---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/29/07: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:42 AM - Re: Fuel filters (Carl Pattinson) 2. 01:38 AM - Rubber Fuel Pipe. (R.C.Harrison) 3. 02:08 AM - Re: Tailplane Recess (karelvranken) 4. 06:30 AM - Re: tailplane (JEFF ROBERTS) 5. 07:13 AM - Safety Data (Brian Davies) 6. 07:16 AM - Re: tailplane (Europa List) 7. 07:44 AM - NTSB Crash Report (rampil) 8. 07:45 AM - Tailplane design (Europa List) 9. 08:39 AM - Re: tailplane (karelvranken) 10. 09:14 AM - Re: Tailplane design (Brian Davies) 11. 09:32 AM - Re: Fuel filters (Terry Seaver (terrys)) 12. 10:14 AM - Re: Tailplane design (Europa List) 13. 01:25 PM - Anyone going to Oshkosh? (ALAN YERLY) 14. 01:54 PM - Re: Fuel filters (Fred Klein) 15. 02:33 PM - Re: Anyone going to Oshkosh? (Steve Pitt) 16. 02:44 PM - Re: Anyone going to Oshkosh? (Brian Davies) 17. 03:51 PM - Re: Anyone going to Oshkosh? (rlborger) 18. 04:20 PM - Re: tailplane (Graham Singleton) 19. 05:16 PM - Re: Tailplane Recess (Graham Singleton) 20. 05:51 PM - Re: Tailplane design (Tony Wickens) 21. 08:03 PM - Re: Tailplane design (Europa List) 22. 08:05 PM - Belt and Braces (Galluses really) (Fergus Kyle) 23. 10:37 PM - Re: Safety Data (R.C.Harrison) 24. 11:43 PM - Re: Safety Data (Brian Davies) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:48 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters A gascolator has a water trap built into the bottom of the filter housing. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Klein" Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 12:58 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters > > I have never been clear on the difference (if any) between a filter and > a gascolator...could someone please enlighten me? > > Fred > > On Thursday, June 28, 2007, at 04:27 PM, Graham Singleton wrote: > >> >> >> Raimo >> the best filter imho is an Andair gascolator. Easy to check for >> contamination before every flight, which used to be routine. >> I do not like the Purolator filters. Easily broken, easily assembled >> wrong and easily blocked by debrie. >> Grahm >> >> Raimo Toivio wrote: >>> All >>> I have in OH-XRT original Purolator-filters as per manual. >>> During the very first flight (about 10 hrs) I had an engine quit >>> situation /fuel pressure >>> was near 0 and that was at the height of 4000 ft - so no dramatic at >>> all. >>> Switching reserve and fuel pump and Rotax was happy again. >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses and >> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is >> believed to be clean. >> > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:38 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: Europa-List: Rubber Fuel Pipe. Hi! Thomas. I think you had a "narrow squeak"! Just for the record I should remind you that Europa recommended all such fuel pipe distributed with their kits be changed at 5 years, which means that by the time you built the kit it was almost time expired, if it had carried fuel for any length of time. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG - Original Message ----- From: Thomas Scherer Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 6:58 AM Subject: Europa-List: N81EU incident - the culprit Hi All, today I can report with confidence that the reason for the power loss in N81EU on Feb 24 was fuel starvation. I had changed the fuel filter on the main-line the day before the incident and as you can see on this photograph: culprit the fuel line was worn (10 year old factory supplied original). One strand of the tube did get into the fuel filter inlet and restricted fuel flow. I had sufficient fuel in the line for the take-off roll, yet during the early part of the climb-out the engine quit. ~~~~~~~~ I shall later report on the moments right after that and the sequence of the forced landing. Would like to discuss it with Kim Prout though first to make it more authoritative. be well - safe Landings Robt.C.Harrison ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:27 AM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Recess Graham, When I was reading how the holes must be drilled through the TP6 and TP4 for the pip pins on the bench with a friend looking at 90 for correct position, I knew that it was practically impossible to ream the burrs at the underside. At the same time drilling first through SS TP6 with a cobalt drill means that you need directly to apply a certain force to have grip otherwise the drill would slide. This would result in all but perfect straight pip pins in all but perfect holes. So, before laying up the cloth on the tailplanes my holes were drilled and reamed. The recesses of 3 x bid were made and floxed to the rib, the TP6 and the foam. Even small pipes were glued at the underside to drain eventual captured water before the final lay ups. Didn't you have the impression of bad amaturisme when executing following the manuel? Best regards, Karel Vranken # 447 F-PKRL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 12:41 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Recess > > > Tim > Is it really cold in Christchurch? Cold in UK right now! I reckon all the > 747 vapour trails are reflecting heat out and helping to cool the planet! > > I admit to trying to guess what Andy is thinking but my understanding is > that the object of the proposed exercise is to prevent the pip pin from > pulling through the tailplane structure and uncoupling the drive pins. > This is just a back up in case of failure of the TP6 bush bonding. > > I was puzzled by the insistence on a "Minimum" area of BID lay up fore and > aft. However this will be more difficult to pull through the foam core ( > and the skin) than the cylindrical structure many of us have built. The > PFA amendment also insists on a flox corner with the skin, no doubt for > the same reason. > Open to correction? > Any comment Nev? > Graham ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:36 AM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: tailplane What's the XL2? Have I missed something coming down the pike from Europa? Jeff Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 80 hours and climbing slowly. On Jun 28, 2007, at 10:34 AM, danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk wrote: > > > Hi All, Just been reading an article in the August Flyer. > "Ivan Shaw flying from Dubai to Doncaster" and I wondered if the XL2 > has the same set up for the elevators (tailplane) as our Europa's. Are > the elevators composite or metal? It would be interesting to know if > they changed it, and what changes, if any. > > Just a thought > > Danny G-c.e.r.i > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:09 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: Europa-List: Safety Data The safety data including selected NTSB and AAIB reports are now available in the members only area of the Euopa Club website. Brian Davies, membership sec. do not archive 17:57 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:23 AM PST US From: "Europa List" Subject: Re: Europa-List: tailplane Liberty XL2 ----- Original Message ----- From: "JEFF ROBERTS" Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 9:28 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: tailplane > > What's the XL2? Have I missed something coming down the pike from > Europa? > Jeff > Jeff R. > A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 80 hours and climbing slowly. > > On Jun 28, 2007, at 10:34 AM, danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk wrote: > >> >> >> Hi All, Just been reading an article in the August Flyer. >> "Ivan Shaw flying from Dubai to Doncaster" and I wondered if the XL2 >> has the same set up for the elevators (tailplane) as our Europa's. Are >> the elevators composite or metal? It would be interesting to know if >> they changed it, and what changes, if any. >> >> Just a thought >> >> Danny G-c.e.r.i >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:36 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: NTSB Crash Report From: "rampil" This finally popped up on the NTSB server this morning: By the way, all the Europa crashes in the US have their reports freely accessible at http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp Just type europa in the Make/Model box NTSB Identification: LAX07LA148 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Saturday, June 16, 2007 in Livermore, CA Aircraft: Hill Europa XS, registration: N214KS Injuries: 2 Fatal. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On June 16, 2007, about 0830 Pacific daylight time, an experimental Hill Europa XS, N214KS, made a 180-degree turn and collided with terrain during the initial climb from Livermore Municipal Airport, Livermore, California. The pilot, who was the owner and builder, was operating the airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The commercial pilot and pilot-rated passenger were fatally injured. The airplane was destroyed. The local personal flight was originating from Livermore, with a planned destination of the Yosemite, California, area. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and a flight plan had not been filed. Family members of the pilot reported that the purpose of the flight was for it to terminate at an airport around Yosemite, where both occupants planned to spend the day. They intended to be back in Livermore about 1830. The airplane was assumed to be configured at the time of the accident with full fuel in the internal tank and one external fuel tank [a plastic container located just aft of the internal fuel tank and behind the pilot seats]. The National Transportation Safety Board investigator-in-charge (IIC) gathered witness statements and conducted telephone interviews. One witness, who was a certificated flight instructor (CFI), stated that the morning of the accident he was planning to give instruction to a student. He was intending to perform an instrument flight rules (IFR) departure and recalled that, about 0830, he was holding short of runway 25R awaiting an IFR clearance. While sitting in the run-up area, he noticed a white low-wing experimental airplane being cleared for takeoff. The airplane departed and the air traffic control subsequently cleared the CFI to take position on the runway and hold. The CFI further stated that he aligned his airplane with the runway centerline and looked for the departed airplane ahead. He observed the airplane reach about 400 above ground level (agl) while approaching the end of the runway, passing the identifier marking 7L. The airplane then sunk about 100 feet in a level attitude. He noticed the airplane was to the north of the runway centerline (right side), and as it reached about 300 feet agl, it made a hard left turn. The airplane continued to descend and reverse course. As the airplane came close to completing a 180-degree turn, the nose dove toward terrain. The airplane impacted in a near-vertical attitude and erupted into flames. Additional witnesses recalled the accident airplane departing and reaching between 200 to 400 feet agl. They observed it make a left turn and dive toward terrain. Some pilot-witnesses stated that they thought the airplane had stalled through the turn. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121209#121209 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:24 AM PST US From: "Europa List" Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane design The person that started my kit did not have faith in the tail plane design, nor do I. He designed and built a pinned clamping system that fits inside the fuselage that would prevent any play from developing due to wear. I don't feel that the retention between TP-4 and Tp-6 tubes to be adequate because of the thin wall. If any play at all was present at assembly, it seems that the slight movement would increase the size of the holes to where it became excessive. I've attached a PDF file ofwhat I would like to do to change it, but am not sure that it can be done with 100% realiability. Maybe there are some engineers out there that can. The 3/8" modification has not been done, so the idea of drilling out slightly smaller than 3/8" and driving increasingly larger pins through to expand the holes to 3/8" while work hardening them seems to be my other recourse. BTW, my old Sears garden tractor used the same method of attaching the front axle to the frame as the present system of a pin through thin walled metal and assembly that had worn so badly in one year that it was hard to steer and impossible to mow evenly. I took the axle off and had a tube welded in it and collars welded to the frame and was able to get 8 years of satifactory service from it until the motor gave up. I have pictures of the clamp collars made and installed in my kit by the previous builder if anyone is interested. Vaughn Teegarden N914VA - no progress ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:01 AM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: tailplane Hi All, We met Ivan at Friedrichshafens Aero 2007. He there represented the XL. He said: "When I was young I was in a hurry to design the Europa; but this (XL or Liberty) is by comparison to cars a Volvo." I thought I was flying a Rolls Royce! Even a handmade one. Karel Vranken, #447 F-PKRL ----- Original Message ----- From: "JEFF ROBERTS" Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 3:28 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: tailplane > > What's the XL2? Have I missed something coming down the pike from Europa? > Jeff > Jeff R. > A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 80 hours and climbing slowly. > > On Jun 28, 2007, at 10:34 AM, danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk wrote: > >> >> >> Hi All, Just been reading an article in the August Flyer. "Ivan >> Shaw flying from Dubai to Doncaster" and I wondered if the XL2 has the >> same set up for the elevators (tailplane) as our Europa's. Are the >> elevators composite or metal? It would be interesting to know if they >> changed it, and what changes, if any. >> >> Just a thought >> >> Danny G-c.e.r.i >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:36 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane design Vaughn, Are you sure you mean TP6 retention? My understanding is that a tight fit at TP6 is not desireable because it can transfer loads to TP6 if there is play at other points in the sytem and this can lead to TP6 disbonding from the tail plane. Your method may be more appropriate at the TP12/ TP14 locations, which is, I suspect what you really meant. Regards Brian Davies _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Europa List Sent: 29 June 2007 15:45 Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane design The person that started my kit did not have faith in the tail plane design, nor do I. He designed and built a pinned clamping system that fits inside the fuselage that would prevent any play from developing due to wear. I don't feel that the retention between TP-4 and Tp-6 tubes to be adequate because of the thin wall. If any play at all was present at assembly, it seems that the slight movement would increase the size of the holes to where it became excessive. I've attached a PDF file ofwhat I would like to do to change it, but am not sure that it can be done with 100% realiability. Maybe there are some engineers out there that can. The 3/8" modification has not been done, so the idea of drilling out slightly smaller than 3/8" and driving increasingly larger pins through to expand the holes to 3/8" while work hardening them seems to be my other recourse. BTW, my old Sears garden tractor used the same method of attaching the front axle to the frame as the present system of a pin through thin walled metal and assembly that had worn so badly in one year that it was hard to steer and impossible to mow evenly. I took the axle off and had a tube welded in it and collars welded to the frame and was able to get 8 years of satifactory service from it until the motor gave up. I have pictures of the clamp collars made and installed in my kit by the previous builder if anyone is interested. Vaughn Teegarden N914VA - no progress 17:57 17:57 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:06 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel filters From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" Hi Fred, The glass filters supplied with our kit had had some reported problems, plugging up with tank residue (swarf) and with cracks in the glass. It occurred to us that the glass filters would trap and hold tank residue up against the filter material, plugging it up, with gravity helping to hold it there. The Andair gascolator, on the other hand, has a water trap at the bottom of it and a fine mesh screen at the top. Not only does water settle to the bottom, but also particles heavier than gasoline. We did a simple test with fuel tank swarf, and found it was heavier than gas, and settled to the bottom of the gascolator, where it can be drained out on the next pre-flight check for water. Please note that gravity helps keep the particles out of the screen of a gascolator, unlike the glass filters supplied with the kit. Regards, Terry Seaver A135 / N135TD -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters I have never been clear on the difference (if any) between a filter and a gascolator...could someone please enlighten me? Fred On Thursday, June 28, 2007, at 04:27 PM, Graham Singleton wrote: > > > Raimo > the best filter imho is an Andair gascolator. Easy to check for > contamination before every flight, which used to be routine. > I do not like the Purolator filters. Easily broken, easily assembled > wrong and easily blocked by debrie. > Grahm > > Raimo Toivio wrote: >> All >> I have in OH-XRT original Purolator-filters as per manual. >> During the very first flight (about 10 hrs) I had an engine quit >> situation /fuel pressure was near 0 and that was at the height of >> 4000 ft - so no dramatic at all. >> Switching reserve and fuel pump and Rotax was happy again. >> > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:15 AM PST US From: "Europa List" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane design No Brian, I was off on a stupid binge which was thankfully stopped by your comment. Never mind. Sometimes too much thinking leads me to fruitless thinking and time wasted on my part. N914VA ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Davies To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 12:13 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane design Vaughn, Are you sure you mean TP6 retention? My understanding is that a tight fit at TP6 is not desireable because it can transfer loads to TP6 if there is play at other points in the sytem and this can lead to TP6 disbonding from the tail plane. Your method may be more appropriate at the TP12/ TP14 locations, which is, I suspect what you really meant. Regards Brian Davies ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Europa List Sent: 29 June 2007 15:45 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane design The person that started my kit did not have faith in the tail plane design, nor do I. He designed and built a pinned clamping system that fits inside the fuselage that would prevent any play from developing due to wear. I don't feel that the retention between TP-4 and Tp-6 tubes to be adequate because of the thin wall. If any play at all was present at assembly, it seems that the slight movement would increase the size of the holes to where it became excessive. I've attached a PDF file ofwhat I would like to do to change it, but am not sure that it can be done with 100% realiability. Maybe there are some engineers out there that can. The 3/8" modification has not been done, so the idea of drilling out slightly smaller than 3/8" and driving increasingly larger pins through to expand the holes to 3/8" while work hardening them seems to be my other recourse. BTW, my old Sears garden tractor used the same method of attaching the front axle to the frame as the present system of a pin through thin walled metal and assembly that had worn so badly in one year that it was hard to steer and impossible to mow evenly. I took the axle off and had a tube welded in it and collars welded to the frame and was able to get 8 years of satifactory service from it until the motor gave up. I have pictures of the clamp collars made and installed in my kit by the previous builder if anyone is interested. Vaughn Teegarden N914VA - no progress AVG Free Date: 28/06/2007 17:57 28/06/2007 17:57 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:47 PM PST US From: "ALAN YERLY" Subject: Europa-List: Anyone going to Oshkosh? Europa Owners, I will be hosting a Europa Forum on Thursday the 26th of July from 4:00 - 5:15 P.M. at Pavilion 1 for all Europa Owners and intersted parties. My thanks to Jim Butcher and others who have helped me to come show the flag and share what news I have as the new distributor for Europa. I will close my shop and join you to answer any questions on how the company is doing and any questions on construction, as I have had the opportunity to help a few of you from construction thru flight test. So please, bring your questions, pictures and war stories to share. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations US Europa Distributor and fellow owner. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters From: Fred Klein Thanks Terry, As a consequence of previous posts which highlight the problems caused by swarf from the penetrations one makes in the tank(s), I've been particularly careful in this regard. For example, besides using the hole drill by drilling up into the tank which prevents most of the swarf from remaining inside, I've carefully peered into the tank thru the intake hole and the hole made for the Europa fuel gauge and located even the tiniest particles...then...using some reversed duct tape on the end of a small aluminum tube, I've found that I can pick them up with no trouble. I found that the swarf particles were plainly visable against the smoothe tank bottom. When drilling for the intake and vent holes in the long ranger tank, I inserted a cut down 8 oz. paper cup with a bent wire handle thru the large filler hole and placed it under the holes which caught all of the swarf...again, use of the duct tape on a stick allowed me to remove particles down to the size of dust. Now I know we can only strive for perfection, but thanks to being alerted to swarf-in-fuel issues by all who've gone before me, I'm confident (knock on wood) that swarf will not be an issue for me when I finally get this puppy in the air. Since I'm installing Mod 33, I'm tending toward installing line filters rather than a gascolator...and I appreciate your thoughts on the subject. Fred On Friday, June 29, 2007, at 09:31 AM, Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote: > > > Hi Fred, > > The glass filters supplied with our kit had had some reported problems, > plugging up with tank residue (swarf) and with cracks in the glass. It > occurred to us that the glass filters would trap and hold tank residue > up against the filter material, plugging it up, with gravity helping to > hold it there. > > The Andair gascolator, on the other hand, has a water trap at the > bottom > of it and a fine mesh screen at the top. Not only does water settle to > the bottom, but also particles heavier than gasoline. We did a simple > test with fuel tank swarf, and found it was heavier than gas, and > settled to the bottom of the gascolator, where it can be drained out on > the next pre-flight check for water. Please note that gravity helps > keep the particles out of the screen of a gascolator, unlike the glass > filters supplied with the kit. > > Regards, > Terry Seaver > A135 / N135TD > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 4:59 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters > > > I have never been clear on the difference (if any) between a filter and > a gascolator...could someone please enlighten me? > > Fred > > On Thursday, June 28, 2007, at 04:27 PM, Graham Singleton wrote: > >> >> >> Raimo >> the best filter imho is an Andair gascolator. Easy to check for >> contamination before every flight, which used to be routine. >> I do not like the Purolator filters. Easily broken, easily assembled >> wrong and easily blocked by debrie. >> Grahm >> >> Raimo Toivio wrote: >>> All >>> I have in OH-XRT original Purolator-filters as per manual. >>> During the very first flight (about 10 hrs) I had an engine quit >>> situation /fuel pressure was near 0 and that was at the height of >>> 4000 ft - so no dramatic at all. >>> Switching reserve and fuel pump and Rotax was happy again. >>> >> > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:18 PM PST US From: "Steve Pitt" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone going to Oshkosh? Bud, Regrettably I cannot attend Oshkosh this year but I wish you well with the show and look forward to hearing good news from your side of the pond. Regards Steve Pitt ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:10 PM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Anyone going to Oshkosh? Hi Bud, I hope to be there on that day. I look forward to meeting you. Best regards Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec. _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY Sent: 29 June 2007 21:23 Subject: Europa-List: Anyone going to Oshkosh? Europa Owners, I will be hosting a Europa Forum on Thursday the 26th of July from 4:00 - 5:15 P.M. at Pavilion 1 for all Europa Owners and intersted parties. My thanks to Jim Butcher and others who have helped me to come show the flag and share what news I have as the new distributor for Europa. I will close my shop and join you to answer any questions on how the company is doing and any questions on construction, as I have had the opportunity to help a few of you from construction thru flight test. So please, bring your questions, pictures and war stories to share. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations US Europa Distributor and fellow owner. "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Europa-List 17:57 17:57 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:21 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Anyone going to Oshkosh? From: rlborger Bud & other Europaphiles, I will be attending Oshkosh this year. Unfortunately, not flying N914XL as it won't quite be ready. I will plan on attending your Europa Forum. Where will other folks be meeting during the show? Good building and great flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, except for testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). Airmaster Prop installed. Electrical complete, except for testing. Fuel system complete except for testing. Working in - 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived and is being installed. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:23 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: tailplane Karel The Liberty is a bit like a Europa with diluted testosterone. The FAA and the accountants messed with the design and it shows Graham karelvranken wrote: > > > Hi All, > We met Ivan at Friedrichshafens Aero 2007. He there represented the XL. > He said: "When I was young I was in a hurry to design the Europa; > but this (XL or Liberty) is by comparison to cars a Volvo." > I thought I was flying a Rolls Royce! Even a handmade one. > Karel Vranken, #447 F-PKRL ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:45 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Recess Karel yes I do. the engineering could have been done better. We have to remember though, Ivan was under a lot of pressure to get the whole design finished and sell some kits to start earning some money. Paying wages for three years with nothing coming in is quite scary. I have learned to accept Ivan for his strengths and forgive his shortcomings, without people like Ivan things like the Europa don't happen.I know I could not have done what he did, the Europa has given a lot of people a lot of pleasure. The rest of us can help each other to refine it and make it even more rewarding Graham karelvranken wrote: > Didn't you have the impression > of bad amaturisme when executing following the manuel? > Best regards, > Karel Vranken # 447 F-PKRL ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:58 PM PST US From: "Tony Wickens" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane design Vaughn It would certainly have more bearing surface which is good but if you do mean TP12 how would you get it through the TP11 bearing? Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Davies To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 5:13 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane design Vaughn, Are you sure you mean TP6 retention? My understanding is that a tight fit at TP6 is not desireable because it can transfer loads to TP6 if there is play at other points in the sytem and this can lead to TP6 disbonding from the tail plane. Your method may be more appropriate at the TP12/ TP14 locations, which is, I suspect what you really meant. Regards Brian Davies ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Europa List Sent: 29 June 2007 15:45 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane design The person that started my kit did not have faith in the tail plane design, nor do I. He designed and built a pinned clamping system that fits inside the fuselage that would prevent any play from developing due to wear. I don't feel that the retention between TP-4 and Tp-6 tubes to be adequate because of the thin wall. If any play at all was present at assembly, it seems that the slight movement would increase the size of the holes to where it became excessive. I've attached a PDF file ofwhat I would like to do to change it, but am not sure that it can be done with 100% realiability. Maybe there are some engineers out there that can. The 3/8" modification has not been done, so the idea of drilling out slightly smaller than 3/8" and driving increasingly larger pins through to expand the holes to 3/8" while work hardening them seems to be my other recourse. BTW, my old Sears garden tractor used the same method of attaching the front axle to the frame as the present system of a pin through thin walled metal and assembly that had worn so badly in one year that it was hard to steer and impossible to mow evenly. I took the axle off and had a tube welded in it and collars welded to the frame and was able to get 8 years of satifactory service from it until the motor gave up. I have pictures of the clamp collars made and installed in my kit by the previous builder if anyone is interested. Vaughn Teegarden N914VA - no progress AVG Free Date: 28/06/2007 17:57 28/06/2007 17:57 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:51 PM PST US From: "Europa List" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane design No, I was refering to TP-4 And TP-6, but I was totally wrong in my thinking. Ther is no need to even continue the discussion. I am embarassed by my stupidity at times, this being one of them. Vaughn ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Wickens To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:50 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane design Vaughn It would certainly have more bearing surface which is good but if you do mean TP12 how would you get it through the TP11 bearing? Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Davies To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 5:13 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane design Vaughn, Are you sure you mean TP6 retention? My understanding is that a tight fit at TP6 is not desireable because it can transfer loads to TP6 if there is play at other points in the sytem and this can lead to TP6 disbonding from the tail plane. Your method may be more appropriate at the TP12/ TP14 locations, which is, I suspect what you really meant. Regards Brian Davies ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Europa List Sent: 29 June 2007 15:45 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane design The person that started my kit did not have faith in the tail plane design, nor do I. He designed and built a pinned clamping system that fits inside the fuselage that would prevent any play from developing due to wear. I don't feel that the retention between TP-4 and Tp-6 tubes to be adequate because of the thin wall. If any play at all was present at assembly, it seems that the slight movement would increase the size of the holes to where it became excessive. I've attached a PDF file ofwhat I would like to do to change it, but am not sure that it can be done with 100% realiability. Maybe there are some engineers out there that can. The 3/8" modification has not been done, so the idea of drilling out slightly smaller than 3/8" and driving increasingly larger pins through to expand the holes to 3/8" while work hardening them seems to be my other recourse. BTW, my old Sears garden tractor used the same method of attaching the front axle to the frame as the present system of a pin through thin walled metal and assembly that had worn so badly in one year that it was hard to steer and impossible to mow evenly. I took the axle off and had a tube welded in it and collars welded to the frame and was able to get 8 years of satifactory service from it until the motor gave up. I have pictures of the clamp collars made and installed in my kit by the previous builder if anyone is interested. Vaughn Teegarden N914VA - no progress AVG Free Date: 28/06/2007 17:57 28/06/2007 17:57 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:39 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Belt and Braces (Galluses really) The question oif gascolator/filters comes up regularly. Both the Stearman and the Hartvard/SNJ/T-6 series had both. The water drains are at the bottom of each tank. The gascolator is at the bottom of the engine bay - last item before the carb. It is routine to check each before every flight - although if at a training facility, the tanks are water-checked only after each fuelling. The explanation given is that the water-drains check for stored water in the tanks (over-night or whatever), whereas the gascolator is checked for every flight should foreign material be left or incurred in the fuel system downstream. Anyway, thass my story. And I have both. Ferg ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:24 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety Data Hi! Brian Please give me a pointer where ? Regards Bob H Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Davies Sent: 29 June 2007 15:12 Subject: Europa-List: Safety Data The safety data including selected NTSB and AAIB reports are now available in the members only area of the Euopa Club website. Brian Davies, membership sec. do not archive 17:57 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:34 PM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety Data Hi Bob, Go to the members only area on the website www.europaclub.org.uk and it is the last item on the list of data available to members. Oh, and before anybody asks why this is only available in the members only area, we get a lot of very strange people accessing our site and we dont really want a detailed list of all of our worst moments available to them. Brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison Sent: 30 June 2007 06:36 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety Data --> Hi! Brian Please give me a pointer where ? Regards Bob H Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Davies Sent: 29 June 2007 15:12 Subject: Europa-List: Safety Data The safety data including selected NTSB and AAIB reports are now available in the members only area of the Euopa Club website. Brian Davies, membership sec. do not archive 17:57 17:57 17:57 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.