Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:54 AM - Tailplane Flutter (Carl Pattinson)
2. 01:04 AM - AW: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Europa (Alfred Buess))
3. 01:33 AM - Re: tailplane balance (David Joyce)
4. 01:33 AM - Popham fly-in (=?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?=)
5. 01:35 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Nigel Graham)
6. 02:04 AM - Re: Tailplane Flutter (William Harrison)
7. 02:18 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (R.C.Harrison)
8. 02:20 AM - Re: Battery switch (Richard Collings)
9. 03:03 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (Michel AUVRAY)
10. 03:09 AM - Re: Tailplane Flutter (Carl Pattinson)
11. 05:21 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (Graham Singleton)
12. 05:36 AM - Tailplane Balance (Tony Wickens)
13. 07:32 AM - Re: AW: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Ralph K. Hallett III)
14. 07:32 AM - Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
15. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (Carl Pattinson)
16. 08:59 AM - Re: Tailplane Balance (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
17. 09:49 AM - Re: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (William Harrison)
18. 09:56 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (William Harrison)
19. 10:09 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (R.C.Harrison)
20. 12:39 PM - Re: Tailplane Balance (Tony Wickens)
21. 03:22 PM - Re: Tailplane Retention (Laptop JR)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Tailplane Flutter |
For what its worth, I believe the cause of this accident has nothing to do
with "wear" in the tailplane assemblies. I base my "theory" on the simple
fact that many Europas have flown many flying hours with no reported
evidence of tailplane flutter.
Wear and tear is a fact of engineering life and the current Mod 62 seems to
be as good a design as any. Reports from the field suggest that with Mod 62
done properly, subsequent wear is minimal. Undoubtedly there are
potentially better designs out there - hindsight is a wonderful thing.
My other concern is that changing a reasonably good design could move the
problem elsewhere - how much damage is being done by builders kneeling in
the back end of their fuselages - the push/ pull tube is very vunerable and
simply cant be removed.
It seems more likely IMHO that there was a failure was due to the separation
of one of the tailplanes for reasons which have already been discussed.
Tailplane flutter may well have occurred when the tailplane disengaged the
drive pins but this would not be attributable wear in the system. The PFA's
current interest in the design of the pip pin recesses would lend weight to
this possibility.
Till we have the full findings of the AIIB we shouldnt be redesigning the
aeroplane based on such limited evidence (I know the PFA have asked for our
feedback on this).
I would hope that before changing the design the PFA or Europa will conduct
a survey amongst the current Europa fleet to establish if wear in the torque
assembly (post Mod62) is a genuine problem or a myth. My understanding is
that such a survey has not as yet been done - either by tha PFA or by the
factory, though no doubt the recent sales figures of Mod 62 kits will give
them a better idea.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Harrison" <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Article on flutter, now attached
> Dear All
>
> Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us
> distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF
> and may be easier to read if you print it.
>
> The link to their website incidentally is: www.flyer.co.uk
>
> Willie Harrison
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List</a>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a>
>
> </b></font></pre>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Ralph
Attached is a pdf-copy of the article you are looking for. Hope it
helps.
Regards,
Alfred
=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8
=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8
=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8
=A8
=A8=A8=A8
Alfred Buess
CH-3052 Zollikofen, Switzerland
E-Mail: ykibuess@bluewin.ch
Europa XS #097, Monowheel, Foam shortwing, Rotax 912S, Airmaster 332 CS
-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Ralph K.
Hallett III
Gesendet: Montag, 25. Juni 2007 05:16
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
--> <n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
There are probably many of us, like myself that never get the factory
news
letter. How do we get it? Or, could someone post the pip pin article?
Ralph
Reno, NV
Jon Smith wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> Factory news letter number 21 seems to cover this in the tech talk,
> page 14 entitled "torque tube".
> Regards, Jon
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: tailplane balance |
Richard, It is critical that the centre of lift or pressure is on the axis
or behind it for an all moving tail plane. If it is in front then any
increase in incidence immediately produces a force trying to further
increase that incidence. Such a system is highly unstable and would try to
snatch the stick out of your hand! If it succeeds disaster inevitably
follows.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Iddon" <riddon@sent.com>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 11:35 PM
Subject: Europa-List: tailplane balance
>
> At the expense of showing my ignorance, why is the tailplane balanced as
> it is? i.e. with the pivot point well forward of the c of g which
> necessitates a balancing weight. Could it not have been designed with
> the pivot point at the position of the c of g so no weight would be
> needed?
>
> Richard Iddon G-RIXS
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff B
> Sent: 25 June 2007 22:25
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Article on flutter, now attached
>
>
> It would be interesting to know just how much lead would be needed to
> balance the tailplanes in this way...
>
>
> 24/06/2007 08:33
>
>
Message 4
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Sue and Bill,
I am planning to fly to Popham provided that we are not grounded by our authorities
or the weather or both. Weather in UK and northern France has been awful
for the last 2 or 3 weeks. Saturday is probably the best day to attend. I would
be happy to chat with you and others.
Regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours
I am visiting the UK, staying in London for 4 weeks from 28th this month.
Am planning to attend the PFA Weekend at Popham 7/8th July.
Will there be any Europa builder/flyers there to chat to and which is
the best day to attend.
Regards
Sue & Bill
Message 5
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| Subject: | Tailplane flutter |
Hi Fred.
The castellated nut is a standard AN part and was chosen because the split
pins can be inspected visually at any time.
Nylocks would work perfectly - but there is no guarantee that somebody would
not re-use them and you cannot gauge the integrity by looking at them.
I specified zinc passivated mild steel for both on the grounds that the
coefficient of expansion is about the same as the TP4 and the risk of
galvanic action is reduced.
The truth is that you could probably make the discs out of an anodised alloy
with no ill effects - and save weight into the bargain.
Nigel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: 26 June 2007 04:57
Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter
Nigel...very sweet (KISS) solution...one question: Why castellated nuts
rather than nylocs?
Also.. What material(s) did you use for your "discs" and "saddles"?
Fred
On Monday, June 25, 2007, at 03:29 AM, Nigel Graham wrote:
> To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide
> cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four stations.
> To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle blocks"
> (profiled
> to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head and
> castellated nut.
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Flutter |
Carl
Having flown around, at least for a short while, in a Europa with 1"
of slop at the stab trailing edges (* see also below), without any
sign of flutter, I tend to agree that slop of itself might not be a
DIRECT cause of flutter in a Europa tailplane. However, could it
have been an INDIRECT cause: would you not agree that increasing
"wear" in the TP12/TP4 joint could lead to a TP6 failure (via undue
torsional loads going through the pip pin)? Having said that, I am
aware that we are speculating about really happened and why, although
some very strong hints are emerging already (PFA's invitation to us
to propose anti-wear joint designs, and the focus on the pip pin recess)
* In my case, the slop was not due to wear but due to bad manufacture
(he aircraft had total time of 12 hours when I bought it). If you can
believe the paperwork, it had also been tested to Vne on two
occasions in the previous 12 months when most or all of the 1" slop
was present. Makes you think.
Willie
On 26 Jun 2007, at 08:53, Carl Pattinson wrote:
> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> For what its worth, I believe the cause of this accident has
> nothing to do with "wear" in the tailplane assemblies. I base my
> "theory" on the simple fact that many Europas have flown many
> flying hours with no reported evidence of tailplane flutter.
>
> Wear and tear is a fact of engineering life and the current Mod 62
> seems to be as good a design as any. Reports from the field
> suggest that with Mod 62 done properly, subsequent wear is
> minimal. Undoubtedly there are potentially better designs out
> there - hindsight is a wonderful thing.
>
> My other concern is that changing a reasonably good design could
> move the problem elsewhere - how much damage is being done by
> builders kneeling in the back end of their fuselages - the push/
> pull tube is very vunerable and simply cant be removed.
>
> It seems more likely IMHO that there was a failure was due to the
> separation of one of the tailplanes for reasons which have already
> been discussed. Tailplane flutter may well have occurred when the
> tailplane disengaged the drive pins but this would not be
> attributable wear in the system. The PFA's current interest in the
> design of the pip pin recesses would lend weight to this possibility.
>
> Till we have the full findings of the AIIB we shouldnt be
> redesigning the aeroplane based on such limited evidence (I know
> the PFA have asked for our feedback on this).
>
> I would hope that before changing the design the PFA or Europa will
> conduct a survey amongst the current Europa fleet to establish if
> wear in the torque assembly (post Mod62) is a genuine problem or a
> myth. My understanding is that such a survey has not as yet been
> done - either by tha PFA or by the factory, though no doubt the
> recent sales figures of Mod 62 kits will give them a better idea.
>
> Carl Pattinson
> G-LABS
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Harrison"
> <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 3:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Article on flutter, now attached
>
>
>> Dear All
>>
>> Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us
>> distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF
>> and may be easier to read if you print it.
>>
>> The link to their website incidentally is: www.flyer.co.uk
>>
>> Willie Harrison
>>
>>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
>
>
>>
>>
>> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List</a>
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a>
>>
>> </b></font></pre>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Tailplane Retention |
Hi! Bill and Sue
We can't help with things to do in London however should you venture
"North of Watford" give us a call...... we have Kingsley Hurst and
Janice with us for a couple of nights at present but with the weather as
it's been they are sorry to not have brought their cossy's with them.
Regards
Bob and Jan Harrison G-PTAG North Lincolnshire.
01472 852498
do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill and
Sue
Sent: 26 June 2007 04:20
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention
I am visiting the UK, staying in London for 4 weeks from 28th this
month.
Am planning to attend the PFA Weekend at Popham 7/8th July.
Will there be any Europa builder/flyers there to chat to and which is
the best day to attend.
Regards
Sue & Bill
Mono XS
914 / Airmaster
580Hrs
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Battery switch |
Hi again sorry my first email went wrong , look up www.flamingriver.com they
have a range of switches that I think fit the bill . Regards Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 2:05 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Battery switch
>
> Cheers,
> I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for
> battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps
> dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor.
> If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short
> description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a
> useful source. US or UK no problem.
> Thanks,
> Ferg
> Europa Classic 914 mono
>
>
> --
> 11:08
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Tailplane Retention |
Hi Roger Sheridan,
I like your solution,
do you have a face picture, and/or drawing.
Thanks
Michel Auvray
Builder 145 > 300 hours flight
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]De la part de Roger
Sheridan
Envoye : lundi 25 juin 2007 08:53
A : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Europa-List: Tailplane Retention
>
> Dear Forum/PFA/Europa,
>
> This mod has not been approved or tested and the photos are only of
> a trial installation so please don't bother with too much negative
> feedback - it wasn't even my idea originally!
>
> It does fit the tailplanes securely with no load transferred to the
> internal bushes.
>
> I'm not proposing an alternative system, it's just an idea for
> consideration by those who are reviewing the design of our
> tailplane retention system.
>
> Brgds,
>
> Roger
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Flutter |
Im not saying we shouldnt be concerned about the amount of slop in the
tailplanes. The PFA's current limit of 1/2 inch would seem to be reasonable.
We checked ours last week - as soon as we recieved the PFA bulletins and
found 3/8" movement between the tailplanes and a total of 5/8" movement when
the counterbalance arm was locked against the top fuselage stop and both
tailplanes moved up and down (hope that makes sense). Note - the second
measurement is not a requirement of the original 1999 PFA bulletin though it
goes on to say that no play is acceptable between TP04 an TP09.
We promptly installed Mod 62 and have concluded that the original 1/4" pins
had probably always been a loose fit - either due to poor manufacture or
installation. Unfortunately 13 years ago when we were building the aircraft
we didnt understand the implications of loose fitting pins.
The aircraft had its annual in March and we did the dive to 150kts twice -
once with Andy Draper at the controls and once with me. Im sure if anything
had been amiss Andy would have noticed. We also did a series of stalls and
incipient spins and again no problems were found.
One point I would mention is that there is no official Annual Inspection
checklist for the Europa fuselage (as far as I am aware) and I believe this
issue should be addressed. The current regime relies on the owner and
inspectors vigilance in noticing defects and potential problems. Some
inspectors will have more experience with Europa related issues and others
less so.
And before anyone jumps to conclusions, I should make it clear that Andy
Draper did not conduct the annual inspection - only the test flight. The
annual inspection was none the less a thorough one.
So the business of tailplane flutter is a bit of a mystery.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Harrison" <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Flutter
> <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
>
> Carl
>
> Having flown around, at least for a short while, in a Europa with 1" of
> slop at the stab trailing edges (* see also below), without any sign of
> flutter, I tend to agree that slop of itself might not be a DIRECT cause
> of flutter in a Europa tailplane. However, could it have been an
> INDIRECT cause: would you not agree that increasing "wear" in the
> TP12/TP4 joint could lead to a TP6 failure (via undue torsional loads
> going through the pip pin)? Having said that, I am aware that we are
> speculating about really happened and why, although some very strong
> hints are emerging already (PFA's invitation to us to propose anti-wear
> joint designs, and the focus on the pip pin recess)
>
> * In my case, the slop was not due to wear but due to bad manufacture (he
> aircraft had total time of 12 hours when I bought it). If you can believe
> the paperwork, it had also been tested to Vne on two occasions in the
> previous 12 months when most or all of the 1" slop was present. Makes you
> think.
>
> Willie
>
>
> On 26 Jun 2007, at 08:53, Carl Pattinson wrote:
>
>> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>>
>> For what its worth, I believe the cause of this accident has nothing to
>> do with "wear" in the tailplane assemblies. I base my "theory" on the
>> simple fact that many Europas have flown many flying hours with no
>> reported evidence of tailplane flutter.
>>
>> Wear and tear is a fact of engineering life and the current Mod 62 seems
>> to be as good a design as any. Reports from the field suggest that with
>> Mod 62 done properly, subsequent wear is minimal. Undoubtedly there are
>> potentially better designs out there - hindsight is a wonderful thing.
>>
>> My other concern is that changing a reasonably good design could move
>> the problem elsewhere - how much damage is being done by builders
>> kneeling in the back end of their fuselages - the push/ pull tube is
>> very vunerable and simply cant be removed.
>>
>> It seems more likely IMHO that there was a failure was due to the
>> separation of one of the tailplanes for reasons which have already been
>> discussed. Tailplane flutter may well have occurred when the tailplane
>> disengaged the drive pins but this would not be attributable wear in the
>> system. The PFA's current interest in the design of the pip pin recesses
>> would lend weight to this possibility.
>>
>> Till we have the full findings of the AIIB we shouldnt be redesigning
>> the aeroplane based on such limited evidence (I know the PFA have asked
>> for our feedback on this).
>>
>> I would hope that before changing the design the PFA or Europa will
>> conduct a survey amongst the current Europa fleet to establish if wear
>> in the torque assembly (post Mod62) is a genuine problem or a myth. My
>> understanding is that such a survey has not as yet been done - either by
>> tha PFA or by the factory, though no doubt the recent sales figures of
>> Mod 62 kits will give them a better idea.
>>
>> Carl Pattinson
>> G-LABS
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Harrison"
>> <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
>> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 3:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Article on flutter, now attached
>>
>>
>>> Dear All
>>>
>>> Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us
>>> distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF
>>> and may be easier to read if you print it.
>>>
>>> The link to their website incidentally is: www.flyer.co.uk
>>>
>>> Willie Harrison
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>>>
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://
>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List</a>
>>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a>
>>>
>>> </b></font></pre>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Retention |
Maybe I should go back to making wetsuits for a living! Are you flooded
over there?
Graham
R.C.Harrison wrote:
>
> Hi! Bill and Sue
> We can't help with things to do in London however should you venture
> "North of Watford" give us a call...... we have Kingsley Hurst and
> Janice with us for a couple of nights at present but with the weather as
> it's been they are sorry to not have brought their cossy's with them.
> Regards
> Bob and Jan Harrison G-PTAG North Lincolnshire.
> 01472 852498
Message 12
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| Subject: | Tailplane Balance |
I am not moved to write often but just to add my two cents worth. Almost
everything we are saying is based on supposition regarding, in
particular, the tragic accident to Williams Europa. There has naturally
been much speculation, particularly after the early mention of flutter
as a possible cause. As with all accidents there were probably a number
of mutually divergent occurancies which led to the eventual loss of
control but I am waiting for the AAIB to give their findings as it would
appear that a preliminary report is imminent.
Making reference to comments in recent e-mails
If the tailplane balance weights were placed in the leading edge of each
tailplane you would end up with about four times the weight of the
present TP19's (200mm arm as opposed to the 800mm at present). I don't
have access to the TP19's at the moment but they are heavy and four
times heavy is very heavy, and this would obviously be undesirable in
weight and C of G terms. However it is probably correct that the mono is
slightly more prone to shock loading at the pin securing the TP12.
Although the 'system' is balanced, the tailplane is itself tail heavy,
and on landing and over rough ground this couple is resisted mainly by
the TP12 pins. A similar situation occurs of course with the balance
weight arm at TP9 and its two pins TP14C. Pronounced pitching on the
close coupled Trike gear on a rough surface would cause similar forces.
Taxi-ing at slower speeds is desireable for this and many other reasons.
All design is a compromise but obviously if the balance weights were in
the leading edge of the tailplane then it would avoid the above
situation and each tailplane would be individually balanced as the
ailerons are on the Europa. I suspect that in the original design this
option was discarded in the interests of weight saving, and bearing in
mind the arm length, from a weight and balance point of view.
I think there is a lot of truth in what you are hinting at. Us trigear
jockeys are having to pay dearly for shortcomings in the mono.
I don't think comments such as those above are very helpful. All design
is a compromise and the Europa was designed around a unique set of
operational objectives which is why so many of us bought Europa kits. It
is different to other taildraggers and requires slight modifications to
standard taildragger technique as does the Pitts Special and some other
more demanding aircraft. It is the only kit to have multi configuration
which allows people to make a personal choice depending on their
preferences. As I said at the beginning lets wait for the results of the
investigation before jumping to dubious judgments.
Tony
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? |
Alfred,
Thank you very much.
Ralph
Europa (Alfred Buess) wrote:
> Ralph
>
> Attached is a pdf-copy of the article you are looking for. Hope it helps.
>
> Regards,
> Alfred
>
>
> Alfred Buess
> CH-3052 Zollikofen, Switzerland
> E-Mail: ykibuess@bluewin.ch
> Europa XS #097, Monowheel, Foam shortwing, Rotax 912S, Airmaster 332 CS
>
>
> -----Ursprngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Ralph K.
> Hallett III
> Gesendet: Montag, 25. Juni 2007 05:16
> An: europa-list@matronics.com
> Betreff: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes?
>
> --> <n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
>
> There are probably many of us, like myself that never get the factory news
> letter. How do we get it? Or, could someone post the pip pin article?
> Ralph
> Reno, NV
>
> Jon Smith wrote:
>
>> Hi Bob,
>> Factory news letter number 21 seems to cover this in the tech talk,
>> page 14 entitled "torque tube".
>> Regards, Jon
>>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type |
In a message dated 6/26/2007 2:59:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
europa-list@matronics.com writes:
At this time, we don't know that any wear (if it was actually present) did
cause
the flutter. The AAIB/PFA may decide that the evidence shows that it did but
they haven't, to my knowledge, announced that yet.
Please don't missunderstand me, I am all for improving the integrity of the
Europa
tailplane system but let's base the discussion on known facts rather than
guesses.
Mark,
I'm not guessing about anything here. The purpose of the question I posed
was entirely aimed at obtaining facts about whether or not there anyone had
noticed a correlation between torque tube wear and landing gear type, not to
guess whether or not tailplane flutter caused the accident. It's the PFA that
is
all hot and bothered about associating pitch system wear and tailplane
flutter, not me. It's the PFA that has issued documents that infer a link to
sloppiness in the pitch system to tailplane flutter based on a single, isolated
incident, and the notion (or guess if you will) that tailplane flutter is what
caused the crash, not me. It's the PFA that seems to be the one that is doing
the guessing here, not me. All I did was read the documents the PFA
released regarding this incident and, based on their commentary, asked a legitimate
question about whether anyone had noticed a correlation between landing gear
type and torque tube wear. Although it seems like an obvious question to me,
judging by the responses thus far, apparently no one has bothered to look for
a correlation.
If Europa 04 keeps records on who they've sold Mod 62 kits to and what kind
of landing gear the aircraft uses, it would be easy to see if the wear on the
torque tube(s) is more prevalent in mono's, trigears or neither. Since the
PFA seems to be suggesting (guessing) that wear in the pitch system possibly
lead to tailplane flutter which resulted in the recent crash in the UK, it
stands to reason that the PFA would want to isolate those aircraft where the
wear is more likely to occur, if indeed wear is more prevalent in one type of
landing gear as opposed to another and if sloppiness in the pitch system lead
to tailplane flutter and if that flutter caused the crash. If indeed this is
the case, the focus of any corrective action should be directed where it is
most needed. What the PFA has done so far is the scatter-gun approach.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type |
Hey guys, were on the same side - arent we?
The PFA are on our side too in case anyone thought otherwise! I agree
they are doing a lot of guessing but at least its educated as opposed to
the speculation that has been going on in this forum (and I include
myself in that category).
Its understandable that we all want answers but taking exception at what
someone has said is pointless and unecessary.
It would be better if we all shut up and waited till the AIIB publishes
its findings but that aint going to happen - is it?
----- Original Message -----
From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 3:31 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type
In a message dated 6/26/2007 2:59:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
europa-list@matronics.com writes:
At this time, we don't know that any wear (if it was actually
present) did cause
the flutter. The AAIB/PFA may decide that the evidence shows that it
did but
they haven't, to my knowledge, announced that yet.
Please don't missunderstand me, I am all for improving the integrity
of the Europa
tailplane system but let's base the discussion on known facts rather
than
guesses.
Mark,
I'm not guessing about anything here. The purpose of the question I
posed was entirely aimed at obtaining facts about whether or not there
anyone had noticed a correlation between torque tube wear and landing
gear type, not to guess whether or not tailplane flutter caused the
accident. It's the PFA that is all hot and bothered about associating
pitch system wear and tailplane flutter, not me. It's the PFA that has
issued documents that infer a link to sloppiness in the pitch system to
tailplane flutter based on a single, isolated incident, and the notion
(or guess if you will) that tailplane flutter is what caused the crash,
not me. It's the PFA that seems to be the one that is doing the guessing
here, not me. All I did was read the documents the PFA released
regarding this incident and, based on their commentary, asked a
legitimate question about whether anyone had noticed a correlation
between landing gear type and torque tube wear. Although it seems like
an obvious question to me, judging by the responses thus far, apparently
no one has bothered to look for a correlation.
If Europa 04 keeps records on who they've sold Mod 62 kits to and what
kind of landing gear the aircraft uses, it would be easy to see if the
wear on the torque tube(s) is more prevalent in mono's, trigears or
neither. Since the PFA seems to be suggesting (guessing) that wear in
the pitch system possibly lead to tailplane flutter which resulted in
the recent crash in the UK, it stands to reason that the PFA would want
to isolate those aircraft where the wear is more likely to occur, if
indeed wear is more prevalent in one type of landing gear as opposed to
another and if sloppiness in the pitch system lead to tailplane flutter
and if that flutter caused the crash. If indeed this is the case, the
focus of any corrective action should be directed where it is most
needed. What the PFA has done so far is the scatter-gun approach.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
See what's free at AOL.com.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Balance |
In a message dated 6/26/2007 5:37:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
tonywickens@btconnect.com writes:
It is different to other taildraggers and requires slight modifications to
standard taildragger technique as does the Pitts Special and some other more
demanding aircraft.
Good Day Tony,
If you have specific knowledge with regard to the Europa I would appreciate
it if you could elaborate on this sentence. I have flown only Citabrias for my
tailwheel transition and am building my Europa with a conventional setup. I
was just wondering what adjustments I might have to make.
Thanks in advance.
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type |
John
It is a fair question, but we'd need to be careful in interpreting
the answer - Monos tend to be older and more home-crafted than tris
so you'd have to disentangle those factors from any possible direct
link between slop and undercarriage configuration.
Incidentally, a senior bod at the PFA told one of our colleagues
earlier this week that "We may never know the full story". We may be
stuck therefore with having to adopt the scatter gun approach to
ensuring the integrity of our aircraft.
Willie Harrison
G-BZNY (passed all its FSB 006 checks today. Popham here we come...)
On 26 Jun 2007, at 15:31, TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 6/26/2007 2:59:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> europa-list@matronics.com writes:
> At this time, we don't know that any wear (if it was actually
> present) did cause
> the flutter. The AAIB/PFA may decide that the evidence shows that
> it did but
> they haven't, to my knowledge, announced that yet.
>
> Please don't missunderstand me, I am all for improving the
> integrity of the Europa
> tailplane system but let's base the discussion on known facts
> rather than
> guesses.
>
> Mark,
> I'm not guessing about anything here. The purpose of the question I
> posed was entirely aimed at obtaining facts about whether or not
> there anyone had noticed a correlation between torque tube wear and
> landing gear type, not to guess whether or not tailplane flutter
> caused the accident. It's the PFA that is all hot and bothered
> about associating pitch system wear and tailplane flutter, not me.
> It's the PFA that has issued documents that infer a link to
> sloppiness in the pitch system to tailplane flutter based on a
> single, isolated incident, and the notion (or guess if you will)
> that tailplane flutter is what caused the crash, not me. It's the
> PFA that seems to be the one that is doing the guessing here, not
> me. All I did was read the documents the PFA released regarding
> this incident and, based on their commentary, asked a legitimate
> question about whether anyone had noticed a correlation between
> landing gear type and torque tube wear. Although it seems like an
> obvious question to me, judging by the responses thus far,
> apparently no one has bothered to look for a correlation.
>
> If Europa 04 keeps records on who they've sold Mod 62 kits to and
> what kind of landing gear the aircraft uses, it would be easy to
> see if the wear on the torque tube(s) is more prevalent in mono's,
> trigears or neither. Since the PFA seems to be suggesting
> (guessing) that wear in the pitch system possibly lead to tailplane
> flutter which resulted in the recent crash in the UK, it stands to
> reason that the PFA would want to isolate those aircraft where the
> wear is more likely to occur, if indeed wear is more prevalent in
> one type of landing gear as opposed to another and if sloppiness in
> the pitch system lead to tailplane flutter and if that flutter
> caused the crash. If indeed this is the case, the focus of any
> corrective action should be directed where it is most needed. What
> the PFA has done so far is the scatter-gun approach.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> John Lawton
> Whitwell, TN (TN89)
> N245E - Flying
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Retention |
Hello Bill
Mine (G-BZNY) is un-grounded again having passed its FSB 006 checks
today. I'll see if I can negotiate a Permit to Fly from Higher
Authority (SWMBO) to go to Popham.
Who knows, Summer might even put in an appearance.
Regards
Willie
On 26 Jun 2007, at 04:19, Bill and Sue wrote:
> <bill.sue@orcon.net.nz>
>
> I am visiting the UK, staying in London for 4 weeks from 28th this
> month.
>
> Am planning to attend the PFA Weekend at Popham 7/8th July.
>
> Will there be any Europa builder/flyers there to chat to and which
> is the best day to attend.
>
> Regards
>
> Sue & Bill
>
> Mono XS
> 914 / Airmaster
> 580Hrs
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Tailplane Retention |
Hi! Graham
No we aren't flooded since we are about 300ft above sea level. However
Roger Cullum and family had to stay with us last night and tonight since
his house has 1ft of water in it. Never mind wet suits ....a device to
make water run up hill would be sure to make a bloody fortune !
G'day Mate!
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: 26 June 2007 13:23
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Maybe I should go back to making wetsuits for a living! Are you flooded
over there?
Graham
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Balance |
Hi Mike
I was only referring to the Pitts as an aircraft that required just a
little more training for anyone new to the type as does the Europa. I am
personally not familiar with the Citabria although from what I have read
that experience will be more than adequate. In the UK the PFA instituted
a coaching scheme where experienced pilots are cleared to give
conversion training on specific aircraft. This has worked well over here
and I believe is very popular with the insurance companies. In fact I
think they make such training a condition of cover. I am still building
but also have a share in a monowheel and had conversion training as
mentioned above. The airplane is a delight to fly but a bit more
demanding on landing. I found the most difficult thing to get used to
was the power and sensitivity of the elevator after other taildragers
that I have flown. Having said that it is not difficult to get used to
and of course it is vital to use the rudder to keep straight until the
aircraft stops as is the case with all taildraggers. Hard runways are a
little more testing than grass in terms of keeping straight but again
this is not too demanding. I agree with the people who wisely advise to
limit the cross winds building up your personal limits gradually,
particularly on hard runways. Take offs are easy, holding the tail on
the ground until aerodynamic aileron control is established. It is
IMNSHO the best handling kit aircraft and a delight to fly and tour in.
Like all aircraft types one needs to fully understand them, and as the
late Tommy Sopwith so aptly put it "make friends with them". Best advice
I would give is find a good coach or instructor but one experienced on
the Europa and spend a few hours, four or five is not too many, until
you feel comfortable with the aircraft and then very slowly expand your
own envelope. The level of coach over here is very high, in fact the
person that converted me was a Royal Air Force test pilot and is now a
test pilot with Airbus, although they come from all backgrounds and I am
sure there are many such people in California. I would think Kim Prout
would be an excellent source of knowledge although California is very
big and he may not live close to you. I should add that I am not a
professional pilot, I am a professional engineer, now retired but I have
been flying taildraggers mainly since 1959 with a beak of about 20 years
when I couldn't afford to rent airplanes. So if I can fly the Europa I
am sure anyone can.
Regards
Tony
----- Original Message -----
From: DuaneFamly@aol.com
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Balance
In a message dated 6/26/2007 5:37:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
tonywickens@btconnect.com writes:
It is different to other taildraggers and requires slight
modifications to standard taildragger technique as does the Pitts
Special and some other more demanding aircraft.
Good Day Tony,
If you have specific knowledge with regard to the Europa I would
appreciate it if you could elaborate on this sentence. I have flown only
Citabrias for my tailwheel transition and am building my Europa with a
conventional setup. I was just wondering what adjustments I might have
to make.
Thanks in advance.
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
See what's free at AOL.com.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Retention |
Bob
Well Kingslely and Jan sure get around!
Best Wishes to you all from far off and cold Oz.
JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention
>
> Hi! Bill and Sue
> We can't help with things to do in London however should you venture
> "North of Watford" give us a call...... we have Kingsley Hurst and
> Janice with us for a couple of nights at present but with the weather as
> it's been they are sorry to not have brought their cossy's with them.
> Regards
> Bob and Jan Harrison G-PTAG North Lincolnshire.
> 01472 852498
> do not archive.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill and
> Sue
> Sent: 26 June 2007 04:20
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention
>
>
> I am visiting the UK, staying in London for 4 weeks from 28th this
> month.
>
> Am planning to attend the PFA Weekend at Popham 7/8th July.
>
> Will there be any Europa builder/flyers there to chat to and which is
> the best day to attend.
>
> Regards
>
> Sue & Bill
>
> Mono XS
> 914 / Airmaster
> 580Hrs
>
>
>
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