Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:36 AM - Re: Europa pip-pin recess (Jon Smith)
2. 12:38 AM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Jon Smith)
3. 12:55 AM - N81EU ~ progess (=?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?=)
4. 02:05 AM - Tailplane flutter (=?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?=)
5. 02:28 AM - Re: Fuel selector valve location (G-IANI)
6. 02:37 AM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (Graham Singleton)
7. 02:45 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (William Harrison)
8. 02:45 AM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (William Harrison)
9. 03:14 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (G-IANI)
10. 03:14 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
11. 03:21 AM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (William Harrison)
12. 03:45 AM - Vne tests (Miles McCallum)
13. 03:50 AM - Pin interferece (William Harrison)
14. 04:08 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (William Harrison)
15. 05:11 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Graham Singleton)
16. 05:17 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (G-IANI)
17. 06:32 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
18. 06:38 AM - Re: Tailplane Torque Tube (h&jeuropa)
19. 06:42 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Jos Okhuijsen)
20. 07:32 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (R.C.Harrison)
21. 07:34 AM - Re: N81EU ~ progess (joseph brannen)
22. 07:37 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (joseph brannen)
23. 07:38 AM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (Fred Klein)
24. 07:59 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (William Harrison)
25. 09:04 AM - Re: Fuel selector valve location (Steve Pitt)
26. 09:09 AM - Re: Europa pip-pin recess (Jan de Jong)
27. 09:52 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Michel AUVRAY)
28. 10:19 AM - Re: N81EU ~ progess (karelvranken)
29. 11:18 AM - Re: Fuel selector valve location (Fred Klein)
30. 11:23 AM - Re: N81EU ~ progess (Fred Klein)
31. 11:35 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Carl Pattinson)
32. 11:48 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Carl Pattinson)
33. 11:54 AM - Europa Training Standards (Steve Crimm)
34. 11:54 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter ()
35. 11:54 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter ()
36. 11:54 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter ()
37. 11:56 AM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (Jan de Jong)
38. 12:13 PM - Re: Pin interferece ()
39. 12:22 PM - Re: Tailplane flutter ()
40. 03:10 PM - Re: Europa Training Standards (rampil)
41. 03:37 PM - Re: VNE Test Question (Graham Singleton)
42. 03:43 PM - Re: Tailplane Torque Tube (Graham Singleton)
43. 03:45 PM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (Graham Singleton)
44. 03:51 PM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Graham Singleton)
45. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: Tailplane Torque Tube (Graham Singleton)
46. 03:59 PM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (Graham Singleton)
47. 04:22 PM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Graham Singleton)
48. 05:40 PM - Re: Re: Europa Training Standards (Fred Klein)
49. 05:40 PM - Re: N81EU ~ progess (gregoryf.flyboy)
50. 06:06 PM - Battery switch (Fergus Kyle)
51. 07:25 PM - Re: Battery switch (nigel charles)
52. 09:17 PM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Ralph K. Hallett III)
53. 11:54 PM - Tailplane Retention (Roger Sheridan)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Europa pip-pin recess |
Hi!
The factory news letter number 21, "tech talk" page 14 describes why the pip
pin holes in the torque tube should be elongated. The paragraph is entitled
"torque tubes".
Regards, Jon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 3:36 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Europa pip-pin recess
>
> Hello,
> I don't quite understand the process of elongating the pip-pin
> holes. Mine are tighter'n a drum all round and so they touch everywhere
> (presumably), whereas if I were to elongated any, then won't the long side
> only be touched tangentially by the pin. Won't this then permit the long
> side to be slowly indented, and won't the condition accelerate as the
> event
> (and inner surface) wear on?
> What am I missing here?
> Happy Landings
> Ferg
> Wiring, wiring, wiring
>
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Hi Bob,
Factory news letter number 21 seems to cover this in the tech talk, page
14 entitled "torque tube".
Regards, Jon
----- Original Message -----
From: R.C.Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 8:18 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
Hi! All
I'm sensitive to all eyes being focused but quite independently from
the present furore I have been asked where the original suggestion came
from re:- radially slotting the Tail plane pip pin holes to ensure they
imparted no drive but were only as retention pins.
My initial response was from a Europa Aircraft Tech Bulletin ..would
those who know for definite please confirm or otherwise.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
Message 3
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Hi Thomas,
I am happy to learn that N81EU is close to be back in the air. Do you know what
caused of your engine failure ?
Regards
Remi
Subject: Europa-List: N81EU ~ progess
I've been quiet and that in part because I have been deeply touched by the
accidents that happened between my incident on Feb 24 and now - and the
Oshkosh accident last year,. All those personally affected
Message 4
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Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Hi all,
The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means that, in a m
ore than one degree range, the tailplanes are not balanced at all. This is
a possible cause for flutter. I consider that any play in the chain between
the mass balance arm and the tailplanes is unacceptable: that means zero p
lay between TP4 and TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and TP12. The factory so
lution is Mod 62: replacement of the =C2=BC=9D pins by 3/8=9D p
ins. This mod is known to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As far as
I know, there are 3 solutions which have been implemented successfully by
builders:
- gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4
- replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper pins
- replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts
As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all these soluti
ons have their own inconveniences and must be implemented carefully, but I
believe these inconveniences are far outweighed by the safety of a fully ba
lanced tailplane in all conditions.
Regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours
Message 5
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Subject: | Fuel selector valve location |
Fred
Here is one way to do a fuel tap. For more details e-mail me direct
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter |
Good point Jos,
however, all UK Europas are not grounded, they have just given us some
fairly tight criteria to consider.
one tailplane pin was bent 90 degrees?!
How steep is the dive to reach Vne without power and was the radar speed
calculated to take into account wind and angle of dive?
Graham
Jos Okhuijsen wrote:
>
> Hi Carl,
> It's that attitude where i am pointing to, IMHO it's better to use all
> brains available, feed all the facts and see where the discussion
> leads. The change that the right solution is found is certainly not
> smaller. In a way that is happening here. Excluding myself, there are
> some very knowledgeable folks around here. The problem is that the facs
> are few and secondhanded. And we all feel insecure.
>
>
> Simply grounding every plane certainly makes the flying a lot safer, no
> doubt about it. But it does not affect all Europas outside the UK. One
> more reason for openess about what happened.
> So,let'shave the facts. Conclusions may come later.
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
I did Mod 62 and it seemed a big improvement (all holes drilled and
reamed in a machine shop). 120 flying hours later it developed "a
tad" of slop on one side. I have loctited that side (therefore could
still remove the torque tube since loctite is on one side only). Is
the idea of the AN bolt option that it clamps the two parts together?
Is this a PFA approved mod?
Willie
> Hi all,
>
> The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means
> that, in a more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not
> balanced at all. This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider
> that any play in the chain between the mass balance arm and the
> tailplanes is unacceptable: that means zero play between TP4 and
> TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and TP12. The factory solution is
> Mod 62: replacement of the =BC=94 pins by 3/8=94 pins. This mod is
known
> to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As far as I know, there
> are 3 solutions which have been implemented successfully by builders:
> - gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4
> - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper
> pins
> - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts
> As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all
> these solutions have their own inconveniences and must be
> implemented carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are far
> outweighed by the safety of a fully balanced tailplane in all
> conditions.
> Regards
>
> Remi Guerner
> F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Is this available on line anywhere?
Willie
On 24 Jun 2007, at 08:37, Jon Smith wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> Factory news letter number 21 seems to cover this in the tech talk,
> page 14 entitled "torque tube".
> Regards, Jon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: R.C.Harrison
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 8:18 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
>
> Hi! All
>
> I=92m sensitive to all eyes being focused but quite independently
> from the present furore I have been asked where the original
> suggestion came from re:- radially slotting the Tail plane pip pin
> holes to ensure they imparted no drive but were only as retention
> pins.
>
> My initial response was from a Europa Aircraft Tech Bulletin
> =85.would those who know for definite please confirm or otherwise.
>
> Regards
>
> Bob H G-PTAG
>
>
> Robt.C.Harrison
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://
> www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://
> forums.matronics.com
> ========================
> ========================
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
William
The idea of the bolt option is that it does two things. a) It clamps
the two parts together. b) to ensure the tubes stay round a cross
drilled spacer is fitted inside the TP4 tube. This is Loctited in. So
you have both clamping and a glue joint but retain the ability to
dismantle.
This is not PFA approved at present but has been discussed with Andy
Draper in 2005.
Francis Donaldson asked me on Friday to pool any ideas we have on
eliminating slop in this area. He wants to address this as part of any
solution to the present problems. I will have a document ready for him,
by tonight, summarising all the options (existing pins, big pins, taper
pins, Bobs blocks and bolts). If anyone can think of anything else I
will be glad to hear from them.
If the PFA decides that bolts is the way to go, then we will have it
documented and approved very quickly.
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
Hi all, Remi,
I'm not sure about that.
I had to replace my outer TP pins at 15 hours.
300++ hours later they are still OK, despite operating mostly from grass
strips.
In my opinion, the pins are very accurately made. But the holes in the
TP tubes are not. My new pins were set-up so that they had to be driven
in; I suspect this makes the difference. The PFA requirement is now for
an "interference" fit.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: R=C3=A9mi Guerner
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:56 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means that,
in a more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not balanced at all.
This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider that any play in the
chain between the mass balance arm and the tailplanes is unacceptable:
that means zero play between TP4 and TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and
TP12. The factory solution is Mod 62: replacement of the =C2=BC=9D
pins by 3/8=9D pins. This mod is known to only delay, not
eliminate, the problem. As far as I know, there are 3 solutions which
have been implemented successfully by builders:
- gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4
- replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper
pins
- replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts
As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all these
solutions have their own inconveniences and must be implemented
carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are far outweighed by the
safety of a fully balanced tailplane in all conditions.
Regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter |
From the sound of it, many contributors to this forum are converging
on a hypothesis about the failure sequence along the following lines:
- Slop builds up between TP12 and TP4. Perhaps this starts as a
finite amount of freeplay from an imperfect build and then continues
to build up through the repeated little impacts of the stabs and mass
balance bouncing off each other during normal and abnormal use, eg
taxiing over rough ground, effects of being trailered etc)
- Eventually, the slop builds to the point the pip pins are sharing
some of the torsional loads via the TP6s. This puts increasing load
on the bonded joint between the TP6 and the stab until one day that
joint fails.
- The implication is that the aircraft was not built with the "belt
and braces" geometry in the pip pin recess (is this correct?), which
would mean that the failed TP6 bond would permit lateral movement of
the stab
- the stab would therefore disengage both TP12/13 drive flange and
also the trim tab T bar. The Trim tab T bar would at this point also
be free to disengage from the other stab as well
- The system is now hugely different from the design condition: 50%
mass imbalance between the remaining stab and the TP19, one
unrestrained stab (perhaps it came off all together ), the other stab
perhaps detached from its trim tab. Flutter starts
- The implication is that events moved very quickly - no time for any
kind of distress message. The suggestion is that the flutter built
quickly and put severe oscillating loads on the rear fuselage,
perhaps torsional, and/or bending loads, until the rear fuselage
fractured (is it correct that it detached completely?), at which
point all control was lost
- At some point in or following the above sequence it has been
implied (in PFA 247/FSB 007) that there was a failure of the rear
wing attachment pin. If so, it sounds like this was a consequence of
the above, not a contributory cause.
Does this reflect the consensus about what probably happened and why,
or does anyone have an alternative explanation?
Willie Harrison
On 24 Jun 2007, at 01:30, Jos Okhuijsen wrote:
>
> Don't know if it's important, and i can't really oversee the
> implications, if it's important let somebody please bring it to the
> attention of the accident ivestigators. I doubt if they do
> investigate these archives.
>
> In one of the threads about the tailplane drive the following
> message has been written:
> -----------------
> Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Mod. 62 -
> Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive
>
> The other way is to clean the drive sleeve and torque tube surfaces
> with
> acetone and a jet of compressed air, then use a wicking grade
> Loctite to
> bond them together after lining up the tailplane trailing edges. It
> must be
> about 800 to 900 hours since I did that to mine and they are still
> solid. I
> will, of course, have to deal with dismantling if I ever have to,
> but a heat
> source inside the torque tube should do the trick. I also had to
> provide
> some lubricating tubes to replace the oil into the torque tube
> bearings,
> because the acetone washes that out too.
> Regards,
> William
>
>
Message 12
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Pete Clarke, I believe, did Vne + 20kt with no issues.
Vne tests - your guess is as good as ours - part of the CAA flight test
regime, and some blankly refuse.
Miles
I have a question though ..
VNE is a design speed (presumably calculated) - with some margin maybe?
I was intrigued by the UK requirement to dive to VNE as part of the annual
check. What exactly are you trying to prove by performing this test
annually?
How many of your wear parachutes when performing this test?
Regards,
Martin Tuck
Message 13
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For what its worth, my inspector, Tony Kay, tells me he suspects that
the torque tubes supplied have a variable degree of heat treatment,
leading to some folk experiencing more "wear" in the holes than
others. I don't think he has hard data to back his suspicions, only
the observation that some torque tubes do better than other. Anyone
else have views or info on this?
Willie
On 24 Jun 2007, at 11:14, Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote:
> Hi all,
> Remi,
> I'm not sure about that.
> I had to replace my outer TP pins at 15 hours.
> 300++ hours later they are still OK, despite operating mostly from
> grass strips.
>
> In my opinion, the pins are very accurately made. But the holes in
> the TP tubes are not. My new pins were set-up so that they had to
> be driven in; I suspect this makes the difference. The PFA
> requirement is now for an "interference" fit.
>
> Duncan McF.
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
Thanks Ian
The bolted option sounds like good engineering if done properly.
One other idea I have heard suggested, (by Tony Kay) is that a snug
fitting inner tube is assembled, eg with Bearing Fit /retainer grade
Loctite, into the torque tube, basically to make the whole thing
thicker-walled and therefore to reduce the contact stress of the pin/
tube contact areas. I think it would be a machine shop job to get the
drilling and reaming done accurately so obviously the torque tube
would have to come out.
The other option might be simply to junk the existing torque tube and
substitute something beefier (thicker walled and or harder). Not sure
how the CofG works out for a mono but most trigears seem to have a
hefty lump of lead in the tail so they could presumably take the
extra weight of a reinforced or beefier torque tube with a
corresponding reduction in the ballast weight.
By the way, I think it is highly enlightened of Francis to invite
ideas from owner/builders. Most of us know from uncomfortable
experience what practical implications are put on any solution by
the access issue, to say nothing of being "stakeholders" in the
success of the outcome.
Thanks for your good work.
Willie Harrison
On 24 Jun 2007, at 11:13, G-IANI wrote:
> William
>
> The idea of the bolt option is that it does two things. a) It
> clamps the two parts together. b) to ensure the tubes stay round a
> cross drilled spacer is fitted inside the TP4 tube. This is
> Loctited in. So you have both clamping and a glue joint but retain
> the ability to dismantle.
>
> This is not PFA approved at present but has been discussed with
> Andy Draper in 2005.
>
> Francis Donaldson asked me on Friday to pool any ideas we have on
> eliminating slop in this area. He wants to address this as part of
> any solution to the present problems. I will have a document ready
> for him, by tonight, summarising all the options (existing pins,
> big pins, taper pins, Bobs blocks and bolts). If anyone can think
> of anything else I will be glad to hear from them.
>
> If the PFA decides that bolts is the way to go, then we will have
> it documented and approved very quickly.
>
>
> Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
> Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
> e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
> or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
>
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
Duncan
I think they always were supplied as an interference fit.
I've noticed, however, that once they have been in and out more than
once they loosen up. Pushing a drill through to drill the nylon bush is
an awful thing to do to an accurate hole.
Better way might be to supply the nylon bush pre drilled, then bond in
the bronze bushes to fit the position of the nylon instead of the other
way round.
Re write the plans a bit?
Graham
Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote:
> Hi all,
> Remi,
> I'm not sure about that.
> I had to replace my outer TP pins at 15 hours.
> 300++ hours later they are still OK, despite operating mostly from grass
> strips.
>
> In my opinion, the pins are very accurately made. But the holes in the
> TP tubes are not. My new pins were set-up so that they had to be driven
> in; I suspect this makes the difference. The PFA requirement is now for
> an "interference" fit.
>
> Duncan McF.
Message 16
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Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
William
Thanks for the reminder that thick wall tube is another solution.
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
Graham,
I agree that they loosen up on repeated fitment, yet I had taken great care
to minimise this during the build (fitting back together only twice, less
than which was not possible).
As such, unless marginally oversize pins are supplied for the final fitting,
the design is invalidated by the build process.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> Duncan
> I think they always were supplied as an interference fit.
> I've noticed, however, that once they have been in and out more than once
> they loosen up. Pushing a drill through to drill the nylon bush is an
> awful thing to do to an accurate hole.
>
> Better way might be to supply the nylon bush pre drilled, then bond in the
> bronze bushes to fit the position of the nylon instead of the other way
> round.
>
> Re write the plans a bit?
>
> Graham
>
> Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote:
>> Hi all, Remi,
>> I'm not sure about that.
>> I had to replace my outer TP pins at 15 hours.
>> 300++ hours later they are still OK, despite operating mostly from grass
>> strips.
>> In my opinion, the pins are very accurately made. But the holes in the
>> TP tubes are not. My new pins were set-up so that they had to be driven
>> in; I suspect this makes the difference. The PFA requirement is now for
>> an "interference" fit.
>> Duncan McF.
>
>
>
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Tailplane Torque Tube |
Fred,
Yes we have installed taper pins and although we haven't flown with them, they
are very secure and there is no play in the system. We did it a little differently
than described initially. We loctited a tube inside the torque tube as
descirbed and we opened up the original holes to accept the taper pins so they
are horizontal. Since we had the oversize pins in place, there wasn't much material
left on TP9, so our machine shop made steel rings which were welded in
place on each side of TP9 to provide a reasonable amount of material for the
taper pins. On the outer end, we just installed taper pins thru the nylon sleeve
like original. Others who have the original 1/4" pins have just replaced
them with taper pins as there is plenty of material available.
We found that removing the torque tube assembly is not difficult just working through
the access hole on the stbd side and viewing through the little hole at
the base of the vertical fin on the stbd side. The most difficult part is attaching
the mass balance assembly and pitch push rod to TP9!
Jim Butcher
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120316#120316
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Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
Ian,
Slop on the tail planes is far from a new problem, it has frequently been
reported before.
Looking through history, there has been written a lot and several
solutions have allready been suggested.
Until now, it has not been causing an accident, now it happened everybody
seems to look at it as a new problem, which it is not.
One of them is the clamp system that Bob Harrison developed.
Is that not reliable or not usefull or why is it not mentioned in this
respect?
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
--
workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane
http://www.europaowners.org/kit600
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Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Hi! Remi
You forgot my torque tube clamps as a permanent fix for no slop ever.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R=E9mi
Guerner
Sent: 24 June 2007 09:56
Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
Hi all,
The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means that, in
a more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not balanced at all.
This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider that any play in the
chain between the mass balance arm and the tailplanes is unacceptable:
that means zero play between TP4 and TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and
TP12. The factory solution is Mod 62: replacement of the =BC=94 pins by
3/8=94
pins. This mod is known to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As
far as I know, there are 3 solutions which have been implemented
successfully by builders:
- gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4
- replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper pins
- replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts
As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all these
solutions have their own inconveniences and must be implemented
carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are far outweighed by the
safety of a fully balanced tailplane in all conditions.
Regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: N81EU ~ progess |
I believe that Scherer has illustrated the most
important element in 180s, SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.
JP
--- Thomas Scherer <thomas@scherer.com> wrote:
> <thomas@scherer.com>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've been quiet and that in part because I have been
> deeply touched by the
> accidents that happened between my incident on Feb
> 24 and now - and the
> Oshkosh accident last year,. All those personally
> affected and close to
> those brethren we lost ~ my deepest condolences.
>
> Like many I am a little puzzled by the advent of
> 'flutter' and will await
> further details. On stalls, spins and 180's I would
> like to add my 2 cent:
>
> I have done 180's three times in my carreer due to
> not so welcoming areas
> ahead ~ yet in February there was no altitude
> whatsoever - not even for a
> left turn. I went straight ahead and had only one
> thought in mind: "keep air
> over those wings til the end". I flew us into a
> quary which is right
> adjacent to the airport, and that was not a nice
> prospective ~ but I wanted
> to remain in control of the plane til the last
> moment. It sure did pay off
> as we walked away - only the plane was hurt.
>
> I think 180's or partial turns are alright as long
> as you have the speed and
> remain in control. Of spins I am so profoundly
> afraid that I always keep her
> above 75 kn, unless flaps are down and in ground
> effect. Must say though
> that N81EU does not appear to have that pronounced
> drop of one wing as some
> report. No stall strips installed.
>
> I am totally confident in the Europa being of good
> and sound design - a very
> capable airplane.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Today I want to report that in the last 48 hours
> N81EU was repainted, doors
> re-fitted, engine installed and wings back on.
>
> See a picture of her in the hangar here:
>
> <a
>
href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/tosstudio/607079004/"
> title="Photo
> Sharing"><img
>
src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1089/607079004_a95d230511.jpg"
>
> width="500" height="500" alt="repair12" /></a>
>
> and
>
> <a
>
href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/tosstudio/607078996/"
> title="Photo
> Sharing"><img
>
src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1305/607078996_eccbf1630e_o.jpg"
>
> width="800" height="306" alt="repair11" /></a>
>
> There is still plenty to do, yet I feel that Oshkosh
> is within reach.
>
> Once first flight (at 980 hrs on the hobbs...)
> occurs, I will send an eMail
> with full story on the cause (fuel starvation) and
> process of the forced
> landing and the repair effort.
>
> be well, fly safely,
>
> <Thomas, N81EU>
>
>
>
> BTW - do not install high-compression Xtra pistons.
> Me and others have not
> have had success with them. While you'll admittedly
> gain power - other
> trouble WILL arise.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Is the tail flutter problem the consequence of having
easily removable stabilators?
jp
--- "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi! Remi
> You forgot my torque tube clamps as a permanent fix
> for no slop ever.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> Robt.C.Harrison
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Rmi
> Guerner
> Sent: 24 June 2007 09:56
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
>
> Hi all,
>
> The half inch play tolerance as specified by the
> factory means that, in
> a more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not
> balanced at all.
> This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider
> that any play in the
> chain between the mass balance arm and the
> tailplanes is unacceptable:
> that means zero play between TP4 and TP9 and zero
> play between TP 4 and
> TP12. The factory solution is Mod 62: replacement of
> the pins by 3/8
> pins. This mod is known to only delay, not
> eliminate, the problem. As
> far as I know, there are 3 solutions which have been
> implemented
> successfully by builders:
> - gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4
> - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D
> by AN486 taper pins
> - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D
> by AN bolts
> As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the
> past, all these
> solutions have their own inconveniences and must be
> implemented
> carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are
> far outweighed by the
> safety of a fully balanced tailplane in all
> conditions.
> Regards
>
> Remi Guerner
> F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482
> hours
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter |
On Sunday, June 24, 2007, at 02:39 AM, Graham Singleton wrote:
> one tailplane pin was bent 90 degrees?!
Wow!...first I'd heard of that...Would that have been a TP14 or a pip
pin?
Fred
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
Hi Bob
Where can I access details of your clamp design?
Cheers
Willie Harrison
On 24 Jun 2007, at 15:30, R.C.Harrison wrote:
> Hi! Remi
>
> You forgot my torque tube clamps as a permanent fix for no slop ever.
>
> Regards
>
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
>
> Robt.C.Harrison
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Subject: | Re: Fuel selector valve location |
Fred,
I have seen some elegant alterations to the fuel selector but most include
changing to the Andair fuel tap sunk into the top of the tunnel (see Ira's
response).
I have decided that as a cheap, safe and quick option to continue to use the
factory tap with a large homemade, laminated label showing the position of
the fuel tap settings, taped to the top of the tunnel. This way I only have
to check that the pointer feels in the right position as shown on the label
and all is well.
My inspector was most happy and it saved me more modifications which stop me
flying.
Regards
Steve Pitt
G-SMDH
PS Andair are a company local to me in the UK. Their quality is excellent
and I would not hesitate to fit their wares. (I nearly purchased the tap
last year). However I endorse David Joyce's view and given that I rarely
change tanks, keeping the reserve filter clean at all times, I believe the
factory fit works well.
Message 26
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Subject: | Re: Europa pip-pin recess |
Sorry, my concern is premature. My reasoning: assuming an official fix
for better TP6 retention and assuming this fix incompatible with club
mod then club mod must remain blessed without fix.
Jan de Jong
G-IANI wrote:
>
>
> Jan
>
> I do not understand your reference to "an official blessing will be
> needed. The Club mod is a fully approved PFA standard mod.
>
> Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
> Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
> e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
> or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
>
>
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Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Hi Robert,
Do you have pictures and/or scheme of your solution?
Thanks
Michel Auvray
Builder N145
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]De la part de R.C.Harrison
Envoy : dimanche 24 juin 2007 16:31
: europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
Hi! Remi
You forgot my torque tube clamps as a permanent fix for no slop ever.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rmi Guerner
Sent: 24 June 2007 09:56
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
Hi all,
The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means that, in a
more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not balanced at all. This is
a possible cause for flutter. I consider that any play in the chain between
the mass balance arm and the tailplanes is unacceptable: that means zero
play between TP4 and TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and TP12. The factory
solution is Mod 62: replacement of the pins by 3/8 pins. This mod is
known to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As far as I know, there are
3 solutions which have been implemented successfully by builders:
- gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4
- replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper pins
- replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts
As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all these
solutions have their own inconveniences and must be implemented carefully,
but I believe these inconveniences are far outweighed by the safety of a
fully balanced tailplane in all conditions.
Regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours
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Subject: | Re: N81EU ~ progess |
Congratulations Thomas, she looks as good as ever.
Karel Vranken # 447 only 40 hours at the moment.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Scherer" <thomas@scherer.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 6:35 AM
Subject: Europa-List: N81EU ~ progess
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Subject: | Re: Fuel selector valve location |
Thanks Steve, David, and Ira,
As long as the factory-supplied unit serves, it's good enough for
me...there are plenty of other ways to spend an extra $200....
Fred
DO NOT ARCHIVE
On Sunday, June 24, 2007, at 09:02 AM, Steve Pitt wrote:
> <steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com>
>
> Fred,
> I have seen some elegant alterations to the fuel selector but most
> include changing to the Andair fuel tap sunk into the top of the
> tunnel (see Ira's response).
> I have decided that as a cheap, safe and quick option to continue to
> use the factory tap with a large homemade, laminated label showing the
> position of the fuel tap settings, taped to the top of the tunnel.
> This way I only have to check that the pointer feels in the right
> position as shown on the label and all is well.
> My inspector was most happy and it saved me more modifications which
> stop me flying.
> Regards
> Steve Pitt
> G-SMDH
> PS Andair are a company local to me in the UK. Their quality is
> excellent and I would not hesitate to fit their wares. (I nearly
> purchased the tap last year). However I endorse David Joyce's view and
> given that I rarely change tanks, keeping the reserve filter clean at
> all times, I believe the factory fit works well.
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
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Subject: | Re: N81EU ~ progess |
Great job Thomas...looking forward to the full story!
Happy landings,
Fred
do not archive
On Saturday, June 23, 2007, at 09:35 PM, Thomas Scherer wrote:
>
>
> Once first flight (at 980 hrs on the hobbs...) occurs, I will send an
> eMail with full story on the cause (fuel starvation) and process of
> the forced landing and the repair effort.
>
> be well, fly safely,
>
> <Thomas, N81EU>
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
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Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
There is a slight misunderstanding regarding where the wear in the
"torque tube assembly" occurrs. The torque tube itself is a hardened
(possibly crome moly) steel.
Having just implemented Mod 62 we found that there was no noticeable
wear in the torque tube itself. All the wear occurred in the TP9 and
TP12 components as these do not appear to be hardened steel (or as hard
as the torque tube itself).
You are right about the reaming needing to be done accurately and it is
advisable to drill each hole from the outside and not through the tube.
The reaming should also be done from the outside and not through the
opposing holes. The factory specified drill size and reamer is crucial
(23/64 drill and 3/8 reamer) - dont be tempted to use a 3/8 or 9.5mm
drill - it will ruin the job. Incidentally we measured the factory
supplied pins and found them to be a couple of thou oversize which is
probably a good thing.
The factory instructions say you should ream through the whole assembly
but our experience was that this opened the holes out too much with a
slightly looser fit. We practiced on a spare piece of mild steel tube
before risking our engineering skills on the real thing. The purists
among you will say this leads to misalignment of the holes however under
the circumstances we found this simply made for a tighter fit.
We drilled and reamed all the holes individually making sure the
opposing hole had a TP14 pin inserted half way. We then assembled the
whole assembly once on the workbench and it was necessary to lightly
hammer all the pins into place.
We thought it prudent to assemble at least once in case of a possible
misalignment even though this process will have started to wear the pin
holes. The risk of discovering the misalignment down the back end of the
tailplane and the attendant possibility of being unable to remove the
pins was not an option we wanted to contemplate. In the final event a
fair amount of tapping with a hammer was needed to fully drive the pins
home but has resulted in an excellent solid fit. Only time will tell how
good a job this makes.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
PS: Im not sure the bolted option will prevent wear/ elongation of the
holes. I had a Shadow pre the Europa and a lot of the tubular
components were held together using bolts - in time the holes still
elongated.
I did suggest to Andy that perhaps building the counterweights into the
leading edge of the tailplanes would eliminate the need for the
counterbalance arm but he was quick to point out this would require a
substantial increase in the weight needed due to the relatively short
distance between the torque tube and leading edges. Ultimately this may
not be as big a problem as it seems since many Europas with heavy VP
props have additional weight in the rear anyway. If this could be used
to counterbalance the tailplane it would be likking two birds with one
stone.
Still I am not a design engineer and I havent done the sums - and
wouldnt know how to.
----- Original Message -----
From: William Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
Thanks Ian
The bolted option sounds like good engineering if done properly.
One other idea I have heard suggested, (by Tony Kay) is that a snug
fitting inner tube is assembled, eg with Bearing Fit /retainer grade
Loctite, into the torque tube, basically to make the whole thing
thicker-walled and therefore to reduce the contact stress of the
pin/tube contact areas. I think it would be a machine shop job to get
the drilling and reaming done accurately so obviously the torque tube
would have to come out.
The other option might be simply to junk the existing torque tube and
substitute something beefier (thicker walled and or harder). Not sure
how the CofG works out for a mono but most trigears seem to have a hefty
lump of lead in the tail so they could presumably take the extra weight
of a reinforced or beefier torque tube with a corresponding reduction in
the ballast weight.
By the way, I think it is highly enlightened of Francis to invite
ideas from owner/builders. Most of us know from uncomfortable experience
what practical implications are put on any solution by the access
issue, to say nothing of being "stakeholders" in the success of the
outcome.
Thanks for your good work.
Willie Harrison
On 24 Jun 2007, at 11:13, G-IANI wrote:
William
The idea of the bolt option is that it does two things. a) It
clamps the two parts together. b) to ensure the tubes stay round a cross
drilled spacer is fitted inside the TP4 tube. This is Loctited in. So
you have both clamping and a glue joint but retain the ability to
dismantle.
This is not PFA approved at present but has been discussed with Andy
Draper in 2005.
Francis Donaldson asked me on Friday to pool any ideas we have on
eliminating slop in this area. He wants to address this as part of any
solution to the present problems. I will have a document ready for him,
by tonight, summarising all the options (existing pins, big pins, taper
pins, Bobs blocks and bolts). If anyone can think of anything else I
will be glad to hear from them.
If the PFA decides that bolts is the way to go, then we will have it
documented and approved very quickly.
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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|
Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
The final alignment could be checked by trial fitting the torque assembly
using the shank of a 3/8" drill. The factory supplied pins are a couple of
thou oversize which is probably deliberate. Fortunately we had the help of a
licenced aircraft engineer who loaned his workshop and checked our pins with
a micrometer screw guage. Not sure of the exact dimension but they were
measurably oversize.
Or alternately make dummy pins from 3/8" steel stock - or aircraft quality
bolts. They would need to be checked with a gague to ensure they were the
correct size.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> Graham,
> I agree that they loosen up on repeated fitment, yet I had taken great
> care to minimise this during the build (fitting back together only twice,
> less than which was not possible).
>
> As such, unless marginally oversize pins are supplied for the final
> fitting, the design is invalidated by the build process.
>
> Duncan McF.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
>
>
>> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>>
>> Duncan
>> I think they always were supplied as an interference fit.
>> I've noticed, however, that once they have been in and out more than once
>> they loosen up. Pushing a drill through to drill the nylon bush is an
>> awful thing to do to an accurate hole.
>>
>> Better way might be to supply the nylon bush pre drilled, then bond in
>> the bronze bushes to fit the position of the nylon instead of the other
>> way round.
>>
>> Re write the plans a bit?
>>
>> Graham
>>
>> Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote:
>>> Hi all, Remi,
>>> I'm not sure about that.
>>> I had to replace my outer TP pins at 15 hours.
>>> 300++ hours later they are still OK, despite operating mostly from grass
>>> strips.
>>> In my opinion, the pins are very accurately made. But the holes in the
>>> TP tubes are not. My new pins were set-up so that they had to be driven
>>> in; I suspect this makes the difference. The PFA requirement is now for
>>> an "interference" fit.
>>> Duncan McF.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Europa Training Standards |
Flight,
In light of all the recent conversation, I think it would be appropriate for
the gathering of named individuals qualified to give re-current Europa
training. I myself need someone who is monowheel qualified to do re-current
training. This might be a list that would be posted on the public side of
the Europa Clubs website. It also might be an opportunity for training
standards to be developed by this group as it relates to the Europa in it's
various configurations. We did the same type of thing with the EMS
helicopter industry here in the states when they were suffering from a high
accident rate in the mid 80's, and got the FAA to buy into it before they
and the insurance companies took the issue to extremes.
By having training standards specific to the Europa we might be able to get
in front of any regulatory or insurance issues and if nothing else have
safer more competent pilots, not implying that we don't already.
Just a though to be passed around to the group, as our aircraft and pilot
numbers grow it can only be to our advantage. Besides I was never one to
believed you couldn't teach an old dog new tricks. During my commercial
helicopters years, I always looked forward to check rides with our most
talented instructors because I always picked up one or two pointers each
time as well as reviewing the standards.
So if you are on the west side of the pond and interested in doing
re-current monowheel training please contact me off list.
Thanks,
Steve Crimm
N42AH
Message 34
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Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Hello Ian
"Francis Donaldson asked me on Friday to pool any ideas we have on
eliminating slop in this area."
I am very happy with my resolution. I made pins out of 416SS ~.402" in
diameter. Interference fit between .0006" and .0008". I made a slight
dogbone (relief of a few thousands of an ") between interference contact
areas.
If I were to do it again I would make all the entrance holes slight larger
than the back side and eliminate the dogbone (I did this on a few holes).
I used paint primer as an assembly lubricant.
Search Ron Parigoris Torque Tube for a bit more detail on procedure.
A fixture for holding work is needed if the fit was as bad as mine
(trilobal holes, pins slide in with just gravity, way over 3/4"
differential motion at TE.
Burnishing is an essential (as described in my prior post) step for a true
interference fit.
Ron Parigoris
Message 35
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Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Hello Ian
"Francis Donaldson asked me on Friday to pool any ideas we have on
eliminating slop in this area."
I am very happy with my resolution. I made pins out of 416SS ~.402" in
diameter. Interference fit between .0006" and .0008". I made a slight
dogbone (relief of a few thousands of an ") between interference contact
areas.
If I were to do it again I would make all the entrance holes slight larger
than the back side and eliminate the dogbone (I did this on a few holes).
I used paint primer as an assembly lubricant.
Search Ron Parigoris Torque Tube for a bit more detail on procedure.
A fixture for holding work is needed if the fit was as bad as mine
(trilobal holes, pins slide in with just gravity, way over 3/4"
differential motion at TE.
Burnishing is an essential (as described in my prior post) step for a true
interference fit.
Ron Parigoris
Message 36
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Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Hello Ian
"Francis Donaldson asked me on Friday to pool any ideas we have on
eliminating slop in this area."
I am very happy with my resolution. I made pins out of 416SS ~.402" in
diameter. Interference fit between .0006" and .0008". I made a slight
dogbone (relief of a few thousands of an ") between interference contact
areas.
If I were to do it again I would make all the entrance holes slight larger
than the back side and eliminate the dogbone (I did this on a few holes).
I used paint primer as an assembly lubricant.
Search Ron Parigoris Torque Tube for a bit more detail on procedure.
A fixture for holding work is needed if the fit was as bad as mine
(trilobal holes, pins slide in with just gravity, way over 3/4"
differential motion at TE.
Burnishing is an essential (as described in my prior post) step for a true
interference fit.
Ron Parigoris
Message 37
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Subject: | Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter |
Hallo William,
> From the sound of it, many contributors to this forum are converging
> on a hypothesis about the failure sequence along the following lines:
>
> - Slop builds up between TP12 and TP4. Perhaps this starts as a finite
> amount of freeplay from an imperfect build and then continues to build
> up through the repeated little impacts of the stabs and mass balance
> bouncing off each other during normal and abnormal use, eg taxiing
> over rough ground, effects of being trailered etc)
>
> - Eventually, the slop builds to the point the pip pins are sharing
> some of the torsional loads via the TP6s. This puts increasing load on
> the bonded joint between the TP6 and the stab until one day that joint
> fails.
Maybe TP6 might also come adrift in the absence of slop?
Transport? Rigging? Maybe a good shove is needed to engage drive pins in
sockets?
Regards,
Jan de Jong
Message 38
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Subject: | Re: Pin interferece |
Hello Willie
"> For what its worth, my inspector, Tony Kay, tells me he suspects that
> the torque tubes supplied have a variable degree of heat treatment,
> leading to some folk experiencing more "wear" in the holes than
> others. I don't think he has hard data to back his suspicions, only
> the observation that some torque tubes do better than other. Anyone
> else have views or info on this?"
Making a round hole with walls that are flat is not a trivial job. I
reamed my holes holding parts in a fixture on my Milling Machine. I used
plenty of cutting fluid, and a few reamers where the last one was very
close in size where it only took a few thousands cut.
If you were to measure this now what you think is the perfect hole and
made a pin to fit, you would be dissapointed (as was I).
I turned some mini pins growing in size ~ .0001" and forced them in place
in growing incrments till a light tap wass needed. In every case to hole
would grow in diameter! Some as much as .0006" , some as little as 1 or 2
tenths. Now I used my precision pins to measure holes and make pins to
fit.
Search Ron Parigoris torque tube for a prior post.
You need to make holes at worst the same size entrance and exit and
dogbone pin, but better to make entrance hole a slight bit larger (a
thousand or 2), this way there will be no wear on the first hole dragginfg
a full length pin through it.
416SS is pretty easy to cut, and using double sticky tape on a flat G-10
or popsicle stick with wet/dry sandpaper to hand lap works great.
Ron Parigoris
Message 39
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Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
Hello Duncan
"I agree that they loosen up on repeated fitment"
Once you do what I refer to as burnishing, the hole size remains much more
stable. I suspect that not only does it smooth the inperfections of the
wall, but expands the metal just a bit where it becomes less resiliant to
change.
I talked to a guy who used to refirbish critical gear components of Gruman
carrier aircraft. Before final reaming, he would use a hydraulic expander
to first enlarge and stabalize hole.
Making a dogbone or first hole slight larger than the second goes even
further to preventing damaging fit.
Ron Parigoris
Message 40
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Subject: | Re: Europa Training Standards |
Hi All,
John Hurst was the only CFI I knew who actually did sign offs for the
monowheel. He did it in his role as the manager of Europa's office
in the US. He did my tri-gear insurance sign-off in less than an hour.
John is still in the neighborhood, actually at Lockwood in Sebring Fl, but I
think, as they say he would be strongly disinclined to acquiesce to such
a request at the present time.
There are a number of high time monowheel pilots, even airline and
military types out there in mid-Florida, but I just don't recall that any
that were also CFIs.
Who would you have create "official" training standards? Who is in a
position to?
The Europa is an exceedingly easy aircraft to fly except in one variant
and in one phase of flight. I don't believe any reasonable amount of
proficiency training will eliminate all the prop strikes and ground loops
of the monowheel since I have seen it happen to several ATPs.
It just seems there is a price to pay for that extra 5 kts.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120398#120398
Message 41
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Subject: | Re: VNE Test Question |
Martin
PFA really only issued a " we already told you this, now you know why
it's probably important"
Graham
MJKTuck@cs.com wrote:
I'm kind of surprised the PFA has issued 'maybe it was this so modify
it' bulletins
> but hopefully a final fact based solution will be provided soon.
>
>> Regards,
> Martin Tuck
> Europa N152MT
> Wichita, KS
>
> *
Message 42
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Subject: | Re: Tailplane Torque Tube |
Fred
I've only done it once, but it took me an hour and a half to get the
torque tube out of an XS recently, ( year or so ago) I didn't crawl in
the back.
It took two of us about 4 hours to get it all back again, also without
crawling down the back.
This XS mono had my tailwheel/rudder drive mod so there was an extra
access hole below the stab which helped get another hand in to hold a
spanner.
Graham
Fred Klein wrote:
> Jim,
>
> What with the recent discussion of tailplane issues and my need to
> address mis-aligned TP13 bushes, I came across your post in 2006.
Message 43
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Subject: | Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter |
Jos
was that William Mills' email? Highly relevant to the investigation.
Graham
Jos Okhuijsen wrote:
>
> Don't know if it's important, and i can't really oversee the
> implications, if it's important let somebody please bring it to the
> attention of the accident ivestigators. I doubt if they do investigate
> these archives.
>
> In one of the threads about the tailplane drive the following message
> has been written:
> -----------------
> Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Mod. 62 -
> Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive
>
> The other way is to clean the drive sleeve and torque tube surfaces with
> acetone and a jet of compressed air, then use a wicking grade Loctite to
> bond them together after lining up the tailplane trailing edges. It must be
> about 800 to 900 hours since I did that to mine and they are still solid. I
> will, of course, have to deal with dismantling if I ever have to, but a
> heat
> source inside the torque tube should do the trick. I also had to provide
> some lubricating tubes to replace the oil into the torque tube bearings,
> because the acetone washes that out too.
> Regards,
> William
Message 44
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Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
Duncan
I think you are right. The surface finish on the pins might be
unsuitable, maybe the grinding marks are rubbed off when fitting?
Graham
Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote:
> Graham,
> I agree that they loosen up on repeated fitment,
>
> As such, unless marginally oversize pins are supplied for the final
> fitting, the design is invalidated by the build process.
>
> Duncan McF.
Message 45
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Subject: | Re: Tailplane Torque Tube |
Jim
my understanding is that enlarging the pin holes more than about 3/8"
will start to weaken the TP9, have you increased the size much from 3/8?
Graham
hoping for a ride one day when you have the long wings installed!
h&jeuropa wrote:
>
> Fred,
>
> Yes we have installed taper pins and although we haven't flown with them, they
are very secure and there is no play in the system. We did it a little differently
than described initially. We loctited a tube inside the torque tube as
descirbed and we opened up the original holes to accept the taper pins so they
are horizontal. Since we had the oversize pins in place, there wasn't much
material left on TP9, so our machine shop made steel rings which were welded
in place on each side of TP9 to provide a reasonable amount of material for the
taper pins. On the outer end, we just installed taper pins thru the nylon sleeve
like original. Others who have the original 1/4" pins have just replaced
them with taper pins as there is plenty of material available.
>
> We found that removing the torque tube assembly is not difficult just working
through the access hole on the stbd side and viewing through the little hole
at the base of the vertical fin on the stbd side. The most difficult part is
attaching the mass balance assembly and pitch push rod to TP9!
>
> Jim Butcher
Message 46
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Subject: | Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter |
Pip pin I think, can you confirm Jeremy? No one has yet worked out how
that happened.
Graham
Fred Klein wrote:
>
>
> On Sunday, June 24, 2007, at 02:39 AM, Graham Singleton wrote:
>
>> one tailplane pin was bent 90 degrees?!
>
>
> Wow!...first I'd heard of that...Would that have been a TP14 or a pip pin?
>
> Fred
>
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 47
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Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
Carl
The torque tube is chrome plated 4130 I believe, stainless isn't strong
enough.
You may have spotted the weakest link in the chain, if the TP9 & 12 had
more bearing area the slop problem might go away. Wouldn't be much
weight penalty either.
OTH clamp bolting as Nigel Graham did years ago might be the best answer.
Graham
Carl Pattinson wrote:
> There is a slight misunderstanding regarding where the wear in the
> "torque tube assembly" occurrs. The torque tube itself is a hardened
> (possibly crome moly) steel.
>
> Having just implemented Mod 62 we found that there was no noticeable
> wear in the torque tube itself. All the wear occurred in the TP9 and
> TP12 components as these do not appear to be hardened steel (or as hard
> as the torque tube itself).
Message 48
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Subject: | Re: Europa Training Standards |
On Sunday, June 24, 2007, at 03:09 PM, rampil wrote:
> It just seems there is a price to pay for that extra 5 kts.
...and the "cool" factor... :-)
do not archive
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 49
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Tom,
Will You have post-accident pictures with the story?
Good luck with the first flight, hopefully soon.
Greg Fuchs (A050)
do not archive
On Saturday, June 23, 2007, at 09:35 PM, Thomas Scherer wrote:
>
>
> Once first flight (at 980 hrs on the hobbs...) occurs, I will send an
> eMail with full story on the cause (fuel starvation) and process of
> the forced landing and the repair effort.
>
> be well, fly safely,
>
> <Thomas, N81EU>
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Cheers,
I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for
battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps
dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor.
If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short
description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a
useful source. US or UK no problem.
Thanks,
Ferg
Europa Classic 914 mono
Message 51
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These switches are readily available from most motorist retailers. They
can handle automobile engine starter currents so Rotax starter currents
are no problem. The only advantage of a contactor in this installation
is that it is easier to control remotely. To get around this either
place the switch in a position that can be easily reached or use a
mechanical linkage.
Nigel Charles
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
Sent: 25 June 2007 02:05
Subject: Europa-List: Battery switch
Cheers,
I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches
for
battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps
dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor.
If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short
description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a
useful source. US or UK no problem.
Thanks,
Ferg
Europa Classic 914 mono
Message 52
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Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
There are probably many of us, like myself that never get the factory
news letter. How do we get it? Or, could someone post the pip pin article?
Ralph
Reno, NV
Jon Smith wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> Factory news letter number 21 seems to cover this in the tech talk,
> page 14 entitled "torque tube".
> Regards, Jon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* R.C.Harrison <mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com <mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 22, 2007 8:18 PM
> *Subject:* Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
>
> Hi! All
>
> Im sensitive to all eyes being focused but quite independently
> from the present furore I have been asked where the original
> suggestion came from re:- radially slotting the Tail plane pip pin
> holes to ensure they imparted no drive but were only as retention
> pins.
>
> My initial response was from a Europa Aircraft Tech Bulletin
> .would those who know for definite please confirm or otherwise.
>
> Regards
>
> Bob H G-PTAG
>
> Robt.C.Harrison
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 53
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Subject: | Tailplane Retention |
>
> Dear Forum/PFA/Europa,
>
> This mod has not been approved or tested and the photos are only of
> a trial installation so please don't bother with too much negative
> feedback - it wasn't even my idea originally!
>
> It does fit the tailplanes securely with no load transferred to the
> internal bushes.
>
> I'm not proposing an alternative system, it's just an idea for
> consideration by those who are reviewing the design of our
> tailplane retention system.
>
> Brgds,
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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