Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:08 AM - Tailplane flutter (=?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?=)
2. 01:09 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (R.C.Harrison)
3. 01:28 AM - Bob Harrison's Torque Tube Clamp Mod (John Cliff)
4. 02:16 AM - TP12 (Klaus Dietrich)
5. 02:52 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (G-IANI)
6. 03:13 AM - Article on flutter (William Harrison)
7. 03:16 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (Hans Siedsma)
8. 03:42 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Nigel Graham)
9. 03:47 AM - Re: TP12 (R.C.Harrison)
10. 03:48 AM - Re : TP12 (NEEL Jean Philippe)
11. 04:06 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Graham Singleton)
12. 04:08 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (William Harrison)
13. 04:30 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Karl Heindl)
14. 04:52 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Nigel Graham)
15. 06:01 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Nigel Graham)
16. 06:18 AM - Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
17. 06:44 AM - Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (Mark Burton)
18. 07:25 AM - Re: Article on flutter, now attached (William Harrison)
19. 08:21 AM - Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (RobNeils)
20. 08:43 AM - Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (rampil)
21. 08:51 AM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Brian Davies)
22. 08:57 AM - Re: Wikipedia's entry on flutter (R.C.Harrison)
23. 09:11 AM - Re: Article on flutter, now attached (Gilles Thesee)
24. 09:32 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (William Daniell)
25. 10:13 AM - Re: Battery switch (Terry Seaver (terrys))
26. 10:43 AM - Re: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (Brian Davies)
27. 10:48 AM - Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Raimo Toivio)
28. 11:37 AM - Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (rampil)
29. 11:53 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
30. 12:30 PM - Re: trigear vs. mono (Karl Heindl)
31. 12:51 PM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Karl Heindl)
32. 01:05 PM - Re: Battery switch (Ralph K. Hallett III)
33. 01:40 PM - Re: Article on flutter, now attached (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
34. 02:09 PM - Re: Article on flutter, now attached (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
35. 02:25 PM - Re: Article on flutter, now attached (Jeff B)
36. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (Brian Davies)
37. 02:37 PM - Re: Article on flutter, now attached (Gilles Thesee)
38. 03:37 PM - tailplane balance (Richard Iddon)
39. 03:42 PM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Graham Singleton)
40. 03:49 PM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Graham Singleton)
41. 03:58 PM - Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (Graham Singleton)
42. 04:13 PM - Re: tailplane balance (Graham Singleton)
43. 08:21 PM - Re: Tailplane Retention (Bill and Sue)
44. 08:59 PM - Tailplane flutter (Fred Klein)
45. 09:20 PM - Re: Article on flutter, now attached (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Hi Graham,
Sorry I missed your clamp solution. Anyway, I went the taper pin way. Easy to do
and very effective.
Remi
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
Hi! Remi
You forgot my torque tube clamps as a permanent fix for no slop ever.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R=E9mi
Guerner
Sent: 24 June 2007 09:56
Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
Hi all,
The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means that, in
a more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not balanced at all.
This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider that any play in the
chain between the mass balance arm and the tailplanes is unacceptable:
that means zero play between TP4 and TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and
TP12. The factory solution is Mod 62: replacement of the =BC=94 pins by
3/8=94
pins. This mod is known to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As
far as I know, there are 3 solutions which have been implemented
successfully by builders:
- gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4
- replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper pins
- replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts
As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all these
solutions have their own inconveniences and must be implemented
carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are far outweighed by the
safety of a fully balanced tailplane in all conditions.
Regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours
Message 2
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| Subject: | Tailplane Retention |
Hi! Roger
I think the concept is an excellent one but.......(NOT BEING NEGATIVE)
a) I would prefer not to invade the existing drive plate and I don't
like sharp filed corners in "canware fabrications". I'd think that the
locator plate could be "fashioned" to engage behind the welded pin
without any filing of the drive plates.
b) I would prefer to have two such retainers on each tail plane fore and
aft of the drive plates. Both similarly "fashioned" as a) above.
c) I could imagine a temporary rigging prop tool to drop between the two
(as in (b) above) upstandings on the surface of the tail planes to
assist one man rigging to be removed prior to engaging the pip pins.
IMHO my clamps take care of the inboard problems, your concept as above
takes care of the outboard problems, this then only leaves the central
horn possibility!
But of course we mere mortals aren't yet privy to all that we are
looking to solve. To enable innovative ideas to be contributed it would
be more helpful for us to "see the horse before we start mending the
cart"!
Hopefully you have copied Ian Rickard in on this concept in time prior
to decisions being made about massive tailplane invasion.?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger
Sheridan
Sent: 25 June 2007 07:53
Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention
>
> Dear Forum/PFA/Europa,
>
> This mod has not been approved or tested and the photos are only of
> a trial installation so please don't bother with too much negative
> feedback - it wasn't even my idea originally!
>
> It does fit the tailplanes securely with no load transferred to the
> internal bushes.
>
> I'm not proposing an alternative system, it's just an idea for
> consideration by those who are reviewing the design of our
> tailplane retention system.
>
> Brgds,
>
> Roger
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Bob Harrison's Torque Tube Clamp Mod |
> Hi Bob
>Where can I access details of your clamp design?
Try http://www.crix.org.uk and follow link to Bob Harrison's Europa, then
Stabilator Mod
(but ignore links to my old email address !)
John Cliff
Message 4
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in 1999 I glued my TP12 on to the TP4 torque tube using Loctite 603,
because I had some play (less than 1/2"); today and some 700 hours later
I can report that this fix proved itself as I have 0 play!
Klaus
(MkI, OE-CKD)
*Date: * */Feb 21, 1999/*
*From: * */Klaus Dietrich <101613.3377(at)compuserve.com>/*
*Subject: * /*Re: TP6's
</searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=9323947?KEYS=loctite?LISTNAME=Europa?HITNUMBER=93?SERIAL=01571730176?SHOWBUTTONS=NO>*/
*I finaly decided to repair my play in the TP 12 by glueing it to
the TP 4 torque tube. I used Loctite 603 (for lightly oil
contaminated parts, shear strength 3.700 psi) which I applied on the
torque tube on the 10 mm inbord of TP 12. I did this only after
careful in-situ testing how to soften the glue again in case of
disassembling without heating the aircraft structure or softening
the Redux holding the TP 11 bushes. In case you are going this
route, here is the way to go: take a halogen bulb of 150W (size: 75
mm long) which will be centrally mounted between two discs (made of
some scrap of the firewall material) with a diameter of 34mm. The
discs are hold together by two threaded wire rods (2mm diameter)
each with a nut on both ends. For the electrical contacts I
disassembled the halogene spot (cost Euro 5,--) and used the small
metall contacts which I mounted centrally to the discs. The electric
cables which are crimped on the contacts are running on each side of
the assembly. The complete assembly is than slided into the torque
tube and placed exactly under the TP 12 well inboard of the TP 11
bushes, where the glue is. One cable will go to the left and one to
the right end of the tube. When you switch on the light, very
concentrated heat will be emitted by the bulb which heats the tube
from the inside on a length of not more than 70 mm. The Loctite
needs about 150=B0C to soften completely. This temperature will be
reached easily after 2 to 2,5 minutes. You can than slide the TP 12
out again and swich off the heat. The "firewall discs" help to
concentrate the heat and the TP 11 bushes don't get any more than
"handwarm" (not more than 40=B0C). Thanks to Jim N. for this idea!
It works perfectly. For those who are still building, make shure you
are using anchor nuts to fix the servo motor and the trim assembly
below as well as shackles or turnbuckles for the safety cables which
are holding the counterwight......this will asure you an easy
disassembly of all the "mechanics" in the back of the fuselage;
something which inevitably will happen sooner or later.....
Obviousely you'll need also an access panel at this very strategic
place.....You may also file the heads of the pins square to be able
to turn them with a spanner to position the hole of the split pin.
Have fun...it's just a 10 minutes fix (I'm Ivan's disciple....) Klaus *
--
Klaus Dietrich
Oracle Financing EMEA
Tel/Fax: +43 1 33 777 825
http://www.oracle.com/financing
Message 5
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| Subject: | Tailplane Retention |
Roger
Thanks this is GREAT. What we all want is this sort of thinking,
outside the box. Please do not apologise for any failings others might
spot. This may be the seed of the idea that saves us all a lot of
problems.
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Article on flutter |
Dear All
There was an enlightening article on flutter in June's edition of
Flyer Magazine.I was unable to get a legible scan of it to attach to
this but I have asked the editor if they can give me an electronic
file of the article so it can be distributed on this forum. In the
meantime, you might like to search out a copy of the magazine (I
stole mine from the dentist's waiting room this morning...). The
article echoed many of the issues we have discussed (slop, mass
balance, etc) but also makes some other interesting points, including
the behaviour and consequences of disconnected trim tabs.
By the way, on the subject of Loctite, presumably any benefit it
could offer would depend on where the TP12 is in its freeplay range
when the Loctite sets. If the slop is already bad enough that the pip
pin is sharing the torsional loads and the TP12 is Loctited at one
extreme of its range of movement then would that not continue to
stress the TP6 bond?
Willie
Message 7
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| Subject: | Tailplane Retention |
Perhaps it is stupid but I think about the following solution. Pre- load
the TP12 pin. Easy to do without taken the tail system in part. Drill a hole
just behind the TP 12 ( Perhaps only 4 mm ) Take a piece of spring metal.
Through the hole and than bench it around under load. I have no idea what
the pre-load have to be to avoid any movement on the pins. The spring can
be heavy due to the fact you can use a long piece and cut after assembly or
make a special tool.
My tail has already 6.5 mm play on the trailing edge and my plane did not
fly one meter. It has no play on the TP9. My holes are drilled at a special
workshop. It all look perfect but ....
Perhaps this is not a solution for the aviation...
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Namens G-IANI
Verzonden: maandag 25 juni 2007 11:52
Aan: europa-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention
Roger
Thanks this is GREAT. What we all want is this sort of thinking,
outside the box. Please do not apologise for any failings others might
spot. This may be the seed of the idea that saves us all a lot of
problems.
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Hi Graham,
FYI - I am working with Ian Rickard at the moment to document exactly what I
did and present this to the PFA.
To enlighten those of you not familiar with this mod:
A long time ago I identified the inherent shortfall with the TP14 method of
securing the drive arms to the torque tube. Merely replacing these pins with
oversized pins would not in my opinion, cure the problem - only delay the
next re-occurrence once play developed.
I developed a simple arrangement (KISS technology) that positively clamps
the drive arms (TP9 and TP12) onto the torque tube by replacing all four
TP14 pins with 1/4" x 2.125" AN bolts.
To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide
cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four stations.
To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle blocks" (profiled
to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head and
castellated nut.
The beauty of clamping is that it introduces a torque damper into the drive
system - eliminating the shock "chattering" that wears the standard TP14
pins and elongates the holes - and it can be retrofitted to tubes with worn
holes.
Nigel (The other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: 25 June 2007 00:25
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Carl
The torque tube is chrome plated 4130 I believe, stainless isn't strong
enough.
You may have spotted the weakest link in the chain, if the TP9 & 12 had
more bearing area the slop problem might go away. Wouldn't be much
weight penalty either.
OTH clamp bolting as Nigel Graham did years ago might be the best answer.
Graham
Message 9
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Hi! Klaus
I appreciate your posting, however how can you be sure that the loctite
penetrated on both sides equally and how can you calculate when the bond
may fail?
My torque tube is nickel plated and there is evidence of the nickel
breaking away .just could take your bond away ?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Klaus
Dietrich
Sent: 25 June 2007 10:15
Subject: Europa-List: TP12
in 1999 I glued my TP12 on to the TP4 torque tube using Loctite 603,
because I had some play (less than 1/2"); today and some 700 hours later
I can report that this fix proved itself as I have 0 play!
Klaus
Message 10
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Merci Klaus=0AIl y a des hommes d'avant garde qui trouvent tout de suite la
bonne solution !=0AAs tu ecris quelque chose sur la methode pour realiser
ce collage=0AAmiti=E9s =0AJP =0A=0A=0A----- Message d'origine ----=0ADe :
Klaus Dietrich <klaus.dietrich@oracle.com>=0A=C0 : Europa-List Digest Serve
r <europa-list@matronics.com>=0AEnvoy=E9 le : Lundi, 25 Juin 2007, 11h15mn
01s=0AObjet : Europa-List: TP12=0A=0Ain 1999 I glued my TP12 on to the TP4
torque tube using Loctite 603, because I had some play (less than 1/2"); to
day and some 700 hours later I can report that this fix proved itself as I
have 0 play!=0AKlaus =0A(MkI, OE-CKD)=0A=0ADate: Feb 21, 1999=0AFrom: Klaus
Dietrich <101613.3377(at)compuserve.com>=0ASubject: Re: TP6's=0A=0AI final
y decided to repair my play in the TP 12 by glueing it to the TP 4 torque t
ube. I used Loctite 603 (for lightly oil contaminated parts, shear strength
3.700 psi) which I applied on the torque tube on the 10 mm inbord of TP 12
. I did this only after careful in-situ testing how to soften the glue agai
n in case of disassembling without heating the aircraft structure or soften
ing the Redux holding the TP 11 bushes. In case you are going this route, h
ere is the way to go: take a halogen bulb of 150W (size: 75 mm long) which
will be centrally mounted between two discs (made of some scrap of the fire
wall material) with a diameter of 34mm. The discs are hold together by two
threaded wire rods (2mm diameter) each with a nut on both ends. For the ele
ctrical contacts I disassembled the halogene spot (cost Euro 5,--) and used
the small metall contacts which I mounted centrally to the discs. The elec
tric cables which are crimped on the contacts are running on each side of t
he
assembly. The complete assembly is than slided into the torque tube and pl
aced exactly under the TP 12 well inboard of the TP 11 bushes, where the gl
ue is. One cable will go to the left and one to the right end of the tube.
When you switch on the light, very concentrated heat will be emitted by the
bulb which heats the tube from the inside on a length of not more than 70
mm. The Loctite needs about 150=B0C to soften completely. This temperatur
e will be reached easily after 2 to 2,5 minutes. You can than slide the TP
12 out again and swich off the heat. The "firewall discs" help to concentra
te the heat and the TP 11 bushes don't get any more than "handwarm" (not mo
re than 40=B0C). Thanks to Jim N. for this idea! It works perfectly. For
those who are still building, make shure you are using anchor nuts to fix t
he servo motor and the trim assembly below as well as shackles or turnbuckl
es for the safety cables which are holding the counterwight......this will
asure you an easy
disassembly of all the "mechanics" in the back of the fuselage; something
which inevitably will happen sooner or later..... Obviousely you'll need al
so an access panel at this very strategic place.....You may also file the h
eads of the pins square to be able to turn them with a spanner to position
the hole of the split pin. Have fun...it's just a 10 minutes fix (I'm Ivan'
s disciple....) Klaus =0A-- =0A=0AKlaus Dietrich =0AOracle Financing EMEA
=0ATel/Fax: +43 1 33 777 825=0Ahttp://www.oracle.com/financing=0A=0A=0A=0A
=====0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________
_____________________________ =0ANe gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail !
Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
Nigel
Hi! sorry to hear about your motor bike incident, get better soon.
Your mod is probably the neatest one and good engineering practice. I
will be surprised if PFA don't like it, not invented here syndrome seems
unlikely in this case. {{;-)
Graham
Nigel Graham wrote:
>
> Hi Graham,
>
> FYI - I am working with Ian Rickard at the moment to document exactly what I
> did and present this to the PFA.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
Nigel,
Would there be any problem with doing this with 3/8 bolts on an
aircraft which had Mod 62 already done to it?
This is such an appealing idea I think.
Willie
On 25 Jun 2007, at 11:29, Nigel Graham wrote:
> <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
>
> Hi Graham,
>
> FYI - I am working with Ian Rickard at the moment to document
> exactly what I
> did and present this to the PFA.
>
> To enlighten those of you not familiar with this mod:
> A long time ago I identified the inherent shortfall with the TP14
> method of
> securing the drive arms to the torque tube. Merely replacing these
> pins with
> oversized pins would not in my opinion, cure the problem - only
> delay the
> next re-occurrence once play developed.
>
> I developed a simple arrangement (KISS technology) that positively
> clamps
> the drive arms (TP9 and TP12) onto the torque tube by replacing all
> four
> TP14 pins with 1/4" x 2.125" AN bolts.
> To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide
> cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four
> stations.
> To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle
> blocks" (profiled
> to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head
> and
> castellated nut.
>
> The beauty of clamping is that it introduces a torque damper into
> the drive
> system - eliminating the shock "chattering" that wears the standard
> TP14
> pins and elongates the holes - and it can be retrofitted to tubes
> with worn
> holes.
>
> Nigel (The other one) Graham
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham
> Singleton
> Sent: 25 June 2007 00:25
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
>
>
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> Carl
> The torque tube is chrome plated 4130 I believe, stainless isn't
> strong
> enough.
> You may have spotted the weakest link in the chain, if the TP9 & 12
> had
> more bearing area the slop problem might go away. Wouldn't be much
> weight penalty either.
> OTH clamp bolting as Nigel Graham did years ago might be the best
> answer.
> Graham
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Hi Nigel,
My main concern with this mod would be the insertion of the (predrilled)
15mm discs into a tube with anti-corrosion paint on the inside. Would there
be a suitable reamer to get it absolutely smooth, also to remove any burr
from the enlarged holes. Then how do you aim to position the discs so that
all the holes line up ? Maybe a threaded hole in the centre for attaching a
long rod temporarily just for the lineup ?
Karl
>From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
>Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:29:20 +0100
>
><nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
>
>Hi Graham,
>
>FYI - I am working with Ian Rickard at the moment to document exactly what
>I
>did and present this to the PFA.
>
>To enlighten those of you not familiar with this mod:
>A long time ago I identified the inherent shortfall with the TP14 method of
>securing the drive arms to the torque tube. Merely replacing these pins
>with
>oversized pins would not in my opinion, cure the problem - only delay the
>next re-occurrence once play developed.
>
>I developed a simple arrangement (KISS technology) that positively clamps
>the drive arms (TP9 and TP12) onto the torque tube by replacing all four
>TP14 pins with 1/4" x 2.125" AN bolts.
>To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide
>cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four stations.
>To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle blocks"
>(profiled
>to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head and
>castellated nut.
>
>The beauty of clamping is that it introduces a torque damper into the drive
>system - eliminating the shock "chattering" that wears the standard TP14
>pins and elongates the holes - and it can be retrofitted to tubes with worn
>holes.
>
>Nigel (The other one) Graham
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham
>Singleton
>Sent: 25 June 2007 00:25
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
>
>
><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
>Carl
>The torque tube is chrome plated 4130 I believe, stainless isn't strong
>enough.
>You may have spotted the weakest link in the chain, if the TP9 & 12 had
>more bearing area the slop problem might go away. Wouldn't be much
>weight penalty either.
>OTH clamp bolting as Nigel Graham did years ago might be the best answer.
>Graham
>
>
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Willie,
I can think of no reason why not.
The only point you need to check is the bolt head to rear bulkhead
clearance. The circumference of the TP9 and TP12 is only about 16mm away
from this bulkhead - so the total assembly thickness is a limiting factor
and I'm not sure how deep a 3/8" bolt head is.
If this did prove to be a problem, small 1/4" to 3/8" step-down spigots
would solve the problem and allow you to use 1/4" bolts.
Nigel (The other one)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of William
Harrison
Sent: 25 June 2007 12:09
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
<willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
Nigel,
Would there be any problem with doing this with 3/8 bolts on an
aircraft which had Mod 62 already done to it?
This is such an appealing idea I think.
Willie
On 25 Jun 2007, at 11:29, Nigel Graham wrote:
> <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
>
> Hi Graham,
>
> FYI - I am working with Ian Rickard at the moment to document
> exactly what I
> did and present this to the PFA.
>
> To enlighten those of you not familiar with this mod:
> A long time ago I identified the inherent shortfall with the TP14
> method of
> securing the drive arms to the torque tube. Merely replacing these
> pins with
> oversized pins would not in my opinion, cure the problem - only
> delay the
> next re-occurrence once play developed.
>
> I developed a simple arrangement (KISS technology) that positively
> clamps
> the drive arms (TP9 and TP12) onto the torque tube by replacing all
> four
> TP14 pins with 1/4" x 2.125" AN bolts.
> To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide
> cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four
> stations.
> To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle
> blocks" (profiled
> to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head
> and
> castellated nut.
>
> The beauty of clamping is that it introduces a torque damper into
> the drive
> system - eliminating the shock "chattering" that wears the standard
> TP14
> pins and elongates the holes - and it can be retrofitted to tubes
> with worn
> holes.
>
> Nigel (The other one) Graham
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Hi Karl,
You're clearly thinking this through!
My description was only an abstract to give an idea of the concept.
The detailed proposals handle preparation insertion and bonding.
Here is a description for those of you with an enquiring mind - I will not
take offence if the rest of you skip this!
TP4 has to be de-greased and de-burred inside prior to insertion. The discs
have a scribe line on one side to indicate the orientation of the cross
drill (facilitating alignment). You were on the money with regard to the
insertion tool. A 6.0mm threaded bar (with two lock nuts) screws into a
central hole in the disc. This allows the discs to be inserted into TP4 and
rotated into correct alignment - two from one side and two from the other.
The discs have a shallow groove centrally around the circumference. Once in
position, bearing grade anaerobic adhesive (Loctite) is introduced through
one of the TP4 holes and the discs rotated to distribute the adhesive. This
ensures concentricity and accommodates any small variance of inside
diameter.
An AN4 bolt can be temporally inserted to locate the disc in the correct
position and the thread bar removed. In this way, all four discs are placed
and bonded. The 6mm holes also serve to cross vent the tube and provide a
method (via spray tube) of introducing the anti-corrosion treatment of your
choice (ACF50, WD40, Shell "Ensis" fluid, granny's beef dripping) into TP4.
Once bonded, the tail can be re-assembled. The bolts have to be inserted
from the rear to guarantee clearance with the rear bulkhead. This will
involve rotating the TP4 assy up through 90 degrees to allow the bolts to be
inserted from underneath. (The counter balance arm needs to be removed
first). It does have the advantage that the castellated nuts and split pins
can be inserted from the front of TP4 and not tucked behind as in the TP14
assembly instructions.
Hope this answers some of you (good) questions.
Nigel (The other one)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: 25 June 2007 12:30
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
Hi Nigel,
My main concern with this mod would be the insertion of the (predrilled)
15mm discs into a tube with anti-corrosion paint on the inside. Would there
be a suitable reamer to get it absolutely smooth, also to remove any burr
from the enlarged holes. Then how do you aim to position the discs so that
all the holes line up ? Maybe a threaded hole in the centre for attaching a
long rod temporarily just for the lineup ?
Karl
>From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
>Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:29:20 +0100
>
><nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
>
>Hi Graham,
>
>FYI - I am working with Ian Rickard at the moment to document exactly what
>I
>did and present this to the PFA.
>
>To enlighten those of you not familiar with this mod:
>A long time ago I identified the inherent shortfall with the TP14 method of
>securing the drive arms to the torque tube. Merely replacing these pins
>with
>oversized pins would not in my opinion, cure the problem - only delay the
>next re-occurrence once play developed.
>
>I developed a simple arrangement (KISS technology) that positively clamps
>the drive arms (TP9 and TP12) onto the torque tube by replacing all four
>TP14 pins with 1/4" x 2.125" AN bolts.
>To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide
>cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four stations.
>To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle blocks"
>(profiled
>to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head and
>castellated nut.
>
>The beauty of clamping is that it introduces a torque damper into the drive
>system - eliminating the shock "chattering" that wears the standard TP14
>pins and elongates the holes - and it can be retrofitted to tubes with worn
>holes.
>
>Nigel (The other one) Graham
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham
>Singleton
>Sent: 25 June 2007 00:25
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
>
>
><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
>Carl
>The torque tube is chrome plated 4130 I believe, stainless isn't strong
>enough.
>You may have spotted the weakest link in the chain, if the TP9 & 12 had
>more bearing area the slop problem might go away. Wouldn't be much
>weight penalty either.
>OTH clamp bolting as Nigel Graham did years ago might be the best answer.
>Graham
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type |
Greetings team,
As I read through the various theories of why the pin holes elongate I'm
left with a question that nobody seems to be asking (or maybe somebody did ask
and I missed it).
This is a little out of my area of expertise, but it seems rational to me
that either a mono or a conventional gear Europa, i.e., one with a tailwheel,
would transfer significantly more stress loads to the components in the rear
of the aircraft, thus leading to more wear on everything back there. By
contrast, the trigear would dampen those stress loads by virtue of the main gear
being a considerable distance from the parts in question, thus damping any
forces transferred to the tail area. Stresses transferred by a trigear would
further be damped by the spring action of the main gear legs and the tires
(tyres).
Has anyone ever correlated pin wear to landing gear type? Are there more
mono's and conventional gear Europa's showing pin wear and or hole elongation
than trigears?
In my case, N245E, a trigear, now has a bit over 100 hours TT. About 90% of
the take offs and landings thus far have been made from my grass strip and my
pip pins are still tight as a tick. I have observed no increased play in the
tailplanes and only a slight amount of play in the trim tabs and that hasn't
changed since day one. I've also looked closely at all the hardware in the
tail and I cannot detect any wear on any components whatsoever. I know this is
anecdotal at best, but it seams reasonable for those in the know to correla
te pin wear to landing gear type as they chase down the root cause of the wear
that caused the tailplane flutter.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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| Subject: | Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type |
> the wear that caused the tailplane flutter
At this time, we don't know that any wear (if it was actually present) did cause
the flutter. The AAIB/PFA may decide that the evidence shows that it did but
they haven't, to my knowledge, announced that yet.
Please don't missunderstand me, I am all for improving the integrity of the Europa
tailplane system but let's base the discussion on known facts rather than
guesses.
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120504#120504
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| Subject: | Re: Article on flutter, now attached |
Dear All
Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us
distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF
and may be easier to read if you print it.
The link to their website incidentally is: www.flyer.co.uk
Willie Harrison
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
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| Subject: | Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type |
N128HW, a tri-gear motorglider, is operated out of a grass strip (WN92,
Spokane, Washington). The tailplane is tight across all parameters
after 150 hours of engine time.
----- Original Message -----
From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 6:18 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type
Greetings team,
As I read through the various theories of why the pin holes elongate
I'm left with a question that nobody seems to be asking (or maybe
somebody did ask and I missed it).
This is a little out of my area of expertise, but it seems rational to
me that either a mono or a conventional gear Europa, i.e., one with a
tailwheel, would transfer significantly more stress loads to the
components in the rear of the aircraft, thus leading to more wear on
everything back there. By contrast, the trigear would dampen those
stress loads by virtue of the main gear being a considerable distance
from the parts in question, thus damping any forces transferred to the
tail area. Stresses transferred by a trigear would further be damped by
the spring action of the main gear legs and the tires (tyres).
Has anyone ever correlated pin wear to landing gear type? Are there
more mono's and conventional gear Europa's showing pin wear and or hole
elongation than trigears?
In my case, N245E, a trigear, now has a bit over 100 hours TT. About
90% of the take offs and landings thus far have been made from my grass
strip and my pip pins are still tight as a tick. I have observed no
increased play in the tailplanes and only a slight amount of play in the
trim tabs and that hasn't changed since day one. I've also looked
closely at all the hardware in the tail and I cannot detect any wear on
any components whatsoever. I know this is anecdotal at best, but it
seams reasonable for those in the know to correlate pin wear to landing
gear type as they chase down the root cause of the wear that caused the
tailplane flutter.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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See what's free at AOL.com.
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| Subject: | Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type |
To take Mark's point a bit further, we do not even know at this point
that flutter was indeed involved in this mishap. All that is publically known
is that a worst case presumption of flutter was stated as a rationale to
ground the (UK) fleet.
I'd personally like to know if the physical evidence is strongly suggestive,
or simply possible of a link to flutter. Were there close by witnesses, were
the tailplanes 500 feet behind the rest of the airframe? Is a metallurgical
analysis of the torque tube being done?
The mention of flutter has brought a whole lot of comment, including
many suggestions to repair components which are not yet know to be
responsible.
It would certainly be nice if Andy, or someone from E04 could elucidate
the situation instead of having all of us wait in the dark for 12 months.
Ira
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120522#120522
Message 21
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| Subject: | Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Hi Ralph,
This is one of the services the Europa Club provides. If you join I can
send you a CD with all of the back issues of the factory newsletters. Just
go to www.europaclub.org.uk
Brian Davies, membership secretary, Europa Club
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K.
Hallett III
Sent: 25 June 2007 05:16
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
--> <n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
There are probably many of us, like myself that never get the factory news
letter. How do we get it? Or, could someone post the pip pin article?
Ralph
Reno, NV
Jon Smith wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> Factory news letter number 21 seems to cover this in the tech talk,
> page 14 entitled "torque tube".
> Regards, Jon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* R.C.Harrison <mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com <mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 22, 2007 8:18 PM
> *Subject:* Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
>
> Hi! All
>
> Im sensitive to all eyes being focused but quite independently
> from the present furore I have been asked where the original
> suggestion came from re:- radially slotting the Tail plane pip pin
> holes to ensure they imparted no drive but were only as retention
> pins.
>
> My initial response was from a Europa Aircraft Tech Bulletin
> .would those who know for definite please confirm or otherwise.
>
> Regards
>
> Bob H G-PTAG
>
> Robt.C.Harrison
>
> *
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matro
> nhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
09:43
09:43
Message 22
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| Subject: | Wikipedia's entry on flutter |
Resent message since the Matronics Forum will not receive mail as a "cc"
recipient.
Bob H
-----Original Message-----
From: R.C.Harrison [mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 25 June 2007 16:48
Cc: europa-list@matronics.com; 'G-IANI'
Subject: Europa Mod chase.......
For the attention of Andy Draper Chief Engineer Popular Flying
Association and Ian Rickard Europa Club Mods Rep.
Hi! Andy and Ian.
I see there is some competition in respect of clamping modifications to
the tail plane drive assembly and you are "working feverishly" to get
paperwork done for it's approval. My Clamp mod No. 10623 has already
been approved by the PFA. It is a long time established system and no
problems have been reported, in fact I have received numerous
communications of satisfaction from those who had the foresight to take
it on board and make an investment.
Copy of message just sent to Andy Draper and Ian Rickard the copy
bounced by The Matronics Forum since it will not receive "cc" mail.
Regards
Bob H
I would request that the interests of all those who already have my
system incorporated are seriously considered and if at all possible
their previous expense is not wasted by a superimposed modification
forcing redundancy on them which is IMHO "re-inventing the wheel".
In other words please ensure that any plan for mandatory modification
encompasses consideration of an exemption for those of my clients who
have already paid out to accommodate these "belt and braces"
requirements and or allow my modification to be offered as an option be
it mandatory or not.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG.
Robt.C.Harrison
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Article on flutter, now attached |
William Harrison a crit :
> Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us
> distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF
> and may be easier to read if you print it.
William and all,
Thanks for this very knowledgeable article.
By the way, balancing control surfaces directly instead of using a bob
weight on a balance arm is considered safer when practicable, especially
if the weight is evenly distributed spanwise.
I'm aware of at least two aerobatics airplanes that went down due to
aileron balance arm attachment failure followed by explosive flutter. In
one case the crew was able to bail out.
Has anyone mentioned balancing each tailplane directly with lead in the
leading edge? This would eliminate any possible slop on the balance arm
attachment points and reduce wear an tear on the torque tube.
FWIW,
Best regards,
--
Gilles,
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 24
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| Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Hey bob can we talk off line so I can get a set
Will
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
R.C.Harrison
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 09:31
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
Hi! Remi
You forgot my torque tube clamps as a permanent fix for no slop ever.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R=E9mi
Guerner
Sent: 24 June 2007 09:56
Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
Hi all,
The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means that, in
a
more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not balanced at all. This
is
a possible cause for flutter. I consider that any play in the chain
between
the mass balance arm and the tailplanes is unacceptable: that means zero
play between TP4 and TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and TP12. The
factory
solution is Mod 62: replacement of the =BC=94 pins by 3/8=94 pins. This
mod is
known to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As far as I know, there
are
3 solutions which have been implemented successfully by builders:
- gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4
- replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper pins
- replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts
As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all these
solutions have their own inconveniences and must be implemented
carefully,
but I believe these inconveniences are far outweighed by the safety of a
fully balanced tailplane in all conditions.
Regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours
Message 25
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Hi Ferg,
We installed a mechanical contactor in the passenger side head rest, as
shown in the following link, look under the 'Battery master switch'
link;
http://terryseaver.home.comcast.net/N135TD_mods.htm
Regards,
Terry Seaver
A135 / N135TD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 6:05 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Battery switch
Cheers,
I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches
for battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20
amps dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor.
If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short
description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a
useful source. US or UK no problem.
Thanks,
Ferg
Europa Classic 914 mono
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| Subject: | Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type |
Ira,
For clarification, the UK Europa fleet is not grounded. Only those aircraft
that have failed the PFA Flight Safety Bulletin are grounded until
rectification action is taken. We have indications that the AAIB will be
issueing a preliminary report within the next week.
We all want a lasting and efficient solution to whatever is judged to be the
fix for a yet unspecified problem. Regrettably, this always results in a
delay whilst investigations are carried out and modifications (if necessary)
are designed.
Brian Davies
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil
Sent: 25 June 2007 16:42
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type
To take Mark's point a bit further, we do not even know at this point that
flutter was indeed involved in this mishap. All that is publically known is
that a worst case presumption of flutter was stated as a rationale to ground
the (UK) fleet.
I'd personally like to know if the physical evidence is strongly suggestive,
or simply possible of a link to flutter. Were there close by witnesses,
were the tailplanes 500 feet behind the rest of the airframe? Is a
metallurgical analysis of the torque tube being done?
The mention of flutter has brought a whole lot of comment, including many
suggestions to repair components which are not yet know to be responsible.
It would certainly be nice if Andy, or someone from E04 could elucidate the
situation instead of having all of us wait in the dark for 12 months.
Ira
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120522#120522
09:43
09:43
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| Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
This is a hit in my mind also!
I hated the idea and removed
those ugly dicks from my trailer
to avoid any temptation to even consider
to transport tailplanes in them.
They feel good in my car=B4s trunk
(isolated by white styro foam).
Raimo
Another cause of the sleeves disbonding is transporting the tailplanes
on the Europa trailer. This places a direct strain on the TP6 sleeve,
much more that caused by flying or taxying over "rough ground".
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
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| Subject: | Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type |
Hi Brian,
Thank you for the clarification.
It had been my understanding that all UK Europas were grounded until
offical inspection and that the majority of those aircraft inspected actually
failed inspection from the comments posted here.
Is there anything that can be made public about the nature of the evidence
for stabilator oscillation to destructive failure?
Regards,
Ira
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120562#120562
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Retention |
Nice idea, but fundamentally doesn't provide connection of the TP skin to
the outer pip pin hole (which I understand the PFA are looking for) in the
event that the outer bush becomes disbonded and grossly loose. .
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 10:51 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention
>
> Roger
>
> Thanks this is GREAT. What we all want is this sort of thinking,
> outside the box. Please do not apologise for any failings others might
> spot. This may be the seed of the idea that saves us all a lot of
> problems.
>
> Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
> Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
> e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
> or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
>
>
>
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| Subject: | trigear vs. mono |
Hello John,
I think there is a lot of truth in what you are hinting at. Us trigear
jockeys are having to pay dearly for shortcomings in the mono. I always
wondered if that mod 70 was based on a semi crash landing in a mono. All my
fittings are dead tight and hope they stay that way. Wasn't William's mono
involved also in a gear up landing ? As you say, the statistics about slop,
that has developed over time, would be very useful to know.
As a side issue I am again questioning the wisdom of mod 71 with the steel
springs. My Europa has turned into a bucking bronco on local grass strips,
and if I didn't take a firm grip on the control column, that mass balance
arm would be flying all over the place.
Karl
>From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Europa-List: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type
>Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 09:18:07 EDT
>
>Greetings team,
>
>As I read through the various theories of why the pin holes elongate I'm
>left with a question that nobody seems to be asking (or maybe somebody did
>ask
>and I missed it).
>
>This is a little out of my area of expertise, but it seems rational to me
>that either a mono or a conventional gear Europa, i.e., one with a
>tailwheel,
>would transfer significantly more stress loads to the components in the
>rear
>of the aircraft, thus leading to more wear on everything back there. By
>contrast, the trigear would dampen those stress loads by virtue of the main
>gear
>being a considerable distance from the parts in question, thus damping any
>forces transferred to the tail area. Stresses transferred by a trigear
>would
>further be damped by the spring action of the main gear legs and the tires
>(tyres).
>
>Has anyone ever correlated pin wear to landing gear type? Are there more
>mono's and conventional gear Europa's showing pin wear and or hole
>elongation
>than trigears?
>
>In my case, N245E, a trigear, now has a bit over 100 hours TT. About 90%
>of
>the take offs and landings thus far have been made from my grass strip and
>my
>pip pins are still tight as a tick. I have observed no increased play in
>the
>tailplanes and only a slight amount of play in the trim tabs and that
>hasn't
>changed since day one. I've also looked closely at all the hardware in the
>tail and I cannot detect any wear on any components whatsoever. I know
>this is
>anecdotal at best, but it seams reasonable for those in the know to
>correla
>te pin wear to landing gear type as they chase down the root cause of the
>wear
>that caused the tailplane flutter.
>
>Regards,
>
>John Lawton
>Whitwell, TN (TN89)
>N245E - Flying
>
>
>************************************** See what's free at
>http://www.aol.com.
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 31
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| Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Hi Nigel
Yes, thank you for the additional detail. Bt you still don't say HOW the TP4
is to be cleaned out. And you say that the mass balance arm has to be
disconnected. That means having to crawl into the tail section and
performing all kinds of difficult tasks. My balance arm is very tight and
that was easy to do with the top off. I don't really want to touch it. I am
also not rushing into mod 70.
And as Mark and others have remarked: we don't really know anything about
the accident. Except, that a wing landed on the road, the main fuselage in a
field, that at least one tailplane came off initially, and a pip pin was
bent 90 degrees. Obviously something started the chain of events from the
tail somewhere. There may or may not have been any flutter. I guess we'll
find out a bit more in a week or so.
I like the idea of doing away with the mass balance arm, and weighting the
tailplanes internally, at least for new kits.
Karl
>From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
>Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:59:25 +0100
>
><nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
>
>Hi Karl,
>
>You're clearly thinking this through!
>
>My description was only an abstract to give an idea of the concept.
>The detailed proposals handle preparation insertion and bonding.
>
>Here is a description for those of you with an enquiring mind - I will not
>take offence if the rest of you skip this!
>
>TP4 has to be de-greased and de-burred inside prior to insertion. The discs
>have a scribe line on one side to indicate the orientation of the cross
>drill (facilitating alignment). You were on the money with regard to the
>insertion tool. A 6.0mm threaded bar (with two lock nuts) screws into a
>central hole in the disc. This allows the discs to be inserted into TP4 and
>rotated into correct alignment - two from one side and two from the other.
>
>The discs have a shallow groove centrally around the circumference. Once in
>position, bearing grade anaerobic adhesive (Loctite) is introduced through
>one of the TP4 holes and the discs rotated to distribute the adhesive. This
>ensures concentricity and accommodates any small variance of inside
>diameter.
>An AN4 bolt can be temporally inserted to locate the disc in the correct
>position and the thread bar removed. In this way, all four discs are placed
>and bonded. The 6mm holes also serve to cross vent the tube and provide a
>method (via spray tube) of introducing the anti-corrosion treatment of your
>choice (ACF50, WD40, Shell "Ensis" fluid, granny's beef dripping) into TP4.
>
>Once bonded, the tail can be re-assembled. The bolts have to be inserted
>from the rear to guarantee clearance with the rear bulkhead. This will
>involve rotating the TP4 assy up through 90 degrees to allow the bolts to
>be
>inserted from underneath. (The counter balance arm needs to be removed
>first). It does have the advantage that the castellated nuts and split pins
>can be inserted from the front of TP4 and not tucked behind as in the TP14
>assembly instructions.
>
>Hope this answers some of you (good) questions.
>
>Nigel (The other one)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
>Sent: 25 June 2007 12:30
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
>
>
>
>
>Hi Nigel,
>
>My main concern with this mod would be the insertion of the (predrilled)
>15mm discs into a tube with anti-corrosion paint on the inside. Would there
>be a suitable reamer to get it absolutely smooth, also to remove any burr
>from the enlarged holes. Then how do you aim to position the discs so that
>all the holes line up ? Maybe a threaded hole in the centre for attaching a
>long rod temporarily just for the lineup ?
>
>Karl
>
>
> >From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
> >To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
> >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:29:20 +0100
> >
> ><nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
> >
> >Hi Graham,
> >
> >FYI - I am working with Ian Rickard at the moment to document exactly
>what
> >I
> >did and present this to the PFA.
> >
> >To enlighten those of you not familiar with this mod:
> >A long time ago I identified the inherent shortfall with the TP14 method
>of
> >securing the drive arms to the torque tube. Merely replacing these pins
> >with
> >oversized pins would not in my opinion, cure the problem - only delay the
> >next re-occurrence once play developed.
> >
> >I developed a simple arrangement (KISS technology) that positively clamps
> >the drive arms (TP9 and TP12) onto the torque tube by replacing all four
> >TP14 pins with 1/4" x 2.125" AN bolts.
> >To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide
> >cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four stations.
> >To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle blocks"
> >(profiled
> >to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head and
> >castellated nut.
> >
> >The beauty of clamping is that it introduces a torque damper into the
>drive
> >system - eliminating the shock "chattering" that wears the standard TP14
> >pins and elongates the holes - and it can be retrofitted to tubes with
>worn
> >holes.
> >
> >Nigel (The other one) Graham
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham
> >Singleton
> >Sent: 25 June 2007 00:25
> >To: europa-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
> >
> >
> ><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
> >
> >Carl
> >The torque tube is chrome plated 4130 I believe, stainless isn't strong
> >enough.
> >You may have spotted the weakest link in the chain, if the TP9 & 12 had
> >more bearing area the slop problem might go away. Wouldn't be much
> >weight penalty either.
> >OTH clamp bolting as Nigel Graham did years ago might be the best answer.
> >Graham
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile.
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>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Battery switch |
Terry,
Thanks for the posting, I copied your idea and it looks to work just
great. Got my switch at a speed shop here in Reno.
Ralph
RKHallett III
xs mg with more parts in close formation
Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote:
>
> Hi Ferg,
>
> We installed a mechanical contactor in the passenger side head rest, as
> shown in the following link, look under the 'Battery master switch'
> link;
>
> http://terryseaver.home.comcast.net/N135TD_mods.htm
>
> Regards,
> Terry Seaver
> A135 / N135TD
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 6:05 PM
> To: 1AeroElectricLIST
> Subject: Europa-List: Battery switch
>
>
> Cheers,
> I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches
> for battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20
> amps dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor.
> If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short
> description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a
> useful source. US or UK no problem.
> Thanks,
> Ferg
> Europa Classic 914 mono
>
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Article on flutter, now attached |
So, does the Liberty use the same system as the Europa?
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Harrison" <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Article on flutter, now attached
> Dear All
>
> Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us
> distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF
> and may be easier to read if you print it.
>
> The link to their website incidentally is: www.flyer.co.uk
>
> Willie Harrison
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List</a>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a>
>
> </b></font></pre>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Article on flutter, now attached |
Not forgetting that I=mr2, counterbalance weights in the tailplane leadng
edge, apart from being much heavier would have much less inertia, offering a
lower amount of resistance to flutter and/or its initiation.
Duncan Mcf.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilles Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Article on flutter, now attached
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> William Harrison a crit :
>> Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us
>> distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF and
>> may be easier to read if you print it.
>
> William and all,
>
> Thanks for this very knowledgeable article.
> By the way, balancing control surfaces directly instead of using a bob
> weight on a balance arm is considered safer when practicable, especially
> if the weight is evenly distributed spanwise.
> I'm aware of at least two aerobatics airplanes that went down due to
> aileron balance arm attachment failure followed by explosive flutter. In
> one case the crew was able to bail out.
>
> Has anyone mentioned balancing each tailplane directly with lead in the
> leading edge? This would eliminate any possible slop on the balance arm
> attachment points and reduce wear an tear on the torque tube.
>
> FWIW,
> Best regards,
> --
> Gilles,
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Article on flutter, now attached |
It would be interesting to know just how much lead would be needed to
balance the tailplanes in this way...
Jeff - Baby Blue
299 hours
Gilles Thesee wrote:
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> William Harrison a crit :
>> Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us
>> distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF
>> and may be easier to read if you print it.
>
> William and all,
>
> Thanks for this very knowledgeable article.
> By the way, balancing control surfaces directly instead of using a bob
> weight on a balance arm is considered safer when practicable,
> especially if the weight is evenly distributed spanwise.
> I'm aware of at least two aerobatics airplanes that went down due to
> aileron balance arm attachment failure followed by explosive flutter.
> In one case the crew was able to bail out.
>
> Has anyone mentioned balancing each tailplane directly with lead in
> the leading edge? This would eliminate any possible slop on the
> balance arm attachment points and reduce wear an tear on the torque tube.
>
> FWIW,
> Best regards,
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type |
Nothing concrete yet, Ira.
We will just have to wait a few more days to hear what the AAIB have found.
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil
Sent: 25 June 2007 19:36
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type
Hi Brian,
Thank you for the clarification.
It had been my understanding that all UK Europas were grounded until offical
inspection and that the majority of those aircraft inspected actually failed
inspection from the comments posted here.
Is there anything that can be made public about the nature of the evidence
for stabilator oscillation to destructive failure?
Regards,
Ira
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120562#120562
09:43
09:43
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Article on flutter, now attached |
Duncan & Ami McFadyean a crit :
> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> Not forgetting that I=mr2, counterbalance weights in the tailplane
> leadng edge, apart from being much heavier would have much less
> inertia, offering a lower amount of resistance to flutter and/or its
> initiation.
Duncan,
The leading edge balance weight is something widespread in aviation.
Concerning weight, some messages seem to state that some Europas do
carry weight in the tail.
Defeating flutter necessitates a complex study, but mass balancing has
something to do with the POSITION of the CG of the control surface. It
is considered that one should aim at a forward or at least neutral CG
position with regard to the control hinge.
A lightweight construction aft of the hinge point is key, and painting
and hardware are best carefully studied to avoid adding weight aft of
the hinge.
The problem with mass balance arms (which are also used), is localized
wear and tear allowing slop to develop. Any slop encourages flutter.
Of course flutter also has to do with torsional and flexural(?)
properties of the structure.
Darrol Stinton's Design of the aeroplane could be a good starting point
for further insight.
FWIW,
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 38
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| Subject: | tailplane balance |
At the expense of showing my ignorance, why is the tailplane balanced as
it is? i.e. with the pivot point well forward of the c of g which
necessitates a balancing weight. Could it not have been designed with
the pivot point at the position of the c of g so no weight would be
needed?
Richard Iddon G-RIXS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff B
Sent: 25 June 2007 22:25
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Article on flutter, now attached
It would be interesting to know just how much lead would be needed to
balance the tailplanes in this way...
24/06/2007 08:33
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
Remi
the clamp solution was Nigel Graham's not mine, but I do like it. I'm
pleased your solution works too, my reservations about taper pins are
about the risk of distorting the cross tube and causing binding in the
bearings
regards
Graham
Rmi Guerner wrote:
> Hi Graham,
>
>
>
> Sorry I missed your clamp solution. Anyway, I went the taper pin way.
> Easy to do and very effective.
>
> Remi
>
>
>
>
> From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk
> <mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>>
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
>
> Hi! Remi
> You forgot my torque tube clamps as a permanent fix for no slop ever.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> Robt.C.Harrison
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of R=E9mi
> Guerner
> Sent: 24 June 2007 09:56
> Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
>
> Hi all,
>
> The half inch play tolerance as specified by the factory means that, in
> a more than one degree range, the tailplanes are not balanced at all.
> This is a possible cause for flutter. I consider that any play in the
> chain between the mass balance arm and the tailplanes is unacceptable:
> that means zero play between TP4 and TP9 and zero play between TP 4 and
> TP12. The factory solution is Mod 62: replacement of the =BC=94 pins by
> 3/8=94
> pins. This mod is known to only delay, not eliminate, the problem. As
> far as I know, there are 3 solutions which have been implemented
> successfully by builders:
> - gluing TP9 and TP12 to TP4
> - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN486 taper pins
> - replace the straight pins TP14C and TP14D by AN bolts
> As some builders have mentioned in this forum in the past, all these
> solutions have their own inconveniences and must be implemented
> carefully, but I believe these inconveniences are far outweighed by the
> safety of a fully balanced tailplane in all conditions.
> Regards
>
> Remi Guerner
> F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane flutter |
Don't think so Willie but I could be mistaken, only downside I can think
of is a slight weight penalty.
Graham
William Harrison wrote:
> <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
>
> Nigel,
>
> Would there be any problem with doing this with 3/8 bolts on an
> aircraft which had Mod 62 already done to it?
>
> This is such an appealing idea I think.
>
> Willie
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type |
John
you are probably right, or lucky, or both.
Graham
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote:
it seems rational to me that either a mono or a conventional gear
Europa, i.e., one with a
> tailwheel, would transfer significantly more stress loads to the
> components in the rear of the aircraft, thus leading to more wear on
> everything back there. By contrast, the trigear would dampen those
> stress loads by virtue of the main gear being a considerable distance
> from the parts in question, thus damping any forces transferred to the
> tail area. Stresses transferred by a trigear would further be damped by
> the spring action of the main gear legs and the tires (tyres).
>
> John Lawton
> Whitwell, TN (TN89)
> N245E - Flying
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: tailplane balance |
That's for aerodynamic reasons, in the early days the pivot was moved
about a bit to avoid "short period oscillation" and the present position
was perhaps the best compromise. The pivot needs to be in front of the
centre of pressure, which can move about a bit. Symetrical sections tend
not to have moving Cp but maybe it does move a bit.
Graham
Richard Iddon wrote:
>
> At the expense of showing my ignorance, why is the tailplane balanced as
> it is? i.e. with the pivot point well forward of the c of g which
> necessitates a balancing weight. Could it not have been designed with
> the pivot point at the position of the c of g so no weight would be
> needed?
>
> Richard Iddon G-RIXS
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Retention |
I am visiting the UK, staying in London for 4 weeks from 28th this month.
Am planning to attend the PFA Weekend at Popham 7/8th July.
Will there be any Europa builder/flyers there to chat to and which is
the best day to attend.
Regards
Sue & Bill
Mono XS
914 / Airmaster
580Hrs
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| Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Nigel...very sweet (KISS) solution...one question: Why castellated nuts
rather than nylocs?
Also.. What material(s) did you use for your "discs" and "saddles"?
Fred
On Monday, June 25, 2007, at 03:29 AM, Nigel Graham wrote:
> To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide
> cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four stations.
> To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle blocks"
> (profiled
> to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head and
> castellated nut.
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Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Article on flutter, now attached |
Thoughts and questions for those that know,
I have been reading with great interest.....and concern......this flutter
thread. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the flutter the result of the
total slop anywhere in between the mass balance weight and the tailplane? The
more slop the more up and down travel distance the tailplane will be able to
move. I doubt if the mass balance weight is fluttering during this event.
Now if the weight was an integral part of the tailplane, then one could not
flutter without the other. And since the weight would be further back, the
fuselage CofG could be maintained with less total weight.
Question: Does the frequency of the flutter of a particular plane increase
and decrease with a change of airspeed? What is the failure mechanism caused by
flutter? Does the part that flutters destroy itself?
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
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