---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/20/07: 53 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:14 AM - When to retract the flaps? (Carl Pattinson) 2. 12:45 AM - Re: 180 degree turn back (William Williams Wynne) 3. 01:23 AM - Re: 180 degree turn back (flyingphil2) 4. 02:51 AM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (Raimo Toivio) 5. 03:31 AM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (Alan Burrows) 6. 04:42 AM - ENGINE FAILURE AFTER TAKE-OFF (van eldik) 7. 04:42 AM - ENGINE FAILURE AFTER TAKE-OFF (van eldik) 8. 06:32 AM - Glider winch launching and decision making (Mark Burton) 9. 06:45 AM - 180 Turns (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 10. 07:26 AM - Re: Europa Incident (Finklea) 11. 07:54 AM - Re: 180 Turns (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 12. 07:54 AM - Re: 180 turns (rampil) 13. 08:10 AM - Re. 180 degree turn back (JonSmith) 14. 08:17 AM - Re: Europa Incident (Finklea) 15. 08:56 AM - Re: Re: Europa Incident (Jeremy Davey) 16. 08:59 AM - Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (Mike Gregory) 17. 09:15 AM - Re: Glider winch launching and decision making (flyingphil2) 18. 10:17 AM - torque tube backlash specs (William Harrison) 19. 11:15 AM - light relief (Richard Iddon) 20. 11:56 AM - Re: Glider winch launching and decision making (Carl Pattinson) 21. 12:02 PM - Re: When to retract the flaps? (Mike Parkin) 22. 12:26 PM - Re: When to retract the flaps? (David Joyce) 23. 12:29 PM - Re: 180 Turns (David Joyce) 24. 12:49 PM - When to extend the flaps (Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com) 25. 01:46 PM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (Mike Gamble) 26. 01:54 PM - Re: When to retract the flaps? (Raimo Toivio) 27. 02:07 PM - Re: When to retract the flaps? (Carl Pattinson) 28. 02:25 PM - Re: When to retract the flaps? (Graham Singleton) 29. 02:25 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (Carl Pattinson) 30. 02:35 PM - Re: Re: 180 turns (Graham Singleton) 31. 02:40 PM - Europa pip-pin recess (Steve Pitt) 32. 02:40 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (Graham Singleton) 33. 03:00 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (Brian Davies) 34. 03:37 PM - Re: Re: 180 turns (William Daniell) 35. 03:38 PM - Mods...Mods...Mods..! (R.C.Harrison) 36. 03:41 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (William Daniell) 37. 03:41 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (Jeremy Davey) 38. 05:07 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (Graham Singleton) 39. 05:10 PM - Re: Re: 180 turns (Graham Singleton) 40. 06:08 PM - Europa incident - 180 turns (Fergus Kyle) 41. 06:24 PM - Re: Re: 180 turns (Andrew Sarangan) 42. 08:26 PM - Re: 180 degree turn back (John & Paddy Wigney) 43. 08:48 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (Tim Ward) 44. 09:23 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS () 45. 09:53 PM - Tailplane torque tube pip pins (Fred Klein) 46. 10:02 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (Fred Klein) 47. 10:26 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS () 48. 10:26 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS () 49. 10:53 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (nigel charles) 50. 11:04 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (nigel charles) 51. 11:17 PM - Re: Re: 180 turns (R.C.Harrison) 52. 11:38 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (Fred Klein) 53. 11:41 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (R.C.Harrison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:50 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: When to retract the flaps? Not sure what led you to believe we have a Trigear. G-LABS is one of the original Classic monos - Kit 49. In fact we have Ivan Shaws original Rotax 912 engine out of G-YURO. You could call it son of YURO !!! As regards the flaps question I totally agree that you need to get rid of as much drag as possible as soon as possible. However a full retraction of the flaps will cause the aircraft to sink (anything up to 100ft). I was warned by a very experienced pilot that this was not a clever thing to do especially at 200ft. The other problem with retracting early (especially if you compromise and only half retract) is that should the engine stop, you are likely to forget you retracted and set yourself up for wheels up landing (or crash if applicable). I would say the safest height you should raise the gear is about 300ft and in any event I would rather concentrate on flying the plane and seeing where we are going. As G-LABS is somewhat underpowered I have to keep the nose well down to build up speed (65kts) before commencing the climb. I always assume there is a chance the engine could stop and on a nil wind day it is not uncommon to cross the airfield boundary at 300ft. I would NEVER consider turning back under such circumstances. As soon as the aircraft is airborne and manouverable I point it at the nearest open space/ field (subject to where the gliders are launching and the location of the winch). Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Joyce" Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:04 PM Subject: *** SPAM *** Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns > > > Carl, You may have a trigear which makes some difference to my thoughts on > this question, which are for what they are worth that it makes sense to > get > the flaps up as soon as you have reasonable speed (for me 60kts). In my > mono > I can climb at probably four times the rate when flaps are up compared > with > flaps down, so that the time that I spend in that awkward height band > where > you can only land ahead (even if you don't like any of what's ahead) is > drastically reduced. Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Pattinson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:54 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns > > > Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp > Fixed > pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage flaps > down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that would > be > required for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly > result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable results. > > Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height will > know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the > only > safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be > possible if the field is large enough. > > While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in shrub > or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would walk > away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney - > (Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few injuries. > > Carl Pattinson > G-LABS > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Harrison > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns > > > Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it > highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who did > my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a > safe > 180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I practised > a > few times. I think I'll practise a few more times. > > > The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200 > and 300 feet when it turned back. > > > Willie > > > On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote: > > > A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130 > pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week. > > He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a > large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is > between the runway and the golf course. > > It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if > he > had an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead. > Can that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical > cause? We may never know. > > Tom > > > On 6/18/07, Fred Klein wrote: > Dave and Dale, > > I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and > family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have > had > personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share > any > information on the accident with the Europa community. > > Fred > > > > > After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who > flies > > out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it > was, > > in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a > > terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another > > terrible loss. > > Dale Hetrick > > On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote: > > > Mike, > > > > Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the > time > > of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted > > about a year ago: > > > > The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local > boat > > dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is > > Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the > wing > > tie bar for restraint. > > > > I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long > > after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the > airplane > > at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know, > > nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used > to > > hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this > > accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to > > other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard > > of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.) > > > > Dave DeFord > > N135TD > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.c > om/Navigator?Europa-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:36 AM PST US From: "William Williams Wynne" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 180 degree turn back Well said Jon - I could not agree more. Having survived five successful dead-stick landings in different Europas "NEVER EVER TURN BACK" - its that simple. If the prop is set to fully fine for take-off (you do practice your PFLs lin that configuration don't you) your air speed and rate of descent will be much much faster and if there was any sort of wind down the runway when you took off, that runway, if by some miracle you did get all the way round, would be under you for a fraction of the time that it was on your take-off. This is a no-brainer. Don't even think of it. You won't have time, and almost as importantly it is devastating to lose our friends this way. As Dave Bosomworth says 'safe flying' - Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "JonSmith" Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:10 PM Subject: Europa-List: 180 degree turn back > > > Hi everyone! It's not often I'm moved to write here - I don't have any > technical skills to offer (I just very gratefully make use of other > people's knowledge by reading this forum!) > > However, regarding this "180 degree turning back" issue I'm absolutely > appalled at some of the comments I'm reading here. > > I can't say this loudly enough - or type it big enough: !!!DO NOT TURN > BACK!!! It's a killer. It always has been and always will be. There's > no big mystery about it - the SAFEST option will always be to land > somewhere that's reasonably in front of > you................................... ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:43 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 180 degree turn back From: "flyingphil2" Jon, That's completely the most sensible message I've read on this discussion. Case closed I think - I'm surprised no one mentioned it before....... Phil Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:51:35 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns Brian, exellent! I have been a member "always" but haven=B4t got the CD (maybe there was not yet a CD-invention in those early days!). Please send it me now! Thank you, Raimo ============= Raimo M W Toivio OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded) 37500 Lempaala Finland tel + 358 3 3753 777 fax + 358 3 3753 100 gsm + 358 40 590 1450 raimo.toivio@rwm.fi www.rwm.fi ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Davies To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 8:15 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns Raimo, When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that includes a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and accidents plus a number of related incidents that have significance to our aircraft type e.g composite construction issues. Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: 19 June 2007 15:37 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns When I practised Europa emergency landings with standing prop my height was 1000 feet from the ground when in downwind. I keeped it clean until over landing place in final. So I could be sure to reach estimated target. Any lower and I would not feel comfortable. Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Boulet To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:11 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns Hi all; Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180 with your prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I owned a Cessna 172 for many years and at altitude practiced the turn back. You actually turn more than 180 degrees- something like 210 if I recall so that you can fly back to the runway. Then you have to turn 30 degrees in opposite direction to line back up with r-way centerline. In my Cessna I recall losing some 800 feet of altitude- possibly more (it's been awhile). Upon takeoff I would call out "decision height" even if no one else was listening as a reminder of whether I would control crash straight ahead... or turn back to r-way. Keep the shiny side up; Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California Raimo Toivio wrote: It is very human and natural reaction to turn back and try to save the plane and make a day. If you land straight ahead you will probably survive but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less. If you turn back you may get killed but if everything goes well, you will fly again in the same day (after refueling or what so ever). What a problem to make decision in a few seconds. Break your baby or take a risk of death. Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case. After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more. This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow. There are let=B4s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas. How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years? 5% ? 10% ? I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms. Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety officer? What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year? What about comparison with certified aircrafts? This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75 knots MINIMUM. in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against gusts and failures. When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3 feets. Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing speed is 75 knots. With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000 feet. I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]). Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant. Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with black rubber and was screaming. Regards, Raimo ============ Raimo M W Toivio OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful landings OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded) 37500 Lempaala Finland tel + 358 3 3753 777 fax + 358 3 3753 100 gsm + 358 40 590 1450 raimo.toivio@rwm.fi www.rwm.fi ----- Original Message ----- From: William Harrison To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns Carl, Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in any aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height it might be a lifesaver. So, what is the height for various permutations of airspeed, flap, weight, prop status etc? I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts, flaps up (trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised. When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a personal rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back is worth deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs. What other views/data has anyone got? Willie On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote: Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable results. Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible if the field is large enough. While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few injuries. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: William Harrison To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll practise a few more times. The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back. Willie On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote: A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week. He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is between the runway and the golf course. It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know. Tom On 6/18/07, Fred Klein wrote: Dave and Dale, I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any information on the accident with the Europa community. Fred gdh@isp.com> > > After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies > out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it was, > in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a > terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another > terrible loss. > Dale Hetrick On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote: > Mike, > > Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the time > of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted > about a year ago: > > The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat > dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is > Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing > tie bar for restraint. > > I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long > after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the airplane > at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know, > nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used to > hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this > accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to > other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard > of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.) > > Dave DeFord > N135TD -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com - The Europa-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com 18/06/2007 15:02 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:01 AM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns Hi Brian I wouldn=92t mind a copy of that CD also if possible. Kind Regards Alan Burrows _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: 20 June 2007 10:55 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns Brian, exellent! I have been a member "always" but haven=B4t got the CD (maybe there was not yet a CD-invention in those early days!). Please send it me now! Thank you, Raimo ============= Raimo M W Toivio OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded) 37500 Lempaala Finland tel + 358 3 3753 777 fax + 358 3 3753 100 gsm + 358 40 590 1450 HYPERLINK "mailto:raimo.toivio@rwm.fi"raimo.toivio@rwm.fi HYPERLINK "http://www.rwm.fi"www.rwm.fi ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:bdavies@dircon.co.uk"Brian Davies "mailto:europa-list@matronics.com"europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 8:15 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns Raimo, When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that includes a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and accidents plus a number of related incidents that have significance to our aircraft type e.g composite construction issues. Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec. _____ From: HYPERLINK "mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com"owner-europa-list-server@m atr onics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: 19 June 2007 15:37 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns When I practised Europa emergency landings with standing prop my height was 1000 feet from the ground when in downwind. I keeped it clean until over landing place in final. So I could be sure to reach estimated target. Any lower and I would not feel comfortable. Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:possibletodo@yahoo.com"Paul Boulet "mailto:europa-list@matronics.com"europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:11 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns Hi all; Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180 with your prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I owned a Cessna 172 for many years and at altitude practiced the turn back. You actually turn more than 180 degrees- something like 210 if I recall so that you can fly back to the runway. Then you have to turn 30 degrees in opposite direction to line back up with r-way centerline. In my Cessna I recall losing some 800 feet of altitude- possibly more (it's been awhile). Upon takeoff I would call out "decision height" even if no one else was listening as a reminder of whether I would control crash straight ahead... or turn back to r-way. Keep the shiny side up; Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California Raimo Toivio wrote: It is very human and natural reaction to turn back and try to save the plane and make a day. If you land straight ahead you will probably survive but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less. If you turn back you may get killed but if everything goes well, you will fly again in the same day (after refueling or what so ever). What a problem to make decision in a few seconds. Break your baby or take a risk of death. Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case. After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more. This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow. There are let=B4s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas. How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years? 5% ? 10% ? I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms. Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety officer? What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year? What about comparison with certified aircrafts? This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75 knots MINIMUM. in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against gusts and failures. When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3 feets. Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing speed is 75 knots. With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000 feet. I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]). Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant. Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with black rubber and was screaming. Regards, Raimo ============ Raimo M W Toivio OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful landings OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded) 37500 Lempaala Finland tel + 358 3 3753 777 fax + 358 3 3753 100 gsm + 358 40 590 1450 HYPERLINK "mailto:raimo.toivio@rwm.fi"raimo.toivio@rwm.fi HYPERLINK "http://www.rwm.fi/"www.rwm.fi ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk"William Harrison "mailto:europa-list@matronics.com"europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns Carl, Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in any aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height it might be a lifesaver. So, what is the height for various permutations of airspeed, flap, weight, prop status etc? I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts, flaps up (trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised. When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a personal rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn back is worth deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs. What other views/data has anyone got? Willie On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote: Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the 80hp Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots at this stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500 feet) .The steep bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn at such a height would almost certainly result the inboard wing stalling with inevitable results. Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible if the field is large enough. While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even in shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa crash would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three years ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants survived with few injuries. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk"William Harrison "mailto:europa-list@matronics.com"europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident. However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway. John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll practise a few more times. The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back. Willie On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote: A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a week. He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash site is between the runway and the golf course. It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know. Tom On 6/18/07, Fred Klein wrote: Dave and Dale, I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any information on the accident with the Europa community. Fred "mailto:gdh@isp.com"gdh@isp.com> > > After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies > out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it was, > in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a > terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another > terrible loss. > Dale Hetrick On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote: > Mike, > > Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the time > of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted > about a year ago: > > The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat > dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is > Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing > tie bar for restraint. > > I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long > after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the airplane > at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know, > nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he used to > hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this > accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to > other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard > of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.) > > Dave DeFord > N135TD -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. href="HYPERLINK "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/ Nav igator?Europa-List">HYPERLINK "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/ Nav igator?Europa-Listhref="HYPERLINK "http://forums.matronics.com/"http://forums.matronics.com">HYPERLINK "http://forums.matronics.com/"http://forums.matronics.com href="HYPERLINK "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/ Nav igator?Europa-List">HYPERLINK "http://www.matronhref/"http://www.matronhref="HYPERLINK "http://forums.matronics.com/"http://forums.matronics.com">HYPERLINK "http://forums.matronics.com/"http://forums.matronics.com - The Europa-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-space"> --> HYPERLINK "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/ Nav igator?Europa-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> HYPERLINK "http://forums.matronics.com/" HYPERLINK "http://forums.matronics.com/" HYPERLINK "http://forums.matronics.com/"href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator? Europ a-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://foru ms.ma tronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com 18/06/2007 15:02 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/ Nav igator?Europa-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 19/06/2007 13:12 19/06/2007 13:12 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:09 AM PST US From: van eldik Subject: Europa-List: ENGINE FAILURE AFTER TAKE-OFF I started my flying with gliding and mostly winch launches. The stringent drill in case of a cable break in the high nose up attitude of the take-off is still deeply engrained. I often practise forced landings starting from a climb at full power going through the same drill. Flight Safety Vol 43 had an article on Stall/Spin which mentions that research has shown that a voice warning can often capture a pilot's immediate intention to the seriousness of a situation especially if such warning is piped into the pilot's headset. As a result I have installed Smart Avionics speaking airspeed indicator MK2 which give a voice speaking the airspeed . In director mode the airspeed is continuously measured and compared to a selected target speed. As wing loading increases the unit calculates how much this will increase the stall speed and subtracts that amount from the current airspeed so immediately reporting that the aircraft is slow even though the actual airspeed has not (yet) changed. I use a 60 kts director mode both in take-off and landing which I found very helpful in reminding me when to slow.By the way I have no interests in Smart Avionics but thought my experience might be of use to others. My Classic 912 UL mono has the electric flap system of the tri-gear and fixed down outriggers.After lift off and 60 kts I raise the gear and start retracting the flaps in stages. In case of a forced landing I have the choice to lower the wheel or land wheel up. In the latter configuration the aircraft stops very quickly . I know that from experience. Anthony van Eldik Mono Classic G-FLOR 912 UL with Airmaster AP308 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:09 AM PST US From: van eldik Subject: Europa-List: ENGINE FAILURE AFTER TAKE-OFF I started my flying with gliding and mostly winch launches. The stringent drill in case of a cable break in the high nose up attitude of the take-off is still deeply engrained. I often practise forced landings starting from a climb at full power going through the same drill. Flight Safety Vol 43 had an article on Stall/Spin which mentions that research has shown that a voice warning can often capture a pilot's immediate intention to the seriousness of a situation especially if such warning is piped into the pilot's headset. As a result I have installed Smart Avionics speaking airspeed indicator MK2 which give a voice speaking the airspeed . In director mode the airspeed is continuously measured and compared to a selected target speed. As wing loading increases the unit calculates how much this will increase the stall speed and subtracts that amount from the current airspeed so immediately reporting that the aircraft is slow even though the actual airspeed has not (yet) changed. I use a 60 kts director mode both in take-off and landing which I found very helpful in reminding me when to slow.By the way I have no interests in Smart Avionics but thought my experience might be of use to others. My Classic 912 UL mono has the electric flap system of the tri-gear and fixed down outriggers.After lift off and 60 kts I raise the gear and start retracting the flaps in stages. In case of a forced landing I have the choice to lower the wheel or land wheel up. In the latter configuration the aircraft stops very quickly . I know that from experience. Anthony van Eldik Mono Classic G-FLOR 912 UL with Airmaster AP308 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:20 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Glider winch launching and decision making From: "Mark Burton" Anthony mentions glider winch launching and I believe from my experience as a (retired) glider pilot and instructor that there is much to be learned from the winch launch experience that is applicable to the engine failure on take off situation. Glider pilots are trained to "do the right thing" when the winch launch fails. In a nutshell, when the launch fails you generally have the choice of landing ahead or making a VERY abbreviated circuit with other options possibly being available depending on such factors as airfield size and shape, wind speed and direction, aircraft performance, and so on. In my opinion, the hardest part of handling the winch launch failure is not getting the speed under control (attitude!) but it's making the right decision as to what to do next. Once the (right) decision has been made, the pressure on the pilot is very much reduced. Rules such as "always land ahead" are not acceptable because safe alternatives (normally do) exist. It all comes down to judgement and that only comes from experience. It takes quite a lot of training before a low hours glider pilot can safely handle a winch launch failure at any stage of the launch. i.e. they make the right decision every time. As any glider pilot will tell you, it's sometimes a very difficult decision to make. It's often the case that after the launch has failed (the instructor pulled the cable release) and the pupil has got the atitude and speed under control that nothing else happens! They just sit there not making a decision until the instructor suggests something before all the options run out. I think the point I'm getting to here is that a well trained and current glider pilot should be able to make the right decision and cope with a winch launch failure at any height. But that glider pilot has had a lot of very realistic training to help hone their decision making skills and judgement and (crucially) they continue to be tested on a regular basis and if their performance isn't adequate then more training is required. Now how about the power world? Apart from Bill (really 5?), how much REALISTIC training do power pilots get in terms of making the right decision regarding whether it is possible to turn back or not after engine failure on take off? Very little I think. How much experience does the average pilot have? I suspect that most have hardly any at all. So I believe that power pilots need to be very conservative in their judgement when it comes to decide whether to go straight on or to turn back. And finally, remember the old Test Pilot's motto "If you're going to hit a house, aim for a window!" Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119615#119615 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:10 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: 180 Turns In a message dated 6/20/2007 2:58:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list@matronics.com writes: Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible if the field is large enough. Hello Carl, Here on this side of the pond we glider pilots are required to demonstrate two simulated rope breaks at each biannual flight review. In my training days and subsequent biannual reviews since, I've had to demonstrate dozens of these maneuvers. Having experienced a release failure on take off I can tell you that the simulated rope break is almost like the real thing. There is never any warning, other than you know it will happen twice at some point in the review. The instructor, who sits in the back seat out of view, just yanks the release and you are off to the races. The only real warning you get is if you happen to see the release handle coming back just before the rope goes away. The simulated rope break is generally done at or slightly above 200' agl after take off. The recovery procedure is quite simple, but it takes a clear thinking mind, confidence in the performance of the aircraft, and some practice to execute the maneuver correctly. You also have to act and act immediately. What we are taught is to perform a "dog bone" or "tear drop" turn. Essentially, it's a shallow turn of about 30 degrees in one direction using the speed left over from the tow. Then, a steeper, more nose down turn of 210 degrees in the other direction to get lined up with the runway. You always want to make the 210 degree turn as much into the wind as possible. The direction of the turn(s) depends on the wind direction. This maneuver is easy to do, even in low performance trainers and I've always had to apply large amounts of spoiler and or a heavy slip to get back down and stopped without overshooting the runway. Below 200' we are taught to blow full spoilers and land straight ahead. What gets people into trouble in this situation, and on the downwind to base and base to final turns, is the tendency to "rudder" the airplane around. This tendency, coupled with a high nose angle, makes the turn uncoordinated, slowing the inside wing to the point of stalling and is what leads to stall/spin crashes on approach. This is a major cause of both glider accidents and power plane accidents on landing. I think this is very likely what happened to Cliff and Betty Shaw, and was probably exaggerated because they were loaded with baggage and possibly had an aft C of G. With all this said, and having practiced the dog bone maneuver in N245E, I don't think I could do this maneuver in my Europa from less than about 400' in the best of conditions and safely return to the runway. Since I fly regularly out of 2200' surrounded by trees, I don't have a lot of options. I get the flaps up within about 10 seconds of breaking ground and keep the nose down to accelerate in ground effect to slightly above the best rate of climb until I'm over the trees, then slow to best rate of climb to pattern altitude, then I usually go to cruise climb. With this method, if the engine quits at 400' or higher I'll have 75 -80 kts to work with. Depending on the wind, with the extra speed I would likely return to the runway. If the engine quits at 200'-400', with the extra speed I can easily get over the trees and into the next field. Might not be a pretty landing, but certainly better than taking an "arboreal adventure". I think the key here is practice, practice, practice! Every pilot, regardless of how much air time you have accumulated, should take some glider lessons if you haven't already. Get used to flying an airplane without an engine. Learn how to conserve energy and translate energy and altitude to airspeed. Better yet, go ahead and get your glider rating. It's a whole lot of fun and it'll make you a much better, more coordinated and confident pilot. You'll be much more prepared when (not if) the engine goes quiet. It'll be a little less of "oh shit, the engine quit" and a little more of "oh well, I'm in a glider again" situation. Regards, John Lawton Dunlap, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:30 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa Incident From: "Finklea" I too find it difficult to believe that Ken Hill would have ever turned back in this situation with a field and a golf course ahead of him. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119623#119623 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:35 AM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: 180 Turns Do not arcive John- You're right on. At our old airport in Illinois, we required at least a glider solo for anyone who wanted to learn how to fly. In most cases, they finished the glider rating before transitioning to power. If I had my way, that would be required of all pilots. We have a 3 foot piece of tow rope framed and on the wall in our bedroom. My wife had a break at 200 feet on her first solo in a 2-33. We were towing with a Bird Dog that we found had a miscalibrated ASI and the break was caused by towing her too fast. She was able to convert the extra airspeed to altitude and got to about 400 feet before putting the nose down and turning. We asked her if she wanted to get out of the airplane after she landed and she elected to stay in it unitl we replaced the rope. She said later that the reason she wanted to stay is that she could not have stood up if she got out. I'm sure the situation would be much more difficult in winch launch where the angle of attack is very high. Jim Puglise A-283 -------------- Original message -------------- From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com In a message dated 6/20/2007 2:58:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list@matronics.com writes: Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible if the field is large enough. Hello Carl, Here on this side of the pond we glider pilots are required to demonstrate two simulated rope breaks at each biannual flight review. In my training days and subsequent biannual reviews since, I've had to demonstrate dozens of these maneuvers. Having experienced a release failure on take off I can tell you that the simulated rope break is almost like the real thing. There is never any warning, other than you know it will happen twice at some point in the review. The instructor, who sits in the back seat out of view, just yanks the release and you are off to the races. The only real warning you get is if you happen to see the release handle coming back just before the rope goes away. The simulated rope break is generally done at or slightly above 200' agl after take off. The recovery procedure is quite simple, but it takes a clear thinking mind, confidence in the performance of the aircraft, and some practice to execute the maneuver correctly. You also have to act and act immediately. What we are taught is to perform a "dog bone" or "tear drop" turn. Essentially, it's a shallow turn of about 30 degrees in one direction using the speed left over from the tow. Then, a steeper, more nose down turn of 210 degrees in the other direction to get lined up with the runway. You always want to make the 210 degree turn as much into the wind as possible. The direction of the turn(s) depends on the wind direction. This maneuver is easy to do, even in low performance trainers and I've always had to apply large amounts of spoiler and or a heavy slip to get back down and stopped without overshooting the runway. Below 200' we are taught to blow full spoilers and land str aight ahead. What gets people into trouble in this situation, and on the downwind to base and base to final turns, is the tendency to "rudder" the airplane around. This tendency, coupled with a high nose angle, makes the turn uncoordinated, slowing the inside wing to the point of stalling and is what leads to stall/spin crashes on approach. This is a major cause of both glider accidents and power plane accidents on landing. I think this is very likely what happened to Cliff and Betty Shaw, and was probably exaggerated because they were loaded with baggage and possibly had an aft C of G. With all this said, and having practiced the dog bone maneuver in N245E, I don't think I could do this maneuver in my Europa from less than about 400' in the best of conditions and safely return to the runway. Since I fly regularly out of 2200' surrounded by trees, I don't have a lot of options. I get the flaps up within about 10 seconds of breaking ground and keep the nose down to accelerate in ground effect to slightly above the best rate of climb until I'm over the trees, then slow to best rate of climb to pattern altitude, then I usually go to cruise climb. With this method, if the engine quits at 400' or higher I'll have 75 -80 kts to work with. Depending on the wind, with the extra speed I would likely return to the runway. If the engine quits at 200'-400', with the extra speed I can easily get over the trees and into the next field. Might not be a pretty landing, but certainly better than taking an "arboreal adventure". I think the key here is practice, practice, practice! Every pilot, regardless of how much air time you have accumulated, should take some glider lessons if you haven't already. Get used to flying an airplane without an engine. Learn how to conserve energy and translate energy and altitude to airspeed. Better yet, go ahead and get your glider rating. It's a whole lot of fun and it'll make you a much better, more coordinated and confident pilot. You'll be much more prepared when (not if) the engine goes quiet. It'll be a little less of "oh shit, the engine quit" and a little more of "oh well, I'm in a glider again" situation. Regards, John Lawton Dunlap, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying See what's free at AOL.com.
Do not arcive
 
John-
 
You're right on.  At our old airport in Illinois, we required at least a glider solo for anyone who wanted to learn how to fly.  In most cases, they finished the glider rating before transitioning to power.  If I had my way, that would be required of all pilots.  We have a 3 foot piece of tow rope framed and on the wall in our bedroom.  My wife had a break at 200 feet on her first solo in a 2-33.  We were towing with a Bird Dog that we found had a miscalibrated ASI and the break was caused by towing her too fast.  She was able to convert the extra airspeed to altitude and got to about 400 feet before putting the nose down and turning.  We asked her if she wanted to get out of the airplane after she landed and she elected to stay in it unitl we replaced the rope.  She said later that the reason she wanted to stay is that she could not have stood up if she got out. I'm sure the situation would be muc h more difficult in winch launch where the angle of attack is very high.   
 
Jim Puglise A-283
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
In a message dated 6/20/2007 2:58:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list@matronics.com writes:
Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height
will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and
the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree
turn may be possible if the field is large enough.
 
Hello Carl,
 
Here on this side of the pond we glider pilots are required to demonstrate two simulated rope breaks at each biannual flight review. In my training days and subsequent biannual reviews since, I've had to demonstrate dozens of these maneuvers. Having experienced a release failure on take off I can tell you that the simulated rope break is almost like the real thing. There is never any warning, other than you know it will happen twice at some point in the review. The instructor, who sits in the back seat out of view, just yanks the release and you are off to the races. The only real warning you get is if you happen to see the release handle coming back just before the rope goes away.
 
The simulated rope break is generally done at or slightly above 200' agl after take off. The recovery procedure is quite simple, but it takes a clear thinking mind, confidence in the performance of the aircraft, and some practice to execute the maneuver correctly. You also have to act and act immediately.  What we are taught is to perform a "dog bone" or "tear drop" turn. Essentially, it's a shallow turn of about 30 degrees in one direction using the speed left over from the tow. Then, a steeper, more nose down turn of 210 degrees in the other direction to get lined up with the runway. You always want to make the 210 degree turn as much into the wind as possible. The direction of the turn(s) depends on the wind direction.  This maneuver is easy to do, even in low performance trainers and I've always had to apply large amounts of spoiler and or a heavy slip to get back down and stopped without overshooting t he run way. Below 200' we are taught to blow full spoilers and land straight ahead.
 
What gets people into trouble in this situation, and on the downwind to base and base to final turns, is the tendency to "rudder" the airplane around. This tendency, coupled with a high nose angle, makes the turn uncoordinated, slowing the inside wing to the point of stalling and is what leads to stall/spin crashes on approach. This is a major cause of both glider accidents and power plane accidents on landing. I think this is very likely what happened to Cliff and Betty Shaw, and was probably exaggerated because they were loaded with baggage and possibly had an aft C of G.
 
With all this said, and having practiced the dog bone maneuver in N245E, I don't think I could do this maneuver in my Europa from less than about 400' in the best of conditions and safely return to the runway. Since I fly regularly out of 2200' surrounded by trees, I don't have a lot of options. I get the flaps up within about 10 seconds of breaking ground and keep the nose down to accelerate in ground effect to slightly above the best rate of climb until I'm over the trees, then slow to best rate of climb to pattern altitude, then I usually go to cruise climb. With this method, if the engine quits at 400' or higher I'll have 75 -80 kts to work with. Depending on the wind, with the extra speed I would likely return to the runway. If the engine quits at 200'-400', with the extra speed I can easily get over the trees and into the next field. Might not be a pretty landing, but certainly better than taking an "arboreal adventure".
 
I think the key here is practice, practice, practice! Every pilot, regardless of how much air time you have accumulated, should take some glider lessons if you haven't already. Get used to flying an airplane without an engine. Learn how to conserve energy and translate energy and altitude to airspeed. Better yet, go ahead and get your glider rating. It's a whole lot of fun and it'll make you a much better, more coordinated and confident pilot. You'll be much more prepared when (not if)  the engine goes quiet. It'll be a little less of "oh shit, the engine quit" and a little more of "oh well, I'm in a glider again" situation.
 
Regards,
 
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
 
 



See what's free at AOL.com.
________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:35 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 180 turns From: "rampil" If I recall my discussion with Andy Draper correctly, the negative effects of stall strips is a minor increase in stall speed and a minor decrease in cruise speed. Stall strips do not alter pre-stall buffet. Buffet is due to delaminated, turbulent flow off the stalled wing hitting the elevator. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119628#119628 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:52 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re. 180 degree turn back From: "JonSmith" Hi! Just to clarify a couple of points since my previous posting: Re. Messsage from Hans Danielsen many thanks for your input re. climb out technique. I absolutely agree with you about flaps up and speed etc! I was trying to set an example of a worse case but entirely possible scenario of an engine failure at (say) 500 feet, low speed, nose high, flaps down a very poor position to be in from which recovery would be demanding. I should have emphasised that my own take off technique is not this! Im a flaps up ASAP person! If the engine does fail I certainly dont want them down if it can be avoided. Hold the plane down a bit, get some speed, get the flaps up. Near the ground, speed is good! How low to put them up is entirely up to you and what you feel comfortable with just dont scrape the belly! I retract them slowly and progressively no noticable sink then! Even with a good climb out technique still dont be tempted to turn back! You are simply in a much better position to land safely ahead somewhere! Re. Message from Rick Stockton I was interested to read your posting you have obviously thought about this a great deal. I have no doubt that you are highly experienced and practised at this manoeuvre and that you and all your highly trained students will have a slightly better chance than many on the roulette wheel of turning back and may get away with it. My concern is though what about the rest of us. I feel people will read this and think sounds good thats me sorted for EFATOs. I really worry that ordinary people (like me and most of us) would be killed attempting this so I urge again LAND AHEAD ITS ALWAYS SAFER THAT WAY. I suspect that many, equally experienced and competent pilots in the past (including tragically one very recently) have probably had their own theories that they can turn back, but when faced with the situation for real have become victims to what is historically a highly dangerous manoeuvre. I will pray for your continued success. Just a final word about EFATOs Im not a great lover of that period between lift off and when I know I can safely glide to a landing site/ strip/ GOOD field. For me its a bit like flying over water! Fortunately the engine doesnt know its there and this period neednt last too long. I always try to minimise this time by not climbing straight ahead but turning if necessary, soon after take off and positioning so that reasonably soon I can reach a safe landing area by gliding. (As an example, when I take off from my home strip on one end, a 45 degree right turn and within seconds Im within gliding range of a disused military field with good runways thats nice!) If I have an engine failure after take off at any time up to that point when I decide I can glide safely (without dangerous manoeuvring!) to a landing site, I just accept that I will have to make the best of a landing somewhere in front of me. Simple! Thats it from me now on the subject. Stay safe! Regards, Jon Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:57 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa Incident From: "Finklea" The question of extra fuel tanks is very interesting. Does anyone have a way to find out if Ken had them strapped on? I'm sure Sandy may know but this is not the time to ask. The extra weight on the wings may also have led to this possible stall situation. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119636#119636 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:01 AM PST US From: "Jeremy Davey" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa Incident Surely his extra tanks would have been in the baggage bays, not wing-mounted. I know the idea has been mooted with the XS wings in the past, but I'm not aware of anyone who has done it. Regards, Jeremy -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Finklea Sent: 20 June 2007 16:16 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa Incident The question of extra fuel tanks is very interesting. Does anyone have a way to find out if Ken had them strapped on? I'm sure Sandy may know but this is not the time to ask. The extra weight on the wings may also have led to this possible stall situation. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119636#119636 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:10 AM PST US From: "Mike Gregory" Subject: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS To all Listers Please see the updated safety bulletin on the PFA web site - see link below. Mike Europa Club Safety Officer EUROPA SAFETY ALERT UPDATE! EUROPA SAFETY BULLETIN RAISED TO ISSUE 2 TO INCLUDE FURTHER GUIDANCE ON ACCEPTANCE DESIGNS OF PIP-PIN RECESSES IN TAILPLANES. Europa Flight Safety Bulletin 006 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Glider winch launching and decision making From: "flyingphil2" Hi, Mark is absolutely right and as a current glider pilot I think I have one other thing to add to that. All UK glider pilots are trained so that when they do their pre-flight checks, the final check they make is 'Eventualities'. This makes them think about what they will do if the launch goes wrong (i.e cable break on the winch or rope break on aerotow). The whole idea is to basically assume that something is going to go wrong and plan for it. If the launch is actually successful then that's a bonus! So, I wonder how many power pilots plan for an engine failure shortly after take off. As a glider tug pilot I've become very aware of the consequences and drill for an engine failure at 300' but even with that in mind I'm sure it would be stressfull and a very high workload with a land ahead controlled crash if it happens. So, worth adding 'E' for eventualities to your pre-take off checks! Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:46 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Europa-List: torque tube backlash specs Dear All Can anyone tell me why finite backlash is permitted between the TR4 torque tube and the TP12 drive flanges, but none is permitted between the mass balance assembly and the torque tube? Surely backlash anywhere in the chain between the mass balance and the tailplanes is equally undesirable from a flutter viewpoint? Or, looked at from the other way, if there is a finite amount of backlash allowable consistent with anti flutter behaviour, then why can this not be distributed as a "backlash budget" amongst all the links in the chain? Have I missed something? Because if not, I suspect an awful lot of UK Europas are going to get grounded pending what may be an unnecessary and painful "repair" to the TP9 horn attachment. (In all the circumstances, don't expect any flexibility from your inspector in interpreting the document...) Incidentally, the 1/2" drive flange backlash, (measured at the tailplane trailing edges), as specified in the Safety Bulletin, is a lot more than the 3/16" limit which I recall being told by Europa 3 years ago. Can anyone shed light on that? Willie Harrison On 20 Jun 2007, at 16:58, Mike Gregory wrote: > To all Listers > > Please see the updated safety bulletin on the PFA web site ' see > link below. > > Mike > > Europa Club Safety Officer > > EUROPA SAFETY ALERT UPDATE! > > EUROPA SAFETY BULLETIN RAISED TO ISSUE 2 TO INCLUDE FURTHER > GUIDANCE ON ACCEPTANCE DESIGNS OF PIP-PIN RECESSES IN TAILPLANES. > > Europa Flight Safety Bulletin 006 > > ======================== > ======================== > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:08 AM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: Europa-List: light relief A little light relief HYPERLINK "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vHiYA6Dmws"http://www.youtube.com/watch ?v=-vHiYA6Dmws Richard Iddon G-RIXS 20/06/2007 14:18 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:52 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Glider winch launching and decision making Can I add one item to the pre takeoff checklist (as part of eventualities). B for passenger briefing. How many of us tell the passenger what to expect if the engine fails and more importantly the evacuation drill once you are back on the ground (hopefully in one piece). If you did the passenger briefing you would be considering the possibility of the "donkey" quitting. As an ex glider pilot I always looked forward to the odd cable break - a challenge to be savoured and learned from. At one club I used to fly from they were a regular occurrence so when it happened they were something of a non event. Recently I came up with the idea of asking my "fearless" wife (who is less afraid of flying with me than me) to tap the throttle without warning on randomly selected takeoffs and ask me where I planned to land. It would certainly be an effective way of practicing an engine failure. Problem is she might tell me to fly on my own. carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "flyingphil2" Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 5:12 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Glider winch launching and decision making > > Hi, > > Mark is absolutely right and as a current glider pilot I think I have one > other thing to add to that. > > All UK glider pilots are trained so that when they do their pre-flight > checks, the final check they make is 'Eventualities'. This makes them > think about what they will do if the launch goes wrong (i.e cable break on > the winch or rope break on aerotow). The whole idea is to basically > assume that something is going to go wrong and plan for it. If the launch > is actually successful then that's a bonus! > > So, I wonder how many power pilots plan for an engine failure shortly > after take off. As a glider tug pilot I've become very aware of the > consequences and drill for an engine failure at 300' but even with that in > mind I'm sure it would be stressfull and a very high workload with a land > ahead controlled crash if it happens. > > So, worth adding 'E' for eventualities to your pre-take off checks! > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:48 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: When to retract the flaps? > As regards the flaps question I totally agree that you need to get rid of > as much drag as possible as soon as possible. However a full retraction of > the flaps will cause the aircraft to sink (anything up to 100ft). I was > warned by a very experienced pilot that this was not a clever thing to do > especially at 200ft. Carl, With respect, if you are losing upto 100ft on flap retraction, you are not using the best technique. Holding the same attitude while retracting the flap will result in a settling/sink. However, what one should do is as the flaps are slowly retracted, the nose is raised to compensate for the reduction in lift caused by the change in configuration. In my limited experience with my 914 powered Monowheel, retracting the flap never ceases to amaze me, the surge in performance as the wheel and flap retract is brilliant. regards, Mike ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:06 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: When to retract the flaps? Mike, I normally accelerate in something close to ground effect to a minimum of 60kts and then progressively over about 2 secs pull up gear and flap. Never noticed any tendency to sink, simply accelerates and starts to climb nicely. If the engine goes I don't care too much whether I have got round to putting the wheel down again. If you have runway to land on the damage is negligible. If not you have much more serious things to worry about! Regards, David Joyce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Parkin" Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 8:02 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: When to retract the flaps? > > > As regards the flaps question I totally agree that you need to get rid of > > as much drag as possible as soon as possible. However a full retraction of > > the flaps will cause the aircraft to sink (anything up to 100ft). I was > > warned by a very experienced pilot that this was not a clever thing to do > > especially at 200ft. > > Carl, > > With respect, if you are losing upto 100ft on flap retraction, you are not > using the best technique. > > Holding the same attitude while retracting the flap will result in a > settling/sink. However, what one should do is as the flaps are slowly > retracted, the nose is raised to compensate for the reduction in lift caused > by the change in configuration. > > In my limited experience with my 914 powered Monowheel, retracting the flap > never ceases to amaze me, the surge in performance as the wheel and flap > retract is brilliant. > > regards, > > Mike > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:19 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 180 Turns John, It's worth perhaps making the point that trees make a fairly reasonable place to land in an emergency. Over 90% of those force landing in trees survive - beats landing in a housing estate or spinning into hard ground. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 2:44 PM Subject: Europa-List: 180 Turns > In a message dated 6/20/2007 2:58:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > europa-list@matronics.com writes: > > Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height > will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and > the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree > turn may be possible if the field is large enough. > > Hello Carl, > > Here on this side of the pond we glider pilots are required to demonstrate > two simulated rope breaks at each biannual flight review. In my training days > and subsequent biannual reviews since, I've had to demonstrate dozens of > these maneuvers. Having experienced a release failure on take off I can tell you > that the simulated rope break is almost like the real thing. There is never > any warning, other than you know it will happen twice at some point in the > review. The instructor, who sits in the back seat out of view, just yanks the > release and you are off to the races. The only real warning you get is if you > happen to see the release handle coming back just before the rope goes away. > > The simulated rope break is generally done at or slightly above 200' agl > after take off. The recovery procedure is quite simple, but it takes a clear > thinking mind, confidence in the performance of the aircraft, and some practice > to execute the maneuver correctly. You also have to act and act immediately. > What we are taught is to perform a "dog bone" or "tear drop" turn. > Essentially, it's a shallow turn of about 30 degrees in one direction using the speed > left over from the tow. Then, a steeper, more nose down turn of 210 degrees > in the other direction to get lined up with the runway. You always want to > make the 210 degree turn as much into the wind as possible. The direction of the > turn(s) depends on the wind direction. This maneuver is easy to do, even in > low performance trainers and I've always had to apply large amounts of > spoiler and or a heavy slip to get back down and stopped without overshooting the > runway. Below 200' we are taught to blow full spoilers and land straight ahead. > > What gets people into trouble in this situation, and on the downwind to base > and base to final turns, is the tendency to "rudder" the airplane around. > This tendency, coupled with a high nose angle, makes the turn uncoordinated, > slowing the inside wing to the point of stalling and is what leads to > stall/spin crashes on approach. This is a major cause of both glider accidents and > power plane accidents on landing. I think this is very likely what happened to > Cliff and Betty Shaw, and was probably exaggerated because they were loaded > with baggage and possibly had an aft C of G. > > With all this said, and having practiced the dog bone maneuver in N245E, I > don't think I could do this maneuver in my Europa from less than about 400' in > the best of conditions and safely return to the runway. Since I fly > regularly out of 2200' surrounded by trees, I don't have a lot of options. I get the > flaps up within about 10 seconds of breaking ground and keep the nose down to > accelerate in ground effect to slightly above the best rate of climb until > I'm over the trees, then slow to best rate of climb to pattern altitude, then > I usually go to cruise climb. With this method, if the engine quits at 400' > or higher I'll have 75 -80 kts to work with. Depending on the wind, with the > extra speed I would likely return to the runway. If the engine quits at > 200'-400', with the extra speed I can easily get over the trees and into the next > field. Might not be a pretty landing, but certainly better than taking an > "arboreal adventure". > > I think the key here is practice, practice, practice! Every pilot, > regardless of how much air time you have accumulated, should take some glider lessons > if you haven't already. Get used to flying an airplane without an engine. > Learn how to conserve energy and translate energy and altitude to airspeed. > Better yet, go ahead and get your glider rating. It's a whole lot of fun and > it'll make you a much better, more coordinated and confident pilot. You'll be > much more prepared when (not if) the engine goes quiet. It'll be a little less > of "oh shit, the engine quit" and a little more of "oh well, I'm in a glider > again" situation. > > Regards, > > John Lawton > Dunlap, TN (TN89) > N245E - Flying > > > ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:31 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: When to extend the flaps From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com Some postings indicate that the safest time to extend the flaps, is on final. I prefer to slow down on base and extend them while high, then set up the glide path. The turn to final, with full flaps does not seem like a hazardous manouevre, but if it is, will someone let me know ! On take off, Jim T suggested for the tri-gear, full down deflection on the pilot side aileron, and just matching the flap angle to this. A good compromise that seems to work better than full flap, at least on pavement. Dave A061 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:44 PM PST US From: "Mike Gamble" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns Hi Brian, I would appreciate a copy of the CD you mentioned if you still have them. Thanks and regards Mike Gamble XS mono #440 ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Davies To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that includes a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and accidents plus a number of related incidents that have significance to our aircraft type e.g composite construction issues. Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:49 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: When to retract the flaps? > Holding the same attitude while retracting the flap will result in a > settling/sink. However, what one should do is as the flaps are slowly > retracted, the nose is raised to compensate for the reduction in lift caused > by the change in configuration I agree. I have learnt also to do it (retracting) almost immeadiately after take-off. By doing it slowly /gently it is easy & safe. No notable height loss at all. Our Europa (Mono of course!) is a real performer as a clean (clean only!!!) - so it must be clean asap after take-off. > In my limited experience with my 914 powered Monowheel, retracting the flap > never ceases to amaze me, the surge in performance as the wheel and flap > retract is brilliant. In my VERY limited experience (912S), just confirm, REALLY. One can ask: what to do if emergency landing gear retracted (when doing "too early" in take-off)? "So what" is my answer! It is easy and fast to lower and in the other hand, Europa has a slippery boat-like-body to land w/o gear. Happy landings. Regards, Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Parkin" Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:02 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: When to retract the flaps? > > > As regards the flaps question I totally agree that you need to get rid of > > as much drag as possible as soon as possible. However a full retraction of > > the flaps will cause the aircraft to sink (anything up to 100ft). I was > > warned by a very experienced pilot that this was not a clever thing to do > > especially at 200ft. > > Carl, > > With respect, if you are losing upto 100ft on flap retraction, you are not > using the best technique. > > Holding the same attitude while retracting the flap will result in a > settling/sink. However, what one should do is as the flaps are slowly > retracted, the nose is raised to compensate for the reduction in lift caused > by the change in configuration. > > In my limited experience with my 914 powered Monowheel, retracting the flap > never ceases to amaze me, the surge in performance as the wheel and flap > retract is brilliant. > > regards, > > Mike > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:07 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: When to retract the flaps? Thanks for the tip - will give it a try. Not sure though why you would need to bother with a 914 and I would guess a VP prop. It goes up like a rocket anyway. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Parkin" Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 8:02 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: When to retract the flaps? > > >> As regards the flaps question I totally agree that you need to get rid of >> as much drag as possible as soon as possible. However a full retraction >> of the flaps will cause the aircraft to sink (anything up to 100ft). I >> was warned by a very experienced pilot that this was not a clever thing >> to do especially at 200ft. > > Carl, > > With respect, if you are losing upto 100ft on flap retraction, you are not > using the best technique. > > Holding the same attitude while retracting the flap will result in a > settling/sink. However, what one should do is as the flaps are slowly > retracted, the nose is raised to compensate for the reduction in lift > caused by the change in configuration. > > In my limited experience with my 914 powered Monowheel, retracting the > flap never ceases to amaze me, the surge in performance as the wheel and > flap retract is brilliant. > > regards, > > Mike > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:25 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: When to retract the flaps? Carl Mike is right, I used virtually the same technique, As soon as positive rate of climb is confirmed at around 2 to 300 ft unlock the indercarriage and start slowly retractiong the flaps allowing the airplane to maintain its trim. This resulted in a smooth transition from 65 kt climb with flap to 80kt climb without, and no height loss when raising the flaps. There should be no trim change from flaps down at 60 kts to flaps up at 80kts, but there is an attitude chage of course. You should find that flaps will settle anywhere in the range because there is no load on the lever except the load of the undercarriage, which is taken by the shock chords. If they don't then you need to adjust the shock chords Graham Mike Parkin wrote: > Holding the same attitude while retracting the flap will result in a > settling/sink. However, what one should do is as the flaps are slowly > retracted, the nose is raised to compensate for the reduction in lift > caused by the change in configuration. > > In my limited experience with my 914 powered Monowheel, retracting the > flap never ceases to amaze me, the surge in performance as the wheel and > flap retract is brilliant. > > regards, > > Mike ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:25 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS Well, this really puts the cat amongst the pigeons. I have just spent a day upgrading the pins in the tailplane torque so I could continue flying. Not the nicest job in the world (unless you are a midget) The revised bulletin effectively grounds me. My pip pin hole is circular as are many (its easier to make a cover for them). Since a circular hole is more "efficient" circumference wise (as opposed to a rectangle) the circumference of mine aint big enough. PFA have advised not to modify them to meet the criteria but to wait for the revised design - oh and most importantly "Do not fly the aircraft". For those that may have a similar problem the formula is Circumference is 3.142 x diameter. Area is 3.142 x radius squared. Limits are Base of recess must be more than 170 sq mm Circumference of recess must be more than 125mm Also recess must have at least 2 layers of bid and must have flox corners at the join with the tailplane skin. A one inch (25mm) diameter pip pin recess fails the above criteria - Area 490sq mm - Circumference only 78mm. What a bummer. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 4:58 PM Subject: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS To all Listers Please see the updated safety bulletin on the PFA web site - see link below. Mike Europa Club Safety Officer EUROPA SAFETY ALERT UPDATE! EUROPA SAFETY BULLETIN RAISED TO ISSUE 2 TO INCLUDE FURTHER GUIDANCE ON ACCEPTANCE DESIGNS OF PIP-PIN RECESSES IN TAILPLANES. Europa Flight Safety Bulletin 006 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:04 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: 180 turns Ira I agree. I don't believe buffet is any good as a stall warning anyway because in the typical scenario of high workload and difficult urgent decision making the pilot won't notice the buffet. Stall strips properly adjusted make the stall less agressive and recovery easier. Graham List message posted by: "rampil" > > If I recall my discussion with Andy Draper correctly, the negative > effects of stall strips is a minor increase in stall speed and a minor decrease > in cruise speed. > > Stall strips do not alter pre-stall buffet. Buffet is due to delaminated, > turbulent flow off the stalled wing hitting the elevator. > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119628#119628 > > > > > > > > > > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:17 PM PST US From: "Steve Pitt" Subject: Europa-List: Europa pip-pin recess I have just seen the updated safety bulletin and I suspect many of us will now find ourselves grounded as having non standard pip-pin recesses. I have looked at the new Issue 2 and using the calculations therein have calculated that 1) the base of the pip-pin recess needs to be at least 13mm by 13mm or a radius of 7.35mm and 2) the top recess to the skin needs to be either a square 31.25mm each side or a circle of 20mm radius. I suspect it is this latter dimension that is going to ground many of us as the nicely turned circular pip-pin recesses with built in covers are not likely to be that big. I have just checked mine and found it to be 14.5mm radius (29mm diameter) so I am grounded for the duration. Also if you have used plastic fittings without covering them with two plies of bid then this will also fail you. Any one else picked up on this dilemma? Steve Pitt G-SMDH Tri gear XS with 46 hours on the clock ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:36 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS Carl I moght be wrong but I would not have grounded you. The smaller the circumference the stronger the hole surround? Graham Carl Pattinson wrote: > Well, this really puts the cat amongst the pigeons. > My pip pin hole is circular as are many (its easier to make a cover for > them). Since a circular hole is more "efficient" circumference wise (as > opposed to a rectangle) the circumference of mine aint big enough. > > PFA have advised not to modify them to meet the criteria but to wait for > the revised design - oh and most importantly "Do not fly the aircraft". > > For those that may have a similar problem the formula is Circumference > is 3.142 x diameter. Area is 3.142 x radius squared. > > Limits are > > Base of recess must be more than 170 sq mm > Circumference of recess must be more than 125mm > > Also recess must have at least 2 layers of bid and must have flox > corners at the join with the tailplane skin. > > A one inch (25mm) diameter pip pin recess fails the above criteria - > Area 490sq mm - Circumference only 78mm. > > What a bummer. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mike Gregory > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 20, 2007 4:58 PM > *Subject:* Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS > > *To all Listers* > > *Please see the updated safety bulletin on the PFA web site see > link below.* > > *Mike* > > *Europa Club Safety Officer* > > *EUROPA SAFETY ALERT UPDATE!* > > EUROPA SAFETY BULLETIN RAISED TO *ISSUE 2* TO INCLUDE FURTHER > GUIDANCE ON ACCEPTANCE DESIGNS OF PIP-PIN RECESSES IN TAILPLANES. > > Europa Flight Safety Bulletin 006 > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > * > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:43 PM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS The simplest fix would appear to be to construct a "standard recess" on the underside of the stab in place of the drain hole. This would be stronger than the existing construction and would not run the risk of dislodging TP6 whilst trying to undo an existing (non standard)arrangement on the top. Brian Davies -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: 20 June 2007 22:43 Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS --> Carl I moght be wrong but I would not have grounded you. The smaller the circumference the stronger the hole surround? Graham Carl Pattinson wrote: > Well, this really puts the cat amongst the pigeons. > My pip pin hole is circular as are many (its easier to make a cover > for them). Since a circular hole is more "efficient" circumference > wise (as opposed to a rectangle) the circumference of mine aint big enough. > > PFA have advised not to modify them to meet the criteria but to wait > for the revised design - oh and most importantly "Do not fly the aircraft". > > For those that may have a similar problem the formula is Circumference > is 3.142 x diameter. Area is 3.142 x radius squared. > > Limits are > > Base of recess must be more than 170 sq mm Circumference of recess > must be more than 125mm > > Also recess must have at least 2 layers of bid and must have flox > corners at the join with the tailplane skin. > > A one inch (25mm) diameter pip pin recess fails the above criteria - > Area 490sq mm - Circumference only 78mm. > > What a bummer. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mike Gregory > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 20, 2007 4:58 PM > *Subject:* Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS > > *To all Listers* > > *Please see the updated safety bulletin on the PFA web site see > link below.* > > *Mike* > > *Europa Club Safety Officer* > > *EUROPA SAFETY ALERT UPDATE!* > > EUROPA SAFETY BULLETIN RAISED TO *ISSUE 2* TO INCLUDE FURTHER > GUIDANCE ON ACCEPTANCE DESIGNS OF PIP-PIN RECESSES IN TAILPLANES. > > Europa Flight Safety Bulletin 006 > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matro > nhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > * > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 13:12 13:12 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:59 PM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: 180 turns Ah again displaying my ignorance..."properly adjusted stall strips". How do you go about adjusting them? -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 16:37 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: 180 turns Ira I agree. I don't believe buffet is any good as a stall warning anyway because in the typical scenario of high workload and difficult urgent decision making the pilot won't notice the buffet. Stall strips properly adjusted make the stall less agressive and recovery easier. Graham List message posted by: "rampil" > > If I recall my discussion with Andy Draper correctly, the negative > effects of stall strips is a minor increase in stall speed and a minor decrease > in cruise speed. > > Stall strips do not alter pre-stall buffet. Buffet is due to delaminated, > turbulent flow off the stalled wing hitting the elevator. > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119628#119628 > > > > > > > > > > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:38:57 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: Europa-List: Mods...Mods...Mods..! Hi! /all >From where I'm standing having not flown my own a/c for over a year and nearly got my new 914 installed it looks like there's lots of "headless chickens" running round. I recall a certain statement from the past which went something like ..."knee jerk" ! I don't believe that the amount of slop between Williams Tail planes has been reported yet, from the annual inspection he had only a matter of about an hour earlier to his accident. Perhaps this would be a useful base line to consider first ? BTW I hadn't sold him any Torque Tube clamps. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG now been grounded for 13 months and counting ! Do not archive. Robt.C.Harrison ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:05 PM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS So the "drain hole" on the underside needs to be turned into something similar to the 'ole on the top which my fast build (ha ha) kit came with? -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Davies Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 16:59 Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS The simplest fix would appear to be to construct a "standard recess" on the underside of the stab in place of the drain hole. This would be stronger than the existing construction and would not run the risk of dislodging TP6 whilst trying to undo an existing (non standard)arrangement on the top. Brian Davies -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: 20 June 2007 22:43 Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS --> Carl I moght be wrong but I would not have grounded you. The smaller the circumference the stronger the hole surround? Graham Carl Pattinson wrote: > Well, this really puts the cat amongst the pigeons. > My pip pin hole is circular as are many (its easier to make a cover > for them). Since a circular hole is more "efficient" circumference > wise (as opposed to a rectangle) the circumference of mine aint big enough. > > PFA have advised not to modify them to meet the criteria but to wait > for the revised design - oh and most importantly "Do not fly the aircraft". > > For those that may have a similar problem the formula is Circumference > is 3.142 x diameter. Area is 3.142 x radius squared. > > Limits are > > Base of recess must be more than 170 sq mm Circumference of recess > must be more than 125mm > > Also recess must have at least 2 layers of bid and must have flox > corners at the join with the tailplane skin. > > A one inch (25mm) diameter pip pin recess fails the above criteria - > Area 490sq mm - Circumference only 78mm. > > What a bummer. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mike Gregory > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 20, 2007 4:58 PM > *Subject:* Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS > > *To all Listers* > > *Please see the updated safety bulletin on the PFA web site - see > link below.* > > *Mike* > > *Europa Club Safety Officer* > > *EUROPA SAFETY ALERT UPDATE!* > > EUROPA SAFETY BULLETIN RAISED TO *ISSUE 2* TO INCLUDE FURTHER > GUIDANCE ON ACCEPTANCE DESIGNS OF PIP-PIN RECESSES IN TAILPLANES. > > Europa Flight Safety Bulletin 006 > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matro > nhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > * > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 13:12 13:12 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:39 PM PST US From: "Jeremy Davey" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS Graham, Reading between the lines (and therefore subject to the proviso that my reading may be wrong), I interpret the directive as being about the ability of the layup in the hole to bond to the bush, not about the effect on the strength of the stabilator skin. I will refrain from inferring from the directives the direction of the AAIB investigation, although I suspect it is clear to many of us. Regards, Jeremy -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: 20 June 2007 22:43 Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS Carl I moght be wrong but I would not have grounded you. The smaller the circumference the stronger the hole surround? Graham Carl Pattinson wrote: > Well, this really puts the cat amongst the pigeons. > My pip pin hole is circular as are many (its easier to make a cover for > them). Since a circular hole is more "efficient" circumference wise (as > opposed to a rectangle) the circumference of mine aint big enough. > > PFA have advised not to modify them to meet the criteria but to wait for > the revised design - oh and most importantly "Do not fly the aircraft". > > For those that may have a similar problem the formula is Circumference > is 3.142 x diameter. Area is 3.142 x radius squared. > > Limits are > > Base of recess must be more than 170 sq mm > Circumference of recess must be more than 125mm > > Also recess must have at least 2 layers of bid and must have flox > corners at the join with the tailplane skin. > > A one inch (25mm) diameter pip pin recess fails the above criteria - > Area 490sq mm - Circumference only 78mm. > > What a bummer. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mike Gregory > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 20, 2007 4:58 PM > *Subject:* Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS > > *To all Listers* > > *Please see the updated safety bulletin on the PFA web site - see > link below.* > > *Mike* > > *Europa Club Safety Officer* > > *EUROPA SAFETY ALERT UPDATE!* > > EUROPA SAFETY BULLETIN RAISED TO *ISSUE 2* TO INCLUDE FURTHER > GUIDANCE ON ACCEPTANCE DESIGNS OF PIP-PIN RECESSES IN TAILPLANES. > > Europa Flight Safety Bulletin 006 > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > * > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:13 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS Jeremy thanks for that, the thing that bothers me, epoxy will not bond reliably to stainless steel. That's why the bushes are prone to coming loose. The only way we can get any secure bonding is by mechanical means. IOW saw cuts, drilled dimples etc. Graham Jeremy Davey wrote: > > Graham, > > Reading between the lines (and therefore subject to the proviso that my > reading may be wrong), I interpret the directive as being about the ability > of the layup in the hole to bond to the bush, not about the effect on the > strength of the stabilator skin. > > I will refrain from inferring from the directives the direction of the AAIB > investigation, although I suspect it is clear to many of us. > > Regards, > Jeremy ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:03 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: 180 turns William I wouldn't call it ignorance! There is no such thing as a silly question. (unless you already know the answer) First set up the stall strips to the factory spec which I think is in the Owners Manual (?) If one wing drops consistently raise the stall strip on the other wing in small increments until both wings drop at the same time. You could raise both stall strips to achieve a gentle mush at the stall but there will be a performance price to pay, as already someone said, increased minimum speed. Graham William Daniell wrote: > > Ah again displaying my ignorance..."properly adjusted stall strips". How do > you go about adjusting them? ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:43 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Europa incident - 180 turns After such a dire event it is natural to read many shots of well-meaning advice. Some of it (accompanied by 300 lines of former text) is good advice, some pure drivel. That story about a windmilling propeller MUST mean the engine is turning it because the energy to windmill otherwise is a terrible loss over a standing prop. I disagree with NEVER TURN BACK, having lost some good friends to a panic in a perfectly recoverable engine failure. Wait for it...... Someone mentioned checking the overrun area. Bang on. Only one wise writer seemed to mention the fifth thing is DROP THE NOSE. The first thing is finding out what's off the end of the runway. Nowadays Google is a perfect tool if personal sight won't do it. So ALWAYS KNOW WHAT'S OFF THE END. The second thing is EXPECT ENGINE FAILURE ON EVERY TAKE-OFF and know what you are going to do every tiny second of it. When it doesn't happen, relax slightly - you did the right thing. The third thing is - DON'T CLIMB AWAY TOO EARLY. Why did early jet drivers clean up and hold low all the way down the runway? Yup. You can easily zoom up and do what you have to, to get her back on terra firma with 220 knots clean. That was before ejection seats and hardhats. The fourth thing is MANOEUVRE TO ADVANTAGE OF CROSSWIND. Why insist on early climb-out right down the centreline if you don't have to? Why not climb slightly down wind so a turn into wind gives you lift advantage (admittedly not a great thing in a EUPA - but SOME advantage) - if it fits. That's why the fifth thing is drop the nose. The engine quits. Hey! Good thing I was ready. Fortunately I used all the runway I needed to get this 80 knots. The nose is already down - maybe 30 degrees down -that's a 45degree pitchover.. Good thing the field of wheat is slightly right. Lucky thing I chose to go slightly left when I got some height. Now I'm in the very best position to choose my fate, and might even save the aircraft. The NOSE DOWN move is the fifth thing because one should done the other four first................. And the 180 is the sixth thing. Happy motoring. Ferg ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 06:24:44 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: 180 turns This has been an interesting discussion. At some airports a 180 turn back and the possibility of making the runway (however remote it may be) might look awfully tempting compared to the near certainty of slamming against the sea of concrete and glass in front of you. I felt this way every time I departed from Chicago Midway and Toronto Buttonville. Take a look on your google maps. It would be a real tough choice to make if the fan quits. ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:50 PM PST US From: John & Paddy Wigney Subject: Europa-List: Re: 180 degree turn back Hi Jon, I endorse your comments. Paraphrasing Clint Eastwood, "Do you feel lucky, punk?" may be a good question to ask in the turn back situation. However, I believe that one should not even ask the question. One does not have enough time for questions. The message should be !!!"DO NOT TURN BACK"!!! I suggest that all pilots, Europa and otherwise, should practise the turn back at a safe altitude and I think that you will be surprised at the loss of altitude in a rehearsed situation. When it is unrehearsed, the altitude loss will always be worse for most pilots. If you make the wrong moves, the altitude loss will be catastrophic when a stall or spin bites you. A bent plane in the trees straight ahead which one can walk away from is always better than the violent alternative of a stall/spin at low altitude. Cheers, John N262WF, mono XS, 912S Mooresville, North Carolina ORIGINAL MESSAGE Subject: Europa-List: 180 degree turn back From: "JonSmith" Hi everyone! Its not often Im moved to write here I dont have any technical skills to offer (I just very gratefully make use of other peoples knowledge by reading this forum!) However, regarding this 180 degree turning back issue Im absolutely appalled at some of the comments Im reading here. I cant say this loudly enough or type it big enough: !!!DO NOT TURN BACK!!! Its a killer. It always has been and always will be. Theres no big mystery about it the SAFEST option will always be to land somewhere thats reasonably in front of you. Thats it said really; the rest of this message is just supporting material. Sure, landing ahead may well result in damage to the plane. But with a little skill and a little luck you should come away unscathed, and maybe the plane will too. Depends on the local situation. This is far far better than entering the roulette wheel of turning back, from which the consequences of losing.well we know that dont we? Lets look at Mr Average (me, you, all of us) in a worse case scenario. Climbing out at 60 kts - flaps still down (high drag) nose well up cos its a nice powerful plane with the latest prop, when the unthinkable happens at say 500 feet and totally unexpectedly the engine stops. By the time weve reacted to it the speed will have dropped to 55 kts or probably less. Then the penny drops and we smartly poke the stick forward and the nose thankfully starts to go down. Speed will still be lost as the nose is going down until some sort of gliding attitude is attained; only then will the speed loss trend be halted. If youre a switched on cookie and you reacted well to the surprise the speed will now be steady at about 50 kts but a lot less if youre not so sharp it might be 40 kts or less. Remember, nose high and power off rate of speed loss will be tremendous. What speed should we be aiming for in the subsequent glide? I dont know 60 kts seems a reasonable safe approach and landing speed. More if you need to manoeuvre significantly. To increase speed in order to obtain a safe gliding speed with the engine off, (and especially if the flaps are down) will need a much lower nose attitude lower than we would EVER use in normal circumstances and will use up a very great deal of height probably most of your original 500 feet. Just to get the plane flying safely again. Still going to turn back?? I promise you you will not make it!! The first golden rule is to get the bl**dy nose well down, keep it well down and monitor the speed carefully before any sort of manoeuvring is attempted. In the worse type of critical situation you can still achieve a lot with the plane under good control. If you lose control by not achieving and maintaining a safe speed everything will be lost. Incidently, this entire posting is not aimed at the Europa. Its relevant to every aeroplane there is. Were fortunate with the Europa in that we are slightly better off than many other planes because its such a great design with super easy handling and does have some degree of glide performance which might help reach a landing/ controlled crash site that many other planes wouldnt have the legs to reach. All aeroplanes glide like bricks, the Europa is just a slightly more streamlined brick. The Europa will stall and spin if badly handled, say in an unwise and badly managed turn back. Its only an aeroplane after all and all aeroplanes will stall and spin, at least every one Ive ever flown. Just a few comments on postings Ive read recently: First the most serious: Someone wrote that during their conversion training they were advised and demonstrated (BY A PFA COACH for goodness sake!!) that a turn back is possible in the Europa from 300 feet. If people are being taught things like this then it is of no surprise at all to me that these sorts of accidents are still happening as they have been for nearly 100 years. I dont know the person who advocates this practise and I dont really want to, but I feel this sort of advice has no place in modern day coaching. The person who wrote this post went on to say he intends to practise the manoeuvre again. PLEASE DONT. It sounds most dangerous. Firstly, heaven forbid, you might be tempted to attempt it for real, secondly just doing it under controlled simulated conditions sounds fraught with danger. It would be a real shame to become a statistic trying to practise this dangerous exercise. JUST LAND AHEAD! A real engine failure after take off will be totally unexpected and will place even the most experienced pilot ever in a totally alien environment with a huge workload. There will be a fraction of the normal human resources available to control the plane thats why any action taken must be kept as simple as possible. Incidently, pilot experience does not necessarily seem to be a factor. In fact a newly qualified PPL maybe "safer" because hopefully he will rely on his recent training and put the thing down straight ahead. An "old hand" may be more likely to "think" he is able to turn back where in reality - he can't. Ive read discussion about how individual aircraft of the same design (ie the Europa) have different stall/ spin characteristics from others of the same mark. Maybe, in fact quite probably, but irrelevant to this turn back discussion. Throughout any manoeuvring near the ground, whether during an unwise turn back or whatever you should be nowhere near stalling!! Thats just basic skill and handling. If the difference between one variant or another determines the possible successful outcome or otherwise of a situation DONT GO THERE!! Fly the aircraft properly; well balanced and at a safe speed and you will stay safe. People talk about slipping or skidding turns near the stall. DO NOT DO THIS NEAR THE GROUND. If you cannot manoeuvre near the ground without slipping or skidding and/or stalling then dont do it youve guessed it . Land ahead!! Ive read about Europa fuel tanks and their survivability. I dont know any of the technical bits but it seems to me to be an excellent, strong and well - positioned design. Ive flown a Piper Pawnee with the fuel tank sandwiched between the engine and the pilot, just ready for the engine to be pushed back into the tank. The Super Cub has the left wing tank header tank just above your toes. Ive flown the Falke motorglider with the tank just behind your head! Its got to go somewhere and the Europa seems to be at least as good as any of those! If an aircraft is to sadly stall/ spin into the ground then I dont think any type of fuel tank will survive this. Dont worry about the tank concentrate on flying safely instead and youll be fine! The Europa is a fine aircraft but it will bite back if mis-handled just like any other aircraft will. We must all strive to be safe and sensible and try not to let a plane bite us. Best wishes, sorry to ramble on got carried away! Jon Smith G-TERN ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:47 PM PST US From: Tim Ward Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS Graham, Tony K. conveyed some good advice when I did the sleeves. I drilled dimples or 'golfballed' the outer perimeter to increase the strength in the bond with the epoxy and rib. Tim -- Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton Christchurch. Ph. 64 33515166 MOB 0210640221 ward.t@xtra.co.nz ---- Graham Singleton wrote: > > Jeremy > thanks for that, > the thing that bothers me, epoxy will not bond reliably to stainless > steel. That's why the bushes are prone to coming loose. > The only way we can get any secure bonding is by mechanical means. IOW > saw cuts, drilled dimples etc. > Graham > > Jeremy Davey wrote: > > > > Graham, > > > > Reading between the lines (and therefore subject to the proviso that my > > reading may be wrong), I interpret the directive as being about the ability > > of the layup in the hole to bond to the bush, not about the effect on the > > strength of the stabilator skin. > > > > I will refrain from inferring from the directives the direction of the AAIB > > investigation, although I suspect it is clear to many of us. > > > > Regards, > > Jeremy > > > > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS From: Hello Graham "> the thing that bothers me, epoxy will not bond reliably to stainless > steel. That's why the bushes are prone to coming loose. > The only way we can get any secure bonding is by mechanical means. IOW > saw cuts, drilled dimples etc." Our accelerated stabilators had one of the inner bushings debond the first time fitting the TT. We took the "Europa Mutilation" route, went at the bushings from the bottom, cut grooves and rough sanded, first ply was Redux/BID and Redux/Flox covered in peel ply, and subsequent layers Aeropoxy. I garbage picked a thin wall Carbon Fiber oar from a rowing skull and connected the 2 bushings. Same procedure, Redux first ply, then Aeropoxy. My outer bushing got drilled right through the bottom by the accelerator with the oversize drill used for drain, thus the pip pin would not grab. Lakeland sent me next size pip pins, but I canned the whole idea of pip pins. I am using solid stainless cap head Allen shoulder screws (www.mcmaster.com type in stainless shoulder screws, then socket). I turned a threaded base which I knurled and got it stuck when reinforcing the outer bushing joint. For the top, I turned a smooth ID wall cup knurled on the OD, just large enough to accept 2 seals and got it stuck. The top receptacle and bottom threaded base is stuck well, in event the outer bushing debonded, this would hold the stabilators in place. I have no drain on bottom, just can see the head of cap screw that is flush with stabilator. The 2 seals I am certain would prevent the screws from ever backing out (also from water ingress), but I installed mini ball nose plunger to catch a grove on the screw (incorporated in the top receptacle) Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:41 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube pip pins From: Fred Klein Roger, With the PFA circular, there's a thriving discussion on the Europa-list on the subject of tailplane "play", particularly on the configuration of the hole for the pip pins and bearing on the TP6 bushing. My kit is an XS quickbuild and the pip pin holes and TP6 were done in the factory. At the surface of the tailplane skin, the holes are 40mm in diameter, but they taper in as depth increases and the 1/4" dia. hole is at the approximate center of what I'd describe as a hemisphere with an inside radius of 10mm rather than a flat surface. Need I have any concerns with this configuration? Also...I've fitted my torque tube w/ Mod 62 drive pins...I can't help but wonder if any consideration was given to bumping up the size of the pip pins to 3/8" dia. as well for the same reason (?) Though I'd like answers to my questions at some point, they are not time sensitive...I suspect that this tailplane flutter issue is square in front of you and has your full attention...at some point, I hope the factory will be able to settle everyone down with some solid pronouncements. Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS From: Fred Klein Ron, Looks like you've come up with a resourceful solution to a nasty problem. Do you have any additional pixs to illustrate your fix? Fred On Wednesday, June 20, 2007, at 09:21 PM, wrote: > Hello Graham > > "> the thing that bothers me, epoxy will not bond reliably to stainless >> steel. That's why the bushes are prone to coming loose. >> The only way we can get any secure bonding is by mechanical means. IOW >> saw cuts, drilled dimples etc." > > Our accelerated stabilators had one of the inner bushings debond the > first > time fitting the TT. > > We took the "Europa Mutilation" route, went at the bushings from the > bottom, cut grooves and rough sanded, first ply was Redux/BID and > Redux/Flox covered in peel ply, and subsequent layers Aeropoxy. > > I garbage picked a thin wall Carbon Fiber oar from a rowing skull and > connected the 2 bushings. Same procedure, Redux first ply, then > Aeropoxy. > > My outer bushing got drilled right through the bottom by the > accelerator > with the oversize drill used for drain, thus the pip pin would not > grab. > Lakeland sent me next size pip pins, but I canned the whole idea of pip > pins. I am using solid stainless cap head Allen shoulder screws > (www.mcmaster.com type in stainless shoulder screws, then socket). I > turned a threaded base which I knurled and got it stuck when > reinforcing > the outer bushing joint. > > For the top, I turned a smooth ID wall cup knurled on the OD, just > large > enough to accept 2 seals and got it stuck. The top receptacle and > bottom > threaded base is stuck well, in event the outer bushing debonded, this > would hold the stabilators in place. > > I have no drain on bottom, just can see the head of cap screw that is > flush with stabilator. The 2 seals I am certain would prevent the > screws > from ever backing out (also from water ingress), but I installed mini > ball > nose plunger to catch a grove on the screw (incorporated in the top > receptacle) > > Ron Parigoris > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:43 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS From: Hello Fred "Do you have any additional pixs to illustrate your fix?" A few more 1 of 2. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:43 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS From: Hello Fred "Do you have any additional pixs to illustrate your fix?" A few more 2 of 2. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:27 PM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS According to my inspector the other reason for the shape of the recess is to ensure the tailplane can not migrate sideways at all in the event of the outer tube becoming disbanded. It is important that the head of the pip pin is obstructed by the sidewall of the recess before the locating pins could become free in the root of the tailplane. He inspected my aircraft before this change to the bulletin and as mine also has circular recesses he suggested that the inboard side be filled up to ensure this would be achieved. Obviously this is now out of date and my aircraft is grounded like many others. Nigel Charles -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Davey Sent: 20 June 2007 23:41 Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS Graham, Reading between the lines (and therefore subject to the proviso that my reading may be wrong), I interpret the directive as being about the ability of the layup in the hole to bond to the bush, not about the effect on the strength of the stabilator skin. I will refrain from inferring from the directives the direction of the AAIB investigation, although I suspect it is clear to many of us. Regards, Jeremy -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: 20 June 2007 22:43 Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS Carl I moght be wrong but I would not have grounded you. The smaller the circumference the stronger the hole surround? Graham Carl Pattinson wrote: > Well, this really puts the cat amongst the pigeons. > My pip pin hole is circular as are many (its easier to make a cover for > them). Since a circular hole is more "efficient" circumference wise (as > opposed to a rectangle) the circumference of mine aint big enough. > > PFA have advised not to modify them to meet the criteria but to wait for > the revised design - oh and most importantly "Do not fly the aircraft". > > For those that may have a similar problem the formula is Circumference > is 3.142 x diameter. Area is 3.142 x radius squared. > > Limits are > > Base of recess must be more than 170 sq mm > Circumference of recess must be more than 125mm > > Also recess must have at least 2 layers of bid and must have flox > corners at the join with the tailplane skin. > > A one inch (25mm) diameter pip pin recess fails the above criteria - > Area 490sq mm - Circumference only 78mm. > > What a bummer. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mike Gregory > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 20, 2007 4:58 PM > *Subject:* Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS > > *To all Listers* > > *Please see the updated safety bulletin on the PFA web site - see > link below.* > > *Mike* > > *Europa Club Safety Officer* > > *EUROPA SAFETY ALERT UPDATE!* > > EUROPA SAFETY BULLETIN RAISED TO *ISSUE 2* TO INCLUDE FURTHER > GUIDANCE ON ACCEPTANCE DESIGNS OF PIP-PIN RECESSES IN TAILPLANES. > > Europa Flight Safety Bulletin 006 > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronh ref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > * > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:28 PM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS One thing that has been suggested in the past but I haven't seen mentioned this time is that, because the pip pins are there just to stop the tailplanes moving outwards, it is worth making the holes in the tubes slightly oval in a fore and aft plane. This ensures that the outer tubes do not take any of the pitching load which might cause them to disband. Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:08 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: 180 turns Hi! William D There should be a template of the wing profile in the appendix of your build manual which when produced in strong cardboard will provisionally locate the stall strip position to enable flight testing to fine tune the final fixing point. Mine shake the aircraft but good at the appropriate time, busy making decisions or not you couldn't ignore it! Regards Bob H G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell Sent: 20 June 2007 23:37 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: 180 turns Ah again displaying my ignorance..."properly adjusted stall strips". How do you go about adjusting them? ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:43 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS From: Fred Klein Ron...a picture's worth 1000 words...thanks, and I need a few more words: I take it the shoulder of the screws is what penetrates the TT and bushes, and both the CF tube and the embedded and threaded "base" you turned help to keep the outer bush bonded in place. Hey...it's gotta be late in NYC...go to bed! :-) Fred On Wednesday, June 20, 2007, at 10:23 PM, wrote: > Hello Fred > > "Do you have any additional pixs to illustrate your fix?" > > A few more 2 of 2. > > Ron Parigoris > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:16 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS Hi! Nigel If you will forgive me I'd say it slightly different:- "slotted radially in the top and underside of the torque tube" (less room for misunderstanding?) Regards Bob Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nigel charles Sent: 21 June 2007 07:01 Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS One thing that has been suggested in the past but I haven't seen mentioned this time is that, because the pip pins are there just to stop the tailplanes moving outwards, it is worth making the holes in the tubes slightly oval in a fore and aft plane. This ensures that the outer tubes do not take any of the pitching load which might cause them to disband. Nigel Charles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.