we would not think of it.
I think all of us think about some ot the things that might happen, but how many
take the time to practice what we would do in those emergencies.
Rick Stockton
A210 XS tri
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| Subject: | Re: 180 degree turn back |
Jon - all.
Hear -hear, wise words Jon! Your statements are all correct.
One thing though: It's a good practice to build up a little more speed on
initial climb. After lift-off fly level to about 75 kts, then start your
climb. Then you have gotten yourself some margins for unexpected happenings.
OK - your initial climbs want be as spectacular as you may like, but it's a
small price to pay!!!
Best wishes
Hans
----- Original Message -----
From: "JonSmith" <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:10 PM
Subject: Europa-List: 180 degree turn back
> <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi everyone! It's not often I'm moved to write here - I don't have any
> technical skills to offer (I just very gratefully make use of other
> people's knowledge by reading this forum!)
>
> However, regarding this "180 degree turning back" issue I'm absolutely
> appalled at some of the comments I'm reading here.
>
> I can't say this loudly enough - or type it big enough: !!!DO NOT TURN
> BACK!!! It's a killer. It always has been and always will be. There's
> no big mystery about it - the SAFEST option will always be to land
> somewhere that's reasonably in front of you.
>
> That's it said really; the rest of this message is just supporting
> material. Sure, landing ahead may well result in damage to the plane.
> But with a little skill and a little luck you should come away unscathed,
> and maybe the plane will too. Depends on the local situation. This is
> far far better than entering the roulette wheel of turning back, from
> which the consequences of losing...well we know that don't we?
>
> Let's look at Mr Average (me, you, all of us) in a worse case scenario.
> Climbing out at 60 kts - flaps still down (high drag) - nose well up cos
> it's a nice powerful plane with the latest prop, when the unthinkable
> happens - at say 500 feet and totally unexpectedly the engine stops. By
> the time we've reacted to it the speed will have dropped to 55 kts or
> probably less. Then the penny drops and we smartly poke the stick forward
> and the nose thankfully starts to go down. Speed will still be lost as
> the nose is going down until some sort of gliding attitude is attained;
> only then will the speed loss trend be halted. If you're a "switched on
> cookie" and you reacted well to the surprise the speed will now be steady
> at about 50 kts - but a lot less if you're not so sharp - it might be 40
> kts or less. Remember, nose high and power off - rate of speed loss will
> be tremendous. What speed should we be aiming for in the subsequent
> glide? I don't know - 60 kts seems a reasonable
> safe approach and landing speed. More if you need to manoeuvre
> significantly. To increase speed in order to obtain a safe gliding speed
> with the engine off, (and especially if the flaps are down) will need a
> much lower nose attitude - lower than we would EVER use in normal
> circumstances and will use up a very great deal of height - probably most
> of your original 500 feet. Just to get the plane flying safely again.
> Still going to turn back?? I promise you - you will not make it!!
>
> The first golden rule is to get the bl**dy nose well down, keep it well
> down and monitor the speed carefully before any sort of manoeuvring is
> attempted. In the worse type of critical situation you can still achieve
> a lot with the plane under good control. If you lose control by not
> achieving and maintaining a safe speed everything will be lost.
>
> Incidently, this entire posting is not aimed at the Europa. It's relevant
> to every aeroplane there is. We're fortunate with the Europa in that we
> are slightly better off than many other planes because it's such a great
> design with super easy handling and does have some degree of glide
> performance which might help reach a landing/ controlled crash site that
> many other planes wouldn't have the legs to reach. All aeroplanes glide
> like bricks, the Europa is just a slightly more streamlined brick. The
> Europa will stall and spin if badly handled, say in an unwise and badly
> managed turn back. It's only an aeroplane after all and all aeroplanes
> will stall and spin, at least every one I've ever flown.
>
> Just a few comments on postings I've read recently: First the most
> serious:
> Someone wrote that during their conversion training they were advised and
> demonstrated (BY A PFA COACH for goodness sake!!) that a turn back is
> possible in the Europa from 300 feet. If people are being taught things
> like this then it is of no surprise at all to me that these sorts of
> accidents are still happening - as they have been for nearly 100 years. I
> don't know the person who advocates this practise and I don't really want
> to, but I feel this sort of advice has no place in modern day coaching.
> The person who wrote this post went on to say he intends to practise the
> manoeuvre again. PLEASE DON'T. It sounds most dangerous. Firstly,
> heaven forbid, you might be tempted to attempt it for real, secondly just
> doing it under controlled simulated conditions sounds fraught with danger.
> It would be a real shame to become a statistic trying to practise this
> dangerous exercise. JUST LAND AHEAD!
>
> A real engine failure after take off will be totally unexpected and will
> place even the most experienced pilot ever in a totally alien environment
> with a huge workload. There will be a fraction of the normal human
> resources available to control the plane - that's why any action taken
> must be kept as simple as possible. Incidently, pilot experience does not
> necessarily seem to be a factor. In fact a newly qualified PPL maybe
> "safer" because hopefully he will rely on his recent training and put the
> thing down straight ahead. An "old hand" may be more likely to "think" he
> is able to turn back where in reality - he can't.
>
> I've read discussion about how individual aircraft of the same design (ie
> the Europa) have different stall/ spin characteristics from others of the
> same mark. Maybe, in fact quite probably, but irrelevant to this "turn
> back" discussion. Throughout any manoeuvring near the ground, whether
> during an unwise turn back or whatever you should be nowhere near
> stalling!! That's just basic skill and handling. If the difference
> between one variant or another determines the possible successful outcome
> or otherwise of a situation - DON'T GO THERE!! Fly the aircraft properly;
> well balanced and at a safe speed and you will stay safe. People talk
> about slipping or skidding turns near the stall. DO NOT DO THIS NEAR THE
> GROUND. If you cannot manoeuvre near the ground without slipping or
> skidding and/or stalling then don't do it - you've guessed it .. Land
> ahead!!
>
> I've read about Europa fuel tanks and their survivability. I don't know
> any of the technical bits but it seems to me to be an excellent, strong
> and well - positioned design. I've flown a Piper Pawnee with the fuel tank
> sandwiched between the engine and the pilot, just ready for the engine to
> be pushed back into the tank. The Super Cub has the left wing tank header
> tank just above your toes. I've flown the Falke motorglider with the tank
> just behind your head! It's got to go somewhere and the Europa seems to
> be at least as good as any of those! If an aircraft is to sadly stall/
> spin into the ground then I don't think any type of fuel tank will survive
> this. Don't worry about the tank - concentrate on flying safely instead
> and you'll be fine!
>
> The Europa is a fine aircraft but it will bite back if mis-handled- just
> like any other aircraft will. We must all strive to be safe and sensible
> and try not to let a plane bite us.
>
> Best wishes, sorry to ramble on - got carried away!
> Jon Smith
> G-TERN
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns |
Hi Europians,
As a europa colleague pointed out to me about 180 turns back, last
night.
' Engine failure after take-off; carry on to the hospital or turn back
to the cemetery"
Certainly a phrase to keep in mind when faced with a similar situation.
Tim
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch, 8052
New Zealand
Ph +64 3 3515166
Mobile 021 0640221
ward.t@xtra.co.nz
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: 180 degree turn back |
Jon,
Well said. End of debate.
Tim
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch, 8052
New Zealand
Ph +64 3 3515166
Mobile 021 0640221
ward.t@xtra.co.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "JonSmith" <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 8:10 AM
Subject: Europa-List: 180 degree turn back
> <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi everyone! It's not often I'm moved to write here - I don't have any
> technical skills to offer (I just very gratefully make use of other
> people's knowledge by reading this forum!)
>
> However, regarding this "180 degree turning back" issue I'm absolutely
> appalled at some of the comments I'm reading here.
>
> I can't say this loudly enough - or type it big enough: !!!DO NOT TURN
> BACK!!! It's a killer. It always has been and always will be. There's
> no big mystery about it - the SAFEST option will always be to land
> somewhere that's reasonably in front of you.
>
> That's it said really; the rest of this message is just supporting
> material. Sure, landing ahead may well result in damage to the plane.
> But with a little skill and a little luck you should come away unscathed,
> and maybe the plane will too. Depends on the local situation. This is
> far far better than entering the roulette wheel of turning back, from
> which the consequences of losing...well we know that don't we?
>
> Let's look at Mr Average (me, you, all of us) in a worse case scenario.
> Climbing out at 60 kts - flaps still down (high drag) - nose well up cos
> it's a nice powerful plane with the latest prop, when the unthinkable
> happens - at say 500 feet and totally unexpectedly the engine stops. By
> the time we've reacted to it the speed will have dropped to 55 kts or
> probably less. Then the penny drops and we smartly poke the stick forward
> and the nose thankfully starts to go down. Speed will still be lost as
> the nose is going down until some sort of gliding attitude is attained;
> only then will the speed loss trend be halted. If you're a "switched on
> cookie" and you reacted well to the surprise the speed will now be steady
> at about 50 kts - but a lot less if you're not so sharp - it might be 40
> kts or less. Remember, nose high and power off - rate of speed loss will
> be tremendous. What speed should we be aiming for in the subsequent
> glide? I don't know - 60 kts seems a reasonable
> safe approach and landing speed. More if you need to manoeuvre
> significantly. To increase speed in order to obtain a safe gliding speed
> with the engine off, (and especially if the flaps are down) will need a
> much lower nose attitude - lower than we would EVER use in normal
> circumstances and will use up a very great deal of height - probably most
> of your original 500 feet. Just to get the plane flying safely again.
> Still going to turn back?? I promise you - you will not make it!!
>
> The first golden rule is to get the bl**dy nose well down, keep it well
> down and monitor the speed carefully before any sort of manoeuvring is
> attempted. In the worse type of critical situation you can still achieve
> a lot with the plane under good control. If you lose control by not
> achieving and maintaining a safe speed everything will be lost.
>
> Incidently, this entire posting is not aimed at the Europa. It's relevant
> to every aeroplane there is. We're fortunate with the Europa in that we
> are slightly better off than many other planes because it's such a great
> design with super easy handling and does have some degree of glide
> performance which might help reach a landing/ controlled crash site that
> many other planes wouldn't have the legs to reach. All aeroplanes glide
> like bricks, the Europa is just a slightly more streamlined brick. The
> Europa will stall and spin if badly handled, say in an unwise and badly
> managed turn back. It's only an aeroplane after all and all aeroplanes
> will stall and spin, at least every one I've ever flown.
>
> Just a few comments on postings I've read recently: First the most
> serious:
> Someone wrote that during their conversion training they were advised and
> demonstrated (BY A PFA COACH for goodness sake!!) that a turn back is
> possible in the Europa from 300 feet. If people are being taught things
> like this then it is of no surprise at all to me that these sorts of
> accidents are still happening - as they have been for nearly 100 years. I
> don't know the person who advocates this practise and I don't really want
> to, but I feel this sort of advice has no place in modern day coaching.
> The person who wrote this post went on to say he intends to practise the
> manoeuvre again. PLEASE DON'T. It sounds most dangerous. Firstly,
> heaven forbid, you might be tempted to attempt it for real, secondly just
> doing it under controlled simulated conditions sounds fraught with danger.
> It would be a real shame to become a statistic trying to practise this
> dangerous exercise. JUST LAND AHEAD!
>
> A real engine failure after take off will be totally unexpected and will
> place even the most experienced pilot ever in a totally alien environment
> with a huge workload. There will be a fraction of the normal human
> resources available to control the plane - that's why any action taken
> must be kept as simple as possible. Incidently, pilot experience does not
> necessarily seem to be a factor. In fact a newly qualified PPL maybe
> "safer" because hopefully he will rely on his recent training and put the
> thing down straight ahead. An "old hand" may be more likely to "think" he
> is able to turn back where in reality - he can't.
>
> I've read discussion about how individual aircraft of the same design (ie
> the Europa) have different stall/ spin characteristics from others of the
> same mark. Maybe, in fact quite probably, but irrelevant to this "turn
> back" discussion. Throughout any manoeuvring near the ground, whether
> during an unwise turn back or whatever you should be nowhere near
> stalling!! That's just basic skill and handling. If the difference
> between one variant or another determines the possible successful outcome
> or otherwise of a situation - DON'T GO THERE!! Fly the aircraft properly;
> well balanced and at a safe speed and you will stay safe. People talk
> about slipping or skidding turns near the stall. DO NOT DO THIS NEAR THE
> GROUND. If you cannot manoeuvre near the ground without slipping or
> skidding and/or stalling then don't do it - you've guessed it .. Land
> ahead!!
>
> I've read about Europa fuel tanks and their survivability. I don't know
> any of the technical bits but it seems to me to be an excellent, strong
> and well - positioned design. I've flown a Piper Pawnee with the fuel tank
> sandwiched between the engine and the pilot, just ready for the engine to
> be pushed back into the tank. The Super Cub has the left wing tank header
> tank just above your toes. I've flown the Falke motorglider with the tank
> just behind your head! It's got to go somewhere and the Europa seems to
> be at least as good as any of those! If an aircraft is to sadly stall/
> spin into the ground then I don't think any type of fuel tank will survive
> this. Don't worry about the tank - concentrate on flying safely instead
> and you'll be fine!
>
> The Europa is a fine aircraft but it will bite back if mis-handled- just
> like any other aircraft will. We must all strive to be safe and sensible
> and try not to let a plane bite us.
>
> Best wishes, sorry to ramble on - got carried away!
> Jon Smith
> G-TERN
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Incident |
Fred,
About the only thing remaining will be the accident report and that, I
suspect, will take a long time.
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Klein
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 5:12 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Incident
Dave and Dale,
I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
information on the accident with the Europa community.
Fred
After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it was, in
fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a terrific guy,
former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another terrible loss.
Dale Hetrick
On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
Mike,
Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the
time of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
about a year ago:
The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing tie
bar for restraint.
I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the airplane at
that time. Whether he left them there at all times, I don't know, nor
can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used to hold
them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this accident
might not be representative of what is likely to happen to other Europas
in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard of the accident
say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
Dave DeFord
N135TD
--> http://forums.matronics.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
6/17/2007 8:23 AM
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Incident |
Dale,
Any chance of getting confirmation of whether or not the non-standard
fuel tanks were on board or back in the garage?
Fred
On Tuesday, June 19, 2007, at 04:49 PM, D.Hetrick wrote:
> Fred,
> About the only thing remaining will be the accident report and that, I
> suspect, will take a long time.
> Dale
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: 180 degree turn back |
Just my 2 cents worth on this issue:
During my checkout in a Piper Lance, my instructor worked with me on power-off
180 approaches. Abeam the numbers on downwind at 1,000 feet, the power came off.
The Lance glides like a brick, and it took me many attempts and a deft touch
to get the airplane anywhere near the runway.
This experience gave me a HEALTHY respect for trying a 180 with an engine failure.
If a 1,000 foot margin and perfect downwind setup made for a difficult task
when I knew I could put power back in, I cannot imagine trying this under stress
knowing I had to get it right the first time.
I always use Google Earth to check out an unfamiliar airport and look for nearby
golf courses or fields to use in the event of a low altitude engine failure.
At my home field (KLZU), Georgia Highway 316 forms an almost extended centerline
to Runway 7. Several people have landed on the highway after engine failure
on a Runway 7 takeoff and they are now members of the "316 Club."
I am sorry to hear about this accident, and hope that we can all learn from it.
George Powell
Lawrenceville, GA
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: 180 degree turn back |
In a message dated 6/19/2007 6:22:12 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
georgepowell@hotmail.com writes:
During my checkout in a Piper Lance, my instructor worked with me on
power-off 180 approaches. Abeam the numbers on downwind at 1,000 feet, the power
came off. The Lance glides like a brick, and it took me many attempts and a
deft touch to get the airplane anywhere near the runway.
This is an item that I always worry about.....whenever I fly the pattern, I
was taught during my tail dragger training by Amelia Reid, that the distance
my downwind leg is away from the runway is what I feel is the proper "engine
out gliding" distance. According to her, if you are in your proper pattern,
then if you should lose you engine, you can glide to the runway. I have found
too many pilots fly the same ground point references now matter what type of
plane they fly. If the Europa glides like a streamlined brick, then I might
tend to accept a further downwind leg distance from the runway. But if I flew
a real brick, then I would tend to stay much closer to the runway. Am I
missing something?
So to that end, can I put a few questions to those flying tri gear and
conventional gear?
1) Monos have no choice about flaps on takeoff....what is the norm for the
other two types?
2) How about slips to lose any extra speed of height? Loved doing them in
Cessnas...seemed very stable....the Europa?
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: 180 degree turn back |
Duane, I feel strongly as you do that you should fly patterns like you could
lose power at any time. In the Army we were taught to cut the throttle
downwind opposite the touch down point and only used a slight nudge of
throttle on base leg to "clear" the engine.
At busy airports one too often finds long patterns with the need to carry
power on final in order to reach the touch down point.
Tom Friedland
On 6/19/07, DuaneFamly@aol.com <DuaneFamly@aol.com> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/19/2007 6:22:12 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> georgepowell@hotmail.com writes:
>
> During my checkout in a Piper Lance, my instructor worked with me on
> power-off 180 approaches. Abeam the numbers on downwind at 1,000 feet, the
> power came off. The Lance glides like a brick, and it took me many attempts
> and a deft touch to get the airplane anywhere near the runway.
>
> This is an item that I always worry about.....whenever I fly the pattern,
> I was taught during my tail dragger training by Amelia Reid, that the
> distance my downwind leg is away from the runway is what I feel is the
> proper "engine out gliding" distance. According to her, if you are in your
> proper pattern, then if you should lose you engine, you can glide to the
> runway. I have found too many pilots fly the same ground point references
> now matter what type of plane they fly. If the Europa glides like a
> streamlined brick, then I might tend to accept a further downwind leg
> distance from the runway. But if I flew a real brick, then I would tend to
> stay much closer to the runway. Am I missing something?
>
> So to that end, can I put a few questions to those flying tri gear and
> conventional gear?
> 1) Monos have no choice about flaps on takeoff....what is the norm for the
> other two types?
> 2) How about slips to lose any extra speed of height? Loved doing them in
> Cessnas...seemed very stable....the Europa?
>
> Mike Duane A207A
> Redding, California
> XS Conventional Gear
> Jabiru 3300
> Sensenich R64Z N
> Ground Adjustable Prop
>
>
> ------------------------------
> See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
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