Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:18 AM - Re: Safety Data (William Harrison)
2. 01:18 AM - Re: Tailplane Recess (William Harrison)
3. 04:14 AM - Re: Missing Oil (William Williams Wynne)
4. 06:09 AM - Re: Safety Data (R.C.Harrison)
5. 07:12 AM - Re: Fuel filters (Steve Hagar)
6. 07:17 AM - Re: Tailplane Recess (Fred Klein)
7. 07:51 AM - Re: Fuel filters (Fred Klein)
8. 08:09 AM - Re: Fuel filters (Jeff B)
9. 08:18 AM - Re: Fuel filters (Steve Pitt)
10. 08:48 AM - Re: Fuel filters (josok)
11. 09:01 AM - Re: Tailplane Recess (karelvranken)
12. 09:18 AM - Re: Fuel filters (Carl Pattinson)
13. 09:31 AM - Europa Club member login details (Carl Pattinson)
14. 09:44 AM - Re: Europa Club member login details (Alan Burrows)
15. 10:39 AM - Fuel filters (Fred Klein)
16. 10:43 AM - Fuel venting (Fred Klein)
17. 11:09 AM - Re: Fuel filters (Carl Pattinson)
18. 11:17 AM - Re: [PHISH] Re: Fuel filters (Paul Atkinson)
19. 11:18 AM - Re: Fuel filters (Carl Pattinson)
20. 11:28 AM - Re: Fuel filters (Carl Pattinson)
21. 11:30 AM - Re: Europa Club member login details (Simon Smith)
22. 11:33 AM - Re: Fuel filters (Carl Pattinson)
23. 11:55 AM - FW: Fuel venting (Ivor Phillips)
24. 12:13 PM - Re: Fuel filters (Peter Timm)
25. 12:31 PM - Re: Fuel filters (Carl Pattinson)
26. 12:37 PM - Re: Fuel filters (Fred Klein)
27. 01:06 PM - Re: Fuel filters (Carl Pattinson)
28. 01:32 PM - Re: Fuel filters (Steve Hagar)
29. 01:39 PM - Re: Fuel filters (Peter Timm)
30. 01:59 PM - Re: Fuel filters (Paul McAllister)
31. 02:50 PM - Re: Fuel filters (Fred Klein)
32. 02:51 PM - Re: Fuel filters (Fred Klein)
33. 06:05 PM - Re: Anyone going to Oshkosh? (John & Paddy Wigney)
34. 11:32 PM - Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
35. 11:38 PM - Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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Same question from me, Brian.
Willie Harrison
On 30 Jun 2007, at 18:57, Alan Burrows wrote:
> insurance.com>
>
> How do I get access to the members only area of the website. Where
> do I get
> the user ID from?
>
> Alan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
> Davies
> Sent: 30 June 2007 07:42
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety Data
>
> <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> Go to the members only area on the website www.europaclub.org.uk
> and it is
> the last item on the list of data available to members.
>
> Oh, and before anybody asks why this is only available in the
> members only
> area, we get a lot of very strange people accessing our site and we
> dont
> really want a detailed list of all of our worst moments available
> to them.
>
> Brian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> R.C.Harrison
> Sent: 30 June 2007 06:36
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety Data
>
> --> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Brian
> Please give me a pointer where ?
> Regards
> Bob H
>
> Robt.C.Harrison
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
> Davies
> Sent: 29 June 2007 15:12
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Safety Data
>
> The safety data including selected NTSB and AAIB reports are now
> available
> in the members only area of the Euopa Club website.
>
> Brian Davies, membership sec.
>
> do not archive
>
> 17:57
>
>
> 17:57
>
>
> 17:57
>
>
> 17:57
>
>
> 14:15
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Recess |
There's a piece by Ivan in August's edition of Flyer, describing a
recent trip in a Liberty around the Middle East and then across
Europe to the UK. Although entirely lacking in vanity, his piece
shows he is something of a legend.
Its just a real shame he and Europa didn't stick together long enough
to push through the sort of continuous refinement that, say, the RV
range has had. What he did do however was so good that owners and
builders have been able to pick up where he left off.
Willie Harrison
G-BZNY
On 1 Jul 2007, at 00:26, Laptop JR wrote:
> <jrgowing@bigpond.net.au>
>
> And I add my
>
> "well spoken" to Neils and Graham -
>
> very few have drive and ability to do what Ivan Shaw has
> accomplished!
>
Message 3
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It's still hissing with rain here - why didn't Ivan design a seaplane? - so
stuck in the office with only my dreams I thought I'd do something useful.
I am sure they could use your support. Bill
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/save-flying-at-kemble-airfield.html
Message 4
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Hi! Willie H /Alan B.
You need to register with the Europa Club web page members section and
log the pass word of your choice. I'd think there is a link page which
allows you to do just that.
Regards
Bob Harrison
Do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Harrison
Sent: 01 July 2007 09:17
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety Data
<willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
Same question from me, Brian.
Willie Harrison
On 30 Jun 2007, at 18:57, Alan Burrows wrote:
> insurance.com>
>
> How do I get access to the members only area of the website. Where
> do I get
> the user ID from?
>
> Alan
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
Fred:
No matter how good you clean your tank and system you can't clean it good
enough. I spent days and days. Soap, water. multiple flushes with
gasoline, compressed air, vacuuming etc. I felt fat and happy also with
my process, nothing remotely visible or blowing around inside the tank.
Several hours of taxi and runup, compass swing time etc. before first
flight The engine burbled on the go part on a touch and go and the plane
ended up in a big mud puddle off the end of the runway just short of the
airport boundary and a 4 lane toroughfare. This happened at about 4 hours
flight time.
Solution: 2 BIG disposable automotive fuel filters downstream of your fuel
selector valve. Throw them away before first flight. Fly 2 hours with new
ones. Then go for 10. Then you can make believe you are on top of the
situation. You can get Fram's at discount stores for about 8 bucks each.
They are about 2 inches in diameter and 4 inches or so long, so there is
plenty of surface area inside.
Steve Hagar
A143
Mesa AZ
> [Oyou can'triginal Message]
> From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 6/29/2007 1:58:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters
>
>
> Thanks Terry,
>
> As a consequence of previous posts which highlight the problems caused
> by swarf from the penetrations one makes in the tank(s), I've been
> particularly careful in this regard. For example, besides using the
> hole drill by drilling up into the tank which prevents most of the
> swarf from remaining inside, I've carefully peered into the tank thru
> the intake hole and the hole made for the Europa fuel gauge and located
> even the tiniest particles...then...using some reversed duct tape on
> the end of a small aluminum tube, I've found that I can pick them up
> with no trouble. I found that the swarf particles were plainly visable
> against the smoothe tank bottom. When drilling for the intake and vent
> holes in the long ranger tank, I inserted a cut down 8 oz. paper cup
> with a bent wire handle thru the large filler hole and placed it under
> the holes which caught all of the swarf...again, use of the duct tape
> on a stick allowed me to remove particles down to the size of dust. Now
> I know we can only strive for perfection, but thanks to being alerted
> to swarf-in-fuel issues by all who've gone before me, I'm confident
> (knock on wood) that swarf will not be an issue for me when I finally
> get this puppy in the air.
>
> Since I'm installing Mod 33, I'm tending toward installing line filters
> rather than a gascolator...and I appreciate your thoughts on the
> subject.
>
> Fred
>
> On Friday, June 29, 2007, at 09:31 AM, Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote:
>
> > <terrys@cisco.com>
> >
> > Hi Fred,
> >
> > The glass filters supplied with our kit had had some reported problems,
> > plugging up with tank residue (swarf) and with cracks in the glass. It
> > occurred to us that the glass filters would trap and hold tank residue
> > up against the filter material, plugging it up, with gravity helping to
> > hold it there.
> >
> > The Andair gascolator, on the other hand, has a water trap at the
> > bottom
> > of it and a fine mesh screen at the top. Not only does water settle to
> > the bottom, but also particles heavier than gasoline. We did a simple
> > test with fuel tank swarf, and found it was heavier than gas, and
> > settled to the bottom of the gascolator, where it can be drained out on
> > the next pre-flight check for water. Please note that gravity helps
> > keep the particles out of the screen of a gascolator, unlike the glass
> > filters supplied with the kit.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Terry Seaver
> > A135 / N135TD
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
> > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 4:59 PM
> > To: europa-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters
> >
> >
> > I have never been clear on the difference (if any) between a filter and
> > a gascolator...could someone please enlighten me?
> >
> > Fred
> >
> > On Thursday, June 28, 2007, at 04:27 PM, Graham Singleton wrote:
> >
> >> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
> >>
> >> Raimo
> >> the best filter imho is an Andair gascolator. Easy to check for
> >> contamination before every flight, which used to be routine.
> >> I do not like the Purolator filters. Easily broken, easily assembled
> >> wrong and easily blocked by debrie.
> >> Grahm
> >>
> >> Raimo Toivio wrote:
> >>> All
> >>> I have in OH-XRT original Purolator-filters as per manual.
> >>> During the very first flight (about 10 hrs) I had an engine quit
> >>> situation /fuel pressure was near 0 and that was at the height of
> >>> 4000 ft - so no dramatic at all.
> >>> Switching reserve and fuel pump and Rotax was happy again.
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > This message has been scanned for viruses and
> > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> > believed to be clean.
> >
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Recess |
On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 01:16 AM, William Harrison wrote:
> Its just a real shame he and Europa didn't stick together long enough
> to push through the sort of continuous refinement that, say, the RV
> range has had. What he did do however was so good that owners and
> builders have been able to pick up where he left off.
It's always been a mystery to me how the company evolved from the
vision and accomplishments of Ivan into the chicanery of Keith Wilson.
Some historical perspective from someone who has some knowledge on the
subject, including the spin-off of the XS from the XL would be much
appreciated.
Fred
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
Steve...thanks so much for staying on this topic...everytime I reread
my original post, it sounds cockier and cockier, much to my chagrin. I
take it that your "burble" was found to have been caused by tank debris
(?).
Do you still have the Europa filters upstream of the selector? Could
you explain your reasoning for putting the Frams downstream of the
selector?
Fred
On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 07:19 AM, Steve Hagar wrote:
> <hagargs@earthlink.net>
>
> No matter how good you clean your tank and system you can't clean it
> good
> enough. I spent days and days. Soap, water. multiple flushes with
> gasoline, compressed air, vacuuming etc. I felt fat and happy also
> with
> my process, nothing remotely visible or blowing around inside the
> tank.
> Several hours of taxi and runup, compass swing time etc. before first
> flight The engine burbled on the go part on a touch and go and the
> plane
> ended up in a big mud puddle off the end of the runway just short of
> the
> airport boundary and a 4 lane toroughfare. This happened at about 4
> hours
> flight time.
>
> Solution: 2 BIG disposable automotive fuel filters downstream of your
> fuel
> selector valve. Throw them away before first flight. Fly 2 hours
> with new
> ones. Then go for 10. Then you can make believe you are on top of
> the
> situation. You can get Fram's at discount stores for about 8 bucks
> each.
> They are about 2 inches in diameter and 4 inches or so long, so there
> is
> plenty of surface area inside.
>
> Steve Hagar
> A143
> Mesa AZ
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
Fred, Steve and all,
My experience was slightly different. I used standard auto filters for
engine run in and first flight. Tossed them after first hour in the
air. Next set was a duplicate of the first. Tossed them after 5
hours. thire set was the same. Replaced them with Europa units at 25
hours. Never had a fuel starvation problem, though the first couple of
sets did show some mild restriction. Here's the kicker, after cutting
the tank holes, using a standard hole saw, I used compressed air to blow
out the tank and that was it. Never experienced any swarf problem. Go
figure...
Jeff - Baby Blue
299 hours and going to put #300 on it today, before trailering her home
for her 2nd annual. How times flies (forgive the pun)...
Steve Hagar wrote:
>
> Fred:
>
> No matter how good you clean your tank and system you can't clean it good
> enough. I spent days and days. Soap, water. multiple flushes with
> gasoline, compressed air, vacuuming etc. I felt fat and happy also with
> my process, nothing remotely visible or blowing around inside the tank.
> Several hours of taxi and runup, compass swing time etc. before first
> flight The engine burbled on the go part on a touch and go and the plane
> ended up in a big mud puddle off the end of the runway just short of the
> airport boundary and a 4 lane toroughfare. This happened at about 4 hours
> flight time.
>
> Solution: 2 BIG disposable automotive fuel filters downstream of your fuel
> selector valve. Throw them away before first flight. Fly 2 hours with new
> ones. Then go for 10. Then you can make believe you are on top of the
> situation. You can get Fram's at discount stores for about 8 bucks each.
> They are about 2 inches in diameter and 4 inches or so long, so there is
> plenty of surface area inside.
>
> Steve Hagar
> A143
> Mesa AZ
>
>
>
>> [Oyou can'triginal Message]
>> From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
>> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>> Date: 6/29/2007 1:58:41 PM
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters
>>
>>
>> Thanks Terry,
>>
>> As a consequence of previous posts which highlight the problems caused
>> by swarf from the penetrations one makes in the tank(s), I've been
>> particularly careful in this regard. For example, besides using the
>> hole drill by drilling up into the tank which prevents most of the
>> swarf from remaining inside, I've carefully peered into the tank thru
>> the intake hole and the hole made for the Europa fuel gauge and located
>> even the tiniest particles...then...using some reversed duct tape on
>> the end of a small aluminum tube, I've found that I can pick them up
>> with no trouble. I found that the swarf particles were plainly visable
>> against the smoothe tank bottom. When drilling for the intake and vent
>> holes in the long ranger tank, I inserted a cut down 8 oz. paper cup
>> with a bent wire handle thru the large filler hole and placed it under
>> the holes which caught all of the swarf...again, use of the duct tape
>> on a stick allowed me to remove particles down to the size of dust. Now
>> I know we can only strive for perfection, but thanks to being alerted
>> to swarf-in-fuel issues by all who've gone before me, I'm confident
>> (knock on wood) that swarf will not be an issue for me when I finally
>> get this puppy in the air.
>>
>> Since I'm installing Mod 33, I'm tending toward installing line filters
>> rather than a gascolator...and I appreciate your thoughts on the
>> subject.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>> On Friday, June 29, 2007, at 09:31 AM, Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote:
>>
>>
>>> <terrys@cisco.com>
>>>
>>> Hi Fred,
>>>
>>> The glass filters supplied with our kit had had some reported problems,
>>> plugging up with tank residue (swarf) and with cracks in the glass. It
>>> occurred to us that the glass filters would trap and hold tank residue
>>> up against the filter material, plugging it up, with gravity helping to
>>> hold it there.
>>>
>>> The Andair gascolator, on the other hand, has a water trap at the
>>> bottom
>>> of it and a fine mesh screen at the top. Not only does water settle to
>>> the bottom, but also particles heavier than gasoline. We did a simple
>>> test with fuel tank swarf, and found it was heavier than gas, and
>>> settled to the bottom of the gascolator, where it can be drained out on
>>> the next pre-flight check for water. Please note that gravity helps
>>> keep the particles out of the screen of a gascolator, unlike the glass
>>> filters supplied with the kit.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Terry Seaver
>>> A135 / N135TD
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 4:59 PM
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters
>>>
>>>
>>> I have never been clear on the difference (if any) between a filter and
>>> a gascolator...could someone please enlighten me?
>>>
>>> Fred
>>>
>>> On Thursday, June 28, 2007, at 04:27 PM, Graham Singleton wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>>>>
>>>> Raimo
>>>> the best filter imho is an Andair gascolator. Easy to check for
>>>> contamination before every flight, which used to be routine.
>>>> I do not like the Purolator filters. Easily broken, easily assembled
>>>> wrong and easily blocked by debrie.
>>>> Grahm
>>>>
>>>> Raimo Toivio wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All
>>>>> I have in OH-XRT original Purolator-filters as per manual.
>>>>> During the very first flight (about 10 hrs) I had an engine quit
>>>>> situation /fuel pressure was near 0 and that was at the height of
>>>>> 4000 ft - so no dramatic at all.
>>>>> Switching reserve and fuel pump and Rotax was happy again.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> This message has been scanned for viruses and
>>> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
>>> believed to be clean.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
Fred,
The purolator filters do work and it is worth sticking with them.
I had exactly the problems recorded elsewhere on the list and having read
about the issue before first flight I ensured that I bought a stack of
refills before we got going. Yes the filters clogged in the test flying
despite all the preflight flushing I had done.
Over the first 25 hours the filters got cleaner and cleaner (or at least did
not clog as quickly). Now upto 50 hours and I have replaced the filters
again but only for sense rather than as they were blocked. I had used the
same filters for the last 15 hours without a problem.
My Test Pilot advised to keep the reserve filter unused (don't taxi with the
reserve line on, as per the manual) and then you know you have a clean
source of fuel if needed. I have only once had to change to the reserve and
that was in the first 10 hours when the debris was still being removed.
I hope this helps.
Regards
Steve Pitt
G-SMDH
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
There has been written a lot, and there has been fuel starvation maybe even more.
So it's difficult not to start repeating the same writeups and mistakes. The
tank material is very static. I saw a dog hair jumping to it over 10 cm. Compressed
air will make it more static. Nev told me to use washing machine soap,
and i rinsed with that. I went for an Andair 325 gascolator, for several reasons:
The filter surface is huge, the larger parts will sink in the bowl and not
clog precious filter surface, the filter has quite a different colour then swarf
from the tank.
I've filled the tank for 95%, driven the plane on the trailer for 400 miles (up
and down to the painter,not just for filter testing:-)) with a fuel pump running
(914, no restrictor) in which 480 liters or 7xtimes the contents of the tank
have passed the filter. 4 hrs engine run and taxiing. Checked the filter. The
filter surface was 95 % free. Hardly any tank swarf, some rust particles, some
unrecognised stuff and one dog hair. Now that test flights may begin, i will
swap the filter again after every hour of flight for the first 10 hours! Better
be warned then sorry or how was that saying again?.
Regards,
Jos
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane Recess |
Graham,
I completely agree with your opinion and I highly estimate Ivan for the
dream he gave to me. I hope to show you my Rolls Royce Europa some day.
Perhaps in Popham next week-end? When the weather .....
Karel Vranken, # 447 F-PKRL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 2:18 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Recess
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> Karel
> yes I do. the engineering could have been done better. We have to remember
> though, Ivan was under a lot of pressure to get the whole design finished
> and sell some kits to start earning some money. Paying wages for three
> years with nothing coming in is quite scary. I have learned to accept Ivan
> for his strengths and forgive his shortcomings, without people like Ivan
> things like the Europa don't happen.I know I could not have done what he
> did, the Europa has given a lot of people a lot of pleasure. The rest of
> us can help each other to refine it and make it even more rewarding
> Graham
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
It seems that this is an area where gascolators score over fuel filters.
Our gascolator is a cheap aviation kit type filter with a metal bowl and
drain valve at the bottom. The fine gauze filter is a flat mesh circle
in the top of the unit. The fuel enters through the bottom of the
chamber and leaves through the top.
Before every flight a fuel sample is drained from the gascolator using a
standard fuel test tube/ screwdriver. There is usually a small amount of
debry in the sample but never very much. If necessary several samples
are taken to flush out excessive deposits but this is rarely the case.
In the first year the gascolator was dismantled about every ten hours
and the gauze filter was found to be dirty but never clogged. It would
seem that most of the muck is drained off and never makes it to the
filter.
One precaution we have always taken is to filter the fuel into the fuel
tank using a proprietary filter/ water trap funnel (anti static too).
Another thing which may have lessened the dirt problem is that we pre
filled the tank prior to installation in the aircraft because the early
tanks swelled and caused problems. If there was any debry due to
manufacture this would have been removed when the tank was drained.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff B
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters
Fred, Steve and all,
My experience was slightly different. I used standard auto filters
for engine run in and first flight. Tossed them after first hour in the
air. Next set was a duplicate of the first. Tossed them after 5 hours.
thire set was the same. Replaced them with Europa units at 25 hours.
Never had a fuel starvation problem, though the first couple of sets did
show some mild restriction. Here's the kicker, after cutting the tank
holes, using a standard hole saw, I used compressed air to blow out the
tank and that was it. Never experienced any swarf problem. Go
figure...
Jeff - Baby Blue
299 hours and going to put #300 on it today, before trailering her
home for her 2nd annual. How times flies (forgive the pun)...
Steve Hagar wrote:
Fred:
No matter how good you clean your tank and system you can't clean it
good
enough. I spent days and days. Soap, water. multiple flushes with
gasoline, compressed air, vacuuming etc. I felt fat and happy also
with
my process, nothing remotely visible or blowing around inside the tank.
Several hours of taxi and runup, compass swing time etc. before first
flight The engine burbled on the go part on a touch and go and the
plane
ended up in a big mud puddle off the end of the runway just short of the
airport boundary and a 4 lane toroughfare. This happened at about 4
hours
flight time.
Solution: 2 BIG disposable automotive fuel filters downstream of your
fuel
selector valve. Throw them away before first flight. Fly 2 hours with
new
ones. Then go for 10. Then you can make believe you are on top of
the
situation. You can get Fram's at discount stores for about 8 bucks
each.
They are about 2 inches in diameter and 4 inches or so long, so there
is
plenty of surface area inside.
Steve Hagar
A143
Mesa AZ
[Oyou can'triginal Message]
From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters
Thanks Terry,
As a consequence of previous posts which highlight the problems caused
by swarf from the penetrations one makes in the tank(s), I've been
particularly careful in this regard. For example, besides using the
hole drill by drilling up into the tank which prevents most of the
swarf from remaining inside, I've carefully peered into the tank thru
the intake hole and the hole made for the Europa fuel gauge and located
even the tiniest particles...then...using some reversed duct tape on
the end of a small aluminum tube, I've found that I can pick them up
with no trouble. I found that the swarf particles were plainly visable
against the smoothe tank bottom. When drilling for the intake and vent
holes in the long ranger tank, I inserted a cut down 8 oz. paper cup
with a bent wire handle thru the large filler hole and placed it under
the holes which caught all of the swarf...again, use of the duct tape
on a stick allowed me to remove particles down to the size of dust. Now
I know we can only strive for perfection, but thanks to being alerted
to swarf-in-fuel issues by all who've gone before me, I'm confident
(knock on wood) that swarf will not be an issue for me when I finally
get this puppy in the air.
Since I'm installing Mod 33, I'm tending toward installing line filters
rather than a gascolator...and I appreciate your thoughts on the
subject.
Fred
On Friday, June 29, 2007, at 09:31 AM, Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote:
<terrys@cisco.com>
Hi Fred,
The glass filters supplied with our kit had had some reported problems,
plugging up with tank residue (swarf) and with cracks in the glass. It
occurred to us that the glass filters would trap and hold tank residue
up against the filter material, plugging it up, with gravity helping to
hold it there.
The Andair gascolator, on the other hand, has a water trap at the
bottom
of it and a fine mesh screen at the top. Not only does water settle to
the bottom, but also particles heavier than gasoline. We did a simple
test with fuel tank swarf, and found it was heavier than gas, and
settled to the bottom of the gascolator, where it can be drained out on
the next pre-flight check for water. Please note that gravity helps
keep the particles out of the screen of a gascolator, unlike the glass
filters supplied with the kit.
Regards,
Terry Seaver
A135 / N135TD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters
I have never been clear on the difference (if any) between a filter and
a gascolator...could someone please enlighten me?
Fred
On Thursday, June 28, 2007, at 04:27 PM, Graham Singleton wrote:
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Raimo
the best filter imho is an Andair gascolator. Easy to check for
contamination before every flight, which used to be routine.
I do not like the Purolator filters. Easily broken, easily assembled
wrong and easily blocked by debrie.
Grahm
Raimo Toivio wrote:
All
I have in OH-XRT original Purolator-filters as per manual.
During the very first flight (about 10 hrs) I had an engine quit
situation /fuel pressure was near 0 and that was at the height of
4000 ft - so no dramatic at all.
Switching reserve and fuel pump and Rotax was happy again.
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Europa Club member login details |
If there is a link page on the Europa Club website I would like to know
where to find it.
I have looked - but maybe im not looking hard enough.
Carl Pattinson
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:06 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety Data
>
> Hi! Willie H /Alan B.
> You need to register with the Europa Club web page members section and
> log the pass word of your choice. I'd think there is a link page which
> allows you to do just that.
>
> Regards
> Bob Harrison
>
> Do not archive.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
> Harrison
> Sent: 01 July 2007 09:17
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety Data
>
> <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
>
> Same question from me, Brian.
>
> Willie Harrison
>
>
> On 30 Jun 2007, at 18:57, Alan Burrows wrote:
>
>> insurance.com>
>>
>> How do I get access to the members only area of the website. Where
>> do I get
>> the user ID from?
>>
>> Alan
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Europa Club member login details |
Sounds like there are a few of us out here that are not aware of a members
only section and how to get onto it.
How about someone "in authority" explaining just how we do it ???
Many Thanks
Alan Burrows
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson
Sent: 01 July 2007 17:31
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Club member login details
<carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
If there is a link page on the Europa Club website I would like to know
where to find it.
I have looked - but maybe im not looking hard enough.
Carl Pattinson
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:06 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety Data
>
> Hi! Willie H /Alan B.
> You need to register with the Europa Club web page members section and
> log the pass word of your choice. I'd think there is a link page which
> allows you to do just that.
>
> Regards
> Bob Harrison
>
> Do not archive.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
> Harrison
> Sent: 01 July 2007 09:17
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety Data
>
> <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
>
> Same question from me, Brian.
>
> Willie Harrison
>
>
> On 30 Jun 2007, at 18:57, Alan Burrows wrote:
>
>> insurance.com>
>>
>> How do I get access to the members only area of the website. Where
>> do I get
>> the user ID from?
>>
>> Alan
>
>
>
15:10
15:10
Message 15
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On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 09:17 AM, Carl Pattinson wrote:
> Our gascolator is a cheap aviation kit type filter with a metal bowl
> and drain valve at the bottom. The fine gauze filter is a flat mesh
> circle in the top of the unit. The fuel enters through the bottom of
> the chamber and leaves through the top.
Carl,
I note in Acft. Spruce Cat. that the only "aviation kit type filter" is
not recommended for auto fuel; do you recall the name brand and model #
of what you're using?
Fred
Message 16
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|
I understand that some builders have vented the tank and the sight
gauge to the top of the fuel filler pipe, taking care that the precise
location will not allow fuel being added to inadvertantly flow into the
vents. What I don't understand is...using the supplied fuel filler cap
(which is specifically called out as "non-venting", again in the ACS
catalogue)...how such an arrangement in fact can act to vent the fuel
system.
Can anyone enlighten me?
Fred
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
Sorry, but I dont think it was branded - I bought it from a company
called Skycraft here in the UK. I just looked in the 2003-2004 Spruce
catalog and there is an ACS Gascolator (Homebuilders Special). Ours
looks identical including the mounting bracket. And YES its the one that
says not for use with auto fuel !!!!
All I can say is that we use exclusively automotive unleaded fuel in
ours and have done so for 5 years with no problems. We cant/ dont use
leaded or 100LL because the oil we use in our Rotax 912UL is fully
synthetic.
One thing we would suggest is the fitment of a fuel pressure guage,
preferably with an electronic warning if the pressure falls below 2psi.
That will give you an early warning if your filters are clogging up.
Ours is wired into the auxilliary input of the EIS.
Its a tricky one - dont know why they say dont use with auto fuel -
dosent make sense. I guess you will have to ask them.
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Klein
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 6:37 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel filters
On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 09:17 AM, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Our gascolator is a cheap aviation kit type filter with a metal bowl
and drain valve at the bottom. The fine gauze filter is a flat mesh
circle in the top of the unit. The fuel enters through the bottom of the
chamber and leaves through the top.
Carl,
I note in Acft. Spruce Cat. that the only "aviation kit type filter"
is not recommended for auto fuel; do you recall the name brand and model
# of what you're using?
Fred
--> http://forums.matronics.com
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
Steve
It does. Could I trouble you with a few practical questions....
How do you avoid spilling fuel inside the aeroplane when you change
filters, and is it easy to tell visually when they are contaminated? Did
you change them after each flight in the early stages or did you develop a
sense of when was a good time to change them based on what they looked
like?
Thanks
Paul Atkinson
On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 16:16:59 +0100, Steve Pitt <steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> <steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com>
>
> Fred,
> The purolator filters do work and it is worth sticking with them.
> I had exactly the problems recorded elsewhere on the list and having
> read about the issue before first flight I ensured that I bought a stack
> of refills before we got going. Yes the filters clogged in the test
> flying despite all the preflight flushing I had done.
> Over the first 25 hours the filters got cleaner and cleaner (or at least
> did not clog as quickly). Now upto 50 hours and I have replaced the
> filters again but only for sense rather than as they were blocked. I had
> used the same filters for the last 15 hours without a problem.
> My Test Pilot advised to keep the reserve filter unused (don't taxi with
> the reserve line on, as per the manual) and then you know you have a
> clean source of fuel if needed. I have only once had to change to the
> reserve and that was in the first 10 hours when the debris was still
> being removed.
> I hope this helps.
> Regards
> Steve Pitt
> G-SMDH
>
>
--
/
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
OK - it would seem that Auto Fuel attacks the rubber seal in that
particular unit.
Now that you come to mention it there is a degree of swelling in the
gasket each time we dismantle it (about once a year) but we have never
had any problem reassembling the unit and there is no evidence of
deterioration - nor does it leak.
I can only assume that some brands of auto fuel contain additives which
attack the rubber.
I would have thought the simple answer would be to replace the gasket
with cork or auto gasket material - which one would assume is resistant.
Anyway, why dont they make gaskets that are fuel resistant - its not
rocket science.
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Klein
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 6:37 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel filters
On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 09:17 AM, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Our gascolator is a cheap aviation kit type filter with a metal bowl
and drain valve at the bottom. The fine gauze filter is a flat mesh
circle in the top of the unit. The fuel enters through the bottom of the
chamber and leaves through the top.
Carl,
I note in Acft. Spruce Cat. that the only "aviation kit type filter"
is not recommended for auto fuel; do you recall the name brand and model
# of what you're using?
Fred
--> http://forums.matronics.com
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
And here would seem is the evidence "28 gallons of fuel on the hangar
floor"
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115677&sid=e58bbc9d415735
15c9bc20686e9000ff
But as I said before "why dont they make the gaskets from fuel resistant
material".
----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Pattinson
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters
OK - it would seem that Auto Fuel attacks the rubber seal in that
particular unit.
Now that you come to mention it there is a degree of swelling in the
gasket each time we dismantle it (about once a year) but we have never
had any problem reassembling the unit and there is no evidence of
deterioration - nor does it leak.
I can only assume that some brands of auto fuel contain additives
which attack the rubber.
I would have thought the simple answer would be to replace the gasket
with cork or auto gasket material - which one would assume is resistant.
Anyway, why dont they make gaskets that are fuel resistant - its not
rocket science.
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Klein
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 6:37 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel filters
On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 09:17 AM, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Our gascolator is a cheap aviation kit type filter with a metal
bowl and drain valve at the bottom. The fine gauze filter is a flat mesh
circle in the top of the unit. The fuel enters through the bottom of the
chamber and leaves through the top.
Carl,
I note in Acft. Spruce Cat. that the only "aviation kit type filter"
is not recommended for auto fuel; do you recall the name brand and model
# of what you're using?
Fred
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List the Web
http://forums.matronics.com ==========
Message 21
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| Subject: | Europa Club member login details |
Assuming you are using Microsoft internet explorer when you go to
www.europaclub.org.uk you should see a side bar down the left hand side that
starts with "The Europa club" (and its sub headings) then "members Only",
"The Europa" etc.
To the left of "Members only" should be a + sign. Click on this to get the
sub headings and the first one should be "Request access"
Follow the instructions and Roberts's your fathers Brother :)
Simon
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Burrows
Sent: 01 July 2007 17:43
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Club member login details
<alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Sounds like there are a few of us out here that are not aware of a members
only section and how to get onto it.
How about someone "in authority" explaining just how we do it ???
Many Thanks
Alan Burrows
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson
Sent: 01 July 2007 17:31
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Club member login details
<carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
If there is a link page on the Europa Club website I would like to know
where to find it.
I have looked - but maybe im not looking hard enough.
Carl Pattinson
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:06 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Safety Data
>
> Hi! Willie H /Alan B.
> You need to register with the Europa Club web page members section and
> log the pass word of your choice. I'd think there is a link page which
> allows you to do just that.
>
> Regards
> Bob Harrison
>
> Do not archive.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
> Harrison
> Sent: 01 July 2007 09:17
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Safety Data
>
> <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
>
> Same question from me, Brian.
>
> Willie Harrison
>
>
> On 30 Jun 2007, at 18:57, Alan Burrows wrote:
>
>> insurance.com>
>>
>> How do I get access to the members only area of the website. Where
>> do I get
>> the user ID from?
>>
>> Alan
>
>
>
15:10
15:10
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
Possibly more of a worry is the gasket leaking and allowing air to be
sucked into the fuel system and cause fuel starvation.
Still I guess that if the aircraft isnt leaking fuel all over the hangar
floor it is reasonable to assume the fuel system is airtight.
Perhaps they use different fuel additives here in the UK.
----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Pattinson
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters
OK - it would seem that Auto Fuel attacks the rubber seal in that
particular unit.
Now that you come to mention it there is a degree of swelling in the
gasket each time we dismantle it (about once a year) but we have never
had any problem reassembling the unit and there is no evidence of
deterioration - nor does it leak.
I can only assume that some brands of auto fuel contain additives
which attack the rubber.
I would have thought the simple answer would be to replace the gasket
with cork or auto gasket material - which one would assume is resistant.
Anyway, why dont they make gaskets that are fuel resistant - its not
rocket science.
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Klein
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 6:37 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel filters
On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 09:17 AM, Carl Pattinson wrote:
Our gascolator is a cheap aviation kit type filter with a metal
bowl and drain valve at the bottom. The fine gauze filter is a flat mesh
circle in the top of the unit. The fuel enters through the bottom of the
chamber and leaves through the top.
Carl,
I note in Acft. Spruce Cat. that the only "aviation kit type filter"
is not recommended for auto fuel; do you recall the name brand and model
# of what you're using?
Fred
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List the Web
http://forums.matronics.com ==========
Message 23
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|
Hi Fred
I used a vent valve TRV86 in the top of the filler with a AN fitting
taken down to just forward of the flap tube,
http://www.thinkauto.com/
information on web site
sent photo's direct!
regards
Ivor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: 01 July 2007 18:43
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel venting
I understand that some builders have vented the tank and the sight
gauge to the top of the fuel filler pipe, taking care that the precise
location will not allow fuel being added to inadvertantly flow into the
vents. What I don't understand is...using the supplied fuel filler cap
(which is specifically called out as "non-venting", again in the ACS
catalogue)...how such an arrangement in fact can act to vent the fuel
system.
Can anyone enlighten me?
Fred
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
on 07/7/1 10:37 AM, Fred Klein at fklein@orcasonline.com wrote:
>
> On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 09:17 AM, Carl Pattinson wrote:
>
>> Our gascolator is a cheap aviation kit type filter with a metal bowl
>> and drain valve at the bottom. The fine gauze filter is a flat mesh
>> circle in the top of the unit. The fuel enters through the bottom of
>> the chamber and leaves through the top.
>
> Carl,
>
> I note in Acft. Spruce Cat. that the only "aviation kit type filter" is
> not recommended for auto fuel; do you recall the name brand and model #
> of what you're using?
>
> Fred
Fred,
I have used that same Aircraft Spruce filter for 340 hours. Just made my own
top gasket, to replace the original one.
Peter Timm
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
Hi Peter,
What is your gasket made from?
In ignorance we have been flying around with a "suspect" gasket and no ill
effects so far (5 years and 150hrs). Can any one with an understanding of
fuel composition/ additives cast any light on the matter. I always thought
that Petrol was - well petrol (or gasoline if you prefer). Diesel on the
other hand attacks all sorts of synthetic meterials and rubbers - including
the paintwork on some cars.
I really cant understand why a gacolator supplied for kit use is so labelled
"not for use with auto fuel".
Why cant they supply a suitable gasket in the first place - its totally
crazy!
Carl Pattinson
>
> Fred,
>
> I have used that same Aircraft Spruce filter for 340 hours. Just made my
> own
> top gasket, to replace the original one.
>
> Peter Timm
>
>
>
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
Carl,
Thank you for your prompt response. You say:
> All I can say is that we use exclusively automotive unleaded fuel in
> ours and have done so for 5 years with no problems. We cant/ dont use
> leaded or 100LL because the oil we use in our Rotax 912UL is fully
> synthetic.
Do you know whether or not your fuel has included any ethanol?
Fred
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
My understanding is that all unleaded fuel in the UK contains Ethanol.
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Klein
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters
Carl,
Thank you for your prompt response. You say:
All I can say is that we use exclusively automotive unleaded fuel in
ours and have done so for 5 years with no problems. We cant/ dont use
leaded or 100LL because the oil we use in our Rotax 912UL is fully
synthetic.
Do you know whether or not your fuel has included any ethanol?
Fred
--> http://forums.matronics.com
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
Fred:
My filters were upstream of the fuel seletor which meant they were
basically at the outlet of each tank feed. I thought this was reasonable
and so did everyone else who gave it a cursury look. However when you are
50 ft off of the ground on take off reaching to switch tank sides for a
good filter really doesn't cut the mustard that close to the ground.
Putting them after fuel selector valve and in front of each electric fuel
pump gives you more options. The normal procedure for takeoff and landing
is to have the aux pump on also. So if you do get a clog by chance you
have a parallel path. And since you normally only run the primary pump
for flight the filter in front of the aux pump is also less likely to have
some garbage loading in it.
Steve Hagar
A143
Mesa AZ
> [Original Message]
> From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 7/1/2007 7:53:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters
>
>
> Steve...thanks so much for staying on this topic...everytime I reread
> my original post, it sounds cockier and cockier, much to my chagrin. I
> take it that your "burble" was found to have been caused by tank debris
> (?).
> Do you still have the Europa filters upstream of the selector? Could
> you explain your reasoning for putting the Frams downstream of the
> selector?
>
> Fred
>
> On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 07:19 AM, Steve Hagar wrote:
>
> > <hagargs@earthlink.net>
> >
>
> > No matter how good you clean your tank and system you can't clean it
> > good
> > enough. I spent days and days. Soap, water. multiple flushes with
> > gasoline, compressed air, vacuuming etc. I felt fat and happy also
> > with
> > my process, nothing remotely visible or blowing around inside the
> > tank.
> > Several hours of taxi and runup, compass swing time etc. before first
> > flight The engine burbled on the go part on a touch and go and the
> > plane
> > ended up in a big mud puddle off the end of the runway just short of
> > the
> > airport boundary and a 4 lane toroughfare. This happened at about 4
> > hours
> > flight time.
> >
> > Solution: 2 BIG disposable automotive fuel filters downstream of your
> > fuel
> > selector valve. Throw them away before first flight. Fly 2 hours
> > with new
> > ones. Then go for 10. Then you can make believe you are on top of
> > the
> > situation. You can get Fram's at discount stores for about 8 bucks
> > each.
> > They are about 2 inches in diameter and 4 inches or so long, so there
> > is
> > plenty of surface area inside.
> >
> > Steve Hagar
> > A143
> > Mesa AZ
>
>
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
on 07/7/1 12:30 PM, Carl Pattinson at carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> What is your gasket made from?
>
> In ignorance we have been flying around with a "suspect" gasket and no ill
> effects so far (5 years and 150hrs). Can any one with an understanding of
> fuel composition/ additives cast any light on the matter. I always thought
> that Petrol was - well petrol (or gasoline if you prefer). Diesel on the
> other hand attacks all sorts of synthetic meterials and rubbers - including
> the paintwork on some cars.
>
> I really cant understand why a gacolator supplied for kit use is so labelled
> "not for use with auto fuel".
>
> Why cant they supply a suitable gasket in the first place - its totally
> crazy!
>
> Carl Pattinson
>
>>
>> Fred,
>>
>> I have used that same Aircraft Spruce filter for 340 hours. Just made my
>> own
>> top gasket, to replace the original one.
>>
>> Peter Timm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Carl,
I used a card-board like gasket material sold in any automotive supply
store, and used suitably sized templates to cut out my gasket with a very
sharp knife. I put a piece of the material in a jar with auto-gas , while I
was still working on the plane. It never reacted to the gas in any way and
it is still the same gasket six years later.
My gascolator is mounted on a small quarter bulkhead low down behind the
trailing edge of the left flap. The fuel-line goes from the selector valve
to the gascolator, then forward through the electric boost-pump , which is
mounted forward on the same bulkhead, through the tunnel and firewall to the
mechanical pump. I put an inspection door under the gascolator for testing
and servicing. It works very well.
Hope this explains it.
Peter Timm
Message 30
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|
Fred,
Not wanting to beat the topic to death, but my experience was the same as
everyone else's. that is to say despite all the care I took in vacuuming,
washing, flushing and so on, my gascolator pulled out a surprising amount of
crud. It was roughly equivalent to the size of two sugar cubes over the
first 25 hours.
So, what ever fuel system you settle on, be very cautious in the early
flight testing phases.
Just as a reminder, according to the FAA, More than 70% of engine failures
in homebuilt aircraft are due to fuel problems, and half of homebuilt
aircraft suffer a reduction or complete loss of power in the first 10 hours
of flight. Very sobering statistics.
Regards, Paul
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
Right on Peter T....sounds excellent.
Do not archive
On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 01:45 PM, Peter Timm wrote:
>
> on 07/7/1 12:30 PM, Carl Pattinson at carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk
> wrote:
>
>> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>>
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>> What is your gasket made from?
>>
>> In ignorance we have been flying around with a "suspect" gasket and
>> no ill
>> effects so far (5 years and 150hrs). Can any one with an
>> understanding of
>> fuel composition/ additives cast any light on the matter. I always
>> thought
>> that Petrol was - well petrol (or gasoline if you prefer). Diesel on
>> the
>> other hand attacks all sorts of synthetic meterials and rubbers -
>> including
>> the paintwork on some cars.
>>
>> I really cant understand why a gacolator supplied for kit use is so
>> labelled
>> "not for use with auto fuel".
>>
>> Why cant they supply a suitable gasket in the first place - its
>> totally
>> crazy!
>>
>> Carl Pattinson
>>
>>>
>>> Fred,
>>>
>>> I have used that same Aircraft Spruce filter for 340 hours. Just
>>> made my
>>> own
>>> top gasket, to replace the original one.
>>>
>>> Peter Timm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Carl,
>
> I used a card-board like gasket material sold in any automotive supply
> store, and used suitably sized templates to cut out my gasket with a
> very
> sharp knife. I put a piece of the material in a jar with auto-gas ,
> while I
> was still working on the plane. It never reacted to the gas in any way
> and
> it is still the same gasket six years later.
> My gascolator is mounted on a small quarter bulkhead low down behind
> the
> trailing edge of the left flap. The fuel-line goes from the selector
> valve
> to the gascolator, then forward through the electric boost-pump ,
> which is
> mounted forward on the same bulkhead, through the tunnel and firewall
> to the
> mechanical pump. I put an inspection door under the gascolator for
> testing
> and servicing. It works very well.
> Hope this explains it.
>
> Peter Timm
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel filters |
Sobering statistics indeed...thanks for chiming in Paul...I respect
every word you've written here.
Fred
do not archive
On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 01:58 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:
> Just as a reminder, according to the FAA, More than 70% of engine
> failures
> in homebuilt aircraft are due to fuel problems, and half of homebuilt
> aircraft suffer a reduction or complete loss of power in the first 10
> hours
> of flight. Very sobering statistics.
>
> Regards, Paul
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone going to Oshkosh? |
Hi Bud,
Thanks for setting up the forum. I plan to be there and I will be with
my plane in the Home Built Camping area.
Cheers, John
N262WF, mono XS, 912S
Mooresville, North Carolina
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
From: "ALAN YERLY" <budyerly@msn.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Anyone going to Oshkosh?
Europa Owners,
I will be hosting a Europa Forum on Thursday the 26th of July from 4:00
- 5:15 P.M. at Pavilion 1 for all Europa Owners and intersted parties.
My thanks to Jim Butcher and others who have helped me to come show the
flag and share what news I have as the new distributor for Europa. I
will close my shop and join you to answer any questions on how the
company is doing and any questions on construction, as I have had the
opportunity to help a few of you from construction thru flight test.
So please, bring your questions, pictures and war stories to share.
Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations US Europa Distributor and fellow owner.
Message 34
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| Subject: | Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Europa-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete Europa-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains Europa-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Europa-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Europa-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
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Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
europa-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
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Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
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**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
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Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "europa-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
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* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
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the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
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*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the Europa-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
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If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
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*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
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Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the Europa-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
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*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Europa-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Europa-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Europa-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Europa-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Europa-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Europa-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Europa
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
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associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
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I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
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Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
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Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
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Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
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If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
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Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
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| Subject: | Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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