---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 06/24/07: 53 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:36 AM - Re: Europa pip-pin recess (Jon Smith) 2. 12:38 AM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Jon Smith) 3. 12:55 AM - N81EU ~ progess (=?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?=) 4. 02:05 AM - Tailplane flutter (=?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?=) 5. 02:28 AM - Re: Fuel selector valve location (G-IANI) 6. 02:37 AM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (Graham Singleton) 7. 02:45 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (William Harrison) 8. 02:45 AM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (William Harrison) 9. 03:14 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (G-IANI) 10. 03:14 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 11. 03:21 AM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (William Harrison) 12. 03:45 AM - Vne tests (Miles McCallum) 13. 03:50 AM - Pin interferece (William Harrison) 14. 04:08 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (William Harrison) 15. 05:11 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Graham Singleton) 16. 05:17 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (G-IANI) 17. 06:32 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 18. 06:38 AM - Re: Tailplane Torque Tube (h&jeuropa) 19. 06:42 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Jos Okhuijsen) 20. 07:32 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (R.C.Harrison) 21. 07:34 AM - Re: N81EU ~ progess (joseph brannen) 22. 07:37 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (joseph brannen) 23. 07:38 AM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (Fred Klein) 24. 07:59 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (William Harrison) 25. 09:04 AM - Re: Fuel selector valve location (Steve Pitt) 26. 09:09 AM - Re: Europa pip-pin recess (Jan de Jong) 27. 09:52 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Michel AUVRAY) 28. 10:19 AM - Re: N81EU ~ progess (karelvranken) 29. 11:18 AM - Re: Fuel selector valve location (Fred Klein) 30. 11:23 AM - Re: N81EU ~ progess (Fred Klein) 31. 11:35 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Carl Pattinson) 32. 11:48 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Carl Pattinson) 33. 11:54 AM - Europa Training Standards (Steve Crimm) 34. 11:54 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter () 35. 11:54 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter () 36. 11:54 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter () 37. 11:56 AM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (Jan de Jong) 38. 12:13 PM - Re: Pin interferece () 39. 12:22 PM - Re: Tailplane flutter () 40. 03:10 PM - Re: Europa Training Standards (rampil) 41. 03:37 PM - Re: VNE Test Question (Graham Singleton) 42. 03:43 PM - Re: Tailplane Torque Tube (Graham Singleton) 43. 03:45 PM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (Graham Singleton) 44. 03:51 PM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Graham Singleton) 45. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: Tailplane Torque Tube (Graham Singleton) 46. 03:59 PM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (Graham Singleton) 47. 04:22 PM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Graham Singleton) 48. 05:40 PM - Re: Re: Europa Training Standards (Fred Klein) 49. 05:40 PM - Re: N81EU ~ progess (gregoryf.flyboy) 50. 06:06 PM - Battery switch (Fergus Kyle) 51. 07:25 PM - Re: Battery switch (nigel charles) 52. 09:17 PM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Ralph K. Hallett III) 53. 11:54 PM - Tailplane Retention (Roger Sheridan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:36:11 AM PST US From: "Jon Smith" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa pip-pin recess Hi! The factory news letter number 21, "tech talk" page 14 describes why the pip pin holes in the torque tube should be elongated. The paragraph is entitled "torque tubes". Regards, Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fergus Kyle" Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 3:36 AM Subject: Europa-List: Europa pip-pin recess > > Hello, > I don't quite understand the process of elongating the pip-pin > holes. Mine are tighter'n a drum all round and so they touch everywhere > (presumably), whereas if I were to elongated any, then won't the long side > only be touched tangentially by the pin. Won't this then permit the long > side to be slowly indented, and won't the condition accelerate as the > event > (and inner surface) wear on? > What am I missing here? > Happy Landings > Ferg > Wiring, wiring, wiring > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:10 AM PST US From: "Jon Smith" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? Hi Bob, Factory news letter number 21 seems to cover this in the tech talk, page 14 entitled "torque tube". Regards, Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: R.C.Harrison To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 8:18 PM Subject: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? Hi! All I'm sensitive to all eyes being focused but quite independently from the present furore I have been asked where the original suggestion came from re:- radially slotting the Tail plane pip pin holes to ensure they imparted no drive but were only as retention pins. My initial response was from a Europa Aircraft Tech Bulletin ..would those who know for definite please confirm or otherwise. Regards Bob H G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:33 AM PST US From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?= Subject: Europa-List: N81EU ~ progess Hi Thomas, I am happy to learn that N81EU is close to be back in the air. Do you know what caused of your engine failure ? Regards Remi Subject: Europa-List: N81EU ~ progess I've been quiet and that in part because I have been deeply touched by the accidents that happened between my incident on Feb 24 and now - and the Oshkosh accident last year,. All those personally affected ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:44 AM PST US From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?= Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Hi all, The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means that, in a m ore than one degree range, the tailplanes are not balanced at all. This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider that any play in the chain between the mass balance arm and the tailplanes is unacceptable: that means zero p lay between TP4 and TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and TP12. The factory so lution is Mod 62: replacement of the =C2=BC=9D pins by 3/8=9D p ins. This mod is known to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As far as I know, there are 3 solutions which have been implemented successfully by builders: - gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4 - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper pins - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all these soluti ons have their own inconveniences and must be implemented carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are far outweighed by the safety of a fully ba lanced tailplane in all conditions. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:28:23 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel selector valve location Fred Here is one way to do a fuel tap. For more details e-mail me direct Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:37:07 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wikipedia's entry on flutter Good point Jos, however, all UK Europas are not grounded, they have just given us some fairly tight criteria to consider. one tailplane pin was bent 90 degrees?! How steep is the dive to reach Vne without power and was the radar speed calculated to take into account wind and angle of dive? Graham Jos Okhuijsen wrote: > > Hi Carl, > It's that attitude where i am pointing to, IMHO it's better to use all > brains available, feed all the facts and see where the discussion > leads. The change that the right solution is found is certainly not > smaller. In a way that is happening here. Excluding myself, there are > some very knowledgeable folks around here. The problem is that the facs > are few and secondhanded. And we all feel insecure. > > > Simply grounding every plane certainly makes the flying a lot safer, no > doubt about it. But it does not affect all Europas outside the UK. One > more reason for openess about what happened. > So,let'shave the facts. Conclusions may come later. > > Jos Okhuijsen > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:16 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter I did Mod 62 and it seemed a big improvement (all holes drilled and reamed in a machine shop). 120 flying hours later it developed "a tad" of slop on one side. I have loctited that side (therefore could still remove the torque tube since loctite is on one side only). Is the idea of the AN bolt option that it clamps the two parts together? Is this a PFA approved mod? Willie > Hi all, > > The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means > that, in a more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not > balanced at all. This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider > that any play in the chain between the mass balance arm and the > tailplanes is unacceptable: that means zero play between TP4 and > TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and TP12. The factory solution is > Mod 62: replacement of the =BC=94 pins by 3/8=94 pins. This mod is known > to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As far as I know, there > are 3 solutions which have been implemented successfully by builders: > - gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4 > - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper > pins > - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts > As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all > these solutions have their own inconveniences and must be > implemented carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are far > outweighed by the safety of a fully balanced tailplane in all > conditions. > Regards > > Remi Guerner > F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:44 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? Is this available on line anywhere? Willie On 24 Jun 2007, at 08:37, Jon Smith wrote: > Hi Bob, > Factory news letter number 21 seems to cover this in the tech talk, > page 14 entitled "torque tube". > Regards, Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: R.C.Harrison > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 8:18 PM > Subject: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? > > Hi! All > > I=92m sensitive to all eyes being focused but quite independently > from the present furore I have been asked where the original > suggestion came from re:- radially slotting the Tail plane pip pin > holes to ensure they imparted no drive but were only as retention > pins. > > My initial response was from a Europa Aircraft Tech Bulletin > =85.would those who know for definite please confirm or otherwise. > > Regards > > Bob H G-PTAG > > > Robt.C.Harrison > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http:// > www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// > forums.matronics.com > ======================== > ======================== > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:27 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter William The idea of the bolt option is that it does two things. a) It clamps the two parts together. b) to ensure the tubes stay round a cross drilled spacer is fitted inside the TP4 tube. This is Loctited in. So you have both clamping and a glue joint but retain the ability to dismantle. This is not PFA approved at present but has been discussed with Andy Draper in 2005. Francis Donaldson asked me on Friday to pool any ideas we have on eliminating slop in this area. He wants to address this as part of any solution to the present problems. I will have a document ready for him, by tonight, summarising all the options (existing pins, big pins, taper pins, Bobs blocks and bolts). If anyone can think of anything else I will be glad to hear from them. If the PFA decides that bolts is the way to go, then we will have it documented and approved very quickly. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:42 AM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Hi all, Remi, I'm not sure about that. I had to replace my outer TP pins at 15 hours. 300++ hours later they are still OK, despite operating mostly from grass strips. In my opinion, the pins are very accurately made. But the holes in the TP tubes are not. My new pins were set-up so that they had to be driven in; I suspect this makes the difference. The PFA requirement is now for an "interference" fit. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: R=C3=A9mi Guerner To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:56 AM Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means that, in a more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not balanced at all. This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider that any play in the chain between the mass balance arm and the tailplanes is unacceptable: that means zero play between TP4 and TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and TP12. The factory solution is Mod 62: replacement of the =C2=BC=9D pins by 3/8=9D pins. This mod is known to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As far as I know, there are 3 solutions which have been implemented successfully by builders: - gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4 - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper pins - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all these solutions have their own inconveniences and must be implemented carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are far outweighed by the safety of a fully balanced tailplane in all conditions. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:02 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wikipedia's entry on flutter From the sound of it, many contributors to this forum are converging on a hypothesis about the failure sequence along the following lines: - Slop builds up between TP12 and TP4. Perhaps this starts as a finite amount of freeplay from an imperfect build and then continues to build up through the repeated little impacts of the stabs and mass balance bouncing off each other during normal and abnormal use, eg taxiing over rough ground, effects of being trailered etc) - Eventually, the slop builds to the point the pip pins are sharing some of the torsional loads via the TP6s. This puts increasing load on the bonded joint between the TP6 and the stab until one day that joint fails. - The implication is that the aircraft was not built with the "belt and braces" geometry in the pip pin recess (is this correct?), which would mean that the failed TP6 bond would permit lateral movement of the stab - the stab would therefore disengage both TP12/13 drive flange and also the trim tab T bar. The Trim tab T bar would at this point also be free to disengage from the other stab as well - The system is now hugely different from the design condition: 50% mass imbalance between the remaining stab and the TP19, one unrestrained stab (perhaps it came off all together ), the other stab perhaps detached from its trim tab. Flutter starts - The implication is that events moved very quickly - no time for any kind of distress message. The suggestion is that the flutter built quickly and put severe oscillating loads on the rear fuselage, perhaps torsional, and/or bending loads, until the rear fuselage fractured (is it correct that it detached completely?), at which point all control was lost - At some point in or following the above sequence it has been implied (in PFA 247/FSB 007) that there was a failure of the rear wing attachment pin. If so, it sounds like this was a consequence of the above, not a contributory cause. Does this reflect the consensus about what probably happened and why, or does anyone have an alternative explanation? Willie Harrison On 24 Jun 2007, at 01:30, Jos Okhuijsen wrote: > > Don't know if it's important, and i can't really oversee the > implications, if it's important let somebody please bring it to the > attention of the accident ivestigators. I doubt if they do > investigate these archives. > > In one of the threads about the tailplane drive the following > message has been written: > ----------------- > Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Mod. 62 - > Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive > > The other way is to clean the drive sleeve and torque tube surfaces > with > acetone and a jet of compressed air, then use a wicking grade > Loctite to > bond them together after lining up the tailplane trailing edges. It > must be > about 800 to 900 hours since I did that to mine and they are still > solid. I > will, of course, have to deal with dismantling if I ever have to, > but a heat > source inside the torque tube should do the trick. I also had to > provide > some lubricating tubes to replace the oil into the torque tube > bearings, > because the acetone washes that out too. > Regards, > William > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:40 AM PST US From: "Miles McCallum" Subject: Europa-List: Vne tests Pete Clarke, I believe, did Vne + 20kt with no issues. Vne tests - your guess is as good as ours - part of the CAA flight test regime, and some blankly refuse. Miles I have a question though .. VNE is a design speed (presumably calculated) - with some margin maybe? I was intrigued by the UK requirement to dive to VNE as part of the annual check. What exactly are you trying to prove by performing this test annually? How many of your wear parachutes when performing this test? Regards, Martin Tuck ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:34 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Europa-List: Pin interferece For what its worth, my inspector, Tony Kay, tells me he suspects that the torque tubes supplied have a variable degree of heat treatment, leading to some folk experiencing more "wear" in the holes than others. I don't think he has hard data to back his suspicions, only the observation that some torque tubes do better than other. Anyone else have views or info on this? Willie On 24 Jun 2007, at 11:14, Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote: > Hi all, > Remi, > I'm not sure about that. > I had to replace my outer TP pins at 15 hours. > 300++ hours later they are still OK, despite operating mostly from > grass strips. > > In my opinion, the pins are very accurately made. But the holes in > the TP tubes are not. My new pins were set-up so that they had to > be driven in; I suspect this makes the difference. The PFA > requirement is now for an "interference" fit. > > Duncan McF. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:40 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Thanks Ian The bolted option sounds like good engineering if done properly. One other idea I have heard suggested, (by Tony Kay) is that a snug fitting inner tube is assembled, eg with Bearing Fit /retainer grade Loctite, into the torque tube, basically to make the whole thing thicker-walled and therefore to reduce the contact stress of the pin/ tube contact areas. I think it would be a machine shop job to get the drilling and reaming done accurately so obviously the torque tube would have to come out. The other option might be simply to junk the existing torque tube and substitute something beefier (thicker walled and or harder). Not sure how the CofG works out for a mono but most trigears seem to have a hefty lump of lead in the tail so they could presumably take the extra weight of a reinforced or beefier torque tube with a corresponding reduction in the ballast weight. By the way, I think it is highly enlightened of Francis to invite ideas from owner/builders. Most of us know from uncomfortable experience what practical implications are put on any solution by the access issue, to say nothing of being "stakeholders" in the success of the outcome. Thanks for your good work. Willie Harrison On 24 Jun 2007, at 11:13, G-IANI wrote: > William > > The idea of the bolt option is that it does two things. a) It > clamps the two parts together. b) to ensure the tubes stay round a > cross drilled spacer is fitted inside the TP4 tube. This is > Loctited in. So you have both clamping and a glue joint but retain > the ability to dismantle. > > This is not PFA approved at present but has been discussed with > Andy Draper in 2005. > > Francis Donaldson asked me on Friday to pool any ideas we have on > eliminating slop in this area. He wants to address this as part of > any solution to the present problems. I will have a document ready > for him, by tonight, summarising all the options (existing pins, > big pins, taper pins, Bobs blocks and bolts). If anyone can think > of anything else I will be glad to hear from them. > > If the PFA decides that bolts is the way to go, then we will have > it documented and approved very quickly. > > > Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear > Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) > e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk > or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:30 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Duncan I think they always were supplied as an interference fit. I've noticed, however, that once they have been in and out more than once they loosen up. Pushing a drill through to drill the nylon bush is an awful thing to do to an accurate hole. Better way might be to supply the nylon bush pre drilled, then bond in the bronze bushes to fit the position of the nylon instead of the other way round. Re write the plans a bit? Graham Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote: > Hi all, > Remi, > I'm not sure about that. > I had to replace my outer TP pins at 15 hours. > 300++ hours later they are still OK, despite operating mostly from grass > strips. > > In my opinion, the pins are very accurately made. But the holes in the > TP tubes are not. My new pins were set-up so that they had to be driven > in; I suspect this makes the difference. The PFA requirement is now for > an "interference" fit. > > Duncan McF. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:00 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter William Thanks for the reminder that thick wall tube is another solution. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:32 AM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Graham, I agree that they loosen up on repeated fitment, yet I had taken great care to minimise this during the build (fitting back together only twice, less than which was not possible). As such, unless marginally oversize pins are supplied for the final fitting, the design is invalidated by the build process. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 1:12 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter > > > Duncan > I think they always were supplied as an interference fit. > I've noticed, however, that once they have been in and out more than once > they loosen up. Pushing a drill through to drill the nylon bush is an > awful thing to do to an accurate hole. > > Better way might be to supply the nylon bush pre drilled, then bond in the > bronze bushes to fit the position of the nylon instead of the other way > round. > > Re write the plans a bit? > > Graham > > Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote: >> Hi all, Remi, >> I'm not sure about that. >> I had to replace my outer TP pins at 15 hours. >> 300++ hours later they are still OK, despite operating mostly from grass >> strips. >> In my opinion, the pins are very accurately made. But the holes in the >> TP tubes are not. My new pins were set-up so that they had to be driven >> in; I suspect this makes the difference. The PFA requirement is now for >> an "interference" fit. >> Duncan McF. > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:14 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Tailplane Torque Tube From: "h&jeuropa" Fred, Yes we have installed taper pins and although we haven't flown with them, they are very secure and there is no play in the system. We did it a little differently than described initially. We loctited a tube inside the torque tube as descirbed and we opened up the original holes to accept the taper pins so they are horizontal. Since we had the oversize pins in place, there wasn't much material left on TP9, so our machine shop made steel rings which were welded in place on each side of TP9 to provide a reasonable amount of material for the taper pins. On the outer end, we just installed taper pins thru the nylon sleeve like original. Others who have the original 1/4" pins have just replaced them with taper pins as there is plenty of material available. We found that removing the torque tube assembly is not difficult just working through the access hole on the stbd side and viewing through the little hole at the base of the vertical fin on the stbd side. The most difficult part is attaching the mass balance assembly and pitch push rod to TP9! Jim Butcher Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120316#120316 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Ian, Slop on the tail planes is far from a new problem, it has frequently been reported before. Looking through history, there has been written a lot and several solutions have allready been suggested. Until now, it has not been causing an accident, now it happened everybody seems to look at it as a new problem, which it is not. One of them is the clamp system that Bob Harrison developed. Is that not reliable or not usefull or why is it not mentioned in this respect? Regards, Jos Okhuijsen -- workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane http://www.europaowners.org/kit600 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:33 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Hi! Remi You forgot my torque tube clamps as a permanent fix for no slop ever. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R=E9mi Guerner Sent: 24 June 2007 09:56 Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Hi all, The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means that, in a more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not balanced at all. This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider that any play in the chain between the mass balance arm and the tailplanes is unacceptable: that means zero play between TP4 and TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and TP12. The factory solution is Mod 62: replacement of the =BC=94 pins by 3/8=94 pins. This mod is known to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As far as I know, there are 3 solutions which have been implemented successfully by builders: - gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4 - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper pins - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all these solutions have their own inconveniences and must be implemented carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are far outweighed by the safety of a fully balanced tailplane in all conditions. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:38 AM PST US From: joseph brannen Subject: Re: Europa-List: N81EU ~ progess I believe that Scherer has illustrated the most important element in 180s, SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. JP --- Thomas Scherer wrote: > > > Hi All, > > I've been quiet and that in part because I have been > deeply touched by the > accidents that happened between my incident on Feb > 24 and now - and the > Oshkosh accident last year,. All those personally > affected and close to > those brethren we lost ~ my deepest condolences. > > Like many I am a little puzzled by the advent of > 'flutter' and will await > further details. On stalls, spins and 180's I would > like to add my 2 cent: > > I have done 180's three times in my carreer due to > not so welcoming areas > ahead ~ yet in February there was no altitude > whatsoever - not even for a > left turn. I went straight ahead and had only one > thought in mind: "keep air > over those wings til the end". I flew us into a > quary which is right > adjacent to the airport, and that was not a nice > prospective ~ but I wanted > to remain in control of the plane til the last > moment. It sure did pay off > as we walked away - only the plane was hurt. > > I think 180's or partial turns are alright as long > as you have the speed and > remain in control. Of spins I am so profoundly > afraid that I always keep her > above 75 kn, unless flaps are down and in ground > effect. Must say though > that N81EU does not appear to have that pronounced > drop of one wing as some > report. No stall strips installed. > > I am totally confident in the Europa being of good > and sound design - a very > capable airplane. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Today I want to report that in the last 48 hours > N81EU was repainted, doors > re-fitted, engine installed and wings back on. > > See a picture of her in the hangar here: > > href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/tosstudio/607079004/" > title="Photo > Sharing"> src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1089/607079004_a95d230511.jpg" > > width="500" height="500" alt="repair12" /> > > and > > href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/tosstudio/607078996/" > title="Photo > Sharing"> src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1305/607078996_eccbf1630e_o.jpg" > > width="800" height="306" alt="repair11" /> > > There is still plenty to do, yet I feel that Oshkosh > is within reach. > > Once first flight (at 980 hrs on the hobbs...) > occurs, I will send an eMail > with full story on the cause (fuel starvation) and > process of the forced > landing and the repair effort. > > be well, fly safely, > > > > > > BTW - do not install high-compression Xtra pistons. > Me and others have not > have had success with them. While you'll admittedly > gain power - other > trouble WILL arise. > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > > Web Forums! > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:29 AM PST US From: joseph brannen Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Is the tail flutter problem the consequence of having easily removable stabilators? jp --- "R.C.Harrison" wrote: > Hi! Remi > You forgot my torque tube clamps as a permanent fix > for no slop ever. > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > Robt.C.Harrison > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of Rmi > Guerner > Sent: 24 June 2007 09:56 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter > > Hi all, > > The half inch play tolerance as specified by the > factory means that, in > a more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not > balanced at all. > This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider > that any play in the > chain between the mass balance arm and the > tailplanes is unacceptable: > that means zero play between TP4 and TP9 and zero > play between TP 4 and > TP12. The factory solution is Mod 62: replacement of > the pins by 3/8 > pins. This mod is known to only delay, not > eliminate, the problem. As > far as I know, there are 3 solutions which have been > implemented > successfully by builders: > - gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4 > - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D > by AN486 taper pins > - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D > by AN bolts > As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the > past, all these > solutions have their own inconveniences and must be > implemented > carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are > far outweighed by the > safety of a fully balanced tailplane in all > conditions. > Regards > > Remi Guerner > F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 > hours > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wikipedia's entry on flutter From: Fred Klein On Sunday, June 24, 2007, at 02:39 AM, Graham Singleton wrote: > one tailplane pin was bent 90 degrees?! Wow!...first I'd heard of that...Would that have been a TP14 or a pip pin? Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:01 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Hi Bob Where can I access details of your clamp design? Cheers Willie Harrison On 24 Jun 2007, at 15:30, R.C.Harrison wrote: > Hi! Remi > > You forgot my torque tube clamps as a permanent fix for no slop ever. > > Regards > > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > > Robt.C.Harrison ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:19 AM PST US From: "Steve Pitt" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel selector valve location Fred, I have seen some elegant alterations to the fuel selector but most include changing to the Andair fuel tap sunk into the top of the tunnel (see Ira's response). I have decided that as a cheap, safe and quick option to continue to use the factory tap with a large homemade, laminated label showing the position of the fuel tap settings, taped to the top of the tunnel. This way I only have to check that the pointer feels in the right position as shown on the label and all is well. My inspector was most happy and it saved me more modifications which stop me flying. Regards Steve Pitt G-SMDH PS Andair are a company local to me in the UK. Their quality is excellent and I would not hesitate to fit their wares. (I nearly purchased the tap last year). However I endorse David Joyce's view and given that I rarely change tanks, keeping the reserve filter clean at all times, I believe the factory fit works well. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:21 AM PST US From: Jan de Jong Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa pip-pin recess Sorry, my concern is premature. My reasoning: assuming an official fix for better TP6 retention and assuming this fix incompatible with club mod then club mod must remain blessed without fix. Jan de Jong G-IANI wrote: > > > Jan > > I do not understand your reference to "an official blessing will be > needed. The Club mod is a fully approved PFA standard mod. > > Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear > Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) > e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk > or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:29 AM PST US From: "Michel AUVRAY" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Hi Robert, Do you have pictures and/or scheme of your solution? Thanks Michel Auvray Builder N145 -----Message d'origine----- De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]De la part de R.C.Harrison Envoy : dimanche 24 juin 2007 16:31 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Hi! Remi You forgot my torque tube clamps as a permanent fix for no slop ever. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rmi Guerner Sent: 24 June 2007 09:56 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Hi all, The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means that, in a more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not balanced at all. This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider that any play in the chain between the mass balance arm and the tailplanes is unacceptable: that means zero play between TP4 and TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and TP12. The factory solution is Mod 62: replacement of the pins by 3/8 pins. This mod is known to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As far as I know, there are 3 solutions which have been implemented successfully by builders: - gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4 - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper pins - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all these solutions have their own inconveniences and must be implemented carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are far outweighed by the safety of a fully balanced tailplane in all conditions. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:58 AM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: N81EU ~ progess Congratulations Thomas, she looks as good as ever. Karel Vranken # 447 only 40 hours at the moment. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Scherer" Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 6:35 AM Subject: Europa-List: N81EU ~ progess ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel selector valve location From: Fred Klein Thanks Steve, David, and Ira, As long as the factory-supplied unit serves, it's good enough for me...there are plenty of other ways to spend an extra $200.... Fred DO NOT ARCHIVE On Sunday, June 24, 2007, at 09:02 AM, Steve Pitt wrote: > > > Fred, > I have seen some elegant alterations to the fuel selector but most > include changing to the Andair fuel tap sunk into the top of the > tunnel (see Ira's response). > I have decided that as a cheap, safe and quick option to continue to > use the factory tap with a large homemade, laminated label showing the > position of the fuel tap settings, taped to the top of the tunnel. > This way I only have to check that the pointer feels in the right > position as shown on the label and all is well. > My inspector was most happy and it saved me more modifications which > stop me flying. > Regards > Steve Pitt > G-SMDH > PS Andair are a company local to me in the UK. Their quality is > excellent and I would not hesitate to fit their wares. (I nearly > purchased the tap last year). However I endorse David Joyce's view and > given that I rarely change tanks, keeping the reserve filter clean at > all times, I believe the factory fit works well. > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:32 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: N81EU ~ progess From: Fred Klein Great job Thomas...looking forward to the full story! Happy landings, Fred do not archive On Saturday, June 23, 2007, at 09:35 PM, Thomas Scherer wrote: > > > Once first flight (at 980 hrs on the hobbs...) occurs, I will send an > eMail with full story on the cause (fuel starvation) and process of > the forced landing and the repair effort. > > be well, fly safely, > > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:36 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter There is a slight misunderstanding regarding where the wear in the "torque tube assembly" occurrs. The torque tube itself is a hardened (possibly crome moly) steel. Having just implemented Mod 62 we found that there was no noticeable wear in the torque tube itself. All the wear occurred in the TP9 and TP12 components as these do not appear to be hardened steel (or as hard as the torque tube itself). You are right about the reaming needing to be done accurately and it is advisable to drill each hole from the outside and not through the tube. The reaming should also be done from the outside and not through the opposing holes. The factory specified drill size and reamer is crucial (23/64 drill and 3/8 reamer) - dont be tempted to use a 3/8 or 9.5mm drill - it will ruin the job. Incidentally we measured the factory supplied pins and found them to be a couple of thou oversize which is probably a good thing. The factory instructions say you should ream through the whole assembly but our experience was that this opened the holes out too much with a slightly looser fit. We practiced on a spare piece of mild steel tube before risking our engineering skills on the real thing. The purists among you will say this leads to misalignment of the holes however under the circumstances we found this simply made for a tighter fit. We drilled and reamed all the holes individually making sure the opposing hole had a TP14 pin inserted half way. We then assembled the whole assembly once on the workbench and it was necessary to lightly hammer all the pins into place. We thought it prudent to assemble at least once in case of a possible misalignment even though this process will have started to wear the pin holes. The risk of discovering the misalignment down the back end of the tailplane and the attendant possibility of being unable to remove the pins was not an option we wanted to contemplate. In the final event a fair amount of tapping with a hammer was needed to fully drive the pins home but has resulted in an excellent solid fit. Only time will tell how good a job this makes. Carl Pattinson G-LABS PS: Im not sure the bolted option will prevent wear/ elongation of the holes. I had a Shadow pre the Europa and a lot of the tubular components were held together using bolts - in time the holes still elongated. I did suggest to Andy that perhaps building the counterweights into the leading edge of the tailplanes would eliminate the need for the counterbalance arm but he was quick to point out this would require a substantial increase in the weight needed due to the relatively short distance between the torque tube and leading edges. Ultimately this may not be as big a problem as it seems since many Europas with heavy VP props have additional weight in the rear anyway. If this could be used to counterbalance the tailplane it would be likking two birds with one stone. Still I am not a design engineer and I havent done the sums - and wouldnt know how to. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Harrison To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 12:07 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Thanks Ian The bolted option sounds like good engineering if done properly. One other idea I have heard suggested, (by Tony Kay) is that a snug fitting inner tube is assembled, eg with Bearing Fit /retainer grade Loctite, into the torque tube, basically to make the whole thing thicker-walled and therefore to reduce the contact stress of the pin/tube contact areas. I think it would be a machine shop job to get the drilling and reaming done accurately so obviously the torque tube would have to come out. The other option might be simply to junk the existing torque tube and substitute something beefier (thicker walled and or harder). Not sure how the CofG works out for a mono but most trigears seem to have a hefty lump of lead in the tail so they could presumably take the extra weight of a reinforced or beefier torque tube with a corresponding reduction in the ballast weight. By the way, I think it is highly enlightened of Francis to invite ideas from owner/builders. Most of us know from uncomfortable experience what practical implications are put on any solution by the access issue, to say nothing of being "stakeholders" in the success of the outcome. Thanks for your good work. Willie Harrison On 24 Jun 2007, at 11:13, G-IANI wrote: William The idea of the bolt option is that it does two things. a) It clamps the two parts together. b) to ensure the tubes stay round a cross drilled spacer is fitted inside the TP4 tube. This is Loctited in. So you have both clamping and a glue joint but retain the ability to dismantle. This is not PFA approved at present but has been discussed with Andy Draper in 2005. Francis Donaldson asked me on Friday to pool any ideas we have on eliminating slop in this area. He wants to address this as part of any solution to the present problems. I will have a document ready for him, by tonight, summarising all the options (existing pins, big pins, taper pins, Bobs blocks and bolts). If anyone can think of anything else I will be glad to hear from them. If the PFA decides that bolts is the way to go, then we will have it documented and approved very quickly. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Europa-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:54 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter The final alignment could be checked by trial fitting the torque assembly using the shank of a 3/8" drill. The factory supplied pins are a couple of thou oversize which is probably deliberate. Fortunately we had the help of a licenced aircraft engineer who loaned his workshop and checked our pins with a micrometer screw guage. Not sure of the exact dimension but they were measurably oversize. Or alternately make dummy pins from 3/8" steel stock - or aircraft quality bolts. They would need to be checked with a gague to ensure they were the correct size. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 2:30 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter > > > Graham, > I agree that they loosen up on repeated fitment, yet I had taken great > care to minimise this during the build (fitting back together only twice, > less than which was not possible). > > As such, unless marginally oversize pins are supplied for the final > fitting, the design is invalidated by the build process. > > Duncan McF. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Graham Singleton" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 1:12 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter > > >> >> >> Duncan >> I think they always were supplied as an interference fit. >> I've noticed, however, that once they have been in and out more than once >> they loosen up. Pushing a drill through to drill the nylon bush is an >> awful thing to do to an accurate hole. >> >> Better way might be to supply the nylon bush pre drilled, then bond in >> the bronze bushes to fit the position of the nylon instead of the other >> way round. >> >> Re write the plans a bit? >> >> Graham >> >> Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote: >>> Hi all, Remi, >>> I'm not sure about that. >>> I had to replace my outer TP pins at 15 hours. >>> 300++ hours later they are still OK, despite operating mostly from grass >>> strips. >>> In my opinion, the pins are very accurately made. But the holes in the >>> TP tubes are not. My new pins were set-up so that they had to be driven >>> in; I suspect this makes the difference. The PFA requirement is now for >>> an "interference" fit. >>> Duncan McF. >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:22 AM PST US From: "Steve Crimm" Subject: Europa-List: Europa Training Standards Flight, In light of all the recent conversation, I think it would be appropriate for the gathering of named individuals qualified to give re-current Europa training. I myself need someone who is monowheel qualified to do re-current training. This might be a list that would be posted on the public side of the Europa Clubs website. It also might be an opportunity for training standards to be developed by this group as it relates to the Europa in it's various configurations. We did the same type of thing with the EMS helicopter industry here in the states when they were suffering from a high accident rate in the mid 80's, and got the FAA to buy into it before they and the insurance companies took the issue to extremes. By having training standards specific to the Europa we might be able to get in front of any regulatory or insurance issues and if nothing else have safer more competent pilots, not implying that we don't already. Just a though to be passed around to the group, as our aircraft and pilot numbers grow it can only be to our advantage. Besides I was never one to believed you couldn't teach an old dog new tricks. During my commercial helicopters years, I always looked forward to check rides with our most talented instructors because I always picked up one or two pointers each time as well as reviewing the standards. So if you are on the west side of the pond and interested in doing re-current monowheel training please contact me off list. Thanks, Steve Crimm N42AH ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter From: Hello Ian "Francis Donaldson asked me on Friday to pool any ideas we have on eliminating slop in this area." I am very happy with my resolution. I made pins out of 416SS ~.402" in diameter. Interference fit between .0006" and .0008". I made a slight dogbone (relief of a few thousands of an ") between interference contact areas. If I were to do it again I would make all the entrance holes slight larger than the back side and eliminate the dogbone (I did this on a few holes). I used paint primer as an assembly lubricant. Search Ron Parigoris Torque Tube for a bit more detail on procedure. A fixture for holding work is needed if the fit was as bad as mine (trilobal holes, pins slide in with just gravity, way over 3/4" differential motion at TE. Burnishing is an essential (as described in my prior post) step for a true interference fit. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter From: Hello Ian "Francis Donaldson asked me on Friday to pool any ideas we have on eliminating slop in this area." I am very happy with my resolution. I made pins out of 416SS ~.402" in diameter. Interference fit between .0006" and .0008". I made a slight dogbone (relief of a few thousands of an ") between interference contact areas. If I were to do it again I would make all the entrance holes slight larger than the back side and eliminate the dogbone (I did this on a few holes). I used paint primer as an assembly lubricant. Search Ron Parigoris Torque Tube for a bit more detail on procedure. A fixture for holding work is needed if the fit was as bad as mine (trilobal holes, pins slide in with just gravity, way over 3/4" differential motion at TE. Burnishing is an essential (as described in my prior post) step for a true interference fit. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:25 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter From: Hello Ian "Francis Donaldson asked me on Friday to pool any ideas we have on eliminating slop in this area." I am very happy with my resolution. I made pins out of 416SS ~.402" in diameter. Interference fit between .0006" and .0008". I made a slight dogbone (relief of a few thousands of an ") between interference contact areas. If I were to do it again I would make all the entrance holes slight larger than the back side and eliminate the dogbone (I did this on a few holes). I used paint primer as an assembly lubricant. Search Ron Parigoris Torque Tube for a bit more detail on procedure. A fixture for holding work is needed if the fit was as bad as mine (trilobal holes, pins slide in with just gravity, way over 3/4" differential motion at TE. Burnishing is an essential (as described in my prior post) step for a true interference fit. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:54 AM PST US From: Jan de Jong Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wikipedia's entry on flutter Hallo William, > From the sound of it, many contributors to this forum are converging > on a hypothesis about the failure sequence along the following lines: > > - Slop builds up between TP12 and TP4. Perhaps this starts as a finite > amount of freeplay from an imperfect build and then continues to build > up through the repeated little impacts of the stabs and mass balance > bouncing off each other during normal and abnormal use, eg taxiing > over rough ground, effects of being trailered etc) > > - Eventually, the slop builds to the point the pip pins are sharing > some of the torsional loads via the TP6s. This puts increasing load on > the bonded joint between the TP6 and the stab until one day that joint > fails. Maybe TP6 might also come adrift in the absence of slop? Transport? Rigging? Maybe a good shove is needed to engage drive pins in sockets? Regards, Jan de Jong ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pin interferece From: Hello Willie "> For what its worth, my inspector, Tony Kay, tells me he suspects that > the torque tubes supplied have a variable degree of heat treatment, > leading to some folk experiencing more "wear" in the holes than > others. I don't think he has hard data to back his suspicions, only > the observation that some torque tubes do better than other. Anyone > else have views or info on this?" Making a round hole with walls that are flat is not a trivial job. I reamed my holes holding parts in a fixture on my Milling Machine. I used plenty of cutting fluid, and a few reamers where the last one was very close in size where it only took a few thousands cut. If you were to measure this now what you think is the perfect hole and made a pin to fit, you would be dissapointed (as was I). I turned some mini pins growing in size ~ .0001" and forced them in place in growing incrments till a light tap wass needed. In every case to hole would grow in diameter! Some as much as .0006" , some as little as 1 or 2 tenths. Now I used my precision pins to measure holes and make pins to fit. Search Ron Parigoris torque tube for a prior post. You need to make holes at worst the same size entrance and exit and dogbone pin, but better to make entrance hole a slight bit larger (a thousand or 2), this way there will be no wear on the first hole dragginfg a full length pin through it. 416SS is pretty easy to cut, and using double sticky tape on a flat G-10 or popsicle stick with wet/dry sandpaper to hand lap works great. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter From: Hello Duncan "I agree that they loosen up on repeated fitment" Once you do what I refer to as burnishing, the hole size remains much more stable. I suspect that not only does it smooth the inperfections of the wall, but expands the metal just a bit where it becomes less resiliant to change. I talked to a guy who used to refirbish critical gear components of Gruman carrier aircraft. Before final reaming, he would use a hydraulic expander to first enlarge and stabalize hole. Making a dogbone or first hole slight larger than the second goes even further to preventing damaging fit. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:20 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa Training Standards From: "rampil" Hi All, John Hurst was the only CFI I knew who actually did sign offs for the monowheel. He did it in his role as the manager of Europa's office in the US. He did my tri-gear insurance sign-off in less than an hour. John is still in the neighborhood, actually at Lockwood in Sebring Fl, but I think, as they say he would be strongly disinclined to acquiesce to such a request at the present time. There are a number of high time monowheel pilots, even airline and military types out there in mid-Florida, but I just don't recall that any that were also CFIs. Who would you have create "official" training standards? Who is in a position to? The Europa is an exceedingly easy aircraft to fly except in one variant and in one phase of flight. I don't believe any reasonable amount of proficiency training will eliminate all the prop strikes and ground loops of the monowheel since I have seen it happen to several ATPs. It just seems there is a price to pay for that extra 5 kts. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120398#120398 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:55 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: VNE Test Question Martin PFA really only issued a " we already told you this, now you know why it's probably important" Graham MJKTuck@cs.com wrote: I'm kind of surprised the PFA has issued 'maybe it was this so modify it' bulletins > but hopefully a final fact based solution will be provided soon. > >> Regards, > Martin Tuck > Europa N152MT > Wichita, KS > > * ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:30 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Torque Tube Fred I've only done it once, but it took me an hour and a half to get the torque tube out of an XS recently, ( year or so ago) I didn't crawl in the back. It took two of us about 4 hours to get it all back again, also without crawling down the back. This XS mono had my tailwheel/rudder drive mod so there was an extra access hole below the stab which helped get another hand in to hold a spanner. Graham Fred Klein wrote: > Jim, > > What with the recent discussion of tailplane issues and my need to > address mis-aligned TP13 bushes, I came across your post in 2006. ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:42 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wikipedia's entry on flutter Jos was that William Mills' email? Highly relevant to the investigation. Graham Jos Okhuijsen wrote: > > Don't know if it's important, and i can't really oversee the > implications, if it's important let somebody please bring it to the > attention of the accident ivestigators. I doubt if they do investigate > these archives. > > In one of the threads about the tailplane drive the following message > has been written: > ----------------- > Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Mod. 62 - > Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive > > The other way is to clean the drive sleeve and torque tube surfaces with > acetone and a jet of compressed air, then use a wicking grade Loctite to > bond them together after lining up the tailplane trailing edges. It must be > about 800 to 900 hours since I did that to mine and they are still solid. I > will, of course, have to deal with dismantling if I ever have to, but a > heat > source inside the torque tube should do the trick. I also had to provide > some lubricating tubes to replace the oil into the torque tube bearings, > because the acetone washes that out too. > Regards, > William ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:42 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Duncan I think you are right. The surface finish on the pins might be unsuitable, maybe the grinding marks are rubbed off when fitting? Graham Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote: > Graham, > I agree that they loosen up on repeated fitment, > > As such, unless marginally oversize pins are supplied for the final > fitting, the design is invalidated by the build process. > > Duncan McF. ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:14 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Tailplane Torque Tube Jim my understanding is that enlarging the pin holes more than about 3/8" will start to weaken the TP9, have you increased the size much from 3/8? Graham hoping for a ride one day when you have the long wings installed! h&jeuropa wrote: > > Fred, > > Yes we have installed taper pins and although we haven't flown with them, they are very secure and there is no play in the system. We did it a little differently than described initially. We loctited a tube inside the torque tube as descirbed and we opened up the original holes to accept the taper pins so they are horizontal. Since we had the oversize pins in place, there wasn't much material left on TP9, so our machine shop made steel rings which were welded in place on each side of TP9 to provide a reasonable amount of material for the taper pins. On the outer end, we just installed taper pins thru the nylon sleeve like original. Others who have the original 1/4" pins have just replaced them with taper pins as there is plenty of material available. > > We found that removing the torque tube assembly is not difficult just working through the access hole on the stbd side and viewing through the little hole at the base of the vertical fin on the stbd side. The most difficult part is attaching the mass balance assembly and pitch push rod to TP9! > > Jim Butcher ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:44 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wikipedia's entry on flutter Pip pin I think, can you confirm Jeremy? No one has yet worked out how that happened. Graham Fred Klein wrote: > > > On Sunday, June 24, 2007, at 02:39 AM, Graham Singleton wrote: > >> one tailplane pin was bent 90 degrees?! > > > Wow!...first I'd heard of that...Would that have been a TP14 or a pip pin? > > Fred > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:42 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Carl The torque tube is chrome plated 4130 I believe, stainless isn't strong enough. You may have spotted the weakest link in the chain, if the TP9 & 12 had more bearing area the slop problem might go away. Wouldn't be much weight penalty either. OTH clamp bolting as Nigel Graham did years ago might be the best answer. Graham Carl Pattinson wrote: > There is a slight misunderstanding regarding where the wear in the > "torque tube assembly" occurrs. The torque tube itself is a hardened > (possibly crome moly) steel. > > Having just implemented Mod 62 we found that there was no noticeable > wear in the torque tube itself. All the wear occurred in the TP9 and > TP12 components as these do not appear to be hardened steel (or as hard > as the torque tube itself). ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:30 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa Training Standards From: Fred Klein On Sunday, June 24, 2007, at 03:09 PM, rampil wrote: > It just seems there is a price to pay for that extra 5 kts. ...and the "cool" factor... :-) do not archive -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:30 PM PST US From: "gregoryf.flyboy" Subject: RE: Europa-List: N81EU ~ progess Tom, Will You have post-accident pictures with the story? Good luck with the first flight, hopefully soon. Greg Fuchs (A050) do not archive On Saturday, June 23, 2007, at 09:35 PM, Thomas Scherer wrote: > > > Once first flight (at 980 hrs on the hobbs...) occurs, I will send an > eMail with full story on the cause (fuel starvation) and process of > the forced landing and the repair effort. > > be well, fly safely, > > ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:12 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Battery switch Cheers, I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor. If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a useful source. US or UK no problem. Thanks, Ferg Europa Classic 914 mono ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:18 PM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery switch These switches are readily available from most motorist retailers. They can handle automobile engine starter currents so Rotax starter currents are no problem. The only advantage of a contactor in this installation is that it is easier to control remotely. To get around this either place the switch in a position that can be easily reached or use a mechanical linkage. Nigel Charles -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle Sent: 25 June 2007 02:05 Subject: Europa-List: Battery switch Cheers, I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor. If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a useful source. US or UK no problem. Thanks, Ferg Europa Classic 914 mono ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:39 PM PST US From: "Ralph K. Hallett III" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? There are probably many of us, like myself that never get the factory news letter. How do we get it? Or, could someone post the pip pin article? Ralph Reno, NV Jon Smith wrote: > Hi Bob, > Factory news letter number 21 seems to cover this in the tech talk, > page 14 entitled "torque tube". > Regards, Jon > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* R.C.Harrison > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Friday, June 22, 2007 8:18 PM > *Subject:* Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? > > Hi! All > > Im sensitive to all eyes being focused but quite independently > from the present furore I have been asked where the original > suggestion came from re:- radially slotting the Tail plane pip pin > holes to ensure they imparted no drive but were only as retention > pins. > > My initial response was from a Europa Aircraft Tech Bulletin > .would those who know for definite please confirm or otherwise. > > Regards > > Bob H G-PTAG > > Robt.C.Harrison > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > * > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:28 PM PST US From: Roger Sheridan Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention > > Dear Forum/PFA/Europa, > > This mod has not been approved or tested and the photos are only of > a trial installation so please don't bother with too much negative > feedback - it wasn't even my idea originally! > > It does fit the tailplanes securely with no load transferred to the > internal bushes. > > I'm not proposing an alternative system, it's just an idea for > consideration by those who are reviewing the design of our > tailplane retention system. > > Brgds, > > Roger > > > > > > >
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