Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:23 AM - Re: Europa pip-pin recess (G-IANI)
2. 01:14 AM - Re: Europa pip-pin recess (Jos Okhuijsen)
3. 01:56 AM - taildragger pic (Miles McCallum)
4. 09:34 AM - Wikipedia's entry on flutter (William Harrison)
5. 09:48 AM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (Mark Burton)
6. 09:57 AM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (David Joyce)
7. 11:04 AM - Tailplane flutter etc (Laura Farmer)
8. 11:20 AM - Pip pins (Jerry Rehn)
9. 11:24 AM - glide ratio (Jerry Rehn)
10. 12:20 PM - Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (R.C.Harrison)
11. 12:20 PM - Re: Tailplane flutter etc (R.C.Harrison)
12. 12:21 PM - Re: Europa Incident (Fred Klein)
13. 12:44 PM - Re: Tailplane flutter etc (William Harrison)
14. 02:00 PM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Ron Jones)
15. 02:52 PM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Carl Pattinson)
16. 02:56 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (karelvranken)
17. 03:04 PM - Re: glide ratio (roger cullum)
18. 03:04 PM - Re: glide ratio (roger cullum)
19. 03:06 PM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Laptop JR)
20. 03:13 PM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Graham Singleton)
21. 03:18 PM - Re: glide ratio (Gilles Thesee)
22. 03:36 PM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Mike Gregory)
23. 03:43 PM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Karl Heindl)
24. 03:45 PM - Re: Re: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS (Graham Singleton)
25. 03:49 PM - Fuel selector valve location (Fred Klein)
26. 03:50 PM - Re: glide ratio (Peter Timm)
27. 03:51 PM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Graham Singleton)
28. 04:07 PM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Laptop JR)
29. 04:11 PM - Re: Fuel selector valve location (rampil)
30. 04:12 PM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Laptop JR)
31. 04:28 PM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Graham Singleton)
32. 04:28 PM - Re: glide ratio (Tom Friedland)
33. 04:40 PM - Re: Re: Fuel selector valve location (Fred Klein)
34. 06:13 PM - Re: glide ratio (Peter Timm)
35. 06:21 PM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Laptop JR)
36. 11:27 PM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? ()
Message 1
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| Subject: | Europa pip-pin recess |
Jan
I do not understand your reference to "an official blessing will be
needed. The Club mod is a fully approved PFA standard mod.
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Europa pip-pin recess |
Ian,
We do have the approved modification, so we do not have the standard,
probably too weak situtation.
I opted for this mod, because the original "looked" improvable.
How does this approved modification change the need for a a "standard" pip
hole and what other influences may there be?
If in the UK,would we be grounded too?
Regards,
http://www.europaowners.org/kit600
Message 3
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Oops... pic of the RV type taildragger attach structure on the list photo
server...
Miles
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| Subject: | Wikipedia's entry on flutter |
Dear All
Wikipedia has a small entry on flutter (see below). This refers to a
critical airspeed for a given system. It reminded me that on the only
occasion I flew an aircraft which fluttered (ailerons on a badly
rigged Jodel D9) there was a critical airspeed above which the
flutter started, below which it stopped (it never progressed to
anything more than a side to side shaking of the stick and we cured
it eventually by reducing the droop of the ailerons). Anyway, the
issue about a critical speed begs the following question: if, despite
all the measures we are all about to take to prevent flutter on our
Europas, it does start to happen again to one of us, would there be
time to arrest the flutter by smartly reducing airspeed before
catastrophic damage occurs?
In addition to the many other unanswered questions about William's
crash is this: Why did it happen WHEN it happened? If there was slop
somewhere in the system, it would presumably have built up slowly
over time, so why did it go catastrophic when it did? Someone said
yesterday, I believe, that the aircraft had just had its Permit
Renewal Inspection, which is normally followed by the test flight
including Vne dive. So, could it have been a speed-triggered flutter?
By the way, correspondence on this site some time ago about what Vne
really means revealed that some people do not regard the 165kts Vne
as a velocity never to be exceeded. Could the crash aircraft have
been going faster than 165kts? Or maybe it was just going a lot
faster than it had been for a year and that was enough.
The link to the story of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in the Wikipedia
entry is worth following. Also, worth watching the video link in the
same entry of the bridge fluttering towards its collapse - like a
slow motion version of a tailplane. The bridge was resonating in
torsion but other modes of vibration, including bending can be
involved. Can anyone comment on whether tailplane flutter is more
likely to involve torsional or bending motion (in the torque tube and/
or the fuseage)?
Willie Harrison
Flutter
Flutter in aircraft structures, control surfaces and bridge
engineering, aeroelastic flutter is a rapid self-excited motion,
potentially destructive, usually present above some limiting aircraft
speed
Flutter is a self-starting vibration that occurs when a lifting
surface bends under aerodynamic load. Once the load reduces, the
deflection also reduces, restoring the original shape, which restores
the original load and starts the cycle again. In extreme cases the
elasticity of the structure means that when the load is reduced the
structure springs back so far that it overshoots and causes a new
aerodynamic load in the opposite direction to the original. Even
changing the mass distribution of an aircraft or the stiffness of one
component can induce flutter in an apparently unrelated aerodynamic
component.
At its mildest this can appear as a "buzz" in the aircraft structure,
but at its most violent it can develop uncontrollably with great
speed and cause serious damage to or the destruction of the aircraft.
Flutter can also occur on structures other than aircraft. One famous
example of flutter phenomena is the Tacoma Narrows Bridge
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter |
Until we see the results of the AAIB investigation we can only speculate as to
what really happened.
However, regarding the flutter theory due to sloppy tailplanes, consider:
1 -- How many Europas are known to have suffered tailplane flutter and fallen to
pieces while flying?
2 -- How many Europas have rather sloppy tailplanes and have been flying like that
for some time (possibly years)?
I am not saying that we should not be checking/improving the integrity of the
tailplanes.
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120044#120044
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter |
William, At the PFA today I was told that the radar trace of William's plane
showed it was going at 90 knots or so. He would have done his Vne dive
somewhere on the way back from Cornwall - all very perplexing.
Did my Permit renewal test flying today and didn't like to ask
someone to come along as ballast/observer!
Regards, David Joyce
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Harrison" <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 5:31 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Wikipedia's entry on flutter
> Dear All
>
> Wikipedia has a small entry on flutter (see below). This refers to a
> critical airspeed for a given system. It reminded me that on the only
> occasion I flew an aircraft which fluttered (ailerons on a badly
> rigged Jodel D9) there was a critical airspeed above which the
> flutter started, below which it stopped (it never progressed to
> anything more than a side to side shaking of the stick and we cured
> it eventually by reducing the droop of the ailerons). Anyway, the
> issue about a critical speed begs the following question: if, despite
> all the measures we are all about to take to prevent flutter on our
> Europas, it does start to happen again to one of us, would there be
> time to arrest the flutter by smartly reducing airspeed before
> catastrophic damage occurs?
>
> In addition to the many other unanswered questions about William's
> crash is this: Why did it happen WHEN it happened? If there was slop
> somewhere in the system, it would presumably have built up slowly
> over time, so why did it go catastrophic when it did? Someone said
> yesterday, I believe, that the aircraft had just had its Permit
> Renewal Inspection, which is normally followed by the test flight
> including Vne dive. So, could it have been a speed-triggered flutter?
>
> By the way, correspondence on this site some time ago about what Vne
> really means revealed that some people do not regard the 165kts Vne
> as a velocity never to be exceeded. Could the crash aircraft have
> been going faster than 165kts? Or maybe it was just going a lot
> faster than it had been for a year and that was enough.
>
> The link to the story of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in the Wikipedia
> entry is worth following. Also, worth watching the video link in the
> same entry of the bridge fluttering towards its collapse - like a
> slow motion version of a tailplane. The bridge was resonating in
> torsion but other modes of vibration, including bending can be
> involved. Can anyone comment on whether tailplane flutter is more
> likely to involve torsional or bending motion (in the torque tube and/
> or the fuseage)?
>
> Willie Harrison
>
> Flutter
>
> Flutter in aircraft structures, control surfaces and bridge
> engineering, aeroelastic flutter is a rapid self-excited motion,
> potentially destructive, usually present above some limiting aircraft
> speed
>
> Flutter is a self-starting vibration that occurs when a lifting
> surface bends under aerodynamic load. Once the load reduces, the
> deflection also reduces, restoring the original shape, which restores
> the original load and starts the cycle again. In extreme cases the
> elasticity of the structure means that when the load is reduced the
> structure springs back so far that it overshoots and causes a new
> aerodynamic load in the opposite direction to the original. Even
> changing the mass distribution of an aircraft or the stiffness of one
> component can induce flutter in an apparently unrelated aerodynamic
> component.
>
> At its mildest this can appear as a "buzz" in the aircraft structure,
> but at its most violent it can develop uncontrollably with great
> speed and cause serious damage to or the destruction of the aircraft.
>
> Flutter can also occur on structures other than aircraft. One famous
> example of flutter phenomena is the Tacoma Narrows Bridge
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Tailplane flutter etc |
All,
F Y I ..... the AAIB called me today and told me they will be releasing a
"special bulletin" in approximately 10 day's time, presumably giving their
findings to date ?
He assures me that he will speak to myself and Paul's family, and William's
family before releasing it, but the recent findings were released to the PFA
before we were informed of them. We do, however, appreciate that you, as
aviators, need to be told as soon as anything is found.
Regards,
Laura Farmer
(Paul Sweeting's fiancee)
Message 8
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Since it appears we're looking for redundancy in the design of the pip pin
and its recess, why not just put a second pip pin through TP5, if that's
possible given the location? In some ways that may be easier and better than
redoing the pip pin recess at TP6. I have the PVC with screw in plug mod
which does not appear to meet the suggested requirements. I made all the
checks and have no play anywhere.
Jerry
Message 9
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Is there an average glide ratio for the Europa based on an average of
reports? Prop stopped and prop at idle? Thanks
Jerry
Message 10
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| Subject: | Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Hi! All
I'm sensitive to all eyes being focused but quite independently from
the present furore I have been asked where the original suggestion came
from re:- radially slotting the Tail plane pip pin holes to ensure they
imparted no drive but were only as retention pins.
My initial response was from a Europa Aircraft Tech Bulletin ..would
those who know for definite please confirm or otherwise.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
Message 11
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| Subject: | Tailplane flutter etc |
Hi! Laura.
You really are a saint in understanding where we are "coming from" at
this time of your adversity. Quite clearly Paul must have closely
involved you in all things flying.
Bless you and thank you.
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Laura
Farmer
Sent: 22 June 2007 19:03
Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter etc
All,
F Y I ..... the AAIB called me today and told me they will be releasing
a "special bulletin" in approximately 10 day's time, presumably giving
their findings to date ?
He assures me that he will speak to myself and Paul's family, and
William's family before releasing it, but the recent findings were
released to the PFA before we were informed of them. We do, however,
appreciate that you, as aviators, need to be told as soon as anything is
found.
Regards,
Laura Farmer
(Paul Sweeting's fiancee)
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Incident |
FYI, Ken Hill posted several photos of his ship on the matronics
photoshare about a year ago. His build appears to have been truly
outstanding...a "10" by my measure...and gives some perspective to the
temptation to avoid off-field emergency landings, sadly something to
NOT avoid "at all costs".
Included is a photo of his long range fuel tank set up, though not
informative w/ regard to how it may have been restrained.
Fred
A194
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter etc |
Thank you, Laura.
Please know that alongside our anxiety to understand the technical
issues in this dreadful accident, we are all of us aware of the human
loss which you and Paul's and William's families have suffered. Your
grace at this time is an example to all.
Best wishes
Willie Harrison
On 22 Jun 2007, at 19:02, Laura Farmer wrote:
> All,
>
> F Y I ..... the AAIB called me today and told me they will be
> releasing a "special bulletin" in approximately 10 day's time,
> presumably giving their findings to date ?
> He assures me that he will speak to myself and Paul's family, and
> William's family before releasing it, but the recent findings were
> released to the PFA before we were informed of them. We do,
> however, appreciate that you, as aviators, need to be told as soon
> as anything is found.
>
> Regards,
>
> Laura Farmer
> (Paul Sweeting's fiancee)
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Hi Bob,
Slotting the pip-pin holes in the torque tube was recommended to me by
Neville - in the presence of Ivan and Andy. It makes good sense and I
slotted mine about 1 mm in each direction. Thank goodness, I have no
free play anywhere but my pip-pin recesses are non-standard (but IMHO,
much better!)
Regards,
Ron Jones.
G-RJWX (XS 359)
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Several Europa pilots have commented on the fact that my pip pins are a
loose fit in the torque tube and advised I should drill them properly
and fit oversize pins. Fortunately I never got round to it which seems
to have been a blessing in disguise.
Another cause of the sleeves disbonding is transporting the tailplanes
on the Europa trailer. This places a direct strain on the TP6 sleeve,
much more that caused by flying or taxying over "rough ground".
I would suggest that if you trailer the tailplanes on the trailer,
regular checks of the TP6 sleeves would be a good idea.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Jones
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin
holes?
Hi Bob,
Slotting the pip-pin holes in the torque tube was recommended to me by
Neville - in the presence of Ivan and Andy. It makes good sense and I
slotted mine about 1 mm in each direction. Thank goodness, I have no
free play anywhere but my pip-pin recesses are non-standard (but IMHO,
much better!)
Regards,
Ron Jones.
G-RJWX (XS 359)
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS |
Nigel,
I can follow your explanation except when you write: "What is dangerous is
if the taiplanes move outwards allowing them to disconnect the TP10 pins."
TP10's are nylon tubes. You mean perhaps the pins on the TP12?
The pip pin recesses on F-PKRL were made conform the build manual, even
stronger.
The problem I would talk about is the play between TP12 and TP4.
TP4 and TP12 are delivered with holes. When you have to fix them together
with the nylon TP10 tubes then you have to drill very carefully to allow the
clevis pins to be installed. Afterwards I found that the play occured on
starboard side by moving the TP12 by the pins. The mass balance keeps the
TP4 easily in place. So port side no play. When I did the same test on Dirk
Oyen's OO-145, it gave the same result. Factory tolerance? Bigger holes and
clevis pins wasn't a solution (Rowland Carson). Others do have the same
problem hence the discussions: clamps or taper pins. Finally no definite
solution nor mandatory modification. The play measured at trailing edge may
not be more then 1/2". I will have no play at all. So if we are waiting for
a modification to keep a fluttering tailplane on board then I say: You treat
the symptom and not the illness.
Karel Vranken, F-PKRL waiting for next mod and if my problem is not
concerned then Bob Harrison may have an order from me.
----- Original Message -----
From: "nigel charles" <nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS
>
>>This is like treating the symptom and not the illness. The play comes
> from
> the TP10 fixing on the torque tube. If the pip pin fixes well, the play
> is
> tranferred on the glue of the TP6 in the foam! If there is any flutter
> then
> you can imagine how long it will take before the TP6 comes untie.<
>
> I agree that the problem starts with the fixing of the TP10's. However
> the design of the pip pin recess is still important. A small amount of
> relative movement between the tailplanes (caused by the less than
> perfect fixing of the TP10's) is not in itself dangerous. Neither is
> disbonding of the TP6's by itself. What is dangerous is if the
> tailplanes move outwards allowing them to disconnect from the TP10 pins.
> If the TP6 becomes disbonded (by for instance twisting loads) it is
> possible in some cases for the tailplane to move outwards sufficiently
> for the tailplane to become disconnected from the TP10 pins. The size
> and shape of the recess is important in this respect. A recess sidewall
> which is close to the pip pin head on the inboard side can prevent
> outward movement of the tailplane whilst the pip pin is in place even if
> the TP6 is disbonded.
>
> Although flutter has been mentioned (and can be a very dangerous
> condition), a possible cause of this inflight loss of control is a
> tailplane moving outwards enough to become detached from its TP10 pins.
> Regardless of the TP10 fixing it is important that this is not allowed
> to happen.
>
> I know that the PFA is looking at a modification to the pip pin recess
> so we will just have to wait to see what they come up with.
>
>
> Nigel Charles
>
>
>
Message 17
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>From: "Jerry Rehn" <rehn@rockisland.com>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Europa-List: glide ratio
>Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:22:37 -0700
>
>Is there an average glide ratio for the Europa based on an average of
>reports? Prop stopped and prop at idle? Thanks
>
>
>hi jerry,
i seem to recall seeing approx 500ft /min rate of descent at 75 knots best
glide speed clean when i was doing my conversion training with prop at idle
which equates to approx 15:1 in trigear G-OGAN ,bit better than the cessna i
fly at the moment.
best
regards andy cullum rebuilding/ converting to trigear G-CGDH
>Jerry
>
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 18
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>From: "Jerry Rehn" <rehn@rockisland.com>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Europa-List: glide ratio
>Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:22:37 -0700
>
>Is there an average glide ratio for the Europa based on an average of
>reports? Prop stopped and prop at idle? Thanks
>
>
>hi jerry,
i seem to recall seeing approx 500ft /min rate of descent at 75 knots best
glide speed clean when i was doing my conversion training with prop at idle
which equates to approx 15:1 in trigear G-OGAN ,bit better than the cessna i
fly at the moment.
best
regards andy cullum rebuilding/ converting to trigear G-CGDH
>Jerry
>
_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Ron and others
There must be some limit on the amount lengthening into slots -
otherwise the pip pin balls will ot have anything to grip on in the
radial direction.........?
JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Jones
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin
holes?
Hi Bob,
Slotting the pip-pin holes in the torque tube was recommended to me by
Neville - in the presence of Ivan and Andy. It makes good sense and I
slotted mine about 1 mm in each direction. Thank goodness, I have no
free play anywhere but my pip-pin recesses are non-standard (but IMHO,
much better!)
Regards,
Ron Jones.
G-RJWX (XS 359)
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Bob
the slots are in the torque tube only, not the TP6. Its the TP6 that
holds the pip pin in
Graham
Laptop JR wrote:
> Ron and others
>
> There must be some limit on the amount lengthening into slots -
> otherwise the pip pin balls will ot have anything to grip on in the
> radial direction.........?
>
> JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz
*
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 21
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roger cullum a crit :
> i seem to recall seeing approx 500ft /min rate of descent at 75 knots
> best glide speed clean when i was doing my conversion training with
> prop at idle which equates to approx 15:1 in trigear G-OGAN ,bit
> better than the cessna i fly at the
> moment.
>
Roger,
You mean A LOT better than a Cessna ;-)
Most light airplanes I'm aware of are more in the 750-1000 ft/min range.
15:1 finesse seems a remarkable value indeed. Was it a motorglider
version, or was the ship lightly loaded ? Or the idle setup very high ?
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 22
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| Subject: | Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Not so, because the pip pin balls will grip the bottom of the TP 6 sleeve,
which has holes that remains circular and reasonably close fitting. The
elongation is made to the holes in the torque tube so that it will not
impart a twisting couple to the pip pin and hence increase the risk of
disbonding the sleeve.
Mike
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Laptop JR
Sent: 22 June 2007 23:06
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
Ron and others
There must be some limit on the amount lengthening into slots - otherwise
the pip pin balls will ot have anything to grip on in the radial
direction.........?
JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron <mailto:jron.jones@tiscali.co.uk> Jones
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
Hi Bob,
Slotting the pip-pin holes in the torque tube was recommended to me by
Neville - in the presence of Ivan and Andy. It makes good sense and I
slotted mine about 1 mm in each direction. Thank goodness, I have no free
play anywhere but my pip-pin recesses are non-standard (but IMHO, much
better!)
Regards,
Ron Jones.
G-RJWX (XS 359)
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Carl, I can confirm the trailer aspect. Before first flight I towed my
Europa for 1000 km on bumpy Canadian roads. At the end of the trip the
inboard TP5's had worked themselves loose. I pulled them out and rebonded
them with floxed redux. No problems since then. But those vertical supports
on the trailer should never be used. I now carry the tailplanes in the back
of my car.
Karl
>From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
>Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 22:51:35 +0100
>
>Several Europa pilots have commented on the fact that my pip pins are a
>loose fit in the torque tube and advised I should drill them properly and
>fit oversize pins. Fortunately I never got round to it which seems to have
>been a blessing in disguise.
>
>Another cause of the sleeves disbonding is transporting the tailplanes on
>the Europa trailer. This places a direct strain on the TP6 sleeve, much
>more that caused by flying or taxying over "rough ground".
>
>I would suggest that if you trailer the tailplanes on the trailer, regular
>checks of the TP6 sleeves would be a good idea.
>
>Carl Pattinson
>G-LABS
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ron Jones
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 9:58 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
>
>
> Hi Bob,
> Slotting the pip-pin holes in the torque tube was recommended to me by
>Neville - in the presence of Ivan and Andy. It makes good sense and I
>slotted mine about 1 mm in each direction. Thank goodness, I have no free
>play anywhere but my pip-pin recesses are non-standard (but IMHO, much
>better!)
> Regards,
> Ron Jones.
> G-RJWX (XS 359)
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Win tickets to the sold out Live Earth concert! http://liveearth.uk.msn.com
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: RE: EUROPA PIP-PIN RECESS |
Karel
You are right about treating symptoms. I too am still very puzzled about
the cause of William's accident. There are certainly a lot of Europas
around with 1/2" of looseness in the tailplanes. This arises from that
rather unwise requirement to drill the TP 10s through the torque tube
and the TP4s. imho that is where most of this particular problem starts.
The other problem is the security of the TP6 bush which is required to
keep the tailplane in place. It can come loose from more than one cause.
Slop in the TP12 allowing hammering while taxying on rough ground.
Damage caused during derigging or on the trailer.
I suspect this unhappy situation is, like most accidents, the result of
more than one factor combining to produse an accident.
I do find it incredible that it was possible to pull the wings off at 90
kts.( But then I haven't done the sums.)
Graham
karelvranken wrote:
> <karelvranken@hotmail.com>
>
> Nigel,
> I can follow your explanation except when you write: "What is dangerous
> is if the taiplanes move outwards allowing them to disconnect the TP10
> pins." TP10's are nylon tubes. You mean perhaps the pins on the TP12?
> Others do have the same problem hence the discussions: clamps
> or taper pins. Finally no definite solution nor mandatory modification.
> The play measured at trailing edge may not be more then 1/2".
> Karel Vranken,
Message 25
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| Subject: | Fuel selector valve location |
The ergonomics of the location of the fuel selector as called for in
the manual seem to be less than optimal.
I'm wondering if anyone has changed its location(?)...say to the top of
the tunnel where viewing it and manipulating it might be better.
Or have others investigated this and its impact on other systems and
decided to let well enough alone?
Fred
A194
--
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dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 26
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on 07/6/22 3:04 PM, roger cullum at rsc-93@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> From: "Jerry Rehn" <rehn@rockisland.com>
>> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Europa-List: glide ratio
>> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:22:37 -0700
>>
>> Is there an average glide ratio for the Europa based on an average of
>> reports? Prop stopped and prop at idle? Thanks
>>
>>
>> hi jerry,
> i seem to recall seeing approx 500ft /min rate of descent at 75 knots best
> glide speed clean when i was doing my conversion training with prop at idle
> which equates to approx 15:1 in trigear G-OGAN ,bit better than the cessna i
> fly at the moment.
> best
> regards andy cullum rebuilding/ converting to trigear G-CGDH
>> Jerry
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>
Jerry and all,
my Classic Mono, with feathering Airmaster prop and two up, sinks at close
to a 1000' per min. with the engine off. When feathering is complete the
sink-rate settles at 350' per min. at 87 knots and the glide ratio is
considerably better than some of the gliders I used to fly in my youth.
Mind you, an engine failure shortly after take-off would not leave time for
anything other, than getting the nose down and looking for a suitable place
ahead. I have not tested the sink-rate or glide with flaps and gear down
yet.
BTW, we did not bother to re-start the engine and slipped off the excess
altitude on final, followed by an uneventful dead-stick landing.
Try it, it's fun
Peter Timm, #110, C-GIET, 340 hrs.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Bob
the slotting was circumferential wasn't it? Anyway, you are right, it
was factory recommendation
Graham
R.C.Harrison wrote:
radially slotting the Tail plane pip pin holes to ensure they
> imparted no drive but were only as retention pins.
>
> My initial response was from a Europa Aircraft Tech Bulletin .
> Bob H G-PTAG
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Thank you Mike Gregory
I should have reviewed the drawings before making a noise!
JR Bob Gowing UK Kit 327
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Gregory
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 8:35 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin
holes?
Not so, because the pip pin balls will grip the bottom of the TP 6
sleeve, which has holes that remains circular and reasonably close
fitting. The elongation is made to the holes in the torque tube so that
it will not impart a twisting couple to the pip pin and hence increase
the risk of disbonding the sleeve.
Mike
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Laptop JR
Sent: 22 June 2007 23:06
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin
holes?
Ron and others
There must be some limit on the amount lengthening into slots -
otherwise the pip pin balls will ot have anything to grip on in the
radial direction.........?
JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Jones
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin
holes?
Hi Bob,
Slotting the pip-pin holes in the torque tube was recommended to me
by Neville - in the presence of Ivan and Andy. It makes good sense and I
slotted mine about 1 mm in each direction. Thank goodness, I have no
free play anywhere but my pip-pin recesses are non-standard (but IMHO,
much better!)
Regards,
Ron Jones.
G-RJWX (XS 359)
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selector valve location |
Fred,
Most of the Europas I have seen in the States have the selector on the
top of the tunnel. I did mine that way at the suggestion of Russ Lepre
of FlightCrafters.
Two reinforced, glass L brackets hold an Andair valve to the tunnel
bottom
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120130#120130
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
OK Graham and any others coming later -
I opened my mouth too quickly and regret wasting everyone 's time.
JR and do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> Bob
> the slots are in the torque tube only, not the TP6. Its the TP6 that holds
> the pip pin in
> Graham
>
> Laptop JR wrote:
>> Ron and others
>> There must be some limit on the amount lengthening into slots -
>> otherwise the pip pin balls will ot have anything to grip on in the
>> radial direction.........?
>> JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz
> *
>
> --
> Graham Singleton
>
> Tel: +441629820187
> Mob: +447739582005
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
No worries mate!
btw Kingsley was here a few days ago, he checked out my new house for me!
Graham
Laptop JR wrote:
>
> OK Graham and any others coming later -
>
> I opened my mouth too quickly and regret wasting everyone 's time.
>
> JR and do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton"
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 8:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
>
>
>> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>>
>> Bob
>> the slots are in the torque tube only, not the TP6. Its the TP6 that
>> holds the pip pin in
>> Graham
>>
>> Laptop JR wrote:
>>
>>> Ron and others
>>> There must be some limit on the amount lengthening into slots -
>>> otherwise the pip pin balls will ot have anything to grip on in the
>>> radial direction.........?
>>> JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz
>>
>> *
>>
>> --
>> Graham Singleton
>>
>> Tel: +441629820187
>> Mob: +447739582005
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 32
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Hi Peter
Please correct my math... sink rate of 350'/min @ 87kts gives a glide ration
of 25:1... Something must be wrong with my calculations...
That surely is as good as many gliders??
How's the weather? I should get there Sunday later in the afternoon am
getting excited.
Tom
On 6/22/07, Peter Timm <cptimm@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
> on 07/6/22 3:04 PM, roger cullum at rsc-93@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: "Jerry Rehn" <rehn@rockisland.com>
> >> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> >> Subject: Europa-List: glide ratio
> >> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:22:37 -0700
> >>
> >> Is there an average glide ratio for the Europa based on an average of
> >> reports? Prop stopped and prop at idle? Thanks
> >>
> >>
> >> hi jerry,
> > i seem to recall seeing approx 500ft /min rate of descent at 75 knots
> best
> > glide speed clean when i was doing my conversion training with prop at
> idle
> > which equates to approx 15:1 in trigear G-OGAN ,bit better than the
> cessna i
> > fly at the moment.
> > best
> > regards andy cullum rebuilding/ converting to trigear G-CGDH
> >> Jerry
> >>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Jerry and all,
>
> my Classic Mono, with feathering Airmaster prop and two up, sinks at close
> to a 1000' per min. with the engine off. When feathering is complete the
> sink-rate settles at 350' per min. at 87 knots and the glide ratio is
> considerably better than some of the gliders I used to fly in my youth.
> Mind you, an engine failure shortly after take-off would not leave time
> for
> anything other, than getting the nose down and looking for a suitable
> place
> ahead. I have not tested the sink-rate or glide with flaps and gear down
> yet.
> BTW, we did not bother to re-start the engine and slipped off the excess
> altitude on final, followed by an uneventful dead-stick landing.
> Try it, it's fun
>
> Peter Timm, #110, C-GIET, 340 hrs.
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selector valve location |
Ira,
Would that be an FS20? Is there is source here in US?
Fred
On Friday, June 22, 2007, at 04:11 PM, rampil wrote:
> Most of the Europas I have seen in the States have the selector on the
> top of the tunnel. I did mine that way at the suggestion of Russ Lepre
> of FlightCrafters.
>
> Two reinforced, glass L brackets hold an Andair valve to the tunnel
> bottom
>
> --------
> Ira N224XS
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 34
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on 07/6/22 4:28 PM, Tom Friedland at 96victor@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Peter
Please correct my math... sink rate of 350'/min @ 87kts gives a glide ration
of 25:1... Something must be wrong with my calculations...
That surely is as good as many gliders??
How's the weather? I should get there Sunday later in the afternoon am
getting excited.
Tom
On 6/22/07, Peter Timm <cptimm@telus.net> wrote:
on 07/6/22 3:04 PM, roger cullum at rsc-93@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
<mailto:rsc-93@hotmail.co.uk> >
>
>
>> From: "Jerry Rehn" <rehn@rockisland.com>
>> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Europa-List: glide ratio
>> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:22:37 -0700
>>
>> Is there an average glide ratio for the Europa based on an average of
>> reports? Prop stopped and prop at idle? Thanks
>>
>>
>> hi jerry,
> i seem to recall seeing approx 500ft /min rate of descent at 75 knots best
> glide speed clean when i was doing my conversion training with prop at idle
> which equates to approx 15:1 in trigear G-OGAN ,bit better than the cessna i
> fly at the moment.
> best
> regards andy cullum rebuilding/ converting to trigear G-CGDH
>> Jerry
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk
<http://www.newhotmail.co.uk>
>
>
Jerry and all,
my Classic Mono, with feathering Airmaster prop and two up, sinks at close
to a 1000' per min. with the engine off. When feathering is complete the
sink-rate settles at 350' per min. at 87 knots and the glide ratio is
considerably better than some of the gliders I used to fly in my youth.
Mind you, an engine failure shortly after take-off would not leave time for
anything other, than getting the nose down and looking for a suitable place
ahead. I have not tested the sink-rate or glide with flaps and gear down
yet.
BTW, we did not bother to re-start the engine and slipped off the excess
there is nothing wrong with your math, Tom, there is usually some lift
where we flew, at least part of the way. I fully expected to have to
re-start the engine. We'll try it again and you do the flying! It is quite
amazing what the Europa can do in the clean configuration.
The weather turned nice in the afternoon after a drizzly morning. Sunday
should be similar and Monday and Tuesday are predicted to be better. We'll
have enough flying to see you through.
Looking forward to seeing you!
Peter
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Graha;m
I hope it passed the test!
JR
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> No worries mate!
> btw Kingsley was here a few days ago, he checked out my new house for me!
> Graham
>
> Laptop JR wrote:
>>
>> OK Graham and any others coming later -
>>
>> I opened my mouth too quickly and regret wasting everyone 's time.
>>
>> JR and do not archive
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton"
>> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 8:15 AM
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
>>
>>
>>> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>>>
>>> Bob
>>> the slots are in the torque tube only, not the TP6. Its the TP6 that
>>> holds the pip pin in
>>> Graham
>>>
>>> Laptop JR wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ron and others
>>>> There must be some limit on the amount lengthening into slots -
>>>> otherwise the pip pin balls will ot have anything to grip on in the
>>>> radial direction.........?
>>>> JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> --
>>> Graham Singleton
>>>
>>> Tel: +441629820187
>>> Mob: +447739582005
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Graham Singleton
>
> Tel: +441629820187
> Mob: +447739582005
>
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Hello Bob
"There must be some limit on the amount lengthening into slots - otherwise
the pip pin balls will ot have anything to grip on in the radial
direction.........?"
The pip pin balls grab onto the outer bushing, so the length of slot will
not effect the security of the pip pins if the balls are downward of the
outer bushing.
That said, remember that the torque tube is a spar. Vertical holes of pip
pins are outboard, but vertical holes weaken more than horizontal holes. I
ovaled mine to allow just a bit more than 1/2" at TE of stabilators.
Don't consider putting vertical holes in spar more inboard for obvious
reason.
Ron Parigoris
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