Europa-List Digest Archive

Mon 06/25/07


Total Messages Posted: 45



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:08 AM - Tailplane flutter (=?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?=)
     2. 01:09 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (R.C.Harrison)
     3. 01:28 AM - Bob Harrison's Torque Tube Clamp Mod (John Cliff)
     4. 02:16 AM - TP12 (Klaus Dietrich)
     5. 02:52 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (G-IANI)
     6. 03:13 AM - Article on flutter (William Harrison)
     7. 03:16 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (Hans Siedsma)
     8. 03:42 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Nigel Graham)
     9. 03:47 AM - Re: TP12 (R.C.Harrison)
    10. 03:48 AM - Re : TP12 (NEEL Jean Philippe)
    11. 04:06 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Graham Singleton)
    12. 04:08 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (William Harrison)
    13. 04:30 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Karl Heindl)
    14. 04:52 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Nigel Graham)
    15. 06:01 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Nigel Graham)
    16. 06:18 AM - Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
    17. 06:44 AM - Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (Mark Burton)
    18. 07:25 AM - Re: Article on flutter, now attached (William Harrison)
    19. 08:21 AM - Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (RobNeils)
    20. 08:43 AM - Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (rampil)
    21. 08:51 AM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Brian Davies)
    22. 08:57 AM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (R.C.Harrison)
    23. 09:11 AM - Re: Article on flutter, now attached (Gilles Thesee)
    24. 09:32 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (William Daniell)
    25. 10:13 AM - Re: Battery switch (Terry Seaver (terrys))
    26. 10:43 AM - Re: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (Brian Davies)
    27. 10:48 AM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Raimo Toivio)
    28. 11:37 AM - Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (rampil)
    29. 11:53 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
    30. 12:30 PM - Re: trigear vs. mono (Karl Heindl)
    31. 12:51 PM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Karl Heindl)
    32. 01:05 PM - Re: Battery switch (Ralph K. Hallett III)
    33. 01:40 PM - Re: Article on flutter, now attached (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
    34. 02:09 PM - Re: Article on flutter, now attached (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
    35. 02:25 PM - Re: Article on flutter, now attached (Jeff B)
    36. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (Brian Davies)
    37. 02:37 PM - Re: Article on flutter, now attached (Gilles Thesee)
    38. 03:37 PM - tailplane balance (Richard Iddon)
    39. 03:42 PM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Graham Singleton)
    40. 03:49 PM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Graham Singleton)
    41. 03:58 PM - Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (Graham Singleton)
    42. 04:13 PM - Re: tailplane balance (Graham Singleton)
    43. 08:21 PM - Re: Tailplane Retention (Bill and Sue)
    44. 08:59 PM - Tailplane flutter (Fred Klein)
    45. 09:20 PM - Re: Article on flutter, now attached (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:08:45 AM PST US
    From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?= <air.guerner@wanadoo.fr>
    Subject: Tailplane flutter
    Hi Graham, Sorry I missed your clamp solution. Anyway, I went the taper pin way. Easy to do and very effective. Remi From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Hi! Remi You forgot my torque tube clamps as a permanent fix for no slop ever. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R=E9mi Guerner Sent: 24 June 2007 09:56 Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Hi all, The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means that, in a more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not balanced at all. This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider that any play in the chain between the mass balance arm and the tailplanes is unacceptable: that means zero play between TP4 and TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and TP12. The factory solution is Mod 62: replacement of the =BC=94 pins by 3/8=94 pins. This mod is known to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As far as I know, there are 3 solutions which have been implemented successfully by builders: - gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4 - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper pins - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all these solutions have their own inconveniences and must be implemented carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are far outweighed by the safety of a fully balanced tailplane in all conditions. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours


    Message 2


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    Time: 01:09:35 AM PST US
    From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Tailplane Retention
    Hi! Roger I think the concept is an excellent one but.......(NOT BEING NEGATIVE) a) I would prefer not to invade the existing drive plate and I don't like sharp filed corners in "canware fabrications". I'd think that the locator plate could be "fashioned" to engage behind the welded pin without any filing of the drive plates. b) I would prefer to have two such retainers on each tail plane fore and aft of the drive plates. Both similarly "fashioned" as a) above. c) I could imagine a temporary rigging prop tool to drop between the two (as in (b) above) upstandings on the surface of the tail planes to assist one man rigging to be removed prior to engaging the pip pins. IMHO my clamps take care of the inboard problems, your concept as above takes care of the outboard problems, this then only leaves the central horn possibility! But of course we mere mortals aren't yet privy to all that we are looking to solve. To enable innovative ideas to be contributed it would be more helpful for us to "see the horse before we start mending the cart"! Hopefully you have copied Ian Rickard in on this concept in time prior to decisions being made about massive tailplane invasion.? Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Sheridan Sent: 25 June 2007 07:53 Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention > > Dear Forum/PFA/Europa, > > This mod has not been approved or tested and the photos are only of > a trial installation so please don't bother with too much negative > feedback - it wasn't even my idea originally! > > It does fit the tailplanes securely with no load transferred to the > internal bushes. > > I'm not proposing an alternative system, it's just an idea for > consideration by those who are reviewing the design of our > tailplane retention system. > > Brgds, > > Roger >


    Message 3


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    Time: 01:28:05 AM PST US
    From: "John Cliff" <mx@jcliff.waitrose.com>
    Subject: Bob Harrison's Torque Tube Clamp Mod
    > Hi Bob >Where can I access details of your clamp design? Try http://www.crix.org.uk and follow link to Bob Harrison's Europa, then Stabilator Mod (but ignore links to my old email address !) John Cliff


    Message 4


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    Time: 02:16:34 AM PST US
    From: Klaus Dietrich <klaus.dietrich@oracle.com>
    Subject: TP12
    in 1999 I glued my TP12 on to the TP4 torque tube using Loctite 603, because I had some play (less than 1/2"); today and some 700 hours later I can report that this fix proved itself as I have 0 play! Klaus (MkI, OE-CKD) *Date: * */Feb 21, 1999/* *From: * */Klaus Dietrich <101613.3377(at)compuserve.com>/* *Subject: * /*Re: TP6's </searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=9323947?KEYS=loctite?LISTNAME=Europa?HITNUMBER=93?SERIAL=01571730176?SHOWBUTTONS=NO>*/ *I finaly decided to repair my play in the TP 12 by glueing it to the TP 4 torque tube. I used Loctite 603 (for lightly oil contaminated parts, shear strength 3.700 psi) which I applied on the torque tube on the 10 mm inbord of TP 12. I did this only after careful in-situ testing how to soften the glue again in case of disassembling without heating the aircraft structure or softening the Redux holding the TP 11 bushes. In case you are going this route, here is the way to go: take a halogen bulb of 150W (size: 75 mm long) which will be centrally mounted between two discs (made of some scrap of the firewall material) with a diameter of 34mm. The discs are hold together by two threaded wire rods (2mm diameter) each with a nut on both ends. For the electrical contacts I disassembled the halogene spot (cost Euro 5,--) and used the small metall contacts which I mounted centrally to the discs. The electric cables which are crimped on the contacts are running on each side of the assembly. The complete assembly is than slided into the torque tube and placed exactly under the TP 12 well inboard of the TP 11 bushes, where the glue is. One cable will go to the left and one to the right end of the tube. When you switch on the light, very concentrated heat will be emitted by the bulb which heats the tube from the inside on a length of not more than 70 mm. The Loctite needs about 150=B0C to soften completely. This temperature will be reached easily after 2 to 2,5 minutes. You can than slide the TP 12 out again and swich off the heat. The "firewall discs" help to concentrate the heat and the TP 11 bushes don't get any more than "handwarm" (not more than 40=B0C). Thanks to Jim N. for this idea! It works perfectly. For those who are still building, make shure you are using anchor nuts to fix the servo motor and the trim assembly below as well as shackles or turnbuckles for the safety cables which are holding the counterwight......this will asure you an easy disassembly of all the "mechanics" in the back of the fuselage; something which inevitably will happen sooner or later..... Obviousely you'll need also an access panel at this very strategic place.....You may also file the heads of the pins square to be able to turn them with a spanner to position the hole of the split pin. Have fun...it's just a 10 minutes fix (I'm Ivan's disciple....) Klaus * -- Klaus Dietrich Oracle Financing EMEA Tel/Fax: +43 1 33 777 825 http://www.oracle.com/financing


    Message 5


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    Time: 02:52:00 AM PST US
    From: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
    Subject: Tailplane Retention
    Roger Thanks this is GREAT. What we all want is this sort of thinking, outside the box. Please do not apologise for any failings others might spot. This may be the seed of the idea that saves us all a lot of problems. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com


    Message 6


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    Time: 03:13:28 AM PST US
    From: William Harrison <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
    Subject: Article on flutter
    Dear All There was an enlightening article on flutter in June's edition of Flyer Magazine.I was unable to get a legible scan of it to attach to this but I have asked the editor if they can give me an electronic file of the article so it can be distributed on this forum. In the meantime, you might like to search out a copy of the magazine (I stole mine from the dentist's waiting room this morning...). The article echoed many of the issues we have discussed (slop, mass balance, etc) but also makes some other interesting points, including the behaviour and consequences of disconnected trim tabs. By the way, on the subject of Loctite, presumably any benefit it could offer would depend on where the TP12 is in its freeplay range when the Loctite sets. If the slop is already bad enough that the pip pin is sharing the torsional loads and the TP12 is Loctited at one extreme of its range of movement then would that not continue to stress the TP6 bond? Willie


    Message 7


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    Time: 03:16:34 AM PST US
    From: "Hans Siedsma" <h.siedsma@inter.nl.net>
    Subject: Tailplane Retention
    Perhaps it is stupid but I think about the following solution. Pre- load the TP12 pin. Easy to do without taken the tail system in part. Drill a hole just behind the TP 12 ( Perhaps only 4 mm ) Take a piece of spring metal. Through the hole and than bench it around under load. I have no idea what the pre-load have to be to avoid any movement on the pins. The spring can be heavy due to the fact you can use a long piece and cut after assembly or make a special tool. My tail has already 6.5 mm play on the trailing edge and my plane did not fly one meter. It has no play on the TP9. My holes are drilled at a special workshop. It all look perfect but .... Perhaps this is not a solution for the aviation... Hans -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Namens G-IANI Verzonden: maandag 25 juni 2007 11:52 Aan: europa-list@matronics.com Onderwerp: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention Roger Thanks this is GREAT. What we all want is this sort of thinking, outside the box. Please do not apologise for any failings others might spot. This may be the seed of the idea that saves us all a lot of problems. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com


    Message 8


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    Time: 03:42:21 AM PST US
    From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
    Subject: Tailplane flutter
    Hi Graham, FYI - I am working with Ian Rickard at the moment to document exactly what I did and present this to the PFA. To enlighten those of you not familiar with this mod: A long time ago I identified the inherent shortfall with the TP14 method of securing the drive arms to the torque tube. Merely replacing these pins with oversized pins would not in my opinion, cure the problem - only delay the next re-occurrence once play developed. I developed a simple arrangement (KISS technology) that positively clamps the drive arms (TP9 and TP12) onto the torque tube by replacing all four TP14 pins with 1/4" x 2.125" AN bolts. To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four stations. To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle blocks" (profiled to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head and castellated nut. The beauty of clamping is that it introduces a torque damper into the drive system - eliminating the shock "chattering" that wears the standard TP14 pins and elongates the holes - and it can be retrofitted to tubes with worn holes. Nigel (The other one) Graham -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: 25 June 2007 00:25 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> Carl The torque tube is chrome plated 4130 I believe, stainless isn't strong enough. You may have spotted the weakest link in the chain, if the TP9 & 12 had more bearing area the slop problem might go away. Wouldn't be much weight penalty either. OTH clamp bolting as Nigel Graham did years ago might be the best answer. Graham


    Message 9


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    Time: 03:47:08 AM PST US
    From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: TP12
    Hi! Klaus I appreciate your posting, however how can you be sure that the loctite penetrated on both sides equally and how can you calculate when the bond may fail? My torque tube is nickel plated and there is evidence of the nickel breaking away .just could take your bond away ? Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Klaus Dietrich Sent: 25 June 2007 10:15 Subject: Europa-List: TP12 in 1999 I glued my TP12 on to the TP4 torque tube using Loctite 603, because I had some play (less than 1/2"); today and some 700 hours later I can report that this fix proved itself as I have 0 play! Klaus


    Message 10


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    Time: 03:48:55 AM PST US
    From: NEEL Jean Philippe <jeanphilippeneel@yahoo.fr>
    Subject: TP12
    Merci Klaus=0AIl y a des hommes d'avant garde qui trouvent tout de suite la bonne solution !=0AAs tu ecris quelque chose sur la methode pour realiser ce collage=0AAmiti=E9s =0AJP =0A=0A=0A----- Message d'origine ----=0ADe : Klaus Dietrich <klaus.dietrich@oracle.com>=0A=C0 : Europa-List Digest Serve r <europa-list@matronics.com>=0AEnvoy=E9 le : Lundi, 25 Juin 2007, 11h15mn 01s=0AObjet : Europa-List: TP12=0A=0Ain 1999 I glued my TP12 on to the TP4 torque tube using Loctite 603, because I had some play (less than 1/2"); to day and some 700 hours later I can report that this fix proved itself as I have 0 play!=0AKlaus =0A(MkI, OE-CKD)=0A=0ADate: Feb 21, 1999=0AFrom: Klaus Dietrich <101613.3377(at)compuserve.com>=0ASubject: Re: TP6's=0A=0AI final y decided to repair my play in the TP 12 by glueing it to the TP 4 torque t ube. I used Loctite 603 (for lightly oil contaminated parts, shear strength 3.700 psi) which I applied on the torque tube on the 10 mm inbord of TP 12 . I did this only after careful in-situ testing how to soften the glue agai n in case of disassembling without heating the aircraft structure or soften ing the Redux holding the TP 11 bushes. In case you are going this route, h ere is the way to go: take a halogen bulb of 150W (size: 75 mm long) which will be centrally mounted between two discs (made of some scrap of the fire wall material) with a diameter of 34mm. The discs are hold together by two threaded wire rods (2mm diameter) each with a nut on both ends. For the ele ctrical contacts I disassembled the halogene spot (cost Euro 5,--) and used the small metall contacts which I mounted centrally to the discs. The elec tric cables which are crimped on the contacts are running on each side of t he assembly. The complete assembly is than slided into the torque tube and pl aced exactly under the TP 12 well inboard of the TP 11 bushes, where the gl ue is. One cable will go to the left and one to the right end of the tube. When you switch on the light, very concentrated heat will be emitted by the bulb which heats the tube from the inside on a length of not more than 70 mm. The Loctite needs about 150=B0C to soften completely. This temperatur e will be reached easily after 2 to 2,5 minutes. You can than slide the TP 12 out again and swich off the heat. The "firewall discs" help to concentra te the heat and the TP 11 bushes don't get any more than "handwarm" (not mo re than 40=B0C). Thanks to Jim N. for this idea! It works perfectly. For those who are still building, make shure you are using anchor nuts to fix t he servo motor and the trim assembly below as well as shackles or turnbuckl es for the safety cables which are holding the counterwight......this will asure you an easy disassembly of all the "mechanics" in the back of the fuselage; something which inevitably will happen sooner or later..... Obviousely you'll need al so an access panel at this very strategic place.....You may also file the h eads of the pins square to be able to turn them with a spanner to position the hole of the split pin. Have fun...it's just a 10 minutes fix (I'm Ivan' s disciple....) Klaus =0A-- =0A=0AKlaus Dietrich =0AOracle Financing EMEA =0ATel/Fax: +43 1 33 777 825=0Ahttp://www.oracle.com/financing=0A=0A=0A=0A =====0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________ _____________________________ =0ANe gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail


    Message 11


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    Time: 04:06:36 AM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Tailplane flutter
    Nigel Hi! sorry to hear about your motor bike incident, get better soon. Your mod is probably the neatest one and good engineering practice. I will be surprised if PFA don't like it, not invented here syndrome seems unlikely in this case. {{;-) Graham Nigel Graham wrote: > > Hi Graham, > > FYI - I am working with Ian Rickard at the moment to document exactly what I > did and present this to the PFA.


    Message 12


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    Time: 04:08:57 AM PST US
    From: William Harrison <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Tailplane flutter
    Nigel, Would there be any problem with doing this with 3/8 bolts on an aircraft which had Mod 62 already done to it? This is such an appealing idea I think. Willie On 25 Jun 2007, at 11:29, Nigel Graham wrote: > <nigel_graham@btconnect.com> > > Hi Graham, > > FYI - I am working with Ian Rickard at the moment to document > exactly what I > did and present this to the PFA. > > To enlighten those of you not familiar with this mod: > A long time ago I identified the inherent shortfall with the TP14 > method of > securing the drive arms to the torque tube. Merely replacing these > pins with > oversized pins would not in my opinion, cure the problem - only > delay the > next re-occurrence once play developed. > > I developed a simple arrangement (KISS technology) that positively > clamps > the drive arms (TP9 and TP12) onto the torque tube by replacing all > four > TP14 pins with 1/4" x 2.125" AN bolts. > To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide > cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four > stations. > To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle > blocks" (profiled > to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head > and > castellated nut. > > The beauty of clamping is that it introduces a torque damper into > the drive > system - eliminating the shock "chattering" that wears the standard > TP14 > pins and elongates the holes - and it can be retrofitted to tubes > with worn > holes. > > Nigel (The other one) Graham > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham > Singleton > Sent: 25 June 2007 00:25 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter > > > <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> > > Carl > The torque tube is chrome plated 4130 I believe, stainless isn't > strong > enough. > You may have spotted the weakest link in the chain, if the TP9 & 12 > had > more bearing area the slop problem might go away. Wouldn't be much > weight penalty either. > OTH clamp bolting as Nigel Graham did years ago might be the best > answer. > Graham > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 04:30:44 AM PST US
    From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: Tailplane flutter
    Hi Nigel, My main concern with this mod would be the insertion of the (predrilled) 15mm discs into a tube with anti-corrosion paint on the inside. Would there be a suitable reamer to get it absolutely smooth, also to remove any burr from the enlarged holes. Then how do you aim to position the discs so that all the holes line up ? Maybe a threaded hole in the centre for attaching a long rod temporarily just for the lineup ? Karl >From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btconnect.com> >To: <europa-list@matronics.com> >Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:29:20 +0100 > ><nigel_graham@btconnect.com> > >Hi Graham, > >FYI - I am working with Ian Rickard at the moment to document exactly what >I >did and present this to the PFA. > >To enlighten those of you not familiar with this mod: >A long time ago I identified the inherent shortfall with the TP14 method of >securing the drive arms to the torque tube. Merely replacing these pins >with >oversized pins would not in my opinion, cure the problem - only delay the >next re-occurrence once play developed. > >I developed a simple arrangement (KISS technology) that positively clamps >the drive arms (TP9 and TP12) onto the torque tube by replacing all four >TP14 pins with 1/4" x 2.125" AN bolts. >To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide >cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four stations. >To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle blocks" >(profiled >to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head and >castellated nut. > >The beauty of clamping is that it introduces a torque damper into the drive >system - eliminating the shock "chattering" that wears the standard TP14 >pins and elongates the holes - and it can be retrofitted to tubes with worn >holes. > >Nigel (The other one) Graham > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham >Singleton >Sent: 25 June 2007 00:25 >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter > > ><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> > >Carl >The torque tube is chrome plated 4130 I believe, stainless isn't strong >enough. >You may have spotted the weakest link in the chain, if the TP9 & 12 had >more bearing area the slop problem might go away. Wouldn't be much >weight penalty either. >OTH clamp bolting as Nigel Graham did years ago might be the best answer. >Graham > > _________________________________________________________________ Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/


    Message 14


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    Time: 04:52:26 AM PST US
    From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
    Subject: Tailplane flutter
    Willie, I can think of no reason why not. The only point you need to check is the bolt head to rear bulkhead clearance. The circumference of the TP9 and TP12 is only about 16mm away from this bulkhead - so the total assembly thickness is a limiting factor and I'm not sure how deep a 3/8" bolt head is. If this did prove to be a problem, small 1/4" to 3/8" step-down spigots would solve the problem and allow you to use 1/4" bolts. Nigel (The other one) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of William Harrison Sent: 25 June 2007 12:09 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk> Nigel, Would there be any problem with doing this with 3/8 bolts on an aircraft which had Mod 62 already done to it? This is such an appealing idea I think. Willie On 25 Jun 2007, at 11:29, Nigel Graham wrote: > <nigel_graham@btconnect.com> > > Hi Graham, > > FYI - I am working with Ian Rickard at the moment to document > exactly what I > did and present this to the PFA. > > To enlighten those of you not familiar with this mod: > A long time ago I identified the inherent shortfall with the TP14 > method of > securing the drive arms to the torque tube. Merely replacing these > pins with > oversized pins would not in my opinion, cure the problem - only > delay the > next re-occurrence once play developed. > > I developed a simple arrangement (KISS technology) that positively > clamps > the drive arms (TP9 and TP12) onto the torque tube by replacing all > four > TP14 pins with 1/4" x 2.125" AN bolts. > To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide > cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four > stations. > To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle > blocks" (profiled > to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head > and > castellated nut. > > The beauty of clamping is that it introduces a torque damper into > the drive > system - eliminating the shock "chattering" that wears the standard > TP14 > pins and elongates the holes - and it can be retrofitted to tubes > with worn > holes. > > Nigel (The other one) Graham >


    Message 15


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    Time: 06:01:24 AM PST US
    From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
    Subject: Tailplane flutter
    Hi Karl, You're clearly thinking this through! My description was only an abstract to give an idea of the concept. The detailed proposals handle preparation insertion and bonding. Here is a description for those of you with an enquiring mind - I will not take offence if the rest of you skip this! TP4 has to be de-greased and de-burred inside prior to insertion. The discs have a scribe line on one side to indicate the orientation of the cross drill (facilitating alignment). You were on the money with regard to the insertion tool. A 6.0mm threaded bar (with two lock nuts) screws into a central hole in the disc. This allows the discs to be inserted into TP4 and rotated into correct alignment - two from one side and two from the other. The discs have a shallow groove centrally around the circumference. Once in position, bearing grade anaerobic adhesive (Loctite) is introduced through one of the TP4 holes and the discs rotated to distribute the adhesive. This ensures concentricity and accommodates any small variance of inside diameter. An AN4 bolt can be temporally inserted to locate the disc in the correct position and the thread bar removed. In this way, all four discs are placed and bonded. The 6mm holes also serve to cross vent the tube and provide a method (via spray tube) of introducing the anti-corrosion treatment of your choice (ACF50, WD40, Shell "Ensis" fluid, granny's beef dripping) into TP4. Once bonded, the tail can be re-assembled. The bolts have to be inserted from the rear to guarantee clearance with the rear bulkhead. This will involve rotating the TP4 assy up through 90 degrees to allow the bolts to be inserted from underneath. (The counter balance arm needs to be removed first). It does have the advantage that the castellated nuts and split pins can be inserted from the front of TP4 and not tucked behind as in the TP14 assembly instructions. Hope this answers some of you (good) questions. Nigel (The other one) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: 25 June 2007 12:30 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Hi Nigel, My main concern with this mod would be the insertion of the (predrilled) 15mm discs into a tube with anti-corrosion paint on the inside. Would there be a suitable reamer to get it absolutely smooth, also to remove any burr from the enlarged holes. Then how do you aim to position the discs so that all the holes line up ? Maybe a threaded hole in the centre for attaching a long rod temporarily just for the lineup ? Karl >From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btconnect.com> >To: <europa-list@matronics.com> >Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:29:20 +0100 > ><nigel_graham@btconnect.com> > >Hi Graham, > >FYI - I am working with Ian Rickard at the moment to document exactly what >I >did and present this to the PFA. > >To enlighten those of you not familiar with this mod: >A long time ago I identified the inherent shortfall with the TP14 method of >securing the drive arms to the torque tube. Merely replacing these pins >with >oversized pins would not in my opinion, cure the problem - only delay the >next re-occurrence once play developed. > >I developed a simple arrangement (KISS technology) that positively clamps >the drive arms (TP9 and TP12) onto the torque tube by replacing all four >TP14 pins with 1/4" x 2.125" AN bolts. >To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide >cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four stations. >To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle blocks" >(profiled >to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head and >castellated nut. > >The beauty of clamping is that it introduces a torque damper into the drive >system - eliminating the shock "chattering" that wears the standard TP14 >pins and elongates the holes - and it can be retrofitted to tubes with worn >holes. > >Nigel (The other one) Graham > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham >Singleton >Sent: 25 June 2007 00:25 >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter > > ><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> > >Carl >The torque tube is chrome plated 4130 I believe, stainless isn't strong >enough. >You may have spotted the weakest link in the chain, if the TP9 & 12 had >more bearing area the slop problem might go away. Wouldn't be much >weight penalty either. >OTH clamp bolting as Nigel Graham did years ago might be the best answer. >Graham > > _________________________________________________________________ Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/


    Message 16


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    Time: 06:18:59 AM PST US
    From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
    Subject: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type
    Greetings team, As I read through the various theories of why the pin holes elongate I'm left with a question that nobody seems to be asking (or maybe somebody did ask and I missed it). This is a little out of my area of expertise, but it seems rational to me that either a mono or a conventional gear Europa, i.e., one with a tailwheel, would transfer significantly more stress loads to the components in the rear of the aircraft, thus leading to more wear on everything back there. By contrast, the trigear would dampen those stress loads by virtue of the main gear being a considerable distance from the parts in question, thus damping any forces transferred to the tail area. Stresses transferred by a trigear would further be damped by the spring action of the main gear legs and the tires (tyres). Has anyone ever correlated pin wear to landing gear type? Are there more mono's and conventional gear Europa's showing pin wear and or hole elongation than trigears? In my case, N245E, a trigear, now has a bit over 100 hours TT. About 90% of the take offs and landings thus far have been made from my grass strip and my pip pins are still tight as a tick. I have observed no increased play in the tailplanes and only a slight amount of play in the trim tabs and that hasn't changed since day one. I've also looked closely at all the hardware in the tail and I cannot detect any wear on any components whatsoever. I know this is anecdotal at best, but it seams reasonable for those in the know to correla te pin wear to landing gear type as they chase down the root cause of the wear that caused the tailplane flutter. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


    Message 17


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    Time: 06:44:52 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type
    From: "Mark Burton" <markb@ordern.com>
    > the wear that caused the tailplane flutter At this time, we don't know that any wear (if it was actually present) did cause the flutter. The AAIB/PFA may decide that the evidence shows that it did but they haven't, to my knowledge, announced that yet. Please don't missunderstand me, I am all for improving the integrity of the Europa tailplane system but let's base the discussion on known facts rather than guesses. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120504#120504


    Message 18


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    Time: 07:25:42 AM PST US
    From: William Harrison <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Article on flutter, now attached
    Dear All Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF and may be easier to read if you print it. The link to their website incidentally is: www.flyer.co.uk Willie Harrison <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier"> </b></font></pre></body></html>


    Message 19


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    Time: 08:21:29 AM PST US
    From: "RobNeils" <RobNeils@qwest.net>
    Subject: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type
    N128HW, a tri-gear motorglider, is operated out of a grass strip (WN92, Spokane, Washington). The tailplane is tight across all parameters after 150 hours of engine time. ----- Original Message ----- From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 6:18 AM Subject: Europa-List: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type Greetings team, As I read through the various theories of why the pin holes elongate I'm left with a question that nobody seems to be asking (or maybe somebody did ask and I missed it). This is a little out of my area of expertise, but it seems rational to me that either a mono or a conventional gear Europa, i.e., one with a tailwheel, would transfer significantly more stress loads to the components in the rear of the aircraft, thus leading to more wear on everything back there. By contrast, the trigear would dampen those stress loads by virtue of the main gear being a considerable distance from the parts in question, thus damping any forces transferred to the tail area. Stresses transferred by a trigear would further be damped by the spring action of the main gear legs and the tires (tyres). Has anyone ever correlated pin wear to landing gear type? Are there more mono's and conventional gear Europa's showing pin wear and or hole elongation than trigears? In my case, N245E, a trigear, now has a bit over 100 hours TT. About 90% of the take offs and landings thus far have been made from my grass strip and my pip pins are still tight as a tick. I have observed no increased play in the tailplanes and only a slight amount of play in the trim tabs and that hasn't changed since day one. I've also looked closely at all the hardware in the tail and I cannot detect any wear on any components whatsoever. I know this is anecdotal at best, but it seams reasonable for those in the know to correlate pin wear to landing gear type as they chase down the root cause of the wear that caused the tailplane flutter. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com.


    Message 20


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    Time: 08:43:34 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type
    From: "rampil" <ira.rampil@gmail.com>
    To take Mark's point a bit further, we do not even know at this point that flutter was indeed involved in this mishap. All that is publically known is that a worst case presumption of flutter was stated as a rationale to ground the (UK) fleet. I'd personally like to know if the physical evidence is strongly suggestive, or simply possible of a link to flutter. Were there close by witnesses, were the tailplanes 500 feet behind the rest of the airframe? Is a metallurgical analysis of the torque tube being done? The mention of flutter has brought a whole lot of comment, including many suggestions to repair components which are not yet know to be responsible. It would certainly be nice if Andy, or someone from E04 could elucidate the situation instead of having all of us wait in the dark for 12 months. Ira -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120522#120522


    Message 21


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    Time: 08:51:16 AM PST US
    From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
    Subject: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
    Hi Ralph, This is one of the services the Europa Club provides. If you join I can send you a CD with all of the back issues of the factory newsletters. Just go to www.europaclub.org.uk Brian Davies, membership secretary, Europa Club -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K. Hallett III Sent: 25 June 2007 05:16 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? --> <n100rh@sbcglobal.net> There are probably many of us, like myself that never get the factory news letter. How do we get it? Or, could someone post the pip pin article? Ralph Reno, NV Jon Smith wrote: > Hi Bob, > Factory news letter number 21 seems to cover this in the tech talk, > page 14 entitled "torque tube". > Regards, Jon > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* R.C.Harrison <mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com <mailto:europa-list@matronics.com> > *Sent:* Friday, June 22, 2007 8:18 PM > *Subject:* Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? > > Hi! All > > Im sensitive to all eyes being focused but quite independently > from the present furore I have been asked where the original > suggestion came from re:- radially slotting the Tail plane pip pin > holes to ensure they imparted no drive but were only as retention > pins. > > My initial response was from a Europa Aircraft Tech Bulletin > .would those who know for definite please confirm or otherwise. > > Regards > > Bob H G-PTAG > > Robt.C.Harrison > > * > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matro > nhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > * > > * > > > * 09:43 09:43


    Message 22


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    Time: 08:57:25 AM PST US
    From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Wikipedia's entry on flutter
    Resent message since the Matronics Forum will not receive mail as a "cc" recipient. Bob H -----Original Message----- From: R.C.Harrison [mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: 25 June 2007 16:48 Cc: europa-list@matronics.com; 'G-IANI' Subject: Europa Mod chase....... For the attention of Andy Draper Chief Engineer Popular Flying Association and Ian Rickard Europa Club Mods Rep. Hi! Andy and Ian. I see there is some competition in respect of clamping modifications to the tail plane drive assembly and you are "working feverishly" to get paperwork done for it's approval. My Clamp mod No. 10623 has already been approved by the PFA. It is a long time established system and no problems have been reported, in fact I have received numerous communications of satisfaction from those who had the foresight to take it on board and make an investment. Copy of message just sent to Andy Draper and Ian Rickard the copy bounced by The Matronics Forum since it will not receive "cc" mail. Regards Bob H I would request that the interests of all those who already have my system incorporated are seriously considered and if at all possible their previous expense is not wasted by a superimposed modification forcing redundancy on them which is IMHO "re-inventing the wheel". In other words please ensure that any plan for mandatory modification encompasses consideration of an exemption for those of my clients who have already paid out to accommodate these "belt and braces" requirements and or allow my modification to be offered as an option be it mandatory or not. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG. Robt.C.Harrison


    Message 23


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    Time: 09:11:02 AM PST US
    From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
    Subject: Re: Article on flutter, now attached
    William Harrison a crit : > Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us > distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF > and may be easier to read if you print it. William and all, Thanks for this very knowledgeable article. By the way, balancing control surfaces directly instead of using a bob weight on a balance arm is considered safer when practicable, especially if the weight is evenly distributed spanwise. I'm aware of at least two aerobatics airplanes that went down due to aileron balance arm attachment failure followed by explosive flutter. In one case the crew was able to bail out. Has anyone mentioned balancing each tailplane directly with lead in the leading edge? This would eliminate any possible slop on the balance arm attachment points and reduce wear an tear on the torque tube. FWIW, Best regards, -- Gilles, http://contrails.free.fr


    Message 24


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    Time: 09:32:26 AM PST US
    From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
    Subject: Tailplane flutter
    Hey bob can we talk off line so I can get a set Will _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 09:31 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Hi! Remi You forgot my torque tube clamps as a permanent fix for no slop ever. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R=E9mi Guerner Sent: 24 June 2007 09:56 Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Hi all, The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means that, in a more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not balanced at all. This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider that any play in the chain between the mass balance arm and the tailplanes is unacceptable: that means zero play between TP4 and TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and TP12. The factory solution is Mod 62: replacement of the =BC=94 pins by 3/8=94 pins. This mod is known to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As far as I know, there are 3 solutions which have been implemented successfully by builders: - gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4 - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper pins - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all these solutions have their own inconveniences and must be implemented carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are far outweighed by the safety of a fully balanced tailplane in all conditions. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours


    Message 25


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    Time: 10:13:58 AM PST US
    Subject: Battery switch
    From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys@cisco.com>
    Hi Ferg, We installed a mechanical contactor in the passenger side head rest, as shown in the following link, look under the 'Battery master switch' link; http://terryseaver.home.comcast.net/N135TD_mods.htm Regards, Terry Seaver A135 / N135TD -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 6:05 PM Subject: Europa-List: Battery switch Cheers, I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor. If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a useful source. US or UK no problem. Thanks, Ferg Europa Classic 914 mono


    Message 26


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    Time: 10:43:44 AM PST US
    From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type
    Ira, For clarification, the UK Europa fleet is not grounded. Only those aircraft that have failed the PFA Flight Safety Bulletin are grounded until rectification action is taken. We have indications that the AAIB will be issueing a preliminary report within the next week. We all want a lasting and efficient solution to whatever is judged to be the fix for a yet unspecified problem. Regrettably, this always results in a delay whilst investigations are carried out and modifications (if necessary) are designed. Brian Davies -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil Sent: 25 June 2007 16:42 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type To take Mark's point a bit further, we do not even know at this point that flutter was indeed involved in this mishap. All that is publically known is that a worst case presumption of flutter was stated as a rationale to ground the (UK) fleet. I'd personally like to know if the physical evidence is strongly suggestive, or simply possible of a link to flutter. Were there close by witnesses, were the tailplanes 500 feet behind the rest of the airframe? Is a metallurgical analysis of the torque tube being done? The mention of flutter has brought a whole lot of comment, including many suggestions to repair components which are not yet know to be responsible. It would certainly be nice if Andy, or someone from E04 could elucidate the situation instead of having all of us wait in the dark for 12 months. Ira -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120522#120522 09:43 09:43


    Message 27


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    Time: 10:48:49 AM PST US
    From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
    Subject: Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
    This is a hit in my mind also! I hated the idea and removed those ugly dicks from my trailer to avoid any temptation to even consider to transport tailplanes in them. They feel good in my car=B4s trunk (isolated by white styro foam). Raimo Another cause of the sleeves disbonding is transporting the tailplanes on the Europa trailer. This places a direct strain on the TP6 sleeve, much more that caused by flying or taxying over "rough ground". Carl Pattinson G-LABS


    Message 28


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    Time: 11:37:20 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type
    From: "rampil" <ira.rampil@gmail.com>
    Hi Brian, Thank you for the clarification. It had been my understanding that all UK Europas were grounded until offical inspection and that the majority of those aircraft inspected actually failed inspection from the comments posted here. Is there anything that can be made public about the nature of the evidence for stabilator oscillation to destructive failure? Regards, Ira -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120562#120562


    Message 29


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    Time: 11:53:01 AM PST US
    From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Tailplane Retention
    Nice idea, but fundamentally doesn't provide connection of the TP skin to the outer pip pin hole (which I understand the PFA are looking for) in the event that the outer bush becomes disbonded and grossly loose. . Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 10:51 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention > > Roger > > Thanks this is GREAT. What we all want is this sort of thinking, > outside the box. Please do not apologise for any failings others might > spot. This may be the seed of the idea that saves us all a lot of > problems. > > Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear > Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) > e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk > or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com > > >


    Message 30


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    Time: 12:30:17 PM PST US
    From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: trigear vs. mono
    Hello John, I think there is a lot of truth in what you are hinting at. Us trigear jockeys are having to pay dearly for shortcomings in the mono. I always wondered if that mod 70 was based on a semi crash landing in a mono. All my fittings are dead tight and hope they stay that way. Wasn't William's mono involved also in a gear up landing ? As you say, the statistics about slop, that has developed over time, would be very useful to know. As a side issue I am again questioning the wisdom of mod 71 with the steel springs. My Europa has turned into a bucking bronco on local grass strips, and if I didn't take a firm grip on the control column, that mass balance arm would be flying all over the place. Karl >From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Europa-List: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 09:18:07 EDT > >Greetings team, > >As I read through the various theories of why the pin holes elongate I'm >left with a question that nobody seems to be asking (or maybe somebody did >ask >and I missed it). > >This is a little out of my area of expertise, but it seems rational to me >that either a mono or a conventional gear Europa, i.e., one with a >tailwheel, >would transfer significantly more stress loads to the components in the >rear >of the aircraft, thus leading to more wear on everything back there. By >contrast, the trigear would dampen those stress loads by virtue of the main >gear >being a considerable distance from the parts in question, thus damping any >forces transferred to the tail area. Stresses transferred by a trigear >would >further be damped by the spring action of the main gear legs and the tires >(tyres). > >Has anyone ever correlated pin wear to landing gear type? Are there more >mono's and conventional gear Europa's showing pin wear and or hole >elongation >than trigears? > >In my case, N245E, a trigear, now has a bit over 100 hours TT. About 90% >of >the take offs and landings thus far have been made from my grass strip and >my >pip pins are still tight as a tick. I have observed no increased play in >the >tailplanes and only a slight amount of play in the trim tabs and that >hasn't >changed since day one. I've also looked closely at all the hardware in the >tail and I cannot detect any wear on any components whatsoever. I know >this is >anecdotal at best, but it seams reasonable for those in the know to >correla >te pin wear to landing gear type as they chase down the root cause of the >wear >that caused the tailplane flutter. > >Regards, > >John Lawton >Whitwell, TN (TN89) >N245E - Flying > > >************************************** See what's free at >http://www.aol.com. _________________________________________________________________ Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/


    Message 31


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    Time: 12:51:59 PM PST US
    From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: Tailplane flutter
    Hi Nigel Yes, thank you for the additional detail. Bt you still don't say HOW the TP4 is to be cleaned out. And you say that the mass balance arm has to be disconnected. That means having to crawl into the tail section and performing all kinds of difficult tasks. My balance arm is very tight and that was easy to do with the top off. I don't really want to touch it. I am also not rushing into mod 70. And as Mark and others have remarked: we don't really know anything about the accident. Except, that a wing landed on the road, the main fuselage in a field, that at least one tailplane came off initially, and a pip pin was bent 90 degrees. Obviously something started the chain of events from the tail somewhere. There may or may not have been any flutter. I guess we'll find out a bit more in a week or so. I like the idea of doing away with the mass balance arm, and weighting the tailplanes internally, at least for new kits. Karl >From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btconnect.com> >To: <europa-list@matronics.com> >Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:59:25 +0100 > ><nigel_graham@btconnect.com> > >Hi Karl, > >You're clearly thinking this through! > >My description was only an abstract to give an idea of the concept. >The detailed proposals handle preparation insertion and bonding. > >Here is a description for those of you with an enquiring mind - I will not >take offence if the rest of you skip this! > >TP4 has to be de-greased and de-burred inside prior to insertion. The discs >have a scribe line on one side to indicate the orientation of the cross >drill (facilitating alignment). You were on the money with regard to the >insertion tool. A 6.0mm threaded bar (with two lock nuts) screws into a >central hole in the disc. This allows the discs to be inserted into TP4 and >rotated into correct alignment - two from one side and two from the other. > >The discs have a shallow groove centrally around the circumference. Once in >position, bearing grade anaerobic adhesive (Loctite) is introduced through >one of the TP4 holes and the discs rotated to distribute the adhesive. This >ensures concentricity and accommodates any small variance of inside >diameter. >An AN4 bolt can be temporally inserted to locate the disc in the correct >position and the thread bar removed. In this way, all four discs are placed >and bonded. The 6mm holes also serve to cross vent the tube and provide a >method (via spray tube) of introducing the anti-corrosion treatment of your >choice (ACF50, WD40, Shell "Ensis" fluid, granny's beef dripping) into TP4. > >Once bonded, the tail can be re-assembled. The bolts have to be inserted >from the rear to guarantee clearance with the rear bulkhead. This will >involve rotating the TP4 assy up through 90 degrees to allow the bolts to >be >inserted from underneath. (The counter balance arm needs to be removed >first). It does have the advantage that the castellated nuts and split pins >can be inserted from the front of TP4 and not tucked behind as in the TP14 >assembly instructions. > >Hope this answers some of you (good) questions. > >Nigel (The other one) > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl >Sent: 25 June 2007 12:30 >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter > > > > >Hi Nigel, > >My main concern with this mod would be the insertion of the (predrilled) >15mm discs into a tube with anti-corrosion paint on the inside. Would there >be a suitable reamer to get it absolutely smooth, also to remove any burr >from the enlarged holes. Then how do you aim to position the discs so that >all the holes line up ? Maybe a threaded hole in the centre for attaching a >long rod temporarily just for the lineup ? > >Karl > > > >From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btconnect.com> > >To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > >Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter > >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:29:20 +0100 > > > ><nigel_graham@btconnect.com> > > > >Hi Graham, > > > >FYI - I am working with Ian Rickard at the moment to document exactly >what > >I > >did and present this to the PFA. > > > >To enlighten those of you not familiar with this mod: > >A long time ago I identified the inherent shortfall with the TP14 method >of > >securing the drive arms to the torque tube. Merely replacing these pins > >with > >oversized pins would not in my opinion, cure the problem - only delay the > >next re-occurrence once play developed. > > > >I developed a simple arrangement (KISS technology) that positively clamps > >the drive arms (TP9 and TP12) onto the torque tube by replacing all four > >TP14 pins with 1/4" x 2.125" AN bolts. > >To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide > >cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four stations. > >To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle blocks" > >(profiled > >to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head and > >castellated nut. > > > >The beauty of clamping is that it introduces a torque damper into the >drive > >system - eliminating the shock "chattering" that wears the standard TP14 > >pins and elongates the holes - and it can be retrofitted to tubes with >worn > >holes. > > > >Nigel (The other one) Graham > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham > >Singleton > >Sent: 25 June 2007 00:25 > >To: europa-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter > > > > > ><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> > > > >Carl > >The torque tube is chrome plated 4130 I believe, stainless isn't strong > >enough. > >You may have spotted the weakest link in the chain, if the TP9 & 12 had > >more bearing area the slop problem might go away. Wouldn't be much > >weight penalty either. > >OTH clamp bolting as Nigel Graham did years ago might be the best answer. > >Graham > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. >https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/ > > _________________________________________________________________ Win tickets to the sold out Live Earth concert! http://liveearth.uk.msn.com


    Message 32


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    Time: 01:05:34 PM PST US
    From: "Ralph K. Hallett III" <n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Battery switch
    Terry, Thanks for the posting, I copied your idea and it looks to work just great. Got my switch at a speed shop here in Reno. Ralph RKHallett III xs mg with more parts in close formation Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote: > > Hi Ferg, > > We installed a mechanical contactor in the passenger side head rest, as > shown in the following link, look under the 'Battery master switch' > link; > > http://terryseaver.home.comcast.net/N135TD_mods.htm > > Regards, > Terry Seaver > A135 / N135TD > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 6:05 PM > To: 1AeroElectricLIST > Subject: Europa-List: Battery switch > > > Cheers, > I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches > for battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 > amps dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor. > If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short > description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a > useful source. US or UK no problem. > Thanks, > Ferg > Europa Classic 914 mono > > >


    Message 33


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    Time: 01:40:51 PM PST US
    From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Article on flutter, now attached
    So, does the Liberty use the same system as the Europa? Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Harrison" <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Article on flutter, now attached > Dear All > > Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us > distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF > and may be easier to read if you print it. > > The link to their website incidentally is: www.flyer.co.uk > > Willie Harrison > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier"> > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List</a> > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a> > > </b></font></pre>


    Message 34


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    Time: 02:09:44 PM PST US
    From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Article on flutter, now attached
    Not forgetting that I=mr2, counterbalance weights in the tailplane leadng edge, apart from being much heavier would have much less inertia, offering a lower amount of resistance to flutter and/or its initiation. Duncan Mcf. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gilles Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 5:09 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Article on flutter, now attached > <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> > > William Harrison a crit : >> Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us >> distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF and >> may be easier to read if you print it. > > William and all, > > Thanks for this very knowledgeable article. > By the way, balancing control surfaces directly instead of using a bob > weight on a balance arm is considered safer when practicable, especially > if the weight is evenly distributed spanwise. > I'm aware of at least two aerobatics airplanes that went down due to > aileron balance arm attachment failure followed by explosive flutter. In > one case the crew was able to bail out. > > Has anyone mentioned balancing each tailplane directly with lead in the > leading edge? This would eliminate any possible slop on the balance arm > attachment points and reduce wear an tear on the torque tube. > > FWIW, > Best regards, > -- > Gilles, > http://contrails.free.fr > > >


    Message 35


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    Time: 02:25:53 PM PST US
    From: Jeff B <topglock@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Article on flutter, now attached
    It would be interesting to know just how much lead would be needed to balance the tailplanes in this way... Jeff - Baby Blue 299 hours Gilles Thesee wrote: > <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> > > William Harrison a crit : >> Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us >> distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF >> and may be easier to read if you print it. > > William and all, > > Thanks for this very knowledgeable article. > By the way, balancing control surfaces directly instead of using a bob > weight on a balance arm is considered safer when practicable, > especially if the weight is evenly distributed spanwise. > I'm aware of at least two aerobatics airplanes that went down due to > aileron balance arm attachment failure followed by explosive flutter. > In one case the crew was able to bail out. > > Has anyone mentioned balancing each tailplane directly with lead in > the leading edge? This would eliminate any possible slop on the > balance arm attachment points and reduce wear an tear on the torque tube. > > FWIW, > Best regards,


    Message 36


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    Time: 02:33:36 PM PST US
    From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type
    Nothing concrete yet, Ira. We will just have to wait a few more days to hear what the AAIB have found. Brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil Sent: 25 June 2007 19:36 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type Hi Brian, Thank you for the clarification. It had been my understanding that all UK Europas were grounded until offical inspection and that the majority of those aircraft inspected actually failed inspection from the comments posted here. Is there anything that can be made public about the nature of the evidence for stabilator oscillation to destructive failure? Regards, Ira -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120562#120562 09:43 09:43


    Message 37


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    Time: 02:37:42 PM PST US
    From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
    Subject: Re: Article on flutter, now attached
    Duncan & Ami McFadyean a crit : > <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> > > Not forgetting that I=mr2, counterbalance weights in the tailplane > leadng edge, apart from being much heavier would have much less > inertia, offering a lower amount of resistance to flutter and/or its > initiation. Duncan, The leading edge balance weight is something widespread in aviation. Concerning weight, some messages seem to state that some Europas do carry weight in the tail. Defeating flutter necessitates a complex study, but mass balancing has something to do with the POSITION of the CG of the control surface. It is considered that one should aim at a forward or at least neutral CG position with regard to the control hinge. A lightweight construction aft of the hinge point is key, and painting and hardware are best carefully studied to avoid adding weight aft of the hinge. The problem with mass balance arms (which are also used), is localized wear and tear allowing slop to develop. Any slop encourages flutter. Of course flutter also has to do with torsional and flexural(?) properties of the structure. Darrol Stinton's Design of the aeroplane could be a good starting point for further insight. FWIW, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr


    Message 38


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    Time: 03:37:17 PM PST US
    From: "Richard Iddon" <riddon@sent.com>
    Subject: tailplane balance
    At the expense of showing my ignorance, why is the tailplane balanced as it is? i.e. with the pivot point well forward of the c of g which necessitates a balancing weight. Could it not have been designed with the pivot point at the position of the c of g so no weight would be needed? Richard Iddon G-RIXS -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff B Sent: 25 June 2007 22:25 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Article on flutter, now attached It would be interesting to know just how much lead would be needed to balance the tailplanes in this way... 24/06/2007 08:33


    Message 39


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    Time: 03:42:47 PM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Tailplane flutter
    Remi the clamp solution was Nigel Graham's not mine, but I do like it. I'm pleased your solution works too, my reservations about taper pins are about the risk of distorting the cross tube and causing binding in the bearings regards Graham Rmi Guerner wrote: > Hi Graham, > > > > Sorry I missed your clamp solution. Anyway, I went the taper pin way. > Easy to do and very effective. > > Remi > > > > > From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk > <mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>> > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter > > Hi! Remi > You forgot my torque tube clamps as a permanent fix for no slop ever. > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > Robt.C.Harrison > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > <mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > <mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of R=E9mi > Guerner > Sent: 24 June 2007 09:56 > Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter > > Hi all, > > The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means that, in > a more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not balanced at all. > This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider that any play in the > chain between the mass balance arm and the tailplanes is unacceptable: > that means zero play between TP4 and TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and > TP12. The factory solution is Mod 62: replacement of the =BC=94 pins by > 3/8=94 > pins. This mod is known to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As > far as I know, there are 3 solutions which have been implemented > successfully by builders: > - gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4 > - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper pins > - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts > As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all these > solutions have their own inconveniences and must be implemented > carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are far outweighed by the > safety of a fully balanced tailplane in all conditions. > Regards > > Remi Guerner > F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005


    Message 40


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    Time: 03:49:05 PM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Tailplane flutter
    Don't think so Willie but I could be mistaken, only downside I can think of is a slight weight penalty. Graham William Harrison wrote: > <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk> > > Nigel, > > Would there be any problem with doing this with 3/8 bolts on an > aircraft which had Mod 62 already done to it? > > This is such an appealing idea I think. > > Willie >


    Message 41


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    Time: 03:58:01 PM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type
    John you are probably right, or lucky, or both. Graham TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote: it seems rational to me that either a mono or a conventional gear Europa, i.e., one with a > tailwheel, would transfer significantly more stress loads to the > components in the rear of the aircraft, thus leading to more wear on > everything back there. By contrast, the trigear would dampen those > stress loads by virtue of the main gear being a considerable distance > from the parts in question, thus damping any forces transferred to the > tail area. Stresses transferred by a trigear would further be damped by > the spring action of the main gear legs and the tires (tyres). > > John Lawton > Whitwell, TN (TN89) > N245E - Flying >


    Message 42


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    Time: 04:13:52 PM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: tailplane balance
    That's for aerodynamic reasons, in the early days the pivot was moved about a bit to avoid "short period oscillation" and the present position was perhaps the best compromise. The pivot needs to be in front of the centre of pressure, which can move about a bit. Symetrical sections tend not to have moving Cp but maybe it does move a bit. Graham Richard Iddon wrote: > > At the expense of showing my ignorance, why is the tailplane balanced as > it is? i.e. with the pivot point well forward of the c of g which > necessitates a balancing weight. Could it not have been designed with > the pivot point at the position of the c of g so no weight would be > needed? > > Richard Iddon G-RIXS


    Message 43


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    Time: 08:21:20 PM PST US
    From: Bill and Sue <bill.sue@orcon.net.nz>
    Subject: Re: Tailplane Retention
    I am visiting the UK, staying in London for 4 weeks from 28th this month. Am planning to attend the PFA Weekend at Popham 7/8th July. Will there be any Europa builder/flyers there to chat to and which is the best day to attend. Regards Sue & Bill Mono XS 914 / Airmaster 580Hrs


    Message 44


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    Time: 08:59:39 PM PST US
    Subject: Tailplane flutter
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Nigel...very sweet (KISS) solution...one question: Why castellated nuts rather than nylocs? Also.. What material(s) did you use for your "discs" and "saddles"? Fred On Monday, June 25, 2007, at 03:29 AM, Nigel Graham wrote: > To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide > cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four stations. > To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle blocks" > (profiled > to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head and > castellated nut. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.


    Message 45


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    Time: 09:20:36 PM PST US
    From: DuaneFamly@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Article on flutter, now attached
    Thoughts and questions for those that know, I have been reading with great interest.....and concern......this flutter thread. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the flutter the result of the total slop anywhere in between the mass balance weight and the tailplane? The more slop the more up and down travel distance the tailplane will be able to move. I doubt if the mass balance weight is fluttering during this event. Now if the weight was an integral part of the tailplane, then one could not flutter without the other. And since the weight would be further back, the fuselage CofG could be maintained with less total weight. Question: Does the frequency of the flutter of a particular plane increase and decrease with a change of airspeed? What is the failure mechanism caused by flutter? Does the part that flutters destroy itself? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.




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