Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:20 AM - Re: Europa pip-pin recess (Carl Pattinson)
2. 12:55 AM - periscope depth.. (Miles McCallum)
3. 01:10 AM - Re: Europa pip-pin recess (Peter Jeffers)
4. 01:37 AM - Re: periscope depth.. (Brian Davies)
5. 01:41 AM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (karelvranken)
6. 01:51 AM - Re: Europa pip-pin recess (Jos Okhuijsen)
7. 02:15 AM - Re: PFA Safety Bulletins (Peter Jeffers)
8. 02:43 AM - Re: periscope depth.. (R.C.Harrison)
9. 02:48 AM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (nigel charles)
10. 03:21 AM - Re: Europa pip-pin recess (Jan de Jong)
11. 03:39 AM - Flutter? (William Harrison)
12. 04:05 AM - Re: Mods...Mods...Mods..! (William Harrison)
13. 05:49 AM - Re: Turns, trees and glider flying (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
14. 05:50 AM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS ()
15. 06:08 AM - Re: Mods...Mods...Mods..! (rampil)
16. 06:40 AM - Re: Mods...Mods...Mods..! (Peter Jeffers)
17. 07:33 AM - Flutter Note from Bud Yerly (rampil)
18. 07:37 AM - Re: Mods...Mods...Mods..! (rampil)
19. 08:11 AM - Re: Re: Mods...Mods...Mods..! (Peter Jeffers)
20. 08:20 AM - Re: Europa pip-pin recess (Jos Okhuijsen)
21. 10:47 AM - Re: Mods...Mods...Mods..! (rampil)
22. 02:31 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (Fred Klein)
23. 02:56 PM - Re: Europa Incident - 180 turns (Brian Davies)
24. 03:11 PM - Re: Mods...Mods...Mods..! (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
25. 04:38 PM - Re: Europa pip-pin recess (Jan de Jong)
26. 07:57 PM - Re: Profound sadness... (Finklea)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Europa pip-pin recess |
Hi guys,
I spoke to Andy Draper yesterday before the new directive was issued. He
told me it would be coming out though he didnt divulge the contents (nor did
we discuss the PFA's ongoing investigations). However I know that the PFA
are giving this matter their fullest attention and have been in in regular
contact with the AIIB.
Andy, Neville and Europa are currently working together to devise an
acceptable mod for the non standard pip pin recesses and I would guess this
will be published shortly.
Much as I am dissapointed that my upgraded Europa (Mod62) is still not
considered fit to fly, this process is in everybodys best interests and we
must accept it for ur own safety.
I would also mention the bulletin states that in the case of non compliant
pip pin recesses we should consult them (the PFA) on how to proceed. It may
be that they will clear certain designs once they have had the time to
assess them. After all, any change to the build manual design constitutes an
unapproved modification which could have unforseen consequences.
Carl P
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:39 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Europa pip-pin recess
> <steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com>
>
> I have just seen the updated safety bulletin and I suspect many of us will
> now find ourselves grounded as having non standard pip-pin recesses.
> I have looked at the new Issue 2 and using the calculations therein have
> calculated that
> 1) the base of the pip-pin recess needs to be at least 13mm by 13mm or a
> radius of 7.35mm and
> 2) the top recess to the skin needs to be either a square 31.25mm each
> side or a circle of 20mm radius. I suspect it is this latter dimension
> that is going to ground many of us as the nicely turned circular pip-pin
> recesses with built in covers are not likely to be that big.
> I have just checked mine and found it to be 14.5mm radius (29mm diameter)
> so I am grounded for the duration.
> Also if you have used plastic fittings without covering them with two
> plies of bid then this will also fail you.
> Any one else picked up on this dilemma?
> Steve Pitt
> G-SMDH Tri gear XS with 46 hours on the clock
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | periscope depth.. |
After something like 4 years absence, thought I'd pop my head up and
announce. back on the Flyer Europa taildragger build. Despite being
sidetracked by restoring an Auster, moving to Somerset, setting up a new
workshop, and getting into a flying bathtub (AE 100) rebuild, progress has
been made.
The main gear attachment structure is now bonded in (the piccy shows the
outer webs before bonding) and a little more glass, and a carbon strap let
into the skin between the legs, and it's complete... and that will be the
end of all the structural work.
The BRS parachute project has been abandoned (anyone want a new BRS1500?)
and the plan is to build a plain vanilla (VFR, fixed pitch) aeroplane.
all the best
Miles
Message 3
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| Subject: | Europa pip-pin recess |
Yep!!! 4 out of five a/c I have inspected in the last few days (including
my own) are now grounded.
Pete Jeffers
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Pitt
Sent: 20 June 2007 22:40
Subject: Europa-List: Europa pip-pin recess
I have just seen the updated safety bulletin and I suspect many of us will
now find ourselves grounded as having non standard pip-pin recesses.
I have looked at the new Issue 2 and using the calculations therein have
calculated that
1) the base of the pip-pin recess needs to be at least 13mm by 13mm or a
radius of 7.35mm and
2) the top recess to the skin needs to be either a square 31.25mm each side
or a circle of 20mm radius. I suspect it is this latter dimension that is
going to ground many of us as the nicely turned circular pip-pin recesses
with built in covers are not likely to be that big.
I have just checked mine and found it to be 14.5mm radius (29mm diameter)
so I am grounded for the duration.
Also if you have used plastic fittings without covering them with two plies
of bid then this will also fail you.
Any one else picked up on this dilemma?
Steve Pitt
G-SMDH Tri gear XS with 46 hours on the clock
13:12
13:12
Message 4
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| Subject: | periscope depth.. |
Welcome back Miles,
I hope you have standard pip pin recesses!
Brian Davies
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Miles McCallum
Sent: 21 June 2007 08:50
Subject: Europa-List: periscope depth..
After something like 4 years absence, thought I'd pop my head up and
announce. back on the Flyer Europa taildragger build. Despite being
sidetracked by restoring an Auster, moving to Somerset, setting up a new
workshop, and getting into a flying bathtub (AE 100) rebuild, progress has
been made.
The main gear attachment structure is now bonded in (the piccy shows the
outer webs before bonding) and a little more glass, and a carbon strap let
into the skin between the legs, and it's complete... and that will be the
end of all the structural work.
The BRS parachute project has been abandoned (anyone want a new BRS1500?)
and the plan is to build a plain vanilla (VFR, fixed pitch) aeroplane.
all the best
Miles
13:12
13:12
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS |
Nigel,
This is like treating the symptom and not the illness. The play comes from
the TP10 fixing on the torque tube. If the pip pin fixes well, the play is
tranferred on the glue of the TP6 in the foam! If there is any flutter then
you can imagine how long it will take before the TP6 comes untie.
Even with Ron's solution there is a need to eliminate the play on the
tailplanes.
I am sure Bob Harrisson is grining.
Karel Vranken
----- Original Message -----
From: "nigel charles" <nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 8:00 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS
>
> One thing that has been suggested in the past but I haven't seen
> mentioned this time is that, because the pip pins are there just to stop
> the tailplanes moving outwards, it is worth making the holes in the
> tubes slightly oval in a fore and aft plane. This ensures that the outer
> tubes do not take any of the pitching load which might cause them to
> disband.
>
> Nigel Charles
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Europa pip-pin recess |
Missed so far any talk aout the club modification: "Improved TP5 and TP6
Sleeve Retention
PFA mod 10672
Did that and trust it to very rigid.
Comments please?
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
--
http://www.europaowners.org/kit600
Message 7
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| Subject: | PFA Safety Bulletins |
Hi Mike,
It would be a great scheme if we have a serviceable aircraft by then. On
second thoughts it is not far to drive and I would not need to do battle
with the bumps.
Pete
PS keep me informed
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of m.clews
Sent: 16 June 2007 08:36
Subject: Re: Europa-List: PFA Safety Bulletins
David,
How's about a Europa Club fly-in to White Waltham, to try out bumpy runway
techniques, sometime in July/August.
We've a very large grass field,good bar and restaurant (might get a 50%
reduction in landing fees) and would be very welcoming!
Mike Clews
co-ordinator Royal Berks Strut
Europa G-OMIK
12:50
14:18
Message 8
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| Subject: | periscope depth.. |
Miles, Welcome back!
My God you pick your times don't you !
Regards
Bob h G-PTAG
Do not archive.
Message 9
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| Subject: | RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS |
>This is like treating the symptom and not the illness. The play comes
from
the TP10 fixing on the torque tube. If the pip pin fixes well, the play
is
tranferred on the glue of the TP6 in the foam! If there is any flutter
then
you can imagine how long it will take before the TP6 comes untie.<
I agree that the problem starts with the fixing of the TP10's. However
the design of the pip pin recess is still important. A small amount of
relative movement between the tailplanes (caused by the less than
perfect fixing of the TP10's) is not in itself dangerous. Neither is
disbonding of the TP6's by itself. What is dangerous is if the
tailplanes move outwards allowing them to disconnect from the TP10 pins.
If the TP6 becomes disbonded (by for instance twisting loads) it is
possible in some cases for the tailplane to move outwards sufficiently
for the tailplane to become disconnected from the TP10 pins. The size
and shape of the recess is important in this respect. A recess sidewall
which is close to the pip pin head on the inboard side can prevent
outward movement of the tailplane whilst the pip pin is in place even if
the TP6 is disbonded.
Although flutter has been mentioned (and can be a very dangerous
condition), a possible cause of this inflight loss of control is a
tailplane moving outwards enough to become detached from its TP10 pins.
Regardless of the TP10 fixing it is important that this is not allowed
to happen.
I know that the PFA is looking at a modification to the pip pin recess
so we will just have to wait to see what they come up with.
Nigel Charles
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Europa pip-pin recess |
Hallo Jos,
I did the same thing. Locked both TP6 and TP5 in 3 layers of bid tube
before bonding tube into place with flox and bid laps. TP6 and TP5
deeply scored beforehand using dremel cutting disk. I am confident that
TP6 will not go anywhere.
Dutch CAA requires all mandatory mods executed for CofA. Finnish CAA no
different I presume.
So I hope that PFA will bless at some point.
Jan de Jong
#461, making slow progress.
Message 11
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Thanks, Mike.
That was my guess - a year before we can read it.
At the moment, the PFA are taking a scattergun approach to checking
anything they can think of which might contribute towards tailplane
flutter (what else can they do in the circumstances?). In addition,
the wording is still couched as "..may have been caused by flutter".
Although I have no doubt that the eventual findings will be
thoroughly researched, I expect others may share my impatience that
the precise failure mode is not yet known with certainty: was it
really initiated by tailplane flutter? if so, precisely which factor
or combination of factors led to the flutter? What else could lead to
the whole tailplane detaching?
As an aside, are there any aerodynamcists out there who can guide the
rest of us about fluttering systems where there is backlash present?
Is knowledge of these based on art, science or black art? Likewise,
is there anyone out there who knows what flutter was ever experienced
with the early prototypes, or indeed with later machines?
One other thing. I heard on the grapevine that the accident aircraft
was returning from some pretty invasive maintenance when it crashed.
Does anyone know what the maintenance was and therefore what parts of
the airframe were "disturbed"?
Willie
On 19 Jun 2007, at 20:54, Mike Gregory wrote:
> Willie
>
>
> Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the PFA, told me last Friday
> that the AAIB were unlikely to publish anything soon, when I asked
> that specific question.
>
>
> AAIB reports normally take many months. For example, the report on
> the crash of N8027U at Kemble on 25th March 2005 was published in
> early 2006.
>
>
> The AAIB do, however, keep in close touch with the regulatory and
> airworthiness authorities and provide them with preliminary
> information as to the likely cause, especially where there is
> preventative action such as inspection, change of operating/
> handling instructions or potential modifications which may improve
> safety.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Harrison
> Sent: 19 June 2007 18:59
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
>
> Brian and Mike (G)
>
>
> Any idea when we can expect the full AAIB report on the UK accident?
>
>
> Willie
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2007, at 18:15, Brian Davies wrote:
>
>
> Raimo,
>
>
> When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that
> includes a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and
> accidents plus a number of related incidents that have significance
> to our aircraft type e.g composite construction issues.
>
>
> Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec.
>
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
> Sent: 19 June 2007 15:37
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
>
> When I practised Europa emergency landings
>
> with standing prop my height was 1000 feet
>
> from the ground when in downwind.
>
>
> I keeped it clean until over landing place in final.
>
> So I could be sure to reach estimated target.
>
>
> Any lower and I would not feel comfortable.
>
>
> Raimo; no Europa-experience much yet but building it fast
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Paul Boulet
>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:11 PM
>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
>
> Hi all;
>
> Just my 2 cents. I must stress how important it is to fly the 180
> with your prop windmilling (insanity to shut the engine down). I
> owned a Cessna 172 for many years and at altitude practiced the
> turn back. You actually turn more than 180 degrees- something like
> 210 if I recall so that you can fly back to the runway. Then you
> have to turn 30 degrees in opposite direction to line back up with
> r-way centerline. In my Cessna I recall losing some 800 feet of
> altitude- possibly more (it's been awhile). Upon takeoff I would
> call out "decision height" even if no one else was listening as a
> reminder of whether I would control crash straight ahead... or turn
> back to r-way.
>
>
> Keep the shiny side up;
>
>
> Paul Boulet, N914PB, Maliboulet, California
>
> Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
>
> It is very human and natural reaction to turn back
>
> and try to save the plane and make a day.
>
>
> If you land straight ahead you will probably survive
>
> but your beautiful plane will be broken more or less.
>
>
> If you turn back you may get killed but if everything
>
> goes well, you will fly again in the same day
>
> (after refueling or what so ever).
>
>
> What a problem to make decision in a few seconds.
>
> Break your baby or take a risk of death.
>
>
> Personally, I have decided not to turn back in any case
>
> below 600 feet (engine quit situation). Of course I am
>
> not sure can I keep my decision in a real life case.
>
>
> After this once-again-sad-Europa-accident I noticed
>
> I will definetely not to tell it to my wife any more.
>
> This is too much. This is not fun. This is a bad shadow.
>
>
> There are let=B4s say couple of hundreds of flying Europas.
>
> How many of them are destroyed until this day during the years?
>
> 5% ? 10% ?
>
>
> I would like to see a list of accidents. I wanna study the mechanisms.
>
> Maybe this kind of list could save a soul or couple. Europa safety
> officer?
>
>
> What about RV`s - how many serioush accidents in a year?
>
> What about comparison with certified aircrafts?
>
>
> This is how I learned to fly Europa: I keep the speed nailed to 75
> knots MINIMUM.
>
> in every phase of landing circuit. There is a good reserve against
> gusts and failures.
>
> When landing it is 75 knots until ground effect and height about 3
> feets.
>
> Then slowing until stalling to the ground. Also my minimum climbing
> speed is 75 knots.
>
> With that speed I have managed to land to the "runway" 300 m /1000
> feet.
>
>
> I did also some emergency landings with standing prop (it stopped
>
> windmilling below 80 knots in my case [912S & Warp Drive]).
>
> Sidewind 90 degrees was 9 knots but runway was in that case giant.
>
> Ground loop was very near - tail wheel marked the asphalt with
> black rubber and was screaming.
>
>
> Regards, Raimo
>
> ============
>
>
> Raimo M W Toivio
>
>
> OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, test flying, 11 hours & 41 succesful
> landings
> OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, engine overhauling
> OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
>
>
> 37500 Lempaala
> Finland
> tel + 358 3 3753 777
> fax + 358 3 3753 100
> gsm + 358 40 590 1450
>
>
> raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
> www.rwm.fi
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: William Harrison
>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:22 PM
>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
>
> Carl,
>
>
> Yes, below some magic height the 180 turn back will be a killer in
> any aircraft, but different for every aircraft. Above that height
> it might be a lifesaver. So, what is the height for various
> permutations of airspeed, flap, weight, prop status etc?
>
>
> I can only say that I was always able to do a safe 180 at 75kts,
> flaps up (trigear, 100HP) in about 250 feet when I practised.
>
>
> When it all goes quiet, we don't have long to think about it so a
> personal rule of thumb about when and when not to attempt a turn
> back is worth deriving in advance from the comfort of our armchairs.
>
>
> What other views/data has anyone got?
>
>
> Willie
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2007, at 11:54, Carl Pattinson wrote:
>
>
> Based on my experience of takeoff in the Europa (we only have the
> 80hp Fixed pitch) airspeed will only be in the region of 65 knots
> at this stage flaps down (we dont retract the flaps till 500
> feet) .The steep bank that would be required for a 180 degree turn
> at such a height would almost certainly result the inboard wing
> stalling with inevitable results.
>
>
> Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low
> height will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under
> 500 feet and the only safe option is to land sraight ahead -
> sometimes a 90 degree turn may be possible if the field is large
> enough.
>
>
> While its impossible to predict the outcome of landing ahead even
> in shrub or bush the likelyhood is that the occupants of a Europa
> crash would walk away from it. Such a crash occurred about three
> years ago in Alderney - (Channel Islands) and the occupants
> survived with few injuries.
>
>
> Carl Pattinson
>
> G-LABS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: William Harrison
>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:56 AM
>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
>
>
> Who knows what all the factors were in this tragic incident.
> However, it highlights the issue of turning back to the runway.
> John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, told/
> showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet (much
> lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think I'll
> practise a few more times.
>
>
> The early news reports suggested that the crash aircraft was
> between 200 and 300 feet when it turned back.
>
>
> Willie
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2007, at 01:45, Tom Friedland wrote:
>
>
> A bit of information. Ken was very experienced and an airforce
> c-130 pilot/instructor. He flew his Europa frequently like once a
> week.
>
>
> He took off West into the prevailing wind and to the West there is
> a large golf course under the approach to the runway. The crash
> site is between the runway and the golf course.
>
>
> It seems strange. A pilot with his experience and one would think
> if he had an engine failure that he would elect the natural
> emegency site ahead. Can that mean that there was a control
> failure or perhaps a sudden medical cause? We may never know.
>
>
> Tom
>
>
> On 6/18/07, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
> Dave and Dale,
>
> I offer my most sincere condolences to you and all the friends and
> family of Ken Hill and his passenger. Since you two appear to have had
> personal relationships with Ken, I hope you will continue to share any
> information on the accident with the Europa community.
>
> Fred
>
> >
> > After reading about the crash, I called my friend Ken Hill who flies
> > out of Livermore. His wife Sandy, who was sobbing, told me it
> was,
> > in fact, her husband Ken who had died in the crash. Ken was a
> > terrific guy, former military pilot with a lot of hours. Another
> > terrible loss.
> > Dale Hetrick
>
> On Sunday, June 17, 2007, at 09:44 AM, David DeFord wrote:
>
> > Mike,
> >
> > Ken had long range tanks, which could have been installed at the
> time
> > of the crash. Here is a description of the tanks, which he posted
> > about a year ago:
> >
> > The tanks are 6 gal. Evinrude Johnson "Duratank" from the local boat
> > dealer. I use quick disconnect fittings from Europa and the pump is
> > Facet 40105 from Aircraft Spruce. The tanks are strapped to the wing
> > tie bar for restraint.
> >
> > I last saw Ken's airplane in his garage about a year ago, not long
> > after his return from a long trip, and the tanks were in the
> airplane
> > at that time. Whether he left them thereat all times, I don't know,
> > nor can I comment on the crash worthiness of the tie-downs he
> used to
> > hold them in place. I am only suggesting that the fire in this
> > accident might not be representative of what is likely to happen to
> > other Europas in a similar crash. (Third-hand accounts I have heard
> > of the accident say that the impact was nearly vertical.)
> >
> > Dave DeFord
> > N135TD
>
> --
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>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhref="http://
> forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://
> www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://
> forums.matronics.com
> - The Europa-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-
> space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-
> List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-
> converted-space"> --> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
> Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://
> forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://
> www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://
> forums.matronics.com
> 18/06/2007 15:02
>
>
> - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-
> space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ========================
> ========================
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Mods...Mods...Mods..! |
A certain PFA inspector approved the permit renewal on my aircraft, 2
weeks before I bought it, when it had 1 inch of play at the tailplane
trailing edges. The plane flew just fine, apparently, with no sign of
flutter, but fortunately my own inspector was quick to spot the fault
and insist that I sorted it before further flight.
You can draw your own conclusions about whether a recent annual
guarantees that the backlash is within limits, or indeed has been
measured.
Don't know, however, if it is fair to generalise about the lack of
flutter - maybe an inch of backlash combined with ANO factors is what
can start a flutter???
Willie Harrison
On 20 Jun 2007, at 23:38, R.C.Harrison wrote:
> Hi! /all
>
> =46rom where I=92m standing having not flown my own a/c for over a
year
> and nearly got my new 914 installed it looks like there=92s lots of
> =93headless chickens=94 running round.
>
> I recall a certain statement from the past which went something
> like =85..=94knee jerk=94 !
>
> I don=92t believe that the amount of slop between Williams Tail
> planes has been reported yet, from the annual inspection he had
> only a matter of about an hour earlier to his accident. Perhaps
> this would be a useful base line to consider first ? BTW I hadn=92t
> sold him any Torque Tube clamps.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG now been grounded for 13 months and counting !
>
>
> Do not archive.
>
>
> Robt.C.Harrison
>
>
> ========================
> ========================
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Turns, trees and glider flying |
In a message dated 6/21/2007 2:59:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
europa-list@matronics.com writes:
Greetings Team,
John, It's worth perhaps making the point that trees make a fairly
reasonable place to land in an emergency. Over 90% of those force landing in
trees survive - beats landing in a housing estate or spinning into hard
ground. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
Words of wisdom, David, but every departure situation is different, every
airplane is different and every pilot is different. Unfortunately, there isn't
a "one size fits all" solution to the issue of engine failure on take off.
Being a tow pilot, I have had A LOT of practice, far more than the average
pilot, doing take offs and landings in a wide variety of conditions. Having done
a couple of thousand glider tows out of TN89 in my Pawnee, I've had a lot of
time to think about where I'd go in the event of an engine failure in a lot
of different weather conditions, both with and without a glider on tow.
In the case of my strip, the trees on what is the usual departure end of the
runway (due to prevailing valley wind flow) consist of a stand of about 100
yards (meters) wide and their bases are about 50' lower than the runway due
to the lay of the land. So, the trees I deal with daily are lower than typical
trees in the area as viewed from the runway level.
On the other side of the those trees is a 500-700 acre, pool table flat
river bottom field. Although it usually has a crop in it in all but the dead of
winter, I would much prefer to have a hard landing in corn or soybeans in that
field as opposed to picking leaves out of the trees at the end of the runway
and destroying my airplane. I have found that if I accelerate to 75-80 kts
in ground effect with the flaps up I can coast over and clear the trees easily
in my Europa with the extra speed from about 150' agl and make it into the
next field. If the engine quits before I reach this speed or altitude, yes,
I'm going to opt for the trees because I have no other choice. Trying to turn
back to the runway from lower than 150' in anything other than a hang glider
is a good way to demonstrate the flight characteristics of a lawn dart.
The Pawnee or Citabria we used to tow with are both much different from the
Europa because they have so much more drag than the Europa. Both the Citabria
and the Pawnee have much higher wing loading and thus much higher sink rates
without power than the Europa, too. I wouldn't even consider a 180 in either
lower than 800' agl and then only in calm conditions. Getting into the next
field in either would require at least 400' agl, so an engine failure in
either of these would likely result in some squirrel chasing.
You're right on. At our old airport in Illinois, we required at least a
glider
solo for anyone who wanted to learn how to fly. In most cases, they finished
the glider rating before transitioning to power. If I had my way, that would
be required of all pilots.
Jim Puglise A-283
I agree completely, Jim. Glider time should be required for all pilots,
perhaps even up through solo. I've said for many years that beginning power
pilots should be required to do at least 20 hours in gliders. That way, they learn
how to fly the airplane before they have to worry about managing systems
such as fuel, engine, electrical, etc. If nothing else, would-be power pilots
would learn how to use their feet. Many, if not most, of the power only pilots
I've flown with would wear a hole in their windshields if they had a yaw
string taped to it.
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS |
Hello Fred
"Ron...a picture's worth 1000 words...thanks, and I need a few more words:
I take it the shoulder of the screws is what penetrates the TT and
bushes, and both the CF tube and the embedded and threaded "base" you
turned help to keep the outer bush bonded in place."
The shoulder of the screw acts like a pin, instead of 2 balls to hold pin
in place I used threads (need a wrench for prying hands to remove). The
inner and outer bushings are glassed to plywood ribs. The CF tube is
glassed to each bushing and fillet that is holding bushing to rib. The
lower insert does not really help with bushing bond, it is glassed to CF
tube and rib fillet (perhaps helps a mini tad but not much). The top
receptical does not help bushing bond, it is bonded to recess and a bit of
CF tube on the bottom, and a flox ring on top bonds it to outer 2 UNI.
Sorry, not much in the way of more pictures, will try to describe:
1) First it is absolute imperative TP9 and two TP12s are well stuck to TT
TP4. You can search Archives "Ron Parigoris Torque Tube" for a description
how I made the fit right. Slop between TP4 TT and TP12 stabilator drive
arm, if enough will allow the pip pin, or in my case the shoulder screw to
begin to allow torque to be applied the the outer bushing. If built to
plans, the bond on the outer bushing is not tremendous robust, and if you
apply torque to it, it could easily debond where if no torque was applied,
it could have lived a happy life. Read the PFA procedure careful
describing wiggle of pip pins, they are trying to determine if torque is
being applied to outer bushing. Again if there was no motion between TP4
and TP12, the pip pins could not drive, only motion can allow the
undesirable drive. It is possible that there is motion but within
allowable limits. If this is the case it is possible you could debond the
outer bushing as described if the fit in the TT and outer bushing and pip
pin is tight. As described the only reason for the Pip Pin is to keep the
stabilator on the TT, and the TP12 drive arms engaged to the TP13 driven
bushings that are bonded into the root plywood rib. Just a side note my TP
13 bushings were bonded in place with rapid epoxy and only 50 % coverage
and also in the wrong position where the angle of attack was not the same
on both stabilators. Oval holes, well scuffed washer under the step on the
bushing and redux/Flox repaired. OK I hope not confusing too much, but the
pip pin only needs to contact to prevent any outboard movement. The fit to
the outer bushing can be fairly close and round, but the TT if radially
elongated (I did mine ~.020" each way) still will hold the Stabilator
inboard, but if motion developed between TP4TT and TP12 stabilator drive
arm, the TT elongated pip pin hole could not drive the pip pin (if less
than max. recommended motion) before the pin hit the side of the oval.
2) My "Mutilation" was done after my accelerated tailplanes were built.
The Redux used on metal first pass bonds a bit better than Aeropoxy. A bit
of flexibility that can allow things to load just a tad more even before
joint lets go. Idea is to make sure inner and outer bushings are well
stuck to plywood insert ribs. The club mod is a good one (although I still
like redux first pass on metal.) Connecting the bushings helps prevent
twisting forces from debonding. When only the inner bushing is taking the
full load when sliding on the stabilator to TT, there is a lot of force
due to leverage that can be applied to that lone bushing. The CF Rowing
skull oar has a very slight taper. The second the TT enters the CF it is
held from allowing this undesirable torque upon assembly, and it guides
the tip into the outer bushing.
3) OK so my inner and outer bushings are stuck to stabilator and each
other pretty good. If they stay stuck then the outer bushing is a fine
means to pin the stabilator to the TT. 006 pip pin recess dilemma is
trying to make sure that if the outer bushing debonded that the stabilator
was not allowed to move outboard and have TP12 drive arm pins, disengage
from the stabilator driven TP13 bushings by ensuring that the pip pin
recess is strong enough to take outboard forces. I am not certain about
the minimum base requirements if plans not followed exact, but I suspect
it is to help hold the outer bushing a bit better. I was able to contact
with my glass reinforcement/filled a little more than 1/2 the
circumferance of the bushing from the bottom, and my CF tube had half of
it sneak around by twisting it so it was reduxed to the top of the
bushing! On a new build following the Club Mod is pretty easy, on
completed stabilators it took a bit more creativity.
Even though my outer bushing is stuck pretty well, I made sure my bottom
threaded insert is stuck well to the outer plywood rib. My top receptacle
is stuck on the bottom pretty well on the BID of the pip pin recess, then
I filled with foam and left a space for a flox fillet to the top 2 UNI
plies that completed the top and left it flat except for a perhaps 3/8"
hole.
4) One more time, my shoulder screw goes through top receptacle, top of
outer bushing, through top of TT that is elongated .020" each side,
through the bottom of the TT that is elongated .020" each side, through
the bottom of the outer bushing, through CF tube and glass, and into
threaded bottom insert.
First means to hold stabilator on TT is shoulder screw to outer bushing
top and bottom and TT top and bottom.
If Outer bushing debonded second means is shoulder screw to upper
receptacle to both sides of TT and on bottom CF tube, glass and insert.
Hope this is clearer than mud?
Ron Parigoris
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Mods...Mods...Mods..! |
I don't think I had heard that there was a major inspection on the aircraft
immediately before the crash. Is it then not possible that the cause of the
mishap was the inspection, not flutter. My inspections tend to disturb hoses
and fittings, etc. and I try to be absolutely religious about restoring them
to baseline. Perhaps something might have been left untightened. It has
been know to happen - a good reason to the let the responsible mechanic
take the first flight after an annual!
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119815#119815
Message 16
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| Subject: | Mods...Mods...Mods..! |
Hi Folks,
Try this link if you have a strong constitution. Go to
HYPERLINK
"http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=33580"http://forums.flyer.co.uk/v
iewtopic.php?t=33580
Oh and if the person concerned would like some help with his or her problem
then please get in touch with me in confidence at HYPERLINK
"mailto:inspector@europaclub.org.uk"inspector@europaclub.org.uk.
Pete Jeffers
_____
14:18
14:18
Message 17
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| Subject: | Flutter Note from Bud Yerly |
Everyone,
I've been in communication with the FAA, John Wheeler and the Europa staff assisting
them where possible on the latest accidents.
In my aviation career I have lost too many fellow aviators, and the loss of Ken
and William hurt a lot.
One thing I have learned as an aviator, supervisor, and accident investigator,
we all must learn from these accidents.
The US Europa Fleet is not grounded but, it is imperative that we inspect our aircraft
ASAP.
Ira Rampil mentioned to me about the Matronics site, and normally I don't keep
up with it as I get plenty of emails of my own from builders. I was glad to see
the important emphasis you all have about the need to check our aircraft thoroughly
on pre-flights as well during building and periodic inspections.
In my building and flight testing, I have come across some great aircraft and some
in need of TLC. One thing that can kill without warning, is flutter. I've
included below an email discussion with Ron Parigoris about flutter:
It is absolutely imperative that you have your tailplane torque tube pins (TP-14s)
tight. Should the supplied pins not be absolutely tight, I ream the holes
and machine new pins to zero tolerance. I use dry ice to shrink the pins to
slide them in if necessary. ( A few firm taps is normally needed with warm pins)
Any movement between the stabs is cause to inspect and remedy. Europa
has the Mod 62 which enlarges the holes to 3/8 inch giving the careful builder
a chance to get firm stabs and reduce the load on the pins, minimizing the chance
of wear later on. Also, the TP-13 and TP-16 bushes for the drive pins and
trim tabs must be snug and well secured. Should flight be attempted with the
TP-16s missing, and or a sloppy torque tube or drive pin assembly, the trim
tabs could begin to flutter and the stab will cause such loads on the fuselage
and tailplane attach points that the aircraft could destroy itself. Remember,
the stabs are not individually balanced but are balanced via the torque tube
and mass balance arm. Imagine one stab fluttering exactly out of phase with
the other and the forces it would put on the fuselage. No glue joint or stiffening
can hold up to that!
On a side note, I have also notice two aircraft where the TS-05 was left with the
bearing nut loose. Again, a small amount of play in the TP-12 Drive Plates
due to loose TP-14s may cause a small flutter (all flutter is bad), and in combination
with a sloppy TS-05 the trim tabs can begin to oscillate out of phase
with one another because of the T shape of the TS-05 rocking up and down. Again,
causing the other stab to oscillate 180 degrees out of phase with the loose
one. A little flutter would eventually become big flutter and eventually
lead to inflight breakup. When checking movement on preflight and during inspections,
the stabs and trim tabs are fiberglass and you can bend the stabs and
get movement. I am talking about movement where you feel a definite bump as
the stabs move. Call it a jiggle check. The slight movement of the hinges on
the trim tab feels like a lot on the end of the trim tab. Hold your finger on
the hinge pin and then check for up/down slop of your bushings.
To have the luxury of a removable stab and wing, we then have the responsibility
to ensure all the parts which affix our controls and move them, are inspected
and 100% serviceable.
If you have not seen the PFA FSBs they are also posted on my customflightcreations.com
website. We will have more on the Europa website once reviewed by the
accident board.
As for the turning back to the runway. Speed is life. I'm committed to straight
ahead (+-15 degrees) until 600 feet. All my patterns have lead me to the conclusion
that an XS, with me flying it, won't make it back to the runway from
below 400 feet with a 3 second pilot delay time (yea, I'm old and slow). Practice
at altitude, fully loaded, and test yourself.
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations
US Europa distributer.
Phone: 813 653-4989
email: budyerly@msn.com
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119833#119833
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Mods...Mods...Mods..! |
Pete,
The aforementioned link is either a joke or a
serious run for the Darwin Award of 2007.
Regards,
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119835#119835
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Mods...Mods...Mods..! |
I am assured it is not a joke. I don't suppose they would even know what
the Darwin award was for!!!
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil
Sent: 21 June 2007 15:37
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mods...Mods...Mods..!
Pete,
The aforementioned link is either a joke or a
serious run for the Darwin Award of 2007.
Regards,
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119835#119835
14:18
14:18
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Europa pip-pin recess |
Hi Jan
With the club mod it sure feels and looks rigid, but i would like to see
some blessing after what happened anyway.
There is absolutely no play anywhere now. Will it stay that way?
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
http://www.europaowners.org/kit600
--
workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane
http://www.europaowners.org/kit600
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Mods...Mods...Mods..! |
All the better then to remove their DNA from the gene pool
And Now, back to Flight!
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119862#119862
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS |
Ron,
I first want to acknowledge you for taking the time and effort to
respond to my queries with such a thoughtful and nuanced explanation of
what you've done and why. Your willingness to do so creates the real
value I find in the forum discussions of so many critical life safety
issues.
Thanks so much,
Overall, you seem to have taken the bull by the horns in addressing the
apparent fragility of the bonds between the TP6 sleeve/bush, the
plywood insert, and foam...recognizing that your fix would be suspect
in the UK.
On Thursday, June 21, 2007, at 05:49 AM, <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
wrote:
> Just a side note my TP13 bushings were bonded in place with rapid
> epoxy and only 50 % coverage
> and also in the wrong position where the angle of attack was not the
> same
> on both stabilators.
Being alerted to your condition, I've mounted my stabilators
(factory-built in my accelerated XS kit) to the torque tube assembly
and have found that the trailing edges, as measured at the trim tab
hinge line, vary by .375 inches; this translates to an angle of 1.19
degrees; thus the AOA of my stabilators have a differential of that
amount which is troubling to say the least, not only from a visual
standpoint, but more importantly from an aerodynamic standpoint as a
potential contributor to flutter. I attribute this differential to the
misplacement of the TP13 bushes in the plywood inserts at the root of
the stabilator.
> Oval holes, well scuffed washer under the step on the
> bushing and redux/Flox repaired.
By "oval holes", I assume you're referring to the holes in the TT for
the pip pins. Since the TP13 bushes set the AOA of the stabilators, I
don't see how elongating the pip pin holes in the TT can "repair" this
problem. I find NO information in the build manual as to an acceptable
tolerance in the AOA between the two stabilators. The only fix I can
imagine would be to remove the TP13 bushes from one stabilator, fill
the void with flox, redrill for and replace the TP13 bushes so that the
two stabilators are in alignment with identical AOAs.
So all you guys w/ the "accelerated" XS kits: In your build (or now
that you're flying), have you found the same condition as I've
described above? If so, has it been remedied (how?), or has it been
ignored?...and is really no problem whatsoever?
(I'm always doing checks on my anal-retentiveness quotient.)
Input appreciated,
Fred
A194
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Europa Incident - 180 turns |
Quite a number of Europa Club members have asked for a copy of the club CD
that includes safety information. The club has decided to put this
information in the members only area of the club website so that it can be
accessible to all members and be regularly updated. Hopefully it will be in
place next week.
Brian Davies, membership sec.
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gamble
Sent: 20 June 2007 21:43
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
Hi Brian, I would appreciate a copy of the CD you mentioned if you still
have them.
Thanks and regards
Mike Gamble
XS mono #440
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:bdavies@dircon.co.uk"Brian Davies
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Incident - 180 turns
When someone joins the Europa Club I send a CD of useful data that includes
a number of AAIB and NTSB reports on Europa incidents and accidents plus a
number of related incidents that have significance to our aircraft type e.g
composite construction issues.
Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec.
_____
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?Europa-List
13:12
14:18
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Mods...Mods...Mods..! |
<<...."knee jerk....">>
But that is the process by which the PFA are able to negotiate and
sustain our airworthiness "freedoms" (or, depending on your perspective,
a relaxation from heavy-handed regulation).
Duncan Mcf
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: R.C.Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 11:38 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Mods...Mods...Mods..!
Hi! /all
From where I'm standing having not flown my own a/c for over a year
and nearly got my new 914 installed it looks like there's lots of
"headless chickens" running round.
I recall a certain statement from the past which went something like
..."knee jerk" !
I don't believe that the amount of slop between Williams Tail planes
has been reported yet, from the annual inspection he had only a matter
of about an hour earlier to his accident. Perhaps this would be a useful
base line to consider first ? BTW I hadn't sold him any Torque Tube
clamps.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG now been grounded for 13 months and counting !
Do not archive.
Robt.C.Harrison
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Europa pip-pin recess |
Hi Jos,
I am confident that the club mod will keep TP6 in place if it is never
required to do other than its intended job - keeping the stabilator from
sliding off TP4. The bid tube will in any case be a backup retainer
between inspections.
But an official blessing will be needed.
Regards,
Jan de Jong
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Profound sadness... |
Ken's passenger was Randy Tomlinson, an airforce pilot contemporary of Ken's.
Read this topic online here:
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