Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:31 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (John Price)
2. 01:13 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (josok)
3. 01:52 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Carl Pattinson)
4. 01:59 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Nigel Graham)
5. 03:49 AM - Stade Fly-In Sept. 1-2 (Europa91)
6. 04:03 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (josok)
7. 04:39 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Jan de Jong)
8. 06:01 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Nigel Graham)
9. 06:04 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Carl Pattinson)
10. 07:06 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Carl Pattinson)
11. 07:56 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
12. 08:02 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (William Harrison)
13. 08:40 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (glenn crowder)
14. 09:45 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
15. 09:52 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
16. 10:14 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Richard Iddon)
17. 10:45 AM - Started Mod 73 (Flying Farmer)
18. 10:58 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (josok)
19. 11:00 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (John Price)
20. 01:39 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (glenn crowder)
21. 01:53 PM - Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" (Richard Holder)
22. 02:33 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
23. 02:58 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Graham Singleton)
24. 04:59 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (glenn crowder)
25. 05:45 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Mike Parkin)
26. 06:05 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" (rlborger)
27. 08:05 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (glenn crowder)
28. 10:59 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
14 Hantone HillSince I bought my Europa classic already flying can
anyone advise if there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has
been incorporated.
This may save a lot of problems.
John Price.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Gregory
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Pete/All
I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73
will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail
called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of
issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down
to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I
apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because
I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be
posted on the PFA website until next week.
I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the
PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear
that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if
it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic
Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to
install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root
rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also
improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The
PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this
area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to
incorporate this mod.
Regards
Mike will
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Lawless
Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Hi Mike
Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the
requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end?
Regards
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Gregory
Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
To all Listers
Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association
has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod
73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA
website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK
owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised
FSB 006 at issue 3.
The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within
the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever
is earlier, rather than "before next flight".
There are three steps:
1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube.
2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing
a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded
or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not
capable of being retrofitted.
3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the
need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin
before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod
73 has been complied with.
Fly safely
Mike
Europa Club Safety Officer
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Hi John,
Whether mod 10672 has been incorporated should become clear from the paperwork.
Mechanically you could try to pierce the foam between TP5&6 with a long pin. If
there is glass instead of foam, you will probably be fine.
Then the question remains who will sign it of.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
14 Hantone HillLook down inside each tailplane where the torque tube
goes (using a torch). If you can see foam it hasnt been done. If not
sure use a sharp implement to check.
It should be annotated in the airframe logbook anyway.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Price
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Since I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if
there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated.
This may save a lot of problems.
John Price.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Gregory
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Pete/All
I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73
will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail
called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of
issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down
to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I
apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because
I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be
posted on the PFA website until next week.
I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the
PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear
that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if
it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic
Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to
install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root
rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also
improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The
PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this
area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to
incorporate this mod.
Regards
Mike will
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Lawless
Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Hi Mike
Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the
requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end?
Regards
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Gregory
Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
To all Listers
Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying
Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached
leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available
on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today
to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and
revised FSB 006 at issue 3.
The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within
the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever
is earlier, rather than "before next flight".
There are three steps:
1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube.
2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by
constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are
pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that
10672 is not capable of being retrofitted.
3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the
need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin
before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod
73 has been complied with.
Fly safely
Mike
Europa Club Safety Officer
Message 4
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Subject: | Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
14 Hantone HillJohn,
It's dead easy to tell.
Peer into the open end of the tailplane (you may need a torch/flashlight).
If all you can see down the bore between TP5 and TP6 is blue foam - the mod
has NOT been carried out.
If you can see an unbroken lining of composite laminate - the mod HAS been
carried out.
The paperwork should record this.
Contrary to Mike's memo, this mod is capable of being retro fitted (and
would be the only solution I would trust) - but it would take a lot of
careful work by a very competent composite craftsman.
Might be a good time to start snapping up all those unstarted "Kit One -
Tailplane kits" that are often advertised.
Nigel
Credibility Qualifyer: I'm the bloke that thought-up mod 10672!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Price
Sent: 14 July 2007 08:29
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Since I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if there
is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated.
This may save a lot of problems.
John Price.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Gregory
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Pete/All
I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73
will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail
called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of
issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to
387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise
to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also
understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the
PFA website until next week.
I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA,
which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further
inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the
criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy
will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together
with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft
that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for
all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of
the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin
surface to incorporate this mod.
Regards
Mike will
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless
Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Hi Mike
Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the
requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end?
Regards
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory
Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
To all Listers
Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association
has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73
covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website
tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of
flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at
issue 3.
The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the
next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is
earlier, rather than "before next flight".
There are three steps:
1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube.
2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a
reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or
fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable
of being retrofitted.
3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the
need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before
flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has
been complied with.
Fly safely
Mike
Europa Club Safety Officer
Message 5
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Subject: | Stade Fly-In Sept. 1-2 |
The Europa Fly-In in Stade (EDHS, near Hamburg) this year will take place Saturday
to Sunday, September 1 to 2. Together with the local flying club Luftsportverein
Guenther Grnhoff we would be glad to meet as many Europa flyers and friends
as possible to come. We will have dinner on Saturday evening in nearby Agathenburg
as usual. Accomodation can also be provided upon request. Please inform
us on participation per email (see below) so we can make adequate provisions.
Erich Gabbe, Kit no 91, still building
Europa91@gmx.de
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123750#123750
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Hi Nigel,
It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person for a great idea!
So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about loose bushes!
:-)
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed!
Regards,
Jan de Jong
josok wrote:
>
> Hi Nigel,
> It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person for a great idea!
So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about loose bushes!
> :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Hartstikke bedankt heren, tot u dienst.
What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa Aviation in the late '90s
highlighting the potential problem with the tailplane and proposing that the
tailplane mod be adopted as the standard build procedure. It would have cost
nothing - no extra parts, just a change to build instructions the manual.
In my mail to them, I even predicted a sequence of events that could lead to
a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up of the
aircraft.
No interest was shown whatsoever and I never heard back from them.
When I learned of the in-flight break-up of William's plane, I had a
sickening feeling that I knew what might have happened. The full AAIB report
will confirm (or otherwise) if I was correct but the fact that the
authorities are looking closely at this component leads me to believe I'm on
the money.
m.v.g.
Nigel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de Jong
Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed!
Regards,
Jan de Jong
josok wrote:
>
> Hi Nigel,
> It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person for a great
idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about loose
bushes!
> :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
14 Hantone HillI think many Europa builders realised the stainless steel
rings would cause a problem sooner or later and took steps to mitigate
the problem (such as mod 10672).
I scored each ring (TP6 sleeve) with a hacksaw at 45 degrees around the
circumference and am pretty confident it is secure. There is also a flox
ring surrounding the outside of the stainless steel ring which is bonded
to the plywood sheet and I also have photos to prove it. Problem is it
is bonded to the inboard surface of the plywood insert which under
extreme loads could break away.
Unfortunately the PFA have to assume the worst posible standard of build
and come up with a failsafe remedy.
Personally I think Mod 73 is a somewhat inelegant solution to the
problem and we may yet see further amendments to this design. For my
money I feel its weakness is that it relies on a relatively shallow lip
to prevent a disbonded TP6 sleeve working its way inboard of the
tailplane.
I note from my own photos of the finished layups that about 8-10mm of
TP6 protrudes beyond the outboard end of the plywood insert. Since major
invasive surgery has been deemed necessary it might have been better to
cut an aperture in the underside of the tailplane, cut away the
surrounding foam from the outboard end of the TP6 sleeve and redux a
retaining ring or plate onto the protruding end of the sleeve. Even then
it would be impossible to guarantee the integrity of such a bond.
At least Mod 73 should bring some of the poorer installations up to an
acceptable and safe standard.
Its a pity the original design couldnt have been better but then we all
know hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: Nigel Graham
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
John,
It's dead easy to tell.
Peer into the open end of the tailplane (you may need a
torch/flashlight). If all you can see down the bore between TP5 and TP6
is blue foam - the mod has NOT been carried out.
If you can see an unbroken lining of composite laminate - the mod HAS
been carried out.
The paperwork should record this.
Contrary to Mike's memo, this mod is capable of being retro fitted
(and would be the only solution I would trust) - but it would take a lot
of careful work by a very competent composite craftsman.
Might be a good time to start snapping up all those unstarted "Kit One
- Tailplane kits" that are often advertised.
Nigel
Credibility Qualifyer: I'm the bloke that thought-up mod 10672!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Price
Sent: 14 July 2007 08:29
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Since I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if
there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated.
This may save a lot of problems.
John Price.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Gregory
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Pete/All
I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod
73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the
tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a
copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought
it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the
List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is
important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3
will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week.
I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by
the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear
that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if
it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic
Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to
install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root
rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also
improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The
PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this
area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to
incorporate this mod.
Regards
Mike will
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Lawless
Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Hi Mike
Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the
requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end?
Regards
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Gregory
Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
To all Listers
Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying
Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached
leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available
on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today
to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and
revised FSB 006 at issue 3.
The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required
within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal,
whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight".
There are three steps:
1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube.
2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by
constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are
pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that
10672 is not capable of being retrofitted.
3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of
the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin
before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod
73 has been complied with.
Fly safely
Mike
Europa Club Safety Officer
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 10
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|
Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Im not sure your mod would have prevented Williams accident.
I believe his kit would have been purchased in 1994 and was finished in
1995.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
> <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
>
> Hartstikke bedankt heren, tot u dienst.
>
> What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa Aviation in the late '90s
> highlighting the potential problem with the tailplane and proposing that
> the
> tailplane mod be adopted as the standard build procedure. It would have
> cost
> nothing - no extra parts, just a change to build instructions the manual.
> In my mail to them, I even predicted a sequence of events that could lead
> to
> a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up of the
> aircraft.
> No interest was shown whatsoever and I never heard back from them.
> When I learned of the in-flight break-up of William's plane, I had a
> sickening feeling that I knew what might have happened. The full AAIB
> report
> will confirm (or otherwise) if I was correct but the fact that the
> authorities are looking closely at this component leads me to believe I'm
> on
> the money.
>
> m.v.g.
>
> Nigel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de Jong
> Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
>
>
>
> I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed!
> Regards,
> Jan de Jong
>
> josok wrote:
>>
>> Hi Nigel,
>> It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person for a
>> great
> idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about loose
> bushes!
>> :-)
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jos Okhuijsen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
14 Hantone HillWhile there may be doubt whether the shallow lip on the
inside of TP6 will be adequate as a tailplane retention, it is worth
reading EA2004's reasoning behind Mod 73 carefully: Retention of the
tailplane by TP6 (and the pip pin securing TP6 to the torque tube) AND a
secondary retention by the pip pin and its surrounding composite
structure alone, should the primary retention not hold. The mod is
therefore as much a strengthening of the structure around the pip pin
and a proper transfer of forces acting on the pip pin into the tailplane
skin, as it is a mod for better bonding of TP6 to the tailplane.
This is the reason why the instructions make a point of not removing any
bid/epoxy around the hole on the underside, in the event the pip pin
ball should not open on the underside of the new layup, but instead buy
a longer pip pin. Removing bid/epoxy here would defeat that secondary
retention function of the mod.
As I understand it, this view is also reflected in FSB-006 Issue 3
section 5: Mod 73 need to be done if the upper pip pin recess does not
satisfy the stated requirements. I think, however, that PFA ought to
have required ovalization of the torque tube holes even if Mod 73 may be
omitted if the requirements of Section 5 are complied with -ovalization
should be done in any event, I think.
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
I have heard that there are still doubts in the AAIB investigation
about whether the initial failure was the wing pin (with
consequential failure of the tail) or the other way around. Hence we
are being required to cover both hypotheses by mods and checks front
and back.
If it was indeed the wing pin which failed first - very big "if" -
then the implication is that the tail could/would have then failed
because it was subject to loads it had never been designed for
(perhaps a sudden pitch or roll or yaw?) , and not because there was
anything wrong with it - it would have been a consequential event,
not a causal one. You might also feel that if the wing pin had failed
then the aircraft may have been doomed whether or not the tail broke
up. If this is true then perhaps neither mod 73 nor Nigel's mod
would have saved the day.
A supporting thought to this hypothesis is that the build quality
around the wing pin on the crash aircraft is known to have been poor.
Also, the aircraft is known to have been returning from a Permit
inspection when the wings would have been removed and replaced.
Perhaps in refitting the wing, some damage was done to the already
compromised wing pin?
Just a thought.
Willie Harrison
On 14 Jul 2007, at 15:05, Carl Pattinson wrote:
> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> Im not sure your mod would have prevented Williams accident.
>
> I believe his kit would have been purchased in 1994 and was
> finished in 1995.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Graham"
> <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:59 PM
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
>
>
>> <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>
>>
>> Hartstikke bedankt heren, tot u dienst.
>>
>> What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa Aviation in the
>> late '90s
>> highlighting the potential problem with the tailplane and
>> proposing that the
>> tailplane mod be adopted as the standard build procedure. It would
>> have cost
>> nothing - no extra parts, just a change to build instructions the
>> manual.
>> In my mail to them, I even predicted a sequence of events that
>> could lead to
>> a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up
>> of the
>> aircraft.
>> No interest was shown whatsoever and I never heard back from them.
>> When I learned of the in-flight break-up of William's plane, I had a
>> sickening feeling that I knew what might have happened. The full
>> AAIB report
>> will confirm (or otherwise) if I was correct but the fact that the
>> authorities are looking closely at this component leads me to
>> believe I'm on
>> the money.
>>
>> m.v.g.
>>
>> Nigel
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de
>> Jong
>> Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
>>
>>
>> <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>
>>
>> I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed!
>> Regards,
>> Jan de Jong
>>
>> josok wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Nigel,
>>> It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person
>>> for a great
>> idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about
>> loose
>> bushes!
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jos Okhuijsen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
I wonder about the integrity of the elevator mass balance in the accident
aircraft. If the
mass balance had become disengaged for any reason, then the slightest distu
rbance in pitch
could cause the elevator to become uncontrollable. This would be consisten
t with the report
of wild pitch excursions initially prior to the tail departing.
Glenn> From: willie.harrison@tiny
online.co.uk> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73> Date: Sa
t, 14 Jul 2007 16:01:35 +0100> To: europa-list@matronics.com> > --> Europa-
List message posted by: William Harrison <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
> > I have heard that there are still doubts in the AAIB investigation > ab
out whether the initial failure was the wing pin (with > consequential fail
ure of the tail) or the other way around. Hence we > are being required to
cover both hypotheses by mods and checks front > and back.> > If it was ind
eed the wing pin which failed first - very big "if" - > then the implicatio
n is that the tail could/would have then failed > because it was subject to
loads it had never been designed for > (perhaps a sudden pitch or roll or
yaw?) , and not because there was > anything wrong with it - it would have
been a consequential event, > not a causal one. You might also feel that if
the wing pin had failed > then the aircraft may have been doomed whether o
r not the tail broke > up. If this is true then perhaps neither mod 73 nor
Nigel's mod > would have saved the day.> > A supporting thought to this hyp
othesis is that the build quality > around the wing pin on the crash aircra
ft is known to have been poor. > Also, the aircraft is known to have been r
eturning from a Permit > inspection when the wings would have been removed
and replaced. > Perhaps in refitting the wing, some damage was done to the
already > compromised wing pin?> > Just a thought.> > Willie Harrison> > >
> On 14 Jul 2007, at 15:05, Carl Pattinson wrote:> > > --> Europa-List mess
age posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > > <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>> >> > Im
not sure your mod would have prevented Williams accident.> >> > I believe h
is kit would have been purchased in 1994 and was > > finished in 1995.> >>
>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Graham" > > <nigel_graham@bt
connect.com>> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>> > Sent: Saturday, July 14,
2007 1:59 PM> > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73> >> >>
connect.com>> >>> >> Hartstikke bedankt heren, tot u dienst.> >>> >> What r
eally saddens me is that I wrote to Europa Aviation in the > >> late '90s>
>> highlighting the potential problem with the tailplane and > >> proposing
that the> >> tailplane mod be adopted as the standard build procedure. It
would > >> have cost> >> nothing - no extra parts, just a change to build i
nstructions the > >> manual.> >> In my mail to them, I even predicted a seq
uence of events that > >> could lead to> >> a tailplane becoming detached a
nd the resulting in-flight break-up > >> of the> >> aircraft.> >> No intere
st was shown whatsoever and I never heard back from them.> >> When I learne
d of the in-flight break-up of William's plane, I had a> >> sickening feeli
ng that I knew what might have happened. The full > >> AAIB report> >> will
confirm (or otherwise) if I was correct but the fact that the> >> authorit
ies are looking closely at this component leads me to > >> believe I'm on>
>> the money.> >>> >> m.v.g.> >>> >> Nigel> >>> >> -----Original Message---
--> >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> >> [mailto:owner-europ
a-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de > >> Jong> >> Sent: 14 July
2007 12:46> >> To: europa-list@matronics.com> >> Subject: Re: Europa-List:
an de Jong > >> <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>> >>> >> I am glad to second that. T
hank you very much indeed!> >> Regards,> >> Jan de Jong> >>> >> josok wrote
>>> Hi Nigel,> >>> It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right
person > >>> for a great> >> idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't h
ave to worry about > >> loose> >> bushes!> >>> :-)> >>>> >>> Regards,> >>>>
>>> Jos Okhuijsen> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Visit - www.EuropaOwn
ers.org> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>
=====> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Missed the show?- Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN.
http://liveearth.msn.com
Message 14
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Subject: | Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
>
>
> I wonder about the integrity of the elevator mass balance in the accident
>aircraft. If the
>mass balance had become disengaged for any reason, then the slightest
>disturbance in pitch
>could cause the elevator to become uncontrollable. This would be
>consistent with the report
>of wild pitch excursions initially prior to the tail departing.
I am not so sure about the above. A failing mass balance would have the same
effect as pushing the stick forward. The pilot would instinctively pull back
the stick and regain level flight. Maximum trim would then reduce that load
a little, but there should be no real problem in maintaining ccordinated
flight with the stick held back.
Karl
>
> Glenn> From:
>willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa
>Tailplane - Mod 73> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:01:35 +0100> To:
>Harrison <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>> > I have heard that there are
>still doubts in the AAIB investigation > about whether the initial failure
>was the wing pin (with > consequential failure of the tail) or the other
>way around. Hence we > are being required to cover both hypotheses by mods
>and checks front > and back.> > If it was indeed the wing pin which failed
>first - very big "if" - > then the implication is that the tail could/would
>have then failed > because it was subject to loads it had never been
>designed for > (perhaps a sudden pitch or roll or yaw?) , and not because
>there was > anything wrong with it - it would have been a consequential
>event, > not a causal one. You might also feel that if the wing pin had
>failed > then the aircraft may have been doomed whether or not the tail
>broke > up. If this is true then perhaps neither mod 73 nor Nigel's mod >
>would have saved the day.> > A supporting thought to this hypothesis is
>that the build quality > around the wing pin on the crash aircraft is known
>to have been poor. > Also, the aircraft is known to have been returning
>from a Permit > inspection when the wings would have been removed and
>replaced. > Perhaps in refitting the wing, some damage was done to the
>already > compromised wing pin?> > Just a thought.> > Willie Harrison> > >
> > On 14 Jul 2007, at 15:05, Carl Pattinson wrote:> > > --> Europa-List
>message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > > <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>> >> >
>Im not sure your mod would have prevented Williams accident.> >> > I
>believe his kit would have been purchased in 1994 and was > > finished in
>1995.> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Graham" > >
><nigel_graham@btconnect.com>> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>> > Sent:
>Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:59 PM> > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa
>Graham" > >> <nigel_graham@btconnect.com>> >>> >> Hartstikke bedankt heren,
>tot u dienst.> >>> >> What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa
>Aviation in the > >> late '90s> >> highlighting the potential problem with
>the tailplane and > >> proposing that the> >> tailplane mod be adopted as
>the standard build procedure. It would > >> have cost> >> nothing - no
>extra parts, just a change to build instructions the > >> manual.> >> In my
>mail to them, I even predicted a sequence of events that > >> could lead
>to> >> a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up >
> >> of the> >> aircraft.> >> No interest was shown whatsoever and I never
>heard back from them.> >> When I learned of the in-flight break-up of
>William's plane, I had a> >> sickening feeling that I knew what might have
>happened. The full > >> AAIB report> >> will confirm (or otherwise) if I
>was correct but the fact that the> >> authorities are looking closely at
>this component leads me to > >> believe I'm on> >> the money.> >>> >>
>m.v.g.> >>> >> Nigel> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From:
>owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> >>
>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de > >>
>Jong> >> Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46> >> To: europa-list@matronics.com> >>
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73> >>> >>> >> -->
>Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong > >> <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>>
> >>> >> I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed!> >> Regards,>
> >> Jan de Jong> >>> >> josok wrote:> >>> --> Europa-List message posted
>by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>> >>>> >>> Hi Nigel,> >>> It's a seldom
>opportonity to be able to thank the right person > >>> for a great> >>
>idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about > >>
>loose> >> bushes!> >>> :-)> >>>> >>> Regards,> >>>> >>> Jos Okhuijsen> >>>>
> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org> >>>> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>=====> > >
>_________________________________________________________________
>Missed the show? Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN.
>http://liveearth.msn.com
_________________________________________________________________
Tell MSN about your most memorable emails! http://www.emailbritain.co.uk/
Message 15
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|
Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Can anyone explain to me how the tailplane can possibly move outward by even
a millimeter when the pip pin head is resting firmly against a solid wall on
the inboard side, whether this is epoxy, glass, wood or anything else ?
Where are these huge forces that would pull this pin sideways through the
surrounding foam body ? Is a loose TP6 really such a big problem, apart from
making it difficult if not impossible to rig the tailplane ?
Regards,
Karl
>From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
>Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:54:16 +0200
>
>14 Hantone HillWhile there may be doubt whether the shallow lip on the
>inside of TP6 will be adequate as a tailplane retention, it is worth
>reading EA2004's reasoning behind Mod 73 carefully: Retention of the
>tailplane by TP6 (and the pip pin securing TP6 to the torque tube) AND a
>secondary retention by the pip pin and its surrounding composite structure
>alone, should the primary retention not hold. The mod is therefore as much
>a strengthening of the structure around the pip pin and a proper transfer
>of forces acting on the pip pin into the tailplane skin, as it is a mod for
>better bonding of TP6 to the tailplane.
>
>This is the reason why the instructions make a point of not removing any
>bid/epoxy around the hole on the underside, in the event the pip pin ball
>should not open on the underside of the new layup, but instead buy a longer
>pip pin. Removing bid/epoxy here would defeat that secondary retention
>function of the mod.
>
>As I understand it, this view is also reflected in FSB-006 Issue 3 section
>5: Mod 73 need to be done if the upper pip pin recess does not satisfy the
>stated requirements. I think, however, that PFA ought to have required
>ovalization of the torque tube holes even if Mod 73 may be omitted if the
>requirements of Section 5 are complied with -ovalization should be done in
>any event, I think.
>
>Regards,
>Svein
>LN-SKJ
_________________________________________________________________
Tell Hotmail about an email that changed your life!
http://www.emailbritain.co.uk/
Message 16
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Subject: | Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Nigel,
Can you tell me where I can find details of mod 10672 as I can=92t
locate
it on the Europa Aircraft web site?
Richard Iddon G-RIXS
13/07/2007 15:41
13/07/2007 15:41
Message 17
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|
All
Starting the mod 73, as my tail planes are still in the workshop and not filled
or painted; In I went with the knife.
I have found that the TP6 bush measures at 50mm from the face of the inboard side
of the outboard rib. This puts it 10mm inboard more than the, instructions
on the Mod 73 paper work, in turn will make the span wise diameter 60mm instead
of the described 50mm.
Before I continue, I ask is anyone finding the same measurements?
I have checked the first instillation of the TP6 from the manual and I fine it
is as it should be.
Thank You
Richard Wheelwright.
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Hi Richsrd,
http://www.europaclub.org.uk/mods/improved_tp5_and_tp6_sleeve_retention.shtml
Europa club pages,
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
14 Hantone HillIts on the Europa club website builders pages I think.
Thanks for the what ' to look for' Nigel.
John Price.
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Iddon
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 6:13 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Nigel,
Can you tell me where I can find details of mod 10672 as I can=92t
locate it on the Europa Aircraft web site?
Richard Iddon G-RIXS
13/07/2007 15:41
13/07/2007 15:41
Message 20
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|
Subject: | Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Yeah, I got that but without mass balancing, the elevator could tend to s
lam up or down
to the stops, possibly ripping the stick out of the pilots hands. One or t
wo oscillations of
this sort and the tail would come off for sure.
Glenn> From: kheindl@msn.c
om> To: europa-list@matronics.com> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailpla
ne - Mod 73> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 17:43:49 +0100> > --> Europa-List messa
ge posted by: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl@msn.com>> > > > > > > >> >> > I wonder
about the integrity of the elevator mass balance in the accident > >aircra
ft. If the> >mass balance had become disengaged for any reason, then the sl
ightest > >disturbance in pitch> >could cause the elevator to become uncont
rollable. This would be > >consistent with the report> >of wild pitch excur
sions initially prior to the tail departing.> > > I am not so sure about th
e above. A failing mass balance would have the same > effect as pushing the
stick forward. The pilot would instinctively pull back > the stick and reg
ain level flight. Maximum trim would then reduce that load > a little, but
there should be no real problem in maintaining ccordinated > flight with th
e stick held back.> > Karl> > > >> > Glenn> From: > >willie.harrison@tinyon
line.co.uk> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa > >Tailplane - Mod 73> Date: S
at, 14 Jul 2007 16:01:35 +0100> To: > >europa-list@matronics.com> > --> Eur
opa-List message posted by: William > >Harrison <willie.harrison@tinyonline
.co.uk>> > I have heard that there are > >still doubts in the AAIB investig
ation > about whether the initial failure > >was the wing pin (with > conse
quential failure of the tail) or the other > >way around. Hence we > are be
ing required to cover both hypotheses by mods > >and checks front > and bac
k.> > If it was indeed the wing pin which failed > >first - very big "if" -
> then the implication is that the tail could/would > >have then failed >
because it was subject to loads it had never been > >designed for > (perhap
s a sudden pitch or roll or yaw?) , and not because > >there was > anything
wrong with it - it would have been a consequential > >event, > not a causa
l one. You might also feel that if the wing pin had > >failed > then the ai
rcraft may have been doomed whether or not the tail > >broke > up. If this
is true then perhaps neither mod 73 nor Nigel's mod > > >would have saved t
he day.> > A supporting thought to this hypothesis is > >that the build qua
lity > around the wing pin on the crash aircraft is known > >to have been p
oor. > Also, the aircraft is known to have been returning > >from a Permit
> inspection when the wings would have been removed and > >replaced. > Perh
aps in refitting the wing, some damage was done to the > >already > comprom
ised wing pin?> > Just a thought.> > Willie Harrison> > > > > > On 14 Jul 2
007, at 15:05, Carl Pattinson wrote:> > > --> Europa-List > >message posted
by: "Carl Pattinson" > > <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>> >> > > >Im not sur
e your mod would have prevented Williams accident.> >> > I > >believe his k
it would have been purchased in 1994 and was > > finished in > >1995.> >> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Graham" > > > ><nigel_graham@
btconnect.com>> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>> > Sent: > >Saturday, Jul
y 14, 2007 1:59 PM> > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa > >Tailplane - Mod 7
l_graham@btconnect.com>> >>> >> Hartstikke bedankt heren, > >tot u dienst.>
>>> >> What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa > >Aviation in the
> >> late '90s> >> highlighting the potential problem with > >the tailplan
e and > >> proposing that the> >> tailplane mod be adopted as > >the standa
rd build procedure. It would > >> have cost> >> nothing - no > >extra parts
, just a change to build instructions the > >> manual.> >> In my > >mail to
them, I even predicted a sequence of events that > >> could lead > >to> >>
a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up > > > >
> of the> >> aircraft.> >> No interest was shown whatsoever and I never > >
heard back from them.> >> When I learned of the in-flight break-up of > >Wi
lliam's plane, I had a> >> sickening feeling that I knew what might have >
>happened. The full > >> AAIB report> >> will confirm (or otherwise) if I >
>was correct but the fact that the> >> authorities are looking closely at
> >this component leads me to > >> believe I'm on> >> the money.> >>> >> >
>m.v.g.> >>> >> Nigel> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From: > >owner
-europa-list-server@matronics.com> >> > >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@m
atronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de > >> > >Jong> >> Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46>
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com> >> > >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa T
ailplane - Mod 73> >>> >>> >> --> > >Europa-List message posted by: Jan de
Jong > >> <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>> > > >>> >> I am glad to second that. Tha
nk you very much indeed!> >> Regards,> > > >> Jan de Jong> >>> >> josok wro
te:> >>> --> Europa-List message posted > >by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>>
>>>> >>> Hi Nigel,> >>> It's a seldom > >opportonity to be able to thank th
e right person > >>> for a great> >> > >idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy tha
t i don't have to worry about > >> > >loose> >> bushes!> >>> :-)> >>>> >>>
Regards,> >>>> >>> Jos Okhuijsen> >>>> > > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Vis
it - www.EuropaOwners.org> >>>> >>>> >>>> > > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>=====> > >> >______________________________
___________________________________> >Missed the show? Watch videos of the
Live Earth Concert on MSN.> >http://liveearth.msn.com> > _________________
________________________________________________> Tell MSN about your most
====> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one pla
ce! Find it!
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Subject: | Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" |
> This is the reason why the instructions make a point of
> not removing any bid/epoxy around the hole on the
> underside, in the event the pip pin ball should not
> open on the underside of the new layup, but instead buy
> a longer pip pin. Removing bid/epoxy here would
> defeat that secondary retention function of the mod.
I am going to disagree with this. I think this requirement
to "buy a bigger pip-pin" is unreasonable.
Firstly, the amount of bid/resin required to be removed to
get the pip pin to release its balls is tiny - see how big
the balls are ! Maybe a ring of 25 thou of resin/bid would
need to be removed.
Secondly I understand that the pip pin BLS4R17N is
somewhat out of fashion and that it and BLS4R07N (much
shorter) are the only ones readily available.
BLS4R17N is a 1 3/4 inch pip pin. There are 2 inch pip
pins available in a different style but with much larger
heads.
The other factor is that the BLS4R17N are about 50 each
from E(2004), so the Mod 73 fix is a few quid in resin and
maybe an extra 100 plus VAT if a bigger pip pin is
required (if they can find any).
It may be that E(2004) can be persuaded to charge only
cost price for the longer pip pins (around 20 - 25
maybe). This problem is after all a design problem.
Hunkering down down to avoid all the flack that will
probably come my way.
Richard
G-OWWW grounded now for 5 weeks :-(
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" |
Or, for those of us that don't take off the tailplanes (except now every 10
hours) a bolt and a nut (or wing nut and securing ring)?!
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Holder" <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 9:52 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin"
>
>> This is the reason why the instructions make a point of
>> not removing any bid/epoxy around the hole on the underside, in the
>> event the pip pin ball should not open on the underside of the new layup,
>> but instead buy
>> a longer pip pin. Removing bid/epoxy here would
>> defeat that secondary retention function of the mod.
>
> I am going to disagree with this. I think this requirement
> to "buy a bigger pip-pin" is unreasonable.
>
> Firstly, the amount of bid/resin required to be removed to
> get the pip pin to release its balls is tiny - see how big
> the balls are ! Maybe a ring of 25 thou of resin/bid would
> need to be removed.
>
> Secondly I understand that the pip pin BLS4R17N is
> somewhat out of fashion and that it and BLS4R07N (much
> shorter) are the only ones readily available.
>
> BLS4R17N is a 1 3/4 inch pip pin. There are 2 inch pip
> pins available in a different style but with much larger
> heads.
>
> The other factor is that the BLS4R17N are about 50 each
> from E(2004), so the Mod 73 fix is a few quid in resin and
> maybe an extra 100 plus VAT if a bigger pip pin is
> required (if they can find any).
>
> It may be that E(2004) can be persuaded to charge only
> cost price for the longer pip pins (around 20 - 25
> maybe). This problem is after all a design problem.
>
> Hunkering down down to avoid all the flack that will
> probably come my way.
>
> Richard
> G-OWWW grounded now for 5 weeks :-(
>
>
>
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
What I still don't understand is that the wings came off and from the
information to date there was not enough speed to pull the wings off.
Incomplete information it would appear. Wings should not fail at any
speed less than about 125 knots? That's what max rough air speed means.
Graham
glenn crowder wrote:
> Yeah, I got that but without mass balancing, the elevator could tend
> to slam up or down
> to the stops, possibly ripping the stick out of the pilots hands. One
> or two oscillations of
> this sort and the tail would come off for sure.
>
> Glenn
>
Message 24
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Subject: | Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Once the tailplane(s) departed, the wing by itself has a negative pitchin
g moment. Once the
main wing heads down with nothing to stop it, would normally tend to pitch
all the way under, which would certainly break the wing attachments.
Glenn> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007
23:01:30 +0100> From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> To: europa-list@matr
onics.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73> > --> Europ
a-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
> > What I still don't understand is that the wings came off and from the >
information to date there was not enough speed to pull the wings off. > In
complete information it would appear. Wings should not fail at any > speed
less than about 125 knots? That's what max rough air speed means.> Graham>
> glenn crowder wrote:> > Yeah, I got that but without mass balancing, the
elevator could tend > > to slam up or down> > to the stops, possibly rippin
g the stick out of the pilots hands. One > > or two oscillations of> > this
========================> _
=======> > >
_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazine=92s 2007 editors=92 choice for best web mail=97award-winning Wi
ndows Live Hotmail.
ration_HMWL_mini_pcmag_0707
Message 25
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Glenn,
I am not so sure about that statement. As one accellerates, more nose
down trim is required - standard in any aeroplane. That implies that if
the tailplane was taken out of the equation, the aircraft would pitch up
- not down. Aerodynamicists, am I missing something here??
regards,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: glenn crowder
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 12:57 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Once the tailplane(s) departed, the wing by itself has a negative
pitching moment. Once the
main wing heads down with nothing to stop it, would normally tend to
pitch all the way under, which would certainly break the wing
attachments.
Glenn
Message 26
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" |
Fellow Europaphiles,
Richard Holder commented:
"The other factor is that the BLS4R17N are about 50 each
from E(2004), so the Mod 73 fix is a few quid in resin and
maybe an extra 100 plus VAT if a bigger pip pin is
required (if they can find any)."
If there is an issue with the cost of replacement pip-pins perhaps I
can help. McMaster-Carr ( http://www.mcmaster.com/ ) on this side of
the pond has of ball lock pins in a wide variety of styles,
materials, sizes, mechanisms, etc. It appears that there are a
number of pins that would work and are at prices much less than the
50 UKP Go to the web site and search on "ball lock pins" and see
what works for new pins. Then let me know how many and I'll see if I
can work up a deal on pins at a much better price. Understand, I
don't want to take business from E'04, I'd just like to do what I can
to reduce the financial impact of these mandatory mods.
Good building and great flying,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch
system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in,
Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar
in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear
complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, except for
testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). Airmaster Prop
installed. Electrical complete, except for testing. Fuel system
complete except for testing. Working in - 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches &
35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05.
Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived and is
being installed.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
Message 27
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Subject: | Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Yes, but trimming nose down is done to lower the angle of attack of the w
ing, and
thus lower the induced drag, allowing a higher airspeed. It is still pushi
ng down, just not
as much as at lower speeds.
All non symmetrical airfoils that do not have reflex in the trailing edge
have a negative CM (pitching moment). This is why the tail is necessary i
n the first place. The tailplane provides a downforce that balances the ne
gative pitching moment of the wing. In a flying wing design, there is a ne
cessity for more washout at the tips and/or reflex in the trailing edge of
the wing to counteract the negative CM of the wing (effectively adding down
force at the tail).
Without the tail, the wing will rotate nose down and then tuck under.
Glenn
From: mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.comTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject:
Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 01:43:10
+0100
Glenn,
I am not so sure about that statement. As one accellerates, more nose down
trim is required - standard in any aeroplane. That implies that if the ta
ilplane was taken out of the equation, the aircraft would pitch up - not do
wn. Aerodynamicists, am I missing something here??
regards,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: glenn crowder
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 12:57 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Once the tailplane(s) departed, the wing by itself has a negative pitchin
g moment. Once themain wing heads down with nothing to stop it, would norm
ally tend to pitch all the way under, which would certainly break the wing
attachments. Glenn
_________________________________________________________________
Missed the show?- Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN.
http://liveearth.msn.com
Message 28
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Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
To All,
Was I imagining what I read about the accident? Wasn't flutter mentioned as
part of the failure equation? If high frequency flutter occurred in flight,
might that have caused, maybe, the debonding of the TP6 sleeve. Then the same
high frequency flutter of the tailplane might have allowed the tailplane to
"walk" on the torque tube. It could only go in one direction, outboard, and
would not have to go very far before TP13 drive pins disengaged. Once
disengaged, what would the tailplane behave like? Would the flutter drive the
tailplane up and down so quickly without the mass balance weight as to cause the
tailplane to fail? Or could the aerodynamics from the loose tailplane force the
tail up, with the pilot countering this force with the other tailplane? Would
it equalize to a controllable point while in flight? A question for the
investigators, "Was the pip pin still in it's hole in the torque tube?"
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
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