Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:01 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (R.C.Harrison)
2. 03:42 AM - Further updates - Mod 73 (David.Corbett)
3. 04:59 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
4. 05:32 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Jeremy Davey)
5. 07:23 AM - Re: Tailplane retention (glenn crowder)
6. 08:07 AM - Re: Tailplane retention (Karl Heindl)
7. 08:10 AM - Oshkosh Lunch Bunch Update (ALAN YERLY)
8. 08:24 AM - RF skin effect and wave length as it pertains to transponder antenna placement (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
9. 08:44 AM - Tailplane retention (Fred Klein)
10. 09:17 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Graham Singleton)
11. 09:37 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (William Harrison)
12. 09:37 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Nigel Graham)
13. 09:58 AM - Re: Tailplane retention (Carl Pattinson)
14. 10:34 AM - Mod 73 (kevin siggery)
15. 10:46 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
16. 11:02 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Graham Singleton)
17. 12:54 PM - Re: Tailplane retention (Paul Atkinson)
18. 01:01 PM - Re: Mod 73 (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
19. 01:26 PM - Re: Transponders (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
20. 01:32 PM - Mod 73-any pictures of work in progress? (morg42)
21. 03:02 PM - Re: Mod 73-any pictures of work in progress? (Carl Pattinson)
22. 03:04 PM - Re: Transponders (Paul McAllister)
23. 03:06 PM - Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" Cost (Paul McAllister)
24. 04:22 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" Cost (Graham Singleton)
25. 04:24 PM - Re: Transponders (Graham Singleton)
26. 04:29 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Graham Singleton)
27. 05:26 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Karl Heindl)
28. 06:14 PM - Re: Transponders (europa flugzeug fabrik)
29. 07:24 PM - Colson Caster for a Tailwheel (Paul McAllister)
30. 09:30 PM - Re: Transponders (europa flugzeug fabrik)
31. 09:42 PM - Re: Oshkosh Lunch Bunch Update (Michael Grass)
32. 10:30 PM - Re: Colson Caster for a Tailwheel (Euan Nichol)
33. 10:30 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Mike Parkin)
34. 10:38 PM - Re: Colson Caster for a Tailwheel (Fred Klein)
35. 11:09 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Graham Singleton)
36. 11:10 PM - Re: Tailplane retention (Graham Singleton)
37. 11:37 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Mike Parkin)
38. 11:40 PM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (josok)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Karl
IMHO You are dicing with trouble!
You will find that One of the main problems will be that the foam will
expand considerably where the heat is (the rest of the unheated foam
acts as a thermal insulator ) so you will get differential expansion on
a grand scale meaning considerable buckling. Been there done that!
The only chance of applying any heat anywhere will be by gradual heat
sink over many hours and over the whole item and then similarly cooling
over many hours as post curing was required on the original build.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: 16 July 2007 01:36
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Graham,
I could be wrong, but I don't agree. I think I can control the heat
precisely to a localized area and not damage any foam.
Karl
Message 2
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| Subject: | Further updates - Mod 73 |
Hello, Richard (who asked a specific question),
There was so much repeated/repeated/repeated mail on this morning's forum
digest that I cannot be bothered to look for your actual question.
138kb for 43 simple messages shows that the rules of the forum are not being
obeyed!
The answer is that aircraft 10 - which had its TP6's centred on the plywood
rib, before the instruction manual was changed, has 20 mm showing inboard of
the rib.
The other 2 aircraft have between 25 and 30 mm.
To have 50 mm showing would be a considerable concern to me.
Update for everyone
Francis Donaldson rang me this morning to ask how I was getting on; I
referred him to my first update. Now I have three further points:
1 Francis asked about pip pin length - I did not know the answer
when he called, but I can now confirm that, for 76 and 265, the pip pins
require a 6.5 mm drill (not 1/4 as in the Europa mod instruction) to open up
the lay-up over the bottom hole. I actually found it easier to open up from
inside the new pip pin recess (shining a torch through from the "top"
surface hole) using a much smaller bit, and then progressively enlarge the
hole to the correct size; a small round file helps. The pip pins for 76 and
265 are long enough to go through the TP6 and the new lay-up; in fact I used
a 120 degree countersink bit in my fingers just to tidy up the edge left by
the drill bit.
2 Aircraft 10 appears to have 1/4 diameter pip pins - and as the
pip pins are not here, I cannot comment on the length at this stage.
3 There is an RV9A/WAM 120 being built in my workshop, and the
engineers amongst the team (who only build on Mondays) were curious about
different aircraft having different diameter TP4's; caliper measurement has
revealed that there is no difference in internal TP6 diameter, so why a/c
10's tailplanes would not fit onto either 76 or 265's TP4 is a mystery,
which will not be solved!
Now to lay up the covers.
David
Message 3
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| Subject: | Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the warning. But, a) I have no intention of doing anything to my
tailplanes for quite a while, while all the dust settles. I am quite happy
with my tailplane retention the way it is right now.
b) I would have no problem heating the TP6 gradually with precise
temperature control, and in any case I would do a trial run on a separate
prepared piece of foam.
Now Fred Klein wants to implement another good mod, but I think the PFA has
already stated that pre-skinned tailplanes are not affected.
Regards,
Karl
>From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 08:59:23 +0100
>
>
>Karl
>IMHO You are dicing with trouble!
>You will find that One of the main problems will be that the foam will
>expand considerably where the heat is (the rest of the unheated foam
>acts as a thermal insulator ) so you will get differential expansion on
>a grand scale meaning considerable buckling. Been there done that!
>The only chance of applying any heat anywhere will be by gradual heat
>sink over many hours and over the whole item and then similarly cooling
>over many hours as post curing was required on the original build.
>
>Regards
>Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
>Sent: 16 July 2007 01:36
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
>
>
>
>Graham,
>
>I could be wrong, but I don't agree. I think I can control the heat
>precisely to a localized area and not damage any foam.
>
>Karl
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk
Message 4
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| Subject: | Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Karl,
Sorry to differ, but I believe that's not so. Pre-skinned tailplanes ARE
affected - the only ones that are possibly not affected are the pre-moulded
ones, and to the best of my knowledge there are only two sets of those: on
Peter Kember's new bird, and on the old factory demonstrator G-GBXS.
Has anyone come up with a reason for overlapping the lower skin instead of
using a flox corner yet?
Regards,
Jeremy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: 16 July 2007 12:58
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the warning. But, a) I have no intention of doing anything to my
tailplanes for quite a while, while all the dust settles. I am quite happy
with my tailplane retention the way it is right now.
b) I would have no problem heating the TP6 gradually with precise
temperature control, and in any case I would do a trial run on a separate
prepared piece of foam.
Now Fred Klein wants to implement another good mod, but I think the PFA has
already stated that pre-skinned tailplanes are not affected.
Regards,
Karl
>From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 08:59:23 +0100
>
>
>Karl
>IMHO You are dicing with trouble!
>You will find that One of the main problems will be that the foam will
>expand considerably where the heat is (the rest of the unheated foam
>acts as a thermal insulator ) so you will get differential expansion on
>a grand scale meaning considerable buckling. Been there done that!
>The only chance of applying any heat anywhere will be by gradual heat
>sink over many hours and over the whole item and then similarly cooling
>over many hours as post curing was required on the original build.
>
>Regards
>Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
>Sent: 16 July 2007 01:36
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
>
>
>
>Graham,
>
>I could be wrong, but I don't agree. I think I can control the heat
>precisely to a localized area and not damage any foam.
>
>Karl
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk
Message 5
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| Subject: | Tailplane retention |
I like it. I'm doing it this way rather than trying to improve the TP6 b
ond! Thats nuts!
Glenn> Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007
22:57:39 -0700> Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane retention> From: fklein@or
casonline.com> To: europa-list@matronics.com> > --> Europa-List message pos
ted by: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>> > Far be it for me, a humble l
ate-builder, to chime in on this very > technical discussion thread; noneth
eless, in the spirit of "open source > communication" with its underlying p
remise that an optimal solution to > the problem will arise out of the clam
or, I have a few thoughts to > share. If I seem long-winded, my apologies,
but clarity is my goal, as > I've had difficulty understanding some of the
posts of others whose > brevity obscured (at least to me) some aspects of t
heir intent.> > As I look at my "pre-glassed" tailplanes which came w/ my "
accelerated" > kit, the first thing I notice is that the pip pin recesses a
s supplied > bear no resemblance to the drawings in the manual...at the ski
n > surface, the recesses are round...about 1.25" diameter...and taper down
> to a .50" hemisphere in which is centered the hole for the pip pin. So >
I really have no assurance as to what extent the TP6 is properly bonded >
in or exactly what is going on...I ponder this while reading about > variat
ions (such as TP6 location) which others are discovering.> > As I review Mo
d 73 and digest the insightful posts regarding the > process of accomplishi
ng it, I can't escape my sense that...while it's > doable and apparently (a
t least to those with both the hands-on > building skills and technical kno
wledge to make such an assessment) > solves the problem...the mod seems lik
e a bit of a band aid solution. > If I understand it correctly, it relies u
pon a proper bond between a > small crescent of a portion of TP6 to some bi
d cloth which transfers > any loads to the skin of the tailplane....I quest
ion whether I want to > rely on that bond to resist impacts from normal (an
d sometimes not so > normal) rigging.> > If the fundamental goal is to simp
ly keep the TP12 pins fully engaged, > I'm looking elsewhere from the pip p
ins.> > I'm looking at the tailplane root close out which, on my tailplanes
, > looks like about .088" of solid FG skin. I'm referring to the flanges >
which measure a full inch in width...from edge to innermost surface of > t
he inboard plywood insert with the bushes which receive the TP12 pins.> > I
liked Carl P.'s suggestion (as I understood it) of a hardened steel > pin
extending thru both top and bottom skins and lying inboard of the > TP12 dr
iveplate. The FG flange could be suitably reinforced...perhaps > with an em
bedded plate which could be threaded to receive a threaded > rod, thus elim
inating fasteners extending beyond the plane of the > tailplane surface. I
did not understand Carl's calling for the rod to > be 9" long, as the depth
of the tailplane at the root is just under 5", > but perhaps that was a ty
po. The beauty of Carl's suggestion is that it > is simple and direct...it
is completely visable anytime the tailplane > is slid away from the fuselag
e an inch or so...and the condition of the > "fix" can be monitored at any
time in the future.> > Now that FG flange is only 1" wide, and the TP12 fla
nges measure 7/16", > and the bushes sit 1/16" proud of the glassed plywood
...so...after a > (let's say) 1/4" dia. hole is drilled for a hardened stee
l pin to slide > past the TP12 drive plate, there's only a 1/4" left of the
flange. It > would be sufficient however if the flange were reinforced wit
h an > embedded plate which would allow the forces to be transferred to bot
h > the top and bottom skins.> > The steel pin could be cut flush top and b
ottom; perhaps only the > bottom plate would be threaded, and the top end o
f the pin could be > slotted for a screwdriver so the pin could be turned i
n place (and > perhaps loctite'd?). For redundancy, there could be two pins
per side > as Carl P. suggested for the faint of heart.> > With such a sol
ution, the uncertainties of the conditions of the foam, > flox, TP5 placeme
nt, and other issues around the pip pins become > irrelevant.> > Amen...tha
nks for wading through this post.> > In the time it's taken me to write thi
s, I may well have been able to > install Mod 73...and...there's always bee
=====> > >
_________________________________________________________________
See what you=92re getting into=85before you go there.
http://newlivehotmail.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Tailplane retention |
Regarding Carl's solution, how about using long pip pins made to order by
that outfit in Fort Worth.
The bottom of the pins would project through the bottom of the closeout and
would be inspected on every pre-flight inspection. The top of the pin would
be level with the top skin, and installed in such a way that they can only
be extracted with a small pair of longnose pliers for safety's sake ( I have
a similar arrangement with my regular pins). To make it easy to place the
pins, a piece of tubing could be installed inside the closeout down to the
edge of the TP12.
Karl
>From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2@hotmail.com>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane retention
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 08:22:20 -0600
>
>
> I like it. I'm doing it this way rather than trying to improve the TP6
>bond! Thats nuts!
>
> Glenn> Date: Sun, 15 Jul
>2007 22:57:39 -0700> Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane retention> From:
>fklein@orcasonline.com> To: europa-list@matronics.com> > --> Europa-List
>message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>> > Far be it for me,
>a humble late-builder, to chime in on this very > technical discussion
>thread; nonetheless, in the spirit of "open source > communication" with
>its underlying premise that an optimal solution to > the problem will arise
>out of the clamor, I have a few thoughts to > share. If I seem long-winded,
>my apologies, but clarity is my goal, as > I've had difficulty
>understanding some of the posts of others whose > brevity obscured (at
>least to me) some aspects of their intent.> > As I look at my "pre-glassed"
>tailplanes which came w/ my "accelerated" > kit, the first thing I notice
>is that the pip pin recesses as supplied > bear no resemblance to the
>drawings in the manual...at the skin > surface, the recesses are
>round...about 1.25" diameter...and taper down > to a .50" hemisphere in
>which is centered the hole for the pip pin. So > I really have no assurance
>as to what extent the TP6 is properly bonded > in or exactly what is going
>on...I ponder this while reading about > variations (such as TP6 location)
>which others are discovering.> > As I review Mod 73 and digest the
>insightful posts regarding the > process of accomplishing it, I can't
>escape my sense that...while it's > doable and apparently (at least to
>those with both the hands-on > building skills and technical knowledge to
>make such an assessment) > solves the problem...the mod seems like a bit of
>a band aid solution. > If I understand it correctly, it relies upon a
>proper bond between a > small crescent of a portion of TP6 to some bid
>cloth which transfers > any loads to the skin of the tailplane....I
>question whether I want to > rely on that bond to resist impacts from
>normal (and sometimes not so > normal) rigging.> > If the fundamental goal
>is to simply keep the TP12 pins fully engaged, > I'm looking elsewhere from
>the pip pins.> > I'm looking at the tailplane root close out which, on my
>tailplanes, > looks like about .088" of solid FG skin. I'm referring to the
>flanges > which measure a full inch in width...from edge to innermost
>surface of > the inboard plywood insert with the bushes which receive the
>TP12 pins.> > I liked Carl P.'s suggestion (as I understood it) of a
>hardened steel > pin extending thru both top and bottom skins and lying
>inboard of the > TP12 driveplate. The FG flange could be suitably
>reinforced...perhaps > with an embedded plate which could be threaded to
>receive a threaded > rod, thus eliminating fasteners extending beyond the
>plane of the > tailplane surface. I did not understand Carl's calling for
>the rod to > be 9" long, as the depth of the tailplane at the root is just
>under 5", > but perhaps that was a typo. The beauty of Carl's suggestion is
>that it > is simple and direct...it is completely visable anytime the
>tailplane > is slid away from the fuselage an inch or so...and the
>condition of the > "fix" can be monitored at any time in the future.> > Now
>that FG flange is only 1" wide, and the TP12 flanges measure 7/16", > and
>the bushes sit 1/16" proud of the glassed plywood...so...after a > (let's
>say) 1/4" dia. hole is drilled for a hardened steel pin to slide > past the
>TP12 drive plate, there's only a 1/4" left of the flange. It > would be
>sufficient however if the flange were reinforced with an > embedded plate
>which would allow the forces to be transferred to both > the top and bottom
>skins.> > The steel pin could be cut flush top and bottom; perhaps only the
> > bottom plate would be threaded, and the top end of the pin could be >
>slotted for a screwdriver so the pin could be turned in place (and >
>perhaps loctite'd?). For redundancy, there could be two pins per side > as
>Carl P. suggested for the faint of heart.> > With such a solution, the
>uncertainties of the conditions of the foam, > flox, TP5 placement, and
>other issues around the pip pins become > irrelevant.> > Amen...thanks for
>wading through this post.> > In the time it's taken me to write this, I may
>well have been able to > install Mod 73...and...there's always bee=====> >
> >
>_________________________________________________________________
>See what youre getting intobefore you go there.
>http://newlivehotmail.com
_________________________________________________________________
Watch all 9 Live Earth concerts live on MSN. http://liveearth.uk.msn.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Lunch Bunch Update |
So far the Oskosh lunch bunch looks like this:
Name Cell Dates
Type Europa
Bud Yerly 813 244-8354 24-27
Tri gear
Rich Schultz 713-703-2156 21-27
Tri gear
Bob Borger 817-992-1117 21-27
Monowheel
Ira Rampil 631-335-9582 21-27
Tri gear
Linda Rampil 631-335-9583 21-27
Tri gear
Karl Heindl None
21-27 Tri gear C-FIRS
Brian Davies 44 792 1083 599 UK 25-28
Trigear
John Wigney 704-231-7865 23-28
Mono
Rick Stockton 707-303-1717 23-27
Tri gear
Bob Borger 817-992-1117 21-27
Mono
Pete Zutrauen 613-850-5551 21-27
Future Mono
John Wigney 704-231-7865 23-28
Mono XS - at 'Home Built Camping
Michael Grass 586-822-0333 22-26
Trigear Driving in
Goff Moore 44 7808 296388 UK 22-29
Tri-gear
Message 8
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| Subject: | RF skin effect and wave length as it pertains to transponder |
antenna placement
In a message dated 7/16/2007 3:01:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
europa-list@matronics.com writes:
So, we're talking about an average handful of milliwatts here rec'd by our
body.
Like trying to heat food in the microwave by turning it on for just 2 seconds
each hour. In a week, it will still be room temp.
Hello Fred,
You are absolutely correct here. It should also be noted that microwave
ovens use a specifically designed antenna in the roof of the oven to concentrate
and focus their energy directly into the center of the oven in order to heat
whatever is being heated. The bottom of the oven is a reflector of sorts that
reflects any energy not absorbed initially by the object being heated back
into that object. This focusing of energy and reflection of unabsorbed energy
overcomes "skin effect" of the object being heated. This heating effect by
direct RF exposure was first noted by engineers at Ratheon back in the late
1930's when RADAR was being developed for the military and the first commercial
microwave ovens that were sold by Ratheon in the 1950's were called "Radar
Ranges".
Skin effect, in the case of, but not limited to, living or once living
tissue, is a phenomena that occurs primarily because of the water content in
whatever is being subjected to the radio frequency (RF) radiation. Lenz's Law
states that the density of current in a conductor (including your body) is least
at the center and increases towards the outer circumference of the conductor
at radio frequencies. RF energy tends to go around bodies with large amounts
of water, iow, the path of least resistance, particularly at higher
frequencies. Hence, the term skin effect. Above about 30 Ghz the rules change
some,
but I won't go into that here. This skin effect is also the reason why no one
has been able to consistently show, and never will show, a link between
non-ionizing radiation and the formation of cancer, despite the trial lawyer's
best, most tireless efforts to prove a link so they can make lots of money.
The amount of RF penetration into organic tissue is primarily dependent of
the power level transmitted, the distance from the antenna and the focal
point, in any, of the antenna. In the case of a microwave oven heating a piece
of
meat, what actually happens is the focused energy heats the water in the meat
tissue, which in turn heats the surrounding tissues, That's why it takes
1000 watts of concentrated microwave energy centered in the focal point of the
antenna to defrost a turkey for dinner or pop a bag of popcorn. It's also why
you can turn a good steak into shoe leather if you let it go too long in the
microwave.
By contrast, your cell phone operates at 6/10ths of a watt at it's highest
power setting (when located farthest from the cell) and radiates
omnidirectionally, and thus there is very little penetration, if any, into your
body.
Similarly, transponders, which typically pulse in "bursts" of around 250-300
watts, broadcast their energy from the antenna, usually a vertically polarized
dipole, in all directions. The pattern of radiated energy is determined by the
type of antenna used. In the case of a vertically polarized dipole the
pattern resembles a bow tie stood on end. Skin effect, coupled by the short
duration of the burst of RF, plus the pattern of radiation, results in very little,
if any, tissue penetration of RF from your transponder antenna unless you are
sitting on it or happen to inadvertently swallow it.
Without loosing everybody in the math, it's also notable that, due to the
physics of radio frequency transmission in the free space of our atmosphere,
roughly 96% of the radiated energy is dissipated in the first two wave lengths
from the source of the radiation, i.e. the antenna. The wave length is
roughly determined by the speed of light divided by the frequency of operation.
There are other minor factors that determine specific wave length and before
anybody jumps up and down, please note, I am ignoring the effects of modulation
on wave length and field strength here for simplicity.
In the case of a 1090 Mhz transponder, the peak to peak wave length is about
11 inches (10.83"). So, if you have your transponder antenna more than 11"
away from your body, you aren't gong to receive enough RF radiation to make
any difference in your reproductive efforts, so don't count on it as a method
of birth control. Similarly, to minimize shadowing, you should locate your
transponder antenna at least 11" away from reflective (metallic) objects for
best results. 3 wave lengths is even better.
FWIW, I put my transponder antenna on the right side of the fuselage, just
in front of the joggle at the tail section. Fiberglass is invisible to RF. In
fact, most commercially available microwave radomes (covers that shield feed
horns from bird poop and ice falling off the tower) and most antenna masts
are made of fiberglass for that reason. Therefore, there is no reason to locate
any RF antenna on the outside of a fiberglass airplane unless directed
(coerced) by your gubmint to do so.
I used an Antenna Specialists dipole antenna. I shaped a piece of balsa wood
to fill in the curve of the inside of the fuselage, bonded the balsa to the
fuselage side with Redux, then bonded the antenna to the balsa with Redux. I
have not had any ATC report any shadowing effects whatsoever and, at
altitude, I've been "seen" as far away as 80 nm from the radar transceiver. It
did
take a rather expensive ($225) 14' piece of precisely tuned, mil spec,
precision coax, with precision connectors, to achieve the maximum of 1 dB of
cable/connector loss (as required by Garmin) to locate the antenna where I did,
though. My primary reason for locating my transponder antenna where I did was
more to get it away from other devices in the cockpit that it might interfere
with, and several wave lengths away from the COM antenna, not to prevent the
pilot and copilot from receiving RF radiation from the transponder antenna.
After commissioning over 7,000 cellular telephone sites in 16 countries,
along with about 1800 co-located terrestrial microwave sites, and about 25 years
as an amateur radio operator, if RF radiation were going to make anybody
glow in the dark it'd be me........and I still have to use a flashlight (torch)
to find my way in the dark......
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Down for annual inspection after finally receiving my Repairman's
certificate 9 months after application to the FAA!
************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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| Subject: | Tailplane retention |
Thank you Bob...a picture is worth 1000 words...kudos to Roger
Sheridan...I now recall seeing his pictures but my mind lost them in
the plethora of posts on this topic...and I certainly agree w/ your
comment to NOT file or alter the TP12 drive plates.
Fred
do not archive
On Monday, July 16, 2007, at 01:35 AM, R.C.Harrison wrote:
>
> Why am I telling you this?.......Just out of interest really but to
> accompany the photos above. A system which you may be interested in?
> Roger Sheridan hasn't applied for it as a mod yet but Andy Draper has
> voiced interest
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Hard to believe that, Karl. You will still have difficulty with the TP6,
getting it entered into the TP5 hole
Graham
Karl Heindl wrote:
>
>
> Graham,
>
> I could be wrong, but I don't agree. I think I can control the heat
> precisely to a localized area and not damage any foam.
>
> Karl
>
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Roger at the Factory confirmed that Jeremy is correct.
On 16 Jul 2007, at 13:31, Jeremy Davey wrote:
> <europaflyer_3@msn.com>
>
> Karl,
>
> Sorry to differ, but I believe that's not so. Pre-skinned
> tailplanes ARE
> affected - the only ones that are possibly not affected are the pre-
> moulded
> ones, and to the best of my knowledge there are only two sets of
> those: on
> Peter Kember's new bird, and on the old factory demonstrator G-GBXS.
>
> Has anyone come up with a reason for overlapping the lower skin
> instead of
> using a flox corner yet?
Message 12
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| Subject: | Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Karl
I think that when the cause is eventually discovered - it will be found to
be a combination of two or more conditions that individually, would not
cause a problem.
One Pip-Pin was found to be bent through 90 degrees, implying that one
tailplane did rotate and that TP4 remained in place. I would guess that the
TP6 remained firmly anchored to the torque tube by the pin and the rest of
the structure broke loose and rotated around it.
A few years back I witnessed a formula one fatal at Reno, right in front of
our grandstand. The aircraft suffered a tailplane flutter which resulted in
four or five violent pitch up/down cycles before the tail broke free and the
aircraft pitched into the ground. The whole incident probably took no more
than 2.5 seconds from start to sad end. The torsional load on the main wing
spars must have been phenomenal and it would be easy to understand how a
main plane could fail following a tailplane flutter.
With regard to suitable repairs. I have thought long and hard about this
(and so are the guys at the PFA) and the truth is that there is no quick
fix. Regardless of whatever method is devised to locate the tail laterally,
the fact remains that a disbonded TP5 and TP6 will prevent the tailplane
locating accurately on TP4 - and this must be addressed.
The Mod 73 Pip-pin reinforcement is a good short term fix (the sticking
plaster).
To retro-fit the tailplane mod would require that the entire tailplane be
dismantled and rebuilt .....possible, but by no means easy.
In my opinion it would be easier to build new tailplanes (and if I was in
this predicament, this would be my chosen course of action).
I quite enjoyed building mine and it didn't take that long.
How about someone (Europa 2004?) producing new tail kits (Tailplanes only)
and offer these to existing Europa owners at cost plus. I reckon they could
be produced for around 400-500 GPB ($800-$1000 USD) plus shipping. It's an
idea to keep the discussion rolling......
Nigel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: 15 July 2007 14:50
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Nigel,
I understand all that and your mod should have been made standard a long
time ago. But what about older Europas ? We hear reports about disbonded
TP6s but we don't hear how they were repaired. I really would like to know.
A suitable retrofit mod should also have been made available as soon as this
problem was known.
I still say that there is no way the tailplane can move if the pip pin head
is firmly against solid material on the inboard side. You say there is
always a gap, but that gap is filled with floxed epoxy, and the head is
inside a close fitting plastic pipe in my case. I think another builder
recently told us about a similar mod he made. The remaining space around the
pipe is also filled with epoxy. Of course all these solutions are based on
theory and only a lab test could verify the claims.
When my TP5s disbonded from trailering I was kicking myself for not having
installed a one-piece pipe, but in those early days I was very careful to
follow the build instructions precisely. I stll think that a retrofit of a
one-piece sleeve would be more than strong enough to prevent any future
disbonding, and would be a relatively easy solution where the TP6s have
already disbonded.
As far as the accident goes, we still don't have any real conclusive
evidence about the sequence of events. Only a number of theories. Only a
wind tunnel test would verify the flutter theory, but who is going to pay
for that ? Eyewitness reports can be very misleading.
If the wing trailing edge pin came off first, is it possible that the pilot
was getting set up for landing and deploying flaps and undercarriage ?
I also like the other suggested solutions where a lock is put behind the
TP12
Karl
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane retention |
I did not understand Carl's calling for the rod to
> be 9" long, as the depth of the tailplane at the root is just under
5",
> but perhaps that was a typo.
I told the wife it was 9" long but she says its nearer 5". I need to get
my eyes tested.
Fact is that I never measured it - just guessed.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
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As we are not the builders of G-ROOV and lacking sufficient expertise
(we feel) to make a good job of Mod 73 is there anyone out there
willing to do the work for us? We are Biggin based but could tow/fly
to accomodate.
Thanks Kevin Siggery
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Is there anything special about the TP5 hole ? The TP5 would be removed
first, obviously.
Karl
>From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:18:01 +0100
>
><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
>Hard to believe that, Karl. You will still have difficulty with the TP6,
>getting it entered into the TP5 hole
>Graham
>
>Karl Heindl wrote:
>>
>>
>>Graham,
>>
>>I could be wrong, but I don't agree. I think I can control the heat
>>precisely to a localized area and not damage any foam.
>>
>>Karl
>>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Watch all 9 Live Earth concerts live on MSN. http://liveearth.uk.msn.com
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Glenn
the Europa airfoil as designed has a bit of reflex in the trailing edge
but you need to check the computer printout to see it.
Graham
glenn crowder wrote:
> All non symmetrical airfoils that do not have reflex in the trailing
> edge have a negative CM (pitching moment).
>
> Glenn
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane retention |
Carl
If I hadn't read the rest of this thread I would have guessed that you
were talking about something else entirely. It must be something to do
with the way my mind works.
Anyway, don't worry about your eyes, just listen to your wife. She knows
best.
Regards
Paul Atkinson
do not archive... please!
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:55:06 +0100, Carl Pattinson
<carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> I told the wife it was 9" long but she says its nearer 5". I need to get
> my eyes tested.
> Fact is that I never measured it - just guessed.
> Carl Pattinson
> G-LABS
--
/
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<<photocopied onto ordinary paper. It has set solidly in legible state
> without any blurring of the lettering >>
I suspect that the Inspector's signature (when applied) will get 'bleached'
by the wet epoxy, unless signed with a laundry pen!
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 11:22 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Mod 73
> <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
> Just to add to what David Corbett has said about the practicalities: I
> brought my tail planes back to my workshop and used a piece of plumbing
> waste pipe, and a vacuum cleaner extension pipe which both needed building
> up to a tight fit using PVC tape on one side and duct tape covered with
> smooth parcel tape on the other side, both covered liberally with grease,
> but without cling film or any extra release agent. The mod part 1 took
> about
> 90 mins and seemed straightforward with the hole dimensions OK and both
> TP6s
> solidly bonded. The pipes came out with the sort of twisting force you can
> readily apply by hand.
> For those who don't want to wait for self adhesive labels, I
> experimented with putting a single layer of bid over the required placard,
> simply photocopied onto ordinary paper. It has set solidly in legible
> state
> without any blurring of the lettering Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List:Transponders |
<<the fact that a bottom-mounted antenna will not place our body in a strong
part of the radiating pattern>>
Fred,
Where is the "cone of silence" located on a typical transponder aerial?
Makes a case for sitting right on top of the aerial ( or axially above it,
to be precise)!
Duncan Mcf
----- Original Message -----
From: "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu@oh.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List:Transponders
> <n3eu@oh.rr.com>
>
> RF energy harms body tissue by heating it, as in a microwave oven, which
> is continuous energy. However, my oven on the defrost setting zaps the
> food only periodically, like on for X seconds and off for Y seconds. Also,
> the higher the frequency, the more the heating. VHF does a poor job, and
> 1 gHz (transponder) is better, and that's in the range of a cell phone
> also.
>
> Transponders are spec'd in peak power, and 250W is typical. RF energy is
> transmitted only when we send a "1 bit" during a pulse train time duration
> of 21 microseconds, and how many pulse trains we send is based upon a
> whole bunch of variables. Like how many 1-bits we send. How many pulse
> trains do we send when our reply lamp flashes? Not really relevant, as we
> shall see, but it could be a total of 2 milliseconds worth, as a guess.
>
> So, 2 ms every 2000 ms cuts our avg 250W RF power to an average of only
> 250mW, roughly our cell phone's typical power (to save battery, they cut
> themselves back to minimum needed). This comparison is not a good one,
> because we would need to multiply the transponder's 250mW times a 50% duty
> cycle for sending bits, then by sending typically only 40% of maximum
> bits, times another % because of the significant dead time between between
> each pulse train we send, and finally by another % to reflect the fact
> that a bottom-mounted antenna will not place our body in a strong part of
> the radiating pattern at all. And of course, unlike the cell phone, the
> distance to our antenna is at least feet away. There's a square in the
> formula for that, so double the distance and we attenuate the radiated
> power by 25%.
>
> So, we're talking about an average handful of milliwatts here rec'd by
> our body. Like trying to heat food in the microwave by turning it on for
> just 2 seconds each hour. In a week, it will still be room temp.
>
> Fred F.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124003#124003
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Mod 73-any pictures of work in progress? |
Like G-ROOV we did not build our plane and are somewhat inexperienced in these
matters. I just wonder if anyone is currently undertaking the mod 73 work could
a few pictures be taken of the various stages and posted? This would really
help us get a feel for the job. Thanks in advance. Andrew. G-MFHI (Rochester)
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Mod 73-any pictures of work in progress? |
If you arent experienced in glassfibre layups and in Europa construction
methofs I would strongly suggest you find someone who has.
The required excavations are very close to a structural rib, which if
damaged could seriously weaken the tailplane structure.
Anyone who has built a tailplane knows exactly where this is.
Its a very simple job if you know what you are doing. Im not sure pictures
will make it any easier if you havent had previous experience - IMHO.
You dont say if you have experience in glass cloth construction. Is might be
worth getting in touch with the Europa club secretary to see if any their
members can help. If im not mistaken, Peter Kember is fairly close to you.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "morg42" <themorgans@fairadsl.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 9:29 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Mod 73-any pictures of work in progress?
>
> Like G-ROOV we did not build our plane and are somewhat inexperienced in
> these matters. I just wonder if anyone is currently undertaking the mod 73
> work could a few pictures be taken of the various stages and posted? This
> would really help us get a feel for the job. Thanks in advance. Andrew.
> G-MFHI (Rochester)
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Europa-List:Transponders |
14 Hantone HillJohn,
I had a "spike" antenna located behind the baggage bay but I received
continual complains from ATC when I was flying towards them at altitudes of
4000' or less.
I changed to a Bob Archer antenna and moved it down to the mass balance arm
area and I have never received a complaint since.
Paul
Message 23
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| Subject: | Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" Cost |
Hi all,
Well, I'll stick my head up for a bit of flak here (maybe a lot of flak).
Richard touches on a point that is near and dear to my heart.
I so very much want to spend my money with E2004 to ensure their continued
sucess, however when I have to pay 60 GBP for a simple bush that a NC
machine could knock out in batches of a 100 for less than a dollar a pop I
get really frustated.
It would appear that E2004, or the preceeding companies have made little
effort to take cost out of their supply chain. If they don't they are
destined to fade away.
Paul
BTW. Before every one "flames" me here, I have made a career of supply
chain systems so I am well versed in the topic.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard
Holder
> The other factor is that the BLS4R17N are about 50 each
> from E(2004), so the Mod 73 fix is a few quid in resin and
> maybe an extra 100 plus VAT if a bigger pip pin is
> required (if they can find any).
> It may be that E(2004) can be persuaded to charge only
> cost price for the longer pip pins (around 20 - 25
> maybe). This problem is after all a design problem.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" Cost |
Paul
I cannot argue with you. I detect the possibility of some bean counter
thinking here. There is unfortunately a beoief in UK retail circles that
mark up has to be 100%. When value added is close to zero that can't be
justified.
Graham
Paul McAllister wrote:
>
> It would appear that E2004, or the preceeding companies have made little
> effort to take cost out of their supply chain. If they don't they are
> destined to fade away.
>
> Paul
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List:Transponders |
Paul
the radiation pattern of a dipole is like a figure 8 on its siude,
(doughnut) is that right Fred? John? Quarter wave whip is more or less a
sphere.
Graham
Paul McAllister wrote:
> John,
>
> I had a "spike" antenna located behind the baggage bay but I received
> continual complains from ATC when I was flying towards them at altitudes
> of 4000' or less.
>
> I changed to a Bob Archer antenna and moved it down to the mass balance
> arm area and I have never received a complaint since.
>
> Paul*
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
No but its a tight fit on the bush, TP5 o6 TP6. How do you persuade it
to start down the hole from the inside?
Graham
Karl Heindl wrote:
>
>
> Is there anything special about the TP5 hole ? The TP5 would be removed
> first, obviously.
>
> Karl
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Graham,
Not sure what you mean by the bush.
Disregarding the heat application for the time being, I would have a 1.5"
alu tube inside the TP6.
Then I would drill a small hole near the pip pin hole through the TP6 and
into the tube for a small self-tapping screw or rivet, if there is space for
a rivet tool in the recess. Assuming, the TP6 is now loose, I take hold of
the tube end at the root and slowly pull the thing out with a turning
motion.
The screw head (unless it is countersunk) will cut a fine spiralshaped
groove into the foam, but that is hardly a problem, because I would line the
hole with floxed redux anyway before inserting the new part. Does that make
sense so far ?
Actually, the screw would already be in before I start the heat application,
because the TP6 needs to be turned once the adhesive starts to soften, and
would have to keep turning while the adhesive cools down again before
extraction.
Karl
>From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
>Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 00:32:32 +0100
>
><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
>No but its a tight fit on the bush, TP5 o6 TP6. How do you persuade it to
>start down the hole from the inside?
>Graham
>
>Karl Heindl wrote:
>>
>>
>>Is there anything special about the TP5 hole ? The TP5 would be removed
>>first, obviously.
>>
>>Karl
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Tell MSN about your most memorable emails! http://www.emailbritain.co.uk/
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List:Transponders |
The radiating pattern on a 1/4-wave monopole (the common xponder stubbie thing,
or whip-type comm antenna) is a half-donut. Sliced laterally, so each half has
a hole.
See
Above is theoretical in one section, and a practical matter there will be backlobes,
as implied by one of their later diagrams as tested on an actual antenna.
Since I'm sure this radiation is harmless, a 1/4-wave antenna on the fuselage bottom
at lowest point should be most effective. On my tri-gear, I have it underneath
the central tunnel, which has the advantage of keeping the coax short
enough it makes little difference what type of coax it is.
Fred F.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124221#124221
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| Subject: | Colson Caster for a Tailwheel |
Hi all,
I have Colson casters for my out riggers and I was wondering if anyone has
tried a larger Colson caster as a replacement for the tailwheel.
I was thinking that it would run much smoother and quiter, however I am
wondering if its robust enough.
Thoughts anyone ?
Paul
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List:Transponders |
Re the Archer dipole, there is nothing theoretical to suggest it should work any
better. Like any dipole, it should be more sensitive to nearby metal elements
to degrade performance (including its own feedline, if not aligned properly).
The fanciful shape of the PC board antenna elements I imagine are quite intentional,
but no generic text I'm aware of says that's the best way to do it.
Only Mr. Archer knows for sure, and it may indeed optimize radiation pattern
for xponder use.
However, the case with any antenna is that pure line-of-sight always works, 360-deg
around the aircraft (looking through only fiberglass is OK). Also, how much
actual xmit power your transponder has is important, because we can't compare
user reports w/o knowing that. In the U.S., where a periodic xponder test
is required, the box will pass with considerably less power than the spec of any
box currently sold (the King KT78/KT78A the only one on the weak side when
new or working to spec).
Fred F.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124271#124271
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Lunch Bunch Update |
Bud,
You missed a couple of guys. I added them to the bottom of the list.
Regards
Michael Grass
----- Original Message -----
From: ALAN YERLY
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 11:08 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Oshkosh Lunch Bunch Update
So far the Oskosh lunch bunch looks like this:
Name Cell Dates
Type Europa
Bud Yerly 813 244-8354 24-27
Tri gear
Rich Schultz 713-703-2156 21-27
Tri gear
Bob Borger 817-992-1117 21-27
Monowheel
Ira Rampil 631-335-9582 21-27
Tri gear
Linda Rampil 631-335-9583 21-27
Tri gear
Karl Heindl None 21-27
Tri gear C-FIRS
Brian Davies 44 792 1083 599 UK 25-28
Trigear
John Wigney 704-231-7865 23-28
Mono
Rick Stockton 707-303-1717 23-27
Tri gear
Bob Borger 817-992-1117 21-27
Mono
Pete Zutrauen 613-850-5551 21-27
Future Mono
John Wigney 704-231-7865 23-28
Mono XS - at 'Home Built Camping
Michael Grass 586-822-0333 22-26
Tri gear Driving in
Goff Moore 44 7808 296388 UK 22-29
Tri-gear
John Banhagel 623 628-2774 21-27
Tri gear
Paul McAllister 262-993-4483
will be attending the show for th whole week Monowheel N378PJ
Message 32
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| Subject: | Colson Caster for a Tailwheel |
Hi Paul,
You could look at Fallshaws who seem to have been making castors for
ever "down-under". They have a huge range 30-10,000kg !!.
Contact Fallshaw Castors -- wwww.castorsandindustrial.com.au
Best wishes
Euan Nichol
Victoria University, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
McAllister
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:20 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Colson Caster for a Tailwheel
--> <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Hi all,
I have Colson casters for my out riggers and I was wondering if anyone
has tried a larger Colson caster as a replacement for the tailwheel.
I was thinking that it would run much smoother and quiter, however I am
wondering if its robust enough.
Thoughts anyone ?
Paul
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Nigel,
Unpopular as it may be, I think you are right. Mod 73 strikes me as a very
unsatisfactory fix for a poor design. What I would like to see is a new set
of tailplanes with a redesigned torque shaft and retention system. A 'belt
and braces' system that will make all this uncertainty go away. We all love
our little aeroplanes, but it must be made more rugged down the back. At
the moment the whole situation concerns me greatly and my confidence in the
integrity of the aircraft has taken a severe knock with the loss of G-HOFC
and our friends. Accidents caused by pilot error I can live with, but
structural failure I cannot. I want to be able to relax when I fly my
Europa.
Europa 2004 can put on the list now for a new set of tailplanes if the
re-design can restore my confidence in my aircraft.
regards,
Mike
> How about someone (Europa 2004?) producing new tail kits (Tailplanes only)
> and offer these to existing Europa owners at cost plus. I reckon they
> could
> be produced for around 400-500 GPB ($800-$1000 USD) plus shipping. It's
> an
> idea to keep the discussion rolling......
>
> Nigel
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Colson Caster for a Tailwheel |
Paul,
Which of the 40,000 are you using?
Fred
On Monday, July 16, 2007, at 07:19 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:
>
> I have Colson casters for my out riggers
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Mike
I agree with you. A simple redesign would be to make TP5 and 6 one
single tube, with lightening holes, weld a flange on it that bolts onto
the inside of the root rib. Relying on a bond between epoxy and
stainless steel is not sensible. imho
I still wish we knew more about what went wrong with G-HOFC though.
Graham
Mike Parkin wrote:
> <mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.com>
>
> Nigel,
>
> Unpopular as it may be, I think you are right. Mod 73 strikes me as a
> very unsatisfactory fix for a poor design.
>
> Mike
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane retention |
Remember. Any holes drilled in the TP4 tube have to be horizontal.
Vertical holes would weaken the tube too much.
Graham
glenn crowder wrote:
> I like it. I'm doing it this way rather than trying to improve the
> TP6 bond! Thats nuts!
>
> Glenn
>
> > Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 22:57:39 -0700
> > Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane retention
> > From: fklein@orcasonline.com
> > To: europa-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > Far be it for me, a humble late-builder, to chime in on this very
> > technical discussion thread; nonetheless, in the spirit of "open source
> > communication" with its underlying premise that an optimal solution to
> > the problem will arise out of the clamor, I have a few thoughts to
> > share. If I seem long-winded, my apologies, but clarity is my goal, as
> > I've had difficulty understanding some of the posts of others whose
> > brevity obscured (at least to me) some aspects of their intent.
> >
> > As I look at my "pre-glassed" tailplanes which came w/ my "accelerated"
> > kit, the first thing I notice is that the pip pin recesses as supplied
> > bear no resemblance to the drawings in the manual...at the skin
> > surface, the recesses are round...about 1.25" diameter...and taper down
> > to a .50" hemisphere in which is centered the hole for the pip pin. So
> > I really have no assurance as to what extent the TP6 is properly bonded
> > in or exactly what is going on...I ponder this while reading about
> > variations (such as TP6 location) which others are discovering.
> >
> > As I review Mod 73 and digest the insightful posts regarding the
> > process of accomplishing it, I can't escape my sense that...while it's
> > doable and apparently (at least to those with both the hands-on
> > building skills and technical knowledge to make such an assessment)
> > solves the problem...the mod seems like a bit of a band aid solution.
> > If I understand it correctly, it relies upon a proper bond between a
> > small crescent of a portion of TP6 to some bid cloth which transfers
> > any loads to the skin of the tailplane....I question whether I want to
> > rely on that bond to resist impacts from normal (and sometimes not so
> > normal) rigging.
> >
> > If the fundamental goal is to simply keep the TP12 pins fully engaged,
> > I'm looking elsewhere from the pip pins.
> >
> > I'm looking at the tailplane root close out which, on my tailplanes,
> > looks like about .088" of solid FG skin. I'm referring to the flanges
> > which measure a full inch in width...from edge to innermost surface of
> > the inboard plywood insert with the bushes which receive the TP12 pins.
> >
> > I liked Carl P.'s suggestion (as I understood it) of a hardened steel
> > pin extending thru both top and bottom skins and lying inboard of the
> > TP12 driveplate. The FG flange could be suitably reinforced...perhaps
> > with an embedded plate which could be threaded to receive a threaded
> > rod, thus eliminating fasteners extending beyond the plane of the
> > tailplane surface. I did not understand Carl's calling for the rod to
> > be 9" long, as the depth of the tailplane at the root is just under 5",
> > but perhaps that was a typo. The beauty of Carl's suggestion is that it
> > is simple and direct...it is completely visable anytime the tailplane
> > is slid away from the fuselage an inch or so...and the condition of the
> > "fix" can be monitored at any time in the future.
> >
> > Now that FG flange is only 1" wide, and the TP12 flanges measure 7/16",
> > and the bushes sit 1/16" proud of the glassed plywood...so...after a
> > (let's say) 1/4" dia. hole is drilled for a hardened steel pin to slide
> > past the TP12 drive plate, there's only a 1/4" left of the flange. It
> > would be sufficient however if the flange were reinforced with an
> > embedded plate which would allow the forces to be transferred to both
> > the top and bottom skins.
> >
> > The steel pin could be cut flush top and bottom; perhaps only the
> > bottom plate would be threaded, and the top end of the pin could be
> > slotted for a screwdriver so the pin could be turned in place (and
> > perhaps loctite'd?). For redundancy, there could be two pins per side
> > as Carl P. suggested for the faint of heart.
> >
> > With such a solution, the uncertainties of the conditions of the foam,
> > flox, TP5 placement, and other issues around the pip pins become
> > irrelevant.
> >
> > Amen...thanks for wading through this post.
> >
> > In the time it's taken me to write this, I may well have been able to
> > install Mod 73...and...there's always been more than one way to skin a
> > cat,
> &=========
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See what youre getting intobefore you go there. Check it out!
> <http://newlivehotmail.com>
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Graham,
I think we will never know the full story on Williams aircraft.
New larger pins, clamp mods, TP6 'crutches'. There has been a considerable
amount of static generated in the last few years, all centred around the
pitch control system. I like your idea. But let us not stop there, at the
same time we should be upgrading the TP9 and TP12s. The system around the
tailplane torque tube needs a testosterone injection.
regards,
Mike
> Mike
> I agree with you. A simple redesign would be to make TP5 and 6 one single
> tube, with lightening holes, weld a flange on it that bolts onto the
> inside of the root rib. Relying on a bond between epoxy and stainless
> steel is not sensible. imho
> I still wish we knew more about what went wrong with G-HOFC though.
> Graham
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 |
Mike,
Fact is : There are tens of thousands of registered flying hours with Europas,
without structural failures, although amateur built. Almost too good to be true.
Fact is, that floppy tailplanes have been known to excist. To the point that
mods have been made like the club mod, and the Harrison clamp. Fact is that
this is the first time it lead to disaster.
So it's at least discussable under which catagory, plane structural or pilot error
flying with loose, floppy tailplanes falls.
We all have the reponsability to make sure we fly an airworthy plane. This discussion
has moved the line from what we judge to be airworthy, because of the accident.
It has not changed the hardware. But now that we know, more then ever,
that we have to critical with what we take in the air.
The what if question is pretty useless. The Tacoma bridge would not have been built
if the flutter factor had been known. Flutter is something that is difficult
to calculate in advance. Has been, will be.
All we have to do from now is make sure that our little planes remain in their
tested, safe specifications. That is without tolerances.
And PLease!
Let us also be precise on other parts like ailerons and flaps, before also these
fail because tolerances are over the limit.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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