Europa-List Digest Archive

Sat 07/14/07


Total Messages Posted: 28



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:31 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (John Price)
     2. 01:13 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (josok)
     3. 01:52 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Carl Pattinson)
     4. 01:59 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Nigel Graham)
     5. 03:49 AM - Stade Fly-In Sept. 1-2 (Europa91)
     6. 04:03 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (josok)
     7. 04:39 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Jan de Jong)
     8. 06:01 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Nigel Graham)
     9. 06:04 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Carl Pattinson)
    10. 07:06 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Carl Pattinson)
    11. 07:56 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
    12. 08:02 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (William Harrison)
    13. 08:40 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (glenn crowder)
    14. 09:45 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
    15. 09:52 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
    16. 10:14 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Richard Iddon)
    17. 10:45 AM - Started Mod 73 (Flying Farmer)
    18. 10:58 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (josok)
    19. 11:00 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (John Price)
    20. 01:39 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (glenn crowder)
    21. 01:53 PM - Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" (Richard Holder)
    22. 02:33 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
    23. 02:58 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Graham Singleton)
    24. 04:59 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (glenn crowder)
    25. 05:45 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Mike Parkin)
    26. 06:05 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" (rlborger)
    27. 08:05 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (glenn crowder)
    28. 10:59 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:31:38 AM PST US
    From: "John Price" <nicolaprice@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    14 Hantone HillSince I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated. This may save a lot of problems. John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike will ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer


    Message 2


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    Time: 01:13:50 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
    Hi John, Whether mod 10672 has been incorporated should become clear from the paperwork. Mechanically you could try to pierce the foam between TP5&6 with a long pin. If there is glass instead of foam, you will probably be fine. Then the question remains who will sign it of. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org


    Message 3


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    Time: 01:52:08 AM PST US
    From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    14 Hantone HillLook down inside each tailplane where the torque tube goes (using a torch). If you can see foam it hasnt been done. If not sure use a sharp implement to check. It should be annotated in the airframe logbook anyway. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Price To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Since I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated. This may save a lot of problems. John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike will ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer


    Message 4


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    Time: 01:59:42 AM PST US
    From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btclick.com>
    Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    14 Hantone HillJohn, It's dead easy to tell. Peer into the open end of the tailplane (you may need a torch/flashlight). If all you can see down the bore between TP5 and TP6 is blue foam - the mod has NOT been carried out. If you can see an unbroken lining of composite laminate - the mod HAS been carried out. The paperwork should record this. Contrary to Mike's memo, this mod is capable of being retro fitted (and would be the only solution I would trust) - but it would take a lot of careful work by a very competent composite craftsman. Might be a good time to start snapping up all those unstarted "Kit One - Tailplane kits" that are often advertised. Nigel Credibility Qualifyer: I'm the bloke that thought-up mod 10672! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Price Sent: 14 July 2007 08:29 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Since I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated. This may save a lot of problems. John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike will ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer


    Message 5


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    Time: 03:49:40 AM PST US
    Subject: Stade Fly-In Sept. 1-2
    From: "Europa91" <Eupa91@gmx.de>
    The Europa Fly-In in Stade (EDHS, near Hamburg) this year will take place Saturday to Sunday, September 1 to 2. Together with the local flying club Luftsportverein Guenther Grnhoff we would be glad to meet as many Europa flyers and friends as possible to come. We will have dinner on Saturday evening in nearby Agathenburg as usual. Accomodation can also be provided upon request. Please inform us on participation per email (see below) so we can make adequate provisions. Erich Gabbe, Kit no 91, still building Europa91@gmx.de Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123750#123750


    Message 6


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    Time: 04:03:27 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
    Hi Nigel, It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person for a great idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about loose bushes! :-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org


    Message 7


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    Time: 04:39:39 AM PST US
    From: Jan de Jong <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed! Regards, Jan de Jong josok wrote: > > Hi Nigel, > It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person for a great idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about loose bushes! > :-) > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:01:14 AM PST US
    From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
    Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    Hartstikke bedankt heren, tot u dienst. What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa Aviation in the late '90s highlighting the potential problem with the tailplane and proposing that the tailplane mod be adopted as the standard build procedure. It would have cost nothing - no extra parts, just a change to build instructions the manual. In my mail to them, I even predicted a sequence of events that could lead to a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up of the aircraft. No interest was shown whatsoever and I never heard back from them. When I learned of the in-flight break-up of William's plane, I had a sickening feeling that I knew what might have happened. The full AAIB report will confirm (or otherwise) if I was correct but the fact that the authorities are looking closely at this component leads me to believe I'm on the money. m.v.g. Nigel -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de Jong Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed! Regards, Jan de Jong josok wrote: > > Hi Nigel, > It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person for a great idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about loose bushes! > :-) > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 06:04:42 AM PST US
    From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    14 Hantone HillI think many Europa builders realised the stainless steel rings would cause a problem sooner or later and took steps to mitigate the problem (such as mod 10672). I scored each ring (TP6 sleeve) with a hacksaw at 45 degrees around the circumference and am pretty confident it is secure. There is also a flox ring surrounding the outside of the stainless steel ring which is bonded to the plywood sheet and I also have photos to prove it. Problem is it is bonded to the inboard surface of the plywood insert which under extreme loads could break away. Unfortunately the PFA have to assume the worst posible standard of build and come up with a failsafe remedy. Personally I think Mod 73 is a somewhat inelegant solution to the problem and we may yet see further amendments to this design. For my money I feel its weakness is that it relies on a relatively shallow lip to prevent a disbonded TP6 sleeve working its way inboard of the tailplane. I note from my own photos of the finished layups that about 8-10mm of TP6 protrudes beyond the outboard end of the plywood insert. Since major invasive surgery has been deemed necessary it might have been better to cut an aperture in the underside of the tailplane, cut away the surrounding foam from the outboard end of the TP6 sleeve and redux a retaining ring or plate onto the protruding end of the sleeve. Even then it would be impossible to guarantee the integrity of such a bond. At least Mod 73 should bring some of the poorer installations up to an acceptable and safe standard. Its a pity the original design couldnt have been better but then we all know hindsight is a wonderful thing. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: Nigel Graham To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 9:59 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 John, It's dead easy to tell. Peer into the open end of the tailplane (you may need a torch/flashlight). If all you can see down the bore between TP5 and TP6 is blue foam - the mod has NOT been carried out. If you can see an unbroken lining of composite laminate - the mod HAS been carried out. The paperwork should record this. Contrary to Mike's memo, this mod is capable of being retro fitted (and would be the only solution I would trust) - but it would take a lot of careful work by a very competent composite craftsman. Might be a good time to start snapping up all those unstarted "Kit One - Tailplane kits" that are often advertised. Nigel Credibility Qualifyer: I'm the bloke that thought-up mod 10672! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Price Sent: 14 July 2007 08:29 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Since I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated. This may save a lot of problems. John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike will ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:06:49 AM PST US
    From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    Im not sure your mod would have prevented Williams accident. I believe his kit would have been purchased in 1994 and was finished in 1995. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btconnect.com> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:59 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > <nigel_graham@btconnect.com> > > Hartstikke bedankt heren, tot u dienst. > > What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa Aviation in the late '90s > highlighting the potential problem with the tailplane and proposing that > the > tailplane mod be adopted as the standard build procedure. It would have > cost > nothing - no extra parts, just a change to build instructions the manual. > In my mail to them, I even predicted a sequence of events that could lead > to > a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up of the > aircraft. > No interest was shown whatsoever and I never heard back from them. > When I learned of the in-flight break-up of William's plane, I had a > sickening feeling that I knew what might have happened. The full AAIB > report > will confirm (or otherwise) if I was correct but the fact that the > authorities are looking closely at this component leads me to believe I'm > on > the money. > > m.v.g. > > Nigel > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de Jong > Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > > > I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed! > Regards, > Jan de Jong > > josok wrote: >> >> Hi Nigel, >> It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person for a >> great > idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about loose > bushes! >> :-) >> >> Regards, >> >> Jos Okhuijsen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:56:14 AM PST US
    From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    14 Hantone HillWhile there may be doubt whether the shallow lip on the inside of TP6 will be adequate as a tailplane retention, it is worth reading EA2004's reasoning behind Mod 73 carefully: Retention of the tailplane by TP6 (and the pip pin securing TP6 to the torque tube) AND a secondary retention by the pip pin and its surrounding composite structure alone, should the primary retention not hold. The mod is therefore as much a strengthening of the structure around the pip pin and a proper transfer of forces acting on the pip pin into the tailplane skin, as it is a mod for better bonding of TP6 to the tailplane. This is the reason why the instructions make a point of not removing any bid/epoxy around the hole on the underside, in the event the pip pin ball should not open on the underside of the new layup, but instead buy a longer pip pin. Removing bid/epoxy here would defeat that secondary retention function of the mod. As I understand it, this view is also reflected in FSB-006 Issue 3 section 5: Mod 73 need to be done if the upper pip pin recess does not satisfy the stated requirements. I think, however, that PFA ought to have required ovalization of the torque tube holes even if Mod 73 may be omitted if the requirements of Section 5 are complied with -ovalization should be done in any event, I think. Regards, Svein LN-SKJ


    Message 12


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    Time: 08:02:44 AM PST US
    From: William Harrison <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    I have heard that there are still doubts in the AAIB investigation about whether the initial failure was the wing pin (with consequential failure of the tail) or the other way around. Hence we are being required to cover both hypotheses by mods and checks front and back. If it was indeed the wing pin which failed first - very big "if" - then the implication is that the tail could/would have then failed because it was subject to loads it had never been designed for (perhaps a sudden pitch or roll or yaw?) , and not because there was anything wrong with it - it would have been a consequential event, not a causal one. You might also feel that if the wing pin had failed then the aircraft may have been doomed whether or not the tail broke up. If this is true then perhaps neither mod 73 nor Nigel's mod would have saved the day. A supporting thought to this hypothesis is that the build quality around the wing pin on the crash aircraft is known to have been poor. Also, the aircraft is known to have been returning from a Permit inspection when the wings would have been removed and replaced. Perhaps in refitting the wing, some damage was done to the already compromised wing pin? Just a thought. Willie Harrison On 14 Jul 2007, at 15:05, Carl Pattinson wrote: > <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > > Im not sure your mod would have prevented Williams accident. > > I believe his kit would have been purchased in 1994 and was > finished in 1995. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Graham" > <nigel_graham@btconnect.com> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:59 PM > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > >> <nigel_graham@btconnect.com> >> >> Hartstikke bedankt heren, tot u dienst. >> >> What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa Aviation in the >> late '90s >> highlighting the potential problem with the tailplane and >> proposing that the >> tailplane mod be adopted as the standard build procedure. It would >> have cost >> nothing - no extra parts, just a change to build instructions the >> manual. >> In my mail to them, I even predicted a sequence of events that >> could lead to >> a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up >> of the >> aircraft. >> No interest was shown whatsoever and I never heard back from them. >> When I learned of the in-flight break-up of William's plane, I had a >> sickening feeling that I knew what might have happened. The full >> AAIB report >> will confirm (or otherwise) if I was correct but the fact that the >> authorities are looking closely at this component leads me to >> believe I'm on >> the money. >> >> m.v.g. >> >> Nigel >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de >> Jong >> Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46 >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 >> >> >> <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl> >> >> I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed! >> Regards, >> Jan de Jong >> >> josok wrote: >>> >>> Hi Nigel, >>> It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person >>> for a great >> idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about >> loose >> bushes! >>> :-) >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jos Okhuijsen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:40:23 AM PST US
    From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    I wonder about the integrity of the elevator mass balance in the accident aircraft. If the mass balance had become disengaged for any reason, then the slightest distu rbance in pitch could cause the elevator to become uncontrollable. This would be consisten t with the report of wild pitch excursions initially prior to the tail departing. Glenn> From: willie.harrison@tiny online.co.uk> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73> Date: Sa t, 14 Jul 2007 16:01:35 +0100> To: europa-list@matronics.com> > --> Europa- List message posted by: William Harrison <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk> > > I have heard that there are still doubts in the AAIB investigation > ab out whether the initial failure was the wing pin (with > consequential fail ure of the tail) or the other way around. Hence we > are being required to cover both hypotheses by mods and checks front > and back.> > If it was ind eed the wing pin which failed first - very big "if" - > then the implicatio n is that the tail could/would have then failed > because it was subject to loads it had never been designed for > (perhaps a sudden pitch or roll or yaw?) , and not because there was > anything wrong with it - it would have been a consequential event, > not a causal one. You might also feel that if the wing pin had failed > then the aircraft may have been doomed whether o r not the tail broke > up. If this is true then perhaps neither mod 73 nor Nigel's mod > would have saved the day.> > A supporting thought to this hyp othesis is that the build quality > around the wing pin on the crash aircra ft is known to have been poor. > Also, the aircraft is known to have been r eturning from a Permit > inspection when the wings would have been removed and replaced. > Perhaps in refitting the wing, some damage was done to the already > compromised wing pin?> > Just a thought.> > Willie Harrison> > > > On 14 Jul 2007, at 15:05, Carl Pattinson wrote:> > > --> Europa-List mess age posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > > <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>> >> > Im not sure your mod would have prevented Williams accident.> >> > I believe h is kit would have been purchased in 1994 and was > > finished in 1995.> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Graham" > > <nigel_graham@bt connect.com>> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>> > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:59 PM> > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73> >> >> connect.com>> >>> >> Hartstikke bedankt heren, tot u dienst.> >>> >> What r eally saddens me is that I wrote to Europa Aviation in the > >> late '90s> >> highlighting the potential problem with the tailplane and > >> proposing that the> >> tailplane mod be adopted as the standard build procedure. It would > >> have cost> >> nothing - no extra parts, just a change to build i nstructions the > >> manual.> >> In my mail to them, I even predicted a seq uence of events that > >> could lead to> >> a tailplane becoming detached a nd the resulting in-flight break-up > >> of the> >> aircraft.> >> No intere st was shown whatsoever and I never heard back from them.> >> When I learne d of the in-flight break-up of William's plane, I had a> >> sickening feeli ng that I knew what might have happened. The full > >> AAIB report> >> will confirm (or otherwise) if I was correct but the fact that the> >> authorit ies are looking closely at this component leads me to > >> believe I'm on> >> the money.> >>> >> m.v.g.> >>> >> Nigel> >>> >> -----Original Message--- --> >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> >> [mailto:owner-europ a-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de > >> Jong> >> Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46> >> To: europa-list@matronics.com> >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: an de Jong > >> <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>> >>> >> I am glad to second that. T hank you very much indeed!> >> Regards,> >> Jan de Jong> >>> >> josok wrote >>> Hi Nigel,> >>> It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person > >>> for a great> >> idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't h ave to worry about > >> loose> >> bushes!> >>> :-)> >>>> >>> Regards,> >>>> >>> Jos Okhuijsen> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Visit - www.EuropaOwn ers.org> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> =====> > > _________________________________________________________________ Missed the show?- Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN. http://liveearth.msn.com


    Message 14


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    Time: 09:45:00 AM PST US
    From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    > > > I wonder about the integrity of the elevator mass balance in the accident >aircraft. If the >mass balance had become disengaged for any reason, then the slightest >disturbance in pitch >could cause the elevator to become uncontrollable. This would be >consistent with the report >of wild pitch excursions initially prior to the tail departing. I am not so sure about the above. A failing mass balance would have the same effect as pushing the stick forward. The pilot would instinctively pull back the stick and regain level flight. Maximum trim would then reduce that load a little, but there should be no real problem in maintaining ccordinated flight with the stick held back. Karl > > Glenn> From: >willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa >Tailplane - Mod 73> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:01:35 +0100> To: >Harrison <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>> > I have heard that there are >still doubts in the AAIB investigation > about whether the initial failure >was the wing pin (with > consequential failure of the tail) or the other >way around. Hence we > are being required to cover both hypotheses by mods >and checks front > and back.> > If it was indeed the wing pin which failed >first - very big "if" - > then the implication is that the tail could/would >have then failed > because it was subject to loads it had never been >designed for > (perhaps a sudden pitch or roll or yaw?) , and not because >there was > anything wrong with it - it would have been a consequential >event, > not a causal one. You might also feel that if the wing pin had >failed > then the aircraft may have been doomed whether or not the tail >broke > up. If this is true then perhaps neither mod 73 nor Nigel's mod > >would have saved the day.> > A supporting thought to this hypothesis is >that the build quality > around the wing pin on the crash aircraft is known >to have been poor. > Also, the aircraft is known to have been returning >from a Permit > inspection when the wings would have been removed and >replaced. > Perhaps in refitting the wing, some damage was done to the >already > compromised wing pin?> > Just a thought.> > Willie Harrison> > > > > On 14 Jul 2007, at 15:05, Carl Pattinson wrote:> > > --> Europa-List >message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > > <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>> >> > >Im not sure your mod would have prevented Williams accident.> >> > I >believe his kit would have been purchased in 1994 and was > > finished in >1995.> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Graham" > > ><nigel_graham@btconnect.com>> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>> > Sent: >Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:59 PM> > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa >Graham" > >> <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>> >>> >> Hartstikke bedankt heren, >tot u dienst.> >>> >> What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa >Aviation in the > >> late '90s> >> highlighting the potential problem with >the tailplane and > >> proposing that the> >> tailplane mod be adopted as >the standard build procedure. It would > >> have cost> >> nothing - no >extra parts, just a change to build instructions the > >> manual.> >> In my >mail to them, I even predicted a sequence of events that > >> could lead >to> >> a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up > > >> of the> >> aircraft.> >> No interest was shown whatsoever and I never >heard back from them.> >> When I learned of the in-flight break-up of >William's plane, I had a> >> sickening feeling that I knew what might have >happened. The full > >> AAIB report> >> will confirm (or otherwise) if I >was correct but the fact that the> >> authorities are looking closely at >this component leads me to > >> believe I'm on> >> the money.> >>> >> >m.v.g.> >>> >> Nigel> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From: >owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> >> >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de > >> >Jong> >> Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46> >> To: europa-list@matronics.com> >> >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73> >>> >>> >> --> >Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong > >> <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>> > >>> >> I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed!> >> Regards,> > >> Jan de Jong> >>> >> josok wrote:> >>> --> Europa-List message posted >by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>> >>>> >>> Hi Nigel,> >>> It's a seldom >opportonity to be able to thank the right person > >>> for a great> >> >idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about > >> >loose> >> bushes!> >>> :-)> >>>> >>> Regards,> >>>> >>> Jos Okhuijsen> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org> >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>=====> > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Missed the show? Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN. >http://liveearth.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ Tell MSN about your most memorable emails! http://www.emailbritain.co.uk/


    Message 15


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    Time: 09:52:59 AM PST US
    From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    Can anyone explain to me how the tailplane can possibly move outward by even a millimeter when the pip pin head is resting firmly against a solid wall on the inboard side, whether this is epoxy, glass, wood or anything else ? Where are these huge forces that would pull this pin sideways through the surrounding foam body ? Is a loose TP6 really such a big problem, apart from making it difficult if not impossible to rig the tailplane ? Regards, Karl >From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no> >To: <europa-list@matronics.com> >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 >Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:54:16 +0200 > >14 Hantone HillWhile there may be doubt whether the shallow lip on the >inside of TP6 will be adequate as a tailplane retention, it is worth >reading EA2004's reasoning behind Mod 73 carefully: Retention of the >tailplane by TP6 (and the pip pin securing TP6 to the torque tube) AND a >secondary retention by the pip pin and its surrounding composite structure >alone, should the primary retention not hold. The mod is therefore as much >a strengthening of the structure around the pip pin and a proper transfer >of forces acting on the pip pin into the tailplane skin, as it is a mod for >better bonding of TP6 to the tailplane. > >This is the reason why the instructions make a point of not removing any >bid/epoxy around the hole on the underside, in the event the pip pin ball >should not open on the underside of the new layup, but instead buy a longer >pip pin. Removing bid/epoxy here would defeat that secondary retention >function of the mod. > >As I understand it, this view is also reflected in FSB-006 Issue 3 section >5: Mod 73 need to be done if the upper pip pin recess does not satisfy the >stated requirements. I think, however, that PFA ought to have required >ovalization of the torque tube holes even if Mod 73 may be omitted if the >requirements of Section 5 are complied with -ovalization should be done in >any event, I think. > >Regards, >Svein >LN-SKJ _________________________________________________________________ Tell Hotmail about an email that changed your life! http://www.emailbritain.co.uk/


    Message 16


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    Time: 10:14:26 AM PST US
    From: "Richard Iddon" <riddon@sent.com>
    Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    Nigel, Can you tell me where I can find details of mod 10672 as I can=92t locate it on the Europa Aircraft web site? Richard Iddon G-RIXS 13/07/2007 15:41 13/07/2007 15:41


    Message 17


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    Time: 10:45:48 AM PST US
    Subject: Started Mod 73
    From: "Flying Farmer" <richard@scarrhillalpacas.co.uk>
    All Starting the mod 73, as my tail planes are still in the workshop and not filled or painted; In I went with the knife. I have found that the TP6 bush measures at 50mm from the face of the inboard side of the outboard rib. This puts it 10mm inboard more than the, instructions on the Mod 73 paper work, in turn will make the span wise diameter 60mm instead of the described 50mm. Before I continue, I ask is anyone finding the same measurements? I have checked the first instillation of the TP6 from the manual and I fine it is as it should be. Thank You Richard Wheelwright. Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org


    Message 18


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    Time: 10:58:48 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
    Hi Richsrd, http://www.europaclub.org.uk/mods/improved_tp5_and_tp6_sleeve_retention.shtml Europa club pages, Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org


    Message 19


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    Time: 11:00:15 AM PST US
    From: "John Price" <nicolaprice@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    14 Hantone HillIts on the Europa club website builders pages I think. Thanks for the what ' to look for' Nigel. John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Iddon To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 6:13 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Nigel, Can you tell me where I can find details of mod 10672 as I can=92t locate it on the Europa Aircraft web site? Richard Iddon G-RIXS 13/07/2007 15:41 13/07/2007 15:41


    Message 20


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    Time: 01:39:44 PM PST US
    From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    Yeah, I got that but without mass balancing, the elevator could tend to s lam up or down to the stops, possibly ripping the stick out of the pilots hands. One or t wo oscillations of this sort and the tail would come off for sure. Glenn> From: kheindl@msn.c om> To: europa-list@matronics.com> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailpla ne - Mod 73> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 17:43:49 +0100> > --> Europa-List messa ge posted by: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl@msn.com>> > > > > > > >> >> > I wonder about the integrity of the elevator mass balance in the accident > >aircra ft. If the> >mass balance had become disengaged for any reason, then the sl ightest > >disturbance in pitch> >could cause the elevator to become uncont rollable. This would be > >consistent with the report> >of wild pitch excur sions initially prior to the tail departing.> > > I am not so sure about th e above. A failing mass balance would have the same > effect as pushing the stick forward. The pilot would instinctively pull back > the stick and reg ain level flight. Maximum trim would then reduce that load > a little, but there should be no real problem in maintaining ccordinated > flight with th e stick held back.> > Karl> > > >> > Glenn> From: > >willie.harrison@tinyon line.co.uk> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa > >Tailplane - Mod 73> Date: S at, 14 Jul 2007 16:01:35 +0100> To: > >europa-list@matronics.com> > --> Eur opa-List message posted by: William > >Harrison <willie.harrison@tinyonline .co.uk>> > I have heard that there are > >still doubts in the AAIB investig ation > about whether the initial failure > >was the wing pin (with > conse quential failure of the tail) or the other > >way around. Hence we > are be ing required to cover both hypotheses by mods > >and checks front > and bac k.> > If it was indeed the wing pin which failed > >first - very big "if" - > then the implication is that the tail could/would > >have then failed > because it was subject to loads it had never been > >designed for > (perhap s a sudden pitch or roll or yaw?) , and not because > >there was > anything wrong with it - it would have been a consequential > >event, > not a causa l one. You might also feel that if the wing pin had > >failed > then the ai rcraft may have been doomed whether or not the tail > >broke > up. If this is true then perhaps neither mod 73 nor Nigel's mod > > >would have saved t he day.> > A supporting thought to this hypothesis is > >that the build qua lity > around the wing pin on the crash aircraft is known > >to have been p oor. > Also, the aircraft is known to have been returning > >from a Permit > inspection when the wings would have been removed and > >replaced. > Perh aps in refitting the wing, some damage was done to the > >already > comprom ised wing pin?> > Just a thought.> > Willie Harrison> > > > > > On 14 Jul 2 007, at 15:05, Carl Pattinson wrote:> > > --> Europa-List > >message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > > <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>> >> > > >Im not sur e your mod would have prevented Williams accident.> >> > I > >believe his k it would have been purchased in 1994 and was > > finished in > >1995.> >> > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Graham" > > > ><nigel_graham@ btconnect.com>> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>> > Sent: > >Saturday, Jul y 14, 2007 1:59 PM> > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa > >Tailplane - Mod 7 l_graham@btconnect.com>> >>> >> Hartstikke bedankt heren, > >tot u dienst.> >>> >> What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa > >Aviation in the > >> late '90s> >> highlighting the potential problem with > >the tailplan e and > >> proposing that the> >> tailplane mod be adopted as > >the standa rd build procedure. It would > >> have cost> >> nothing - no > >extra parts , just a change to build instructions the > >> manual.> >> In my > >mail to them, I even predicted a sequence of events that > >> could lead > >to> >> a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up > > > > > of the> >> aircraft.> >> No interest was shown whatsoever and I never > > heard back from them.> >> When I learned of the in-flight break-up of > >Wi lliam's plane, I had a> >> sickening feeling that I knew what might have > >happened. The full > >> AAIB report> >> will confirm (or otherwise) if I > >was correct but the fact that the> >> authorities are looking closely at > >this component leads me to > >> believe I'm on> >> the money.> >>> >> > >m.v.g.> >>> >> Nigel> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From: > >owner -europa-list-server@matronics.com> >> > >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@m atronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de > >> > >Jong> >> Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46> >> To: europa-list@matronics.com> >> > >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa T ailplane - Mod 73> >>> >>> >> --> > >Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong > >> <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>> > > >>> >> I am glad to second that. Tha nk you very much indeed!> >> Regards,> > > >> Jan de Jong> >>> >> josok wro te:> >>> --> Europa-List message posted > >by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>> >>>> >>> Hi Nigel,> >>> It's a seldom > >opportonity to be able to thank th e right person > >>> for a great> >> > >idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy tha t i don't have to worry about > >> > >loose> >> bushes!> >>> :-)> >>>> >>> Regards,> >>>> >>> Jos Okhuijsen> >>>> > > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Vis it - www.EuropaOwners.org> >>>> >>>> >>>> > > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>=====> > >> >______________________________ ___________________________________> >Missed the show? Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN.> >http://liveearth.msn.com> > _________________ ________________________________________________> Tell MSN about your most ====> > > _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one pla ce! Find it! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01


    Message 21


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    Time: 01:53:44 PM PST US
    From: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
    Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin"
    > This is the reason why the instructions make a point of > not removing any bid/epoxy around the hole on the > underside, in the event the pip pin ball should not > open on the underside of the new layup, but instead buy > a longer pip pin. Removing bid/epoxy here would > defeat that secondary retention function of the mod. I am going to disagree with this. I think this requirement to "buy a bigger pip-pin" is unreasonable. Firstly, the amount of bid/resin required to be removed to get the pip pin to release its balls is tiny - see how big the balls are ! Maybe a ring of 25 thou of resin/bid would need to be removed. Secondly I understand that the pip pin BLS4R17N is somewhat out of fashion and that it and BLS4R07N (much shorter) are the only ones readily available. BLS4R17N is a 1 3/4 inch pip pin. There are 2 inch pip pins available in a different style but with much larger heads. The other factor is that the BLS4R17N are about 50 each from E(2004), so the Mod 73 fix is a few quid in resin and maybe an extra 100 plus VAT if a bigger pip pin is required (if they can find any). It may be that E(2004) can be persuaded to charge only cost price for the longer pip pins (around 20 - 25 maybe). This problem is after all a design problem. Hunkering down down to avoid all the flack that will probably come my way. Richard G-OWWW grounded now for 5 weeks :-(


    Message 22


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    Time: 02:33:34 PM PST US
    From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin"
    Or, for those of us that don't take off the tailplanes (except now every 10 hours) a bolt and a nut (or wing nut and securing ring)?! Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holder" <rholder@avnet.co.uk> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 9:52 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" > >> This is the reason why the instructions make a point of >> not removing any bid/epoxy around the hole on the underside, in the >> event the pip pin ball should not open on the underside of the new layup, >> but instead buy >> a longer pip pin. Removing bid/epoxy here would >> defeat that secondary retention function of the mod. > > I am going to disagree with this. I think this requirement > to "buy a bigger pip-pin" is unreasonable. > > Firstly, the amount of bid/resin required to be removed to > get the pip pin to release its balls is tiny - see how big > the balls are ! Maybe a ring of 25 thou of resin/bid would > need to be removed. > > Secondly I understand that the pip pin BLS4R17N is > somewhat out of fashion and that it and BLS4R07N (much > shorter) are the only ones readily available. > > BLS4R17N is a 1 3/4 inch pip pin. There are 2 inch pip > pins available in a different style but with much larger > heads. > > The other factor is that the BLS4R17N are about 50 each > from E(2004), so the Mod 73 fix is a few quid in resin and > maybe an extra 100 plus VAT if a bigger pip pin is > required (if they can find any). > > It may be that E(2004) can be persuaded to charge only > cost price for the longer pip pins (around 20 - 25 > maybe). This problem is after all a design problem. > > Hunkering down down to avoid all the flack that will > probably come my way. > > Richard > G-OWWW grounded now for 5 weeks :-( > > >


    Message 23


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    Time: 02:58:27 PM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    What I still don't understand is that the wings came off and from the information to date there was not enough speed to pull the wings off. Incomplete information it would appear. Wings should not fail at any speed less than about 125 knots? That's what max rough air speed means. Graham glenn crowder wrote: > Yeah, I got that but without mass balancing, the elevator could tend > to slam up or down > to the stops, possibly ripping the stick out of the pilots hands. One > or two oscillations of > this sort and the tail would come off for sure. > > Glenn >


    Message 24


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    Time: 04:59:48 PM PST US
    From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    Once the tailplane(s) departed, the wing by itself has a negative pitchin g moment. Once the main wing heads down with nothing to stop it, would normally tend to pitch all the way under, which would certainly break the wing attachments. Glenn> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:01:30 +0100> From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> To: europa-list@matr onics.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73> > --> Europ a-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> > > What I still don't understand is that the wings came off and from the > information to date there was not enough speed to pull the wings off. > In complete information it would appear. Wings should not fail at any > speed less than about 125 knots? That's what max rough air speed means.> Graham> > glenn crowder wrote:> > Yeah, I got that but without mass balancing, the elevator could tend > > to slam up or down> > to the stops, possibly rippin g the stick out of the pilots hands. One > > or two oscillations of> > this ========================> _ =======> > > _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine=92s 2007 editors=92 choice for best web mail=97award-winning Wi ndows Live Hotmail. ration_HMWL_mini_pcmag_0707


    Message 25


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    Time: 05:45:53 PM PST US
    From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    Glenn, I am not so sure about that statement. As one accellerates, more nose down trim is required - standard in any aeroplane. That implies that if the tailplane was taken out of the equation, the aircraft would pitch up - not down. Aerodynamicists, am I missing something here?? regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn crowder To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 12:57 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Once the tailplane(s) departed, the wing by itself has a negative pitching moment. Once the main wing heads down with nothing to stop it, would normally tend to pitch all the way under, which would certainly break the wing attachments. Glenn


    Message 26


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    Time: 06:05:36 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin"
    From: rlborger <rlborger@mac.com>
    Fellow Europaphiles, Richard Holder commented: "The other factor is that the BLS4R17N are about 50 each from E(2004), so the Mod 73 fix is a few quid in resin and maybe an extra 100 plus VAT if a bigger pip pin is required (if they can find any)." If there is an issue with the cost of replacement pip-pins perhaps I can help. McMaster-Carr ( http://www.mcmaster.com/ ) on this side of the pond has of ball lock pins in a wide variety of styles, materials, sizes, mechanisms, etc. It appears that there are a number of pins that would work and are at prices much less than the 50 UKP Go to the web site and search on "ball lock pins" and see what works for new pins. Then let me know how many and I'll see if I can work up a deal on pins at a much better price. Understand, I don't want to take business from E'04, I'd just like to do what I can to reduce the financial impact of these mandatory mods. Good building and great flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, except for testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). Airmaster Prop installed. Electrical complete, except for testing. Fuel system complete except for testing. Working in - 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived and is being installed. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117


    Message 27


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    Time: 08:05:55 PM PST US
    From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    Yes, but trimming nose down is done to lower the angle of attack of the w ing, and thus lower the induced drag, allowing a higher airspeed. It is still pushi ng down, just not as much as at lower speeds. All non symmetrical airfoils that do not have reflex in the trailing edge have a negative CM (pitching moment). This is why the tail is necessary i n the first place. The tailplane provides a downforce that balances the ne gative pitching moment of the wing. In a flying wing design, there is a ne cessity for more washout at the tips and/or reflex in the trailing edge of the wing to counteract the negative CM of the wing (effectively adding down force at the tail). Without the tail, the wing will rotate nose down and then tuck under. Glenn From: mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.comTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 01:43:10 +0100 Glenn, I am not so sure about that statement. As one accellerates, more nose down trim is required - standard in any aeroplane. That implies that if the ta ilplane was taken out of the equation, the aircraft would pitch up - not do wn. Aerodynamicists, am I missing something here?? regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn crowder Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 12:57 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Once the tailplane(s) departed, the wing by itself has a negative pitchin g moment. Once themain wing heads down with nothing to stop it, would norm ally tend to pitch all the way under, which would certainly break the wing attachments. Glenn _________________________________________________________________ Missed the show?- Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN. http://liveearth.msn.com


    Message 28


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    Time: 10:59:49 PM PST US
    From: DuaneFamly@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
    To All, Was I imagining what I read about the accident? Wasn't flutter mentioned as part of the failure equation? If high frequency flutter occurred in flight, might that have caused, maybe, the debonding of the TP6 sleeve. Then the same high frequency flutter of the tailplane might have allowed the tailplane to "walk" on the torque tube. It could only go in one direction, outboard, and would not have to go very far before TP13 drive pins disengaged. Once disengaged, what would the tailplane behave like? Would the flutter drive the tailplane up and down so quickly without the mass balance weight as to cause the tailplane to fail? Or could the aerodynamics from the loose tailplane force the tail up, with the pilot countering this force with the other tailplane? Would it equalize to a controllable point while in flight? A question for the investigators, "Was the pip pin still in it's hole in the torque tube?" Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour




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