---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/26/07: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:54 AM - Tailplane Flutter (Carl Pattinson) 2. 01:04 AM - AW: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Europa (Alfred Buess)) 3. 01:33 AM - Re: tailplane balance (David Joyce) 4. 01:33 AM - Popham fly-in (=?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?=) 5. 01:35 AM - Re: Tailplane flutter (Nigel Graham) 6. 02:04 AM - Re: Tailplane Flutter (William Harrison) 7. 02:18 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (R.C.Harrison) 8. 02:20 AM - Re: Battery switch (Richard Collings) 9. 03:03 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (Michel AUVRAY) 10. 03:09 AM - Re: Tailplane Flutter (Carl Pattinson) 11. 05:21 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (Graham Singleton) 12. 05:36 AM - Tailplane Balance (Tony Wickens) 13. 07:32 AM - Re: AW: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? (Ralph K. Hallett III) 14. 07:32 AM - Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 15. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (Carl Pattinson) 16. 08:59 AM - Re: Tailplane Balance (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 17. 09:49 AM - Re: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type (William Harrison) 18. 09:56 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (William Harrison) 19. 10:09 AM - Re: Tailplane Retention (R.C.Harrison) 20. 12:39 PM - Re: Tailplane Balance (Tony Wickens) 21. 03:22 PM - Re: Tailplane Retention (Laptop JR) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:42 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane Flutter For what its worth, I believe the cause of this accident has nothing to do with "wear" in the tailplane assemblies. I base my "theory" on the simple fact that many Europas have flown many flying hours with no reported evidence of tailplane flutter. Wear and tear is a fact of engineering life and the current Mod 62 seems to be as good a design as any. Reports from the field suggest that with Mod 62 done properly, subsequent wear is minimal. Undoubtedly there are potentially better designs out there - hindsight is a wonderful thing. My other concern is that changing a reasonably good design could move the problem elsewhere - how much damage is being done by builders kneeling in the back end of their fuselages - the push/ pull tube is very vunerable and simply cant be removed. It seems more likely IMHO that there was a failure was due to the separation of one of the tailplanes for reasons which have already been discussed. Tailplane flutter may well have occurred when the tailplane disengaged the drive pins but this would not be attributable wear in the system. The PFA's current interest in the design of the pip pin recesses would lend weight to this possibility. Till we have the full findings of the AIIB we shouldnt be redesigning the aeroplane based on such limited evidence (I know the PFA have asked for our feedback on this). I would hope that before changing the design the PFA or Europa will conduct a survey amongst the current Europa fleet to establish if wear in the torque assembly (post Mod62) is a genuine problem or a myth. My understanding is that such a survey has not as yet been done - either by tha PFA or by the factory, though no doubt the recent sales figures of Mod 62 kits will give them a better idea. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Harrison" Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Article on flutter, now attached > Dear All > > Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us > distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF > and may be easier to read if you print it. > > The link to their website incidentally is: www.flyer.co.uk > > Willie Harrison > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > 

>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:04:03 AM PST US From: "Europa (Alfred Buess)" Subject: AW: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? Ralph Attached is a pdf-copy of the article you are looking for. Hope it helps. Regards, Alfred =A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8 =A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8 =A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8 =A8 =A8=A8=A8 Alfred Buess CH-3052 Zollikofen, Switzerland E-Mail: ykibuess@bluewin.ch Europa XS #097, Monowheel, Foam shortwing, Rotax 912S, Airmaster 332 CS -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Ralph K. Hallett III Gesendet: Montag, 25. Juni 2007 05:16 An: europa-list@matronics.com Betreff: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? --> There are probably many of us, like myself that never get the factory news letter. How do we get it? Or, could someone post the pip pin article? Ralph Reno, NV Jon Smith wrote: > Hi Bob, > Factory news letter number 21 seems to cover this in the tech talk, > page 14 entitled "torque tube". > Regards, Jon ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:33:23 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: tailplane balance Richard, It is critical that the centre of lift or pressure is on the axis or behind it for an all moving tail plane. If it is in front then any increase in incidence immediately produces a force trying to further increase that incidence. Such a system is highly unstable and would try to snatch the stick out of your hand! If it succeeds disaster inevitably follows. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Iddon" Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 11:35 PM Subject: Europa-List: tailplane balance > > At the expense of showing my ignorance, why is the tailplane balanced as > it is? i.e. with the pivot point well forward of the c of g which > necessitates a balancing weight. Could it not have been designed with > the pivot point at the position of the c of g so no weight would be > needed? > > Richard Iddon G-RIXS > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff B > Sent: 25 June 2007 22:25 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Article on flutter, now attached > > > It would be interesting to know just how much lead would be needed to > balance the tailplanes in this way... > > > 24/06/2007 08:33 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:33:23 AM PST US From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?= Subject: Europa-List: Popham fly-in Sue and Bill, I am planning to fly to Popham provided that we are not grounded by our authorities or the weather or both. Weather in UK and northern France has been awful for the last 2 or 3 weeks. Saturday is probably the best day to attend. I would be happy to chat with you and others. Regards Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours I am visiting the UK, staying in London for 4 weeks from 28th this month. Am planning to attend the PFA Weekend at Popham 7/8th July. Will there be any Europa builder/flyers there to chat to and which is the best day to attend. Regards Sue & Bill ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:35:01 AM PST US From: "Nigel Graham" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Hi Fred. The castellated nut is a standard AN part and was chosen because the split pins can be inspected visually at any time. Nylocks would work perfectly - but there is no guarantee that somebody would not re-use them and you cannot gauge the integrity by looking at them. I specified zinc passivated mild steel for both on the grounds that the coefficient of expansion is about the same as the TP4 and the risk of galvanic action is reduced. The truth is that you could probably make the discs out of an anodised alloy with no ill effects - and save weight into the bargain. Nigel -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: 26 June 2007 04:57 Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane flutter Nigel...very sweet (KISS) solution...one question: Why castellated nuts rather than nylocs? Also.. What material(s) did you use for your "discs" and "saddles"? Fred On Monday, June 25, 2007, at 03:29 AM, Nigel Graham wrote: > To support the torque tube and prevent it distorting, 15mm wide > cross-drilled discs are inserted into TP4 at each of the four stations. > To spread the clamping load over a larger surface, "saddle blocks" > (profiled > to mate with the OD of TP9 and TP12) are fitted under the bolt head and > castellated nut. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:04:19 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Flutter Carl Having flown around, at least for a short while, in a Europa with 1" of slop at the stab trailing edges (* see also below), without any sign of flutter, I tend to agree that slop of itself might not be a DIRECT cause of flutter in a Europa tailplane. However, could it have been an INDIRECT cause: would you not agree that increasing "wear" in the TP12/TP4 joint could lead to a TP6 failure (via undue torsional loads going through the pip pin)? Having said that, I am aware that we are speculating about really happened and why, although some very strong hints are emerging already (PFA's invitation to us to propose anti-wear joint designs, and the focus on the pip pin recess) * In my case, the slop was not due to wear but due to bad manufacture (he aircraft had total time of 12 hours when I bought it). If you can believe the paperwork, it had also been tested to Vne on two occasions in the previous 12 months when most or all of the 1" slop was present. Makes you think. Willie On 26 Jun 2007, at 08:53, Carl Pattinson wrote: > > > For what its worth, I believe the cause of this accident has > nothing to do with "wear" in the tailplane assemblies. I base my > "theory" on the simple fact that many Europas have flown many > flying hours with no reported evidence of tailplane flutter. > > Wear and tear is a fact of engineering life and the current Mod 62 > seems to be as good a design as any. Reports from the field > suggest that with Mod 62 done properly, subsequent wear is > minimal. Undoubtedly there are potentially better designs out > there - hindsight is a wonderful thing. > > My other concern is that changing a reasonably good design could > move the problem elsewhere - how much damage is being done by > builders kneeling in the back end of their fuselages - the push/ > pull tube is very vunerable and simply cant be removed. > > It seems more likely IMHO that there was a failure was due to the > separation of one of the tailplanes for reasons which have already > been discussed. Tailplane flutter may well have occurred when the > tailplane disengaged the drive pins but this would not be > attributable wear in the system. The PFA's current interest in the > design of the pip pin recesses would lend weight to this possibility. > > Till we have the full findings of the AIIB we shouldnt be > redesigning the aeroplane based on such limited evidence (I know > the PFA have asked for our feedback on this). > > I would hope that before changing the design the PFA or Europa will > conduct a survey amongst the current Europa fleet to establish if > wear in the torque assembly (post Mod62) is a genuine problem or a > myth. My understanding is that such a survey has not as yet been > done - either by tha PFA or by the factory, though no doubt the > recent sales figures of Mod 62 kits will give them a better idea. > > Carl Pattinson > G-LABS > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Harrison" > > To: > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 3:24 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Article on flutter, now attached > > >> Dear All >> >> Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us >> distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF >> and may be easier to read if you print it. >> >> The link to their website incidentally is: www.flyer.co.uk >> >> Willie Harrison >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > >> >> >> 

>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http:// 
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>>
> > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:18:05 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention Hi! Bill and Sue We can't help with things to do in London however should you venture "North of Watford" give us a call...... we have Kingsley Hurst and Janice with us for a couple of nights at present but with the weather as it's been they are sorry to not have brought their cossy's with them. Regards Bob and Jan Harrison G-PTAG North Lincolnshire. 01472 852498 do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill and Sue Sent: 26 June 2007 04:20 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention I am visiting the UK, staying in London for 4 weeks from 28th this month. Am planning to attend the PFA Weekend at Popham 7/8th July. Will there be any Europa builder/flyers there to chat to and which is the best day to attend. Regards Sue & Bill Mono XS 914 / Airmaster 580Hrs ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:48 AM PST US From: "Richard Collings" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery switch Hi again sorry my first email went wrong , look up www.flamingriver.com they have a range of switches that I think fit the bill . Regards Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fergus Kyle" Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 2:05 AM Subject: Europa-List: Battery switch > > Cheers, > I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for > battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps > dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor. > If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short > description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a > useful source. US or UK no problem. > Thanks, > Ferg > Europa Classic 914 mono > > > -- > 11:08 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:03:41 AM PST US From: "Michel AUVRAY" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention Hi Roger Sheridan, I like your solution, do you have a face picture, and/or drawing. Thanks Michel Auvray Builder 145 > 300 hours flight -----Message d'origine----- De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]De la part de Roger Sheridan Envoye : lundi 25 juin 2007 08:53 A : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Europa-List: Tailplane Retention > > Dear Forum/PFA/Europa, > > This mod has not been approved or tested and the photos are only of > a trial installation so please don't bother with too much negative > feedback - it wasn't even my idea originally! > > It does fit the tailplanes securely with no load transferred to the > internal bushes. > > I'm not proposing an alternative system, it's just an idea for > consideration by those who are reviewing the design of our > tailplane retention system. > > Brgds, > > Roger > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:08 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Flutter Im not saying we shouldnt be concerned about the amount of slop in the tailplanes. The PFA's current limit of 1/2 inch would seem to be reasonable. We checked ours last week - as soon as we recieved the PFA bulletins and found 3/8" movement between the tailplanes and a total of 5/8" movement when the counterbalance arm was locked against the top fuselage stop and both tailplanes moved up and down (hope that makes sense). Note - the second measurement is not a requirement of the original 1999 PFA bulletin though it goes on to say that no play is acceptable between TP04 an TP09. We promptly installed Mod 62 and have concluded that the original 1/4" pins had probably always been a loose fit - either due to poor manufacture or installation. Unfortunately 13 years ago when we were building the aircraft we didnt understand the implications of loose fitting pins. The aircraft had its annual in March and we did the dive to 150kts twice - once with Andy Draper at the controls and once with me. Im sure if anything had been amiss Andy would have noticed. We also did a series of stalls and incipient spins and again no problems were found. One point I would mention is that there is no official Annual Inspection checklist for the Europa fuselage (as far as I am aware) and I believe this issue should be addressed. The current regime relies on the owner and inspectors vigilance in noticing defects and potential problems. Some inspectors will have more experience with Europa related issues and others less so. And before anyone jumps to conclusions, I should make it clear that Andy Draper did not conduct the annual inspection - only the test flight. The annual inspection was none the less a thorough one. So the business of tailplane flutter is a bit of a mystery. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Harrison" Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 10:02 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Flutter > > > Carl > > Having flown around, at least for a short while, in a Europa with 1" of > slop at the stab trailing edges (* see also below), without any sign of > flutter, I tend to agree that slop of itself might not be a DIRECT cause > of flutter in a Europa tailplane. However, could it have been an > INDIRECT cause: would you not agree that increasing "wear" in the > TP12/TP4 joint could lead to a TP6 failure (via undue torsional loads > going through the pip pin)? Having said that, I am aware that we are > speculating about really happened and why, although some very strong > hints are emerging already (PFA's invitation to us to propose anti-wear > joint designs, and the focus on the pip pin recess) > > * In my case, the slop was not due to wear but due to bad manufacture (he > aircraft had total time of 12 hours when I bought it). If you can believe > the paperwork, it had also been tested to Vne on two occasions in the > previous 12 months when most or all of the 1" slop was present. Makes you > think. > > Willie > > > On 26 Jun 2007, at 08:53, Carl Pattinson wrote: > >> >> >> For what its worth, I believe the cause of this accident has nothing to >> do with "wear" in the tailplane assemblies. I base my "theory" on the >> simple fact that many Europas have flown many flying hours with no >> reported evidence of tailplane flutter. >> >> Wear and tear is a fact of engineering life and the current Mod 62 seems >> to be as good a design as any. Reports from the field suggest that with >> Mod 62 done properly, subsequent wear is minimal. Undoubtedly there are >> potentially better designs out there - hindsight is a wonderful thing. >> >> My other concern is that changing a reasonably good design could move >> the problem elsewhere - how much damage is being done by builders >> kneeling in the back end of their fuselages - the push/ pull tube is >> very vunerable and simply cant be removed. >> >> It seems more likely IMHO that there was a failure was due to the >> separation of one of the tailplanes for reasons which have already been >> discussed. Tailplane flutter may well have occurred when the tailplane >> disengaged the drive pins but this would not be attributable wear in the >> system. The PFA's current interest in the design of the pip pin recesses >> would lend weight to this possibility. >> >> Till we have the full findings of the AIIB we shouldnt be redesigning >> the aeroplane based on such limited evidence (I know the PFA have asked >> for our feedback on this). >> >> I would hope that before changing the design the PFA or Europa will >> conduct a survey amongst the current Europa fleet to establish if wear >> in the torque assembly (post Mod62) is a genuine problem or a myth. My >> understanding is that such a survey has not as yet been done - either by >> tha PFA or by the factory, though no doubt the recent sales figures of >> Mod 62 kits will give them a better idea. >> >> Carl Pattinson >> G-LABS >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Harrison" >> >> To: >> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 3:24 PM >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Article on flutter, now attached >> >> >>> Dear All >>> >>> Many thanks to Martin Le Poidevin at Flyer Magazine for letting us >>> distribute the article on flutter, which is now attached. It is PDF >>> and may be easier to read if you print it. >>> >>> The link to their website incidentally is: www.flyer.co.uk >>> >>> Willie Harrison >>> >>> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---------- >> >> >>> >>> >>> 

>>>
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http:// 
>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>
>>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:39 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention Maybe I should go back to making wetsuits for a living! Are you flooded over there? Graham R.C.Harrison wrote: > > Hi! Bill and Sue > We can't help with things to do in London however should you venture > "North of Watford" give us a call...... we have Kingsley Hurst and > Janice with us for a couple of nights at present but with the weather as > it's been they are sorry to not have brought their cossy's with them. > Regards > Bob and Jan Harrison G-PTAG North Lincolnshire. > 01472 852498 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:12 AM PST US From: "Tony Wickens" Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane Balance I am not moved to write often but just to add my two cents worth. Almost everything we are saying is based on supposition regarding, in particular, the tragic accident to Williams Europa. There has naturally been much speculation, particularly after the early mention of flutter as a possible cause. As with all accidents there were probably a number of mutually divergent occurancies which led to the eventual loss of control but I am waiting for the AAIB to give their findings as it would appear that a preliminary report is imminent. Making reference to comments in recent e-mails If the tailplane balance weights were placed in the leading edge of each tailplane you would end up with about four times the weight of the present TP19's (200mm arm as opposed to the 800mm at present). I don't have access to the TP19's at the moment but they are heavy and four times heavy is very heavy, and this would obviously be undesirable in weight and C of G terms. However it is probably correct that the mono is slightly more prone to shock loading at the pin securing the TP12. Although the 'system' is balanced, the tailplane is itself tail heavy, and on landing and over rough ground this couple is resisted mainly by the TP12 pins. A similar situation occurs of course with the balance weight arm at TP9 and its two pins TP14C. Pronounced pitching on the close coupled Trike gear on a rough surface would cause similar forces. Taxi-ing at slower speeds is desireable for this and many other reasons. All design is a compromise but obviously if the balance weights were in the leading edge of the tailplane then it would avoid the above situation and each tailplane would be individually balanced as the ailerons are on the Europa. I suspect that in the original design this option was discarded in the interests of weight saving, and bearing in mind the arm length, from a weight and balance point of view. I think there is a lot of truth in what you are hinting at. Us trigear jockeys are having to pay dearly for shortcomings in the mono. I don't think comments such as those above are very helpful. All design is a compromise and the Europa was designed around a unique set of operational objectives which is why so many of us bought Europa kits. It is different to other taildraggers and requires slight modifications to standard taildragger technique as does the Pitts Special and some other more demanding aircraft. It is the only kit to have multi configuration which allows people to make a personal choice depending on their preferences. As I said at the beginning lets wait for the results of the investigation before jumping to dubious judgments. Tony ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:26 AM PST US From: "Ralph K. Hallett III" Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? Alfred, Thank you very much. Ralph Europa (Alfred Buess) wrote: > Ralph > > Attached is a pdf-copy of the article you are looking for. Hope it helps. > > Regards, > Alfred > > > Alfred Buess > CH-3052 Zollikofen, Switzerland > E-Mail: ykibuess@bluewin.ch > Europa XS #097, Monowheel, Foam shortwing, Rotax 912S, Airmaster 332 CS > > > -----Ursprngliche Nachricht----- > Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Ralph K. > Hallett III > Gesendet: Montag, 25. Juni 2007 05:16 > An: europa-list@matronics.com > Betreff: Re: Europa-List: Extension of outboard Tailplane pip pin holes? > > --> > > There are probably many of us, like myself that never get the factory news > letter. How do we get it? Or, could someone post the pip pin article? > Ralph > Reno, NV > > Jon Smith wrote: > >> Hi Bob, >> Factory news letter number 21 seems to cover this in the tech talk, >> page 14 entitled "torque tube". >> Regards, Jon >> ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:26 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type In a message dated 6/26/2007 2:59:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list@matronics.com writes: At this time, we don't know that any wear (if it was actually present) did cause the flutter. The AAIB/PFA may decide that the evidence shows that it did but they haven't, to my knowledge, announced that yet. Please don't missunderstand me, I am all for improving the integrity of the Europa tailplane system but let's base the discussion on known facts rather than guesses. Mark, I'm not guessing about anything here. The purpose of the question I posed was entirely aimed at obtaining facts about whether or not there anyone had noticed a correlation between torque tube wear and landing gear type, not to guess whether or not tailplane flutter caused the accident. It's the PFA that is all hot and bothered about associating pitch system wear and tailplane flutter, not me. It's the PFA that has issued documents that infer a link to sloppiness in the pitch system to tailplane flutter based on a single, isolated incident, and the notion (or guess if you will) that tailplane flutter is what caused the crash, not me. It's the PFA that seems to be the one that is doing the guessing here, not me. All I did was read the documents the PFA released regarding this incident and, based on their commentary, asked a legitimate question about whether anyone had noticed a correlation between landing gear type and torque tube wear. Although it seems like an obvious question to me, judging by the responses thus far, apparently no one has bothered to look for a correlation. If Europa 04 keeps records on who they've sold Mod 62 kits to and what kind of landing gear the aircraft uses, it would be easy to see if the wear on the torque tube(s) is more prevalent in mono's, trigears or neither. Since the PFA seems to be suggesting (guessing) that wear in the pitch system possibly lead to tailplane flutter which resulted in the recent crash in the UK, it stands to reason that the PFA would want to isolate those aircraft where the wear is more likely to occur, if indeed wear is more prevalent in one type of landing gear as opposed to another and if sloppiness in the pitch system lead to tailplane flutter and if that flutter caused the crash. If indeed this is the case, the focus of any corrective action should be directed where it is most needed. What the PFA has done so far is the scatter-gun approach. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:36 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type Hey guys, were on the same side - arent we? The PFA are on our side too in case anyone thought otherwise! I agree they are doing a lot of guessing but at least its educated as opposed to the speculation that has been going on in this forum (and I include myself in that category). Its understandable that we all want answers but taking exception at what someone has said is pointless and unecessary. It would be better if we all shut up and waited till the AIIB publishes its findings but that aint going to happen - is it? ----- Original Message ----- From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 3:31 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type In a message dated 6/26/2007 2:59:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list@matronics.com writes: At this time, we don't know that any wear (if it was actually present) did cause the flutter. The AAIB/PFA may decide that the evidence shows that it did but they haven't, to my knowledge, announced that yet. Please don't missunderstand me, I am all for improving the integrity of the Europa tailplane system but let's base the discussion on known facts rather than guesses. Mark, I'm not guessing about anything here. The purpose of the question I posed was entirely aimed at obtaining facts about whether or not there anyone had noticed a correlation between torque tube wear and landing gear type, not to guess whether or not tailplane flutter caused the accident. It's the PFA that is all hot and bothered about associating pitch system wear and tailplane flutter, not me. It's the PFA that has issued documents that infer a link to sloppiness in the pitch system to tailplane flutter based on a single, isolated incident, and the notion (or guess if you will) that tailplane flutter is what caused the crash, not me. It's the PFA that seems to be the one that is doing the guessing here, not me. All I did was read the documents the PFA released regarding this incident and, based on their commentary, asked a legitimate question about whether anyone had noticed a correlation between landing gear type and torque tube wear. Although it seems like an obvious question to me, judging by the responses thus far, apparently no one has bothered to look for a correlation. If Europa 04 keeps records on who they've sold Mod 62 kits to and what kind of landing gear the aircraft uses, it would be easy to see if the wear on the torque tube(s) is more prevalent in mono's, trigears or neither. Since the PFA seems to be suggesting (guessing) that wear in the pitch system possibly lead to tailplane flutter which resulted in the recent crash in the UK, it stands to reason that the PFA would want to isolate those aircraft where the wear is more likely to occur, if indeed wear is more prevalent in one type of landing gear as opposed to another and if sloppiness in the pitch system lead to tailplane flutter and if that flutter caused the crash. If indeed this is the case, the focus of any corrective action should be directed where it is most needed. What the PFA has done so far is the scatter-gun approach. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:37 AM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Balance In a message dated 6/26/2007 5:37:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, tonywickens@btconnect.com writes: It is different to other taildraggers and requires slight modifications to standard taildragger technique as does the Pitts Special and some other more demanding aircraft. Good Day Tony, If you have specific knowledge with regard to the Europa I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on this sentence. I have flown only Citabrias for my tailwheel transition and am building my Europa with a conventional setup. I was just wondering what adjustments I might have to make. Thanks in advance. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:09 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Hole Enlongation vs. Landing Gear Type John It is a fair question, but we'd need to be careful in interpreting the answer - Monos tend to be older and more home-crafted than tris so you'd have to disentangle those factors from any possible direct link between slop and undercarriage configuration. Incidentally, a senior bod at the PFA told one of our colleagues earlier this week that "We may never know the full story". We may be stuck therefore with having to adopt the scatter gun approach to ensuring the integrity of our aircraft. Willie Harrison G-BZNY (passed all its FSB 006 checks today. Popham here we come...) On 26 Jun 2007, at 15:31, TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/26/2007 2:59:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > europa-list@matronics.com writes: > At this time, we don't know that any wear (if it was actually > present) did cause > the flutter. The AAIB/PFA may decide that the evidence shows that > it did but > they haven't, to my knowledge, announced that yet. > > Please don't missunderstand me, I am all for improving the > integrity of the Europa > tailplane system but let's base the discussion on known facts > rather than > guesses. > > Mark, > I'm not guessing about anything here. The purpose of the question I > posed was entirely aimed at obtaining facts about whether or not > there anyone had noticed a correlation between torque tube wear and > landing gear type, not to guess whether or not tailplane flutter > caused the accident. It's the PFA that is all hot and bothered > about associating pitch system wear and tailplane flutter, not me. > It's the PFA that has issued documents that infer a link to > sloppiness in the pitch system to tailplane flutter based on a > single, isolated incident, and the notion (or guess if you will) > that tailplane flutter is what caused the crash, not me. It's the > PFA that seems to be the one that is doing the guessing here, not > me. All I did was read the documents the PFA released regarding > this incident and, based on their commentary, asked a legitimate > question about whether anyone had noticed a correlation between > landing gear type and torque tube wear. Although it seems like an > obvious question to me, judging by the responses thus far, > apparently no one has bothered to look for a correlation. > > If Europa 04 keeps records on who they've sold Mod 62 kits to and > what kind of landing gear the aircraft uses, it would be easy to > see if the wear on the torque tube(s) is more prevalent in mono's, > trigears or neither. Since the PFA seems to be suggesting > (guessing) that wear in the pitch system possibly lead to tailplane > flutter which resulted in the recent crash in the UK, it stands to > reason that the PFA would want to isolate those aircraft where the > wear is more likely to occur, if indeed wear is more prevalent in > one type of landing gear as opposed to another and if sloppiness in > the pitch system lead to tailplane flutter and if that flutter > caused the crash. If indeed this is the case, the focus of any > corrective action should be directed where it is most needed. What > the PFA has done so far is the scatter-gun approach. > > > Regards, > > John Lawton > Whitwell, TN (TN89) > N245E - Flying > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:37 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention Hello Bill Mine (G-BZNY) is un-grounded again having passed its FSB 006 checks today. I'll see if I can negotiate a Permit to Fly from Higher Authority (SWMBO) to go to Popham. Who knows, Summer might even put in an appearance. Regards Willie On 26 Jun 2007, at 04:19, Bill and Sue wrote: > > > I am visiting the UK, staying in London for 4 weeks from 28th this > month. > > Am planning to attend the PFA Weekend at Popham 7/8th July. > > Will there be any Europa builder/flyers there to chat to and which > is the best day to attend. > > Regards > > Sue & Bill > > Mono XS > 914 / Airmaster > 580Hrs > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:05 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention Hi! Graham No we aren't flooded since we are about 300ft above sea level. However Roger Cullum and family had to stay with us last night and tonight since his house has 1ft of water in it. Never mind wet suits ....a device to make water run up hill would be sure to make a bloody fortune ! G'day Mate! Bob Harrison G-PTAG Do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: 26 June 2007 13:23 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention Maybe I should go back to making wetsuits for a living! Are you flooded over there? Graham ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:43 PM PST US From: "Tony Wickens" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Balance Hi Mike I was only referring to the Pitts as an aircraft that required just a little more training for anyone new to the type as does the Europa. I am personally not familiar with the Citabria although from what I have read that experience will be more than adequate. In the UK the PFA instituted a coaching scheme where experienced pilots are cleared to give conversion training on specific aircraft. This has worked well over here and I believe is very popular with the insurance companies. In fact I think they make such training a condition of cover. I am still building but also have a share in a monowheel and had conversion training as mentioned above. The airplane is a delight to fly but a bit more demanding on landing. I found the most difficult thing to get used to was the power and sensitivity of the elevator after other taildragers that I have flown. Having said that it is not difficult to get used to and of course it is vital to use the rudder to keep straight until the aircraft stops as is the case with all taildraggers. Hard runways are a little more testing than grass in terms of keeping straight but again this is not too demanding. I agree with the people who wisely advise to limit the cross winds building up your personal limits gradually, particularly on hard runways. Take offs are easy, holding the tail on the ground until aerodynamic aileron control is established. It is IMNSHO the best handling kit aircraft and a delight to fly and tour in. Like all aircraft types one needs to fully understand them, and as the late Tommy Sopwith so aptly put it "make friends with them". Best advice I would give is find a good coach or instructor but one experienced on the Europa and spend a few hours, four or five is not too many, until you feel comfortable with the aircraft and then very slowly expand your own envelope. The level of coach over here is very high, in fact the person that converted me was a Royal Air Force test pilot and is now a test pilot with Airbus, although they come from all backgrounds and I am sure there are many such people in California. I would think Kim Prout would be an excellent source of knowledge although California is very big and he may not live close to you. I should add that I am not a professional pilot, I am a professional engineer, now retired but I have been flying taildraggers mainly since 1959 with a beak of about 20 years when I couldn't afford to rent airplanes. So if I can fly the Europa I am sure anyone can. Regards Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: DuaneFamly@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Balance In a message dated 6/26/2007 5:37:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, tonywickens@btconnect.com writes: It is different to other taildraggers and requires slight modifications to standard taildragger technique as does the Pitts Special and some other more demanding aircraft. Good Day Tony, If you have specific knowledge with regard to the Europa I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on this sentence. I have flown only Citabrias for my tailwheel transition and am building my Europa with a conventional setup. I was just wondering what adjustments I might have to make. Thanks in advance. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:28 PM PST US From: "Laptop JR" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention Bob Well Kingslely and Jan sure get around! Best Wishes to you all from far off and cold Oz. JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "R.C.Harrison" Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 7:17 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention > > Hi! Bill and Sue > We can't help with things to do in London however should you venture > "North of Watford" give us a call...... we have Kingsley Hurst and > Janice with us for a couple of nights at present but with the weather as > it's been they are sorry to not have brought their cossy's with them. > Regards > Bob and Jan Harrison G-PTAG North Lincolnshire. > 01472 852498 > do not archive. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill and > Sue > Sent: 26 June 2007 04:20 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention > > > I am visiting the UK, staying in London for 4 weeks from 28th this > month. > > Am planning to attend the PFA Weekend at Popham 7/8th July. > > Will there be any Europa builder/flyers there to chat to and which is > the best day to attend. > > Regards > > Sue & Bill > > Mono XS > 914 / Airmaster > 580Hrs > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.