---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/17/07: 40 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:23 AM - UK Airfields (Carl Pattinson) 2. 12:55 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Carl Pattinson) 3. 01:36 AM - Re: Colson Caster for a Tailwheel (Brian Davies) 4. 01:47 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Alan Burrows) 5. 02:12 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (R.C.Harrison) 6. 02:13 AM - Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (=?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?=) 7. 02:34 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (William Harrison) 8. 02:37 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Alan Burrows) 9. 03:01 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Tim Ward) 10. 03:04 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Richard Holder) 11. 03:37 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Carl Pattinson) 12. 03:39 AM - Europa Tailplane. (Mike Parkin) 13. 03:44 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Jeremy Davey) 14. 03:57 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Mike Parkin) 15. 04:39 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Tim Ward) 16. 04:50 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Mike Parkin) 17. 05:06 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Jeremy Davey) 18. 05:24 AM - Re: Mod 73-any pictures of work in progress? (morg42) 19. 06:00 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Carl Pattinson) 20. 06:53 AM - Re: Mod 73-any pictures of work in progress? (scudrunner) 21. 06:55 AM - Europa Tailplane - Adequate Design? (David Joyce) 22. 07:06 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane. (josok) 23. 07:31 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 (Nigel Graham) 24. 08:18 AM - Tail plane- adequate design? (David Joyce) 25. 08:27 AM - Non composite solution? (peter.rees01@tiscali.co.uk) 26. 09:42 AM - (Tony Wickens) 27. 10:11 AM - Re: Mod 73-any pictures of work in progress? (Graham Singleton) 28. 10:24 AM - Re: Europa Tailplane - Adequate Design? (Carl Pattinson) 29. 10:43 AM - Re: Tail Plane Blues (JEFF ROBERTS) 30. 12:05 PM - Re: (Carl Pattinson) 31. 12:05 PM - Fw: Europa Tailplane - Adequate Design? (Carl Pattinson) 32. 12:49 PM - Re: Re: Tail Plane Blues (Jeff B) 33. 01:40 PM - Re: Re: Tail Plane Blues (JEFF ROBERTS) 34. 02:46 PM - Re: Colson Caster for a Tailwheel (Paul McAllister) 35. 03:04 PM - Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues (Fred Klein) 36. 03:23 PM - ammeter (Paul Stewart) 37. 04:40 PM - Re: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues (JEFF ROBERTS) 38. 04:42 PM - Re: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues (glenn crowder) 39. 06:47 PM - Re: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues (Fred Klein) 40. 08:14 PM - Re: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:23:33 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: UK Airfields When planning a trip to a UK airfield, I often resort to using Google Earth to have a look at the surrounding terrain etc. Problem is it often takes a lot of hunting to find small out of the way destinations (often disused WW2 airstrips). Recently I discovered a resource that contains just about every airfield in the uk. Just find the name from the list and bingo - an aerial shot from about 2000' and its possible to zoom in and out. Like Google, the quality in some geographical areas is not very good but in others you can almost read the registrations of the aircraft on the ground. For the most part its excellent and like Google is being updated and improved on a regular basis. http://www.thehangar.co.uk/waypoints/sql.php3?sql_query http://content-delivery.co.uk/aviation/airfields/ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:03 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Lets forget about the idea of using TP5 and TP6 to retain the tailplanes on to the torque tube. The problem with redesigning this is that its nigh on impossible to retro fit and many Europa owners simply dont have the expertise for such critical work. Ivans idea behind the original tailplane attachent was to produce an easy and quick way of rigging the aircraft. Regrettably time has proved this design to be inadequate in terms of secuity. There are several soultions proposed here which would require little if any invasive work to the tailplane structure (my pin/ bolt through the back of TP12 for example). It might even be possible to build a small compartment behind the inboard rib/ plywood insert and pass a threaded bolt through the rib into the faceplate of TP12 (with a nut bonded to the back). Or a Zeuss ??? fastener. This would bolt the tailplane securely to the TP12 drive plates. Its an idea only and im not sure how feasible it would be. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:10 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > > Mike > I agree with you. A simple redesign would be to make TP5 and 6 one single > tube, with lightening holes, weld a flange on it that bolts onto the > inside of the root rib. Relying on a bond between epoxy and stainless > steel is not sensible. imho > I still wish we knew more about what went wrong with G-HOFC though. > Graham > > Mike Parkin wrote: >> >> >> Nigel, >> >> Unpopular as it may be, I think you are right. Mod 73 strikes me as a >> very unsatisfactory fix for a poor design. Mike >> > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:36:38 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Colson Caster for a Tailwheel Hi Paul, The tail wheel runs much quieter and smoother if you throw away the Chinese bearings that are supplied with the wheel and replace them with "proper" bearings. The original bearings have unmachined balls in them- more like lead shot than ball bearings. I think Aircraft Spruce supply replacement aircraft quality bearings. Brian Davies -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: 17 July 2007 03:20 Subject: Europa-List: Colson Caster for a Tailwheel --> Hi all, I have Colson casters for my out riggers and I was wondering if anyone has tried a larger Colson caster as a replacement for the tailwheel. I was thinking that it would run much smoother and quiter, however I am wondering if its robust enough. Thoughts anyone ? Paul 14:21 14:21 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:47:55 AM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Here here Mike. Kate and I feel exactly the same. We are fortunate to have a second aircraft to fly when we get the time (we are getting married next weekend). Right now it's a much easier decision to get in the Comanche than fly our beloved Europa. Is it not time for us to ASK E2004 to make a commitment to a redesign as I'm sure it would be an excellent income stream for them and a great comfort to many of us. As you say, the loss of two good friends due to structural failure is just not acceptable. Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin Sent: 17 July 2007 06:30 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Nigel, Unpopular as it may be, I think you are right. Mod 73 strikes me as a very unsatisfactory fix for a poor design. What I would like to see is a new set of tailplanes with a redesigned torque shaft and retention system. A 'belt and braces' system that will make all this uncertainty go away. We all love our little aeroplanes, but it must be made more rugged down the back. At the moment the whole situation concerns me greatly and my confidence in the integrity of the aircraft has taken a severe knock with the loss of G-HOFC and our friends. Accidents caused by pilot error I can live with, but structural failure I cannot. I want to be able to relax when I fly my Europa. Europa 2004 can put on the list now for a new set of tailplanes if the re-design can restore my confidence in my aircraft. regards, Mike > How about someone (Europa 2004?) producing new tail kits (Tailplanes only) > and offer these to existing Europa owners at cost plus. I reckon they > could > be produced for around 400-500 GPB ($800-$1000 USD) plus shipping. It's > an > idea to keep the discussion rolling...... > > Nigel > > 14:21 14:21 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:44 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi! Mike Just for the record G-HOFC did NOT have my clamps fitted, (message from Jos unintentionally could be construed that my clamps were implicated). There may have been others but I believe (due to Williams posting last August/September) he relied on the loctite fix. Did you see Bob Sheridans sprung lever fix to retain the tail planes from behind the drive plates? Your redesign suggestion would take an eternity and for me it is imperative to remain current now. Regards Bob Harrison. G-PTAG awaiting inspector, oil and fuel for first stoke up ! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin Sent: 17 July 2007 07:31 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.com Graham, I think we will never know the full story on Williams aircraft. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:35 AM PST US From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?= Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Graham and Mike, I agree. Mod 73 is a very poor fix for a bad design. I like the idea of he single tube with a flange. I am also concerned about relying on a single pip pin to secure the tail plane to the aircraft. As there is no way to visually check that the pip pin is fully engaged and the balls are protruding below TP6, a pull test would be highly desirable. A special plier would be needed for that pull test. Alternatively, a big recess on the underside of the tail plane would allow an uneasy visual inspection with a flashlight. The rear wing pip pin can be checked that way. Moreover I like the idea of a back up tail plane locking device such as the spring loaded lever. Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 487 hours From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Mike I agree with you. A simple redesign would be to make TP5 and 6 one single tube, with lightening holes, weld a flange on it that bolts onto the inside of the root rib. Relying on a bond between epoxy and stainless steel is not sensible. imho I still wish we knew more about what went wrong with G-HOFC though. Graham Mike Parkin wrote: > > > Nigel, > > Unpopular as it may be, I think you are right. Mod 73 strikes me as a > very unsatisfactory fix for a poor design. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:57 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Leaving aside our own views as owners about the integrity and resilience of the tail, another consideration is that the long term market value of our aircraft could be affected by the general perception amongst the aviation community at large about how effectively the problem has been solved. That might influence our willingness to invest in something better than a bandaid solution. Willie On 17 Jul 2007, at 06:29, Mike Parkin wrote: > > > Nigel, > > Unpopular as it may be, I think you are right. Mod 73 strikes me > as a very unsatisfactory fix for a poor design. What I would like > to see is a new set of tailplanes with a redesigned torque shaft > and retention system. A 'belt and braces' system that will make > all this uncertainty go away. We all love our little aeroplanes, > but it must be made more rugged down the back. At the moment the > whole situation concerns me greatly and my confidence in the > integrity of the aircraft has taken a severe knock with the loss of > G-HOFC and our friends. Accidents caused by pilot error I can live > with, but structural failure I cannot. I want to be able to relax > when I fly my Europa. > > Europa 2004 can put on the list now for a new set of tailplanes if > the re-design can restore my confidence in my aircraft. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:37:06 AM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Bob I'm sure Mike can speak for himself, but from my point of view a redesign would not automatically infer the fleet should be grounded, just that a better stronger version was being made available. Also I would prefer to remain current in something that I felt was likely to keep me current also (just my opinion). I have seriously lost confidence in the Europa and whilst I won't immediately stop flying it, I will always be wary of what can happen as we all should be. Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison Sent: 17 July 2007 10:09 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi! Mike Just for the record G-HOFC did NOT have my clamps fitted, (message from Jos unintentionally could be construed that my clamps were implicated). There may have been others but I believe (due to Williams posting last August/September) he relied on the loctite fix. Did you see Bob Sheridans sprung lever fix to retain the tail planes from behind the drive plates? Your redesign suggestion would take an eternity and for me it is imperative to remain current now. Regards Bob Harrison. G-PTAG awaiting inspector, oil and fuel for first stoke up ! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin Sent: 17 July 2007 07:31 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.com Graham, I think we will never know the full story on Williams aircraft. 17:42 17:42 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:01:41 AM PST US From: "Tim Ward" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Why don't we get a certified welder to weld TP12 to TP04 to avoid any torsion stress on TP6 sleeve? Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street, Fendalton, CHRISTCHURCH 8052 Ph :64 03 3515166 Mob: 021 0640221 email: ward.t@xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: R=C3=A9mi Guerner To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:11 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Graham and Mike, I agree. Mod 73 is a very poor fix for a bad design. I like the idea of he single tube with a flange. I am also concerned about relying on a single pip pin to secure the tail plane to the aircraft. As there is no way to visually check that the pip pin is fully engaged and the balls are protruding below TP6, a pull test would be highly desirable. A special plier would be needed for that pull test. Alternatively, a big recess on the underside of the tail plane would allow an uneasy visual inspection with a flashlight. The rear wing pip pin can be checked that way. Moreover I like the idea of a back up tail plane locking device such as the spring loaded lever. Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 487 hours From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Mike I agree with you. A simple redesign would be to make TP5 and 6 one single tube, with lightening holes, weld a flange on it that bolts onto the inside of the root rib. Relying on a bond between epoxy and stainless steel is not sensible. imho I still wish we knew more about what went wrong with G-HOFC though. Graham Mike Parkin wrote: > > > Nigel, > > Unpopular as it may be, I think you are right. Mod 73 strikes me as a > very unsatisfactory fix for a poor design. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:42 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Rmi Guerner wrote: > Graham and Mike, I agree. Mod 73 is a very poor fix for > a bad design. I like the idea of he single tube with a > flange. I am also concerned about relying on a single > pip pin to secure the tail plane to the aircraft. As > there is no way to visually check that the pip pin is > fully engaged and the balls are protruding below TP6 This is not true. If the balls are not correctly released from the side of the pip pin the button will have free longitudinal movement without any springing effect. > pull test would be highly desirable. A special plier > would be needed for that pull test. Alternatively, a > big recess on the underside of the tail plane would > allow an uneasy visual inspection with a flashlight. > The rear wing pip pin can be checked that way. Moreover > I like the idea of a back up tail plane locking device > such as the spring loaded lever. Jos made the point. Hundreds of Europas have flown tens of thousands of hours without any previous sign of any serious problems in the elevator fixing. The AAIB have NOT yet reported (the interim report said nothing) and it may not have been the TP6 that was the primary cause of the accident. Why go for belt, braces and piece of string solutions to a problem that may not exist ? Any long term fix should be required not instantly but in the course of a reasonable period. But we do need a final solution not a series of solutions, each more onerous and complicated and expensive than the previous. Richard Holder G-OWWW High Cross ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:14 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hear, Hear - I couldnt agree more. What will prevent future accidents is vigilance and care, not knee jerk redesigns. The current PFA solution may not be perfect but it is simply intended to bring ALL Europas up to a safe standad. The likelyhood is that 99% of Europas are safe anyway (but we just dont know). I just dont see the need for mass paranoia. How many of us have checked th security of our TP6 joints recently? How many of us found faulty bonds. I suspect the answer is Zero. If I am wrong, Mod73 will fix that. I agree that a more robust fix should be implemented in the future but IMHO this would be more about confidence in the Europa fleet then increasing the safety factor. You cant get away from the fact that the Europa has shown itself to be a very safe aircraft over the last 10 years. Carl Pattinson G-LABS Still Flying (the Europa !!!) > > Jos made the point. Hundreds of Europas have flown tens of > thousands of hours without any previous sign of any > serious problems in the elevator fixing. > > The AAIB have NOT yet reported (the interim report said > nothing) and it may not have been the TP6 that was the > primary cause of the accident. > > Why go for belt, braces and piece of string solutions to a > problem that may not exist ? > > Any long term fix should be required not instantly but in > the course of a reasonable period. But we do need a final > solution not a series of solutions, each more onerous and > complicated and expensive than the previous. > > Richard Holder > G-OWWW High Cross > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:45 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane. All, Bob, it was not my intention to tie in your modification with anything. I was merely pointing out that the poor design had required modifications such as your clamp and the increased diameter pins. I appreciate that you want to get flying again and my suggestion was not meant as the only answer. Plainly, the PFA in consultation Europa(2004) will devise a mod or series of mods to solve the immediate problem. However, in the longer term I do believe that the pitch control needs modification. New kits certainly need to have a system that is stronger and more durable. Perhaps along the lines that Graham is suggesting. Certainly Carls pin idea and the latch system discussed are all worthy of consideration for a long term fix for the current system. Jos, all you say is true. However these tens of thousands of hours have been amassed by a large number of low hour aircraft. As we get more high hour europas around, the problem is likely to become worse. The subject of sloppy tailplanes/pilot error and what we accept as serviceable to fly needs to be carefully worded, europa owners are not the only people to read the messages on this site. I think we would all be wise to avoid any pre-judging of William's tragic accident. My tailplanes have neglible play and the original pip pin holes were done in accordance with the manual. However, for aircraft that have shown wear, the tolerance allowed for the play between the tailplanes seems excessive to me. Can you imagine accepting such a movement between split elevators on a metal aircraft - certified or not. The standard of homebuilt europas will naturally vary with the ability of the builder. Therefore, I think it is essential to design a build for the lowest common denominator. The inspector should be the standards man, but with the utmost respect for our inspectors, there is variation there also. Why not have a re-designed system that takes the requirement for a subjective assessment out of the loop altogether. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with improving the current tailplane configuration such that it satisfies the airworthiness requirements. I will be implementing those improvements along with everyone else. For those operators who consider that to be enough, then it is not for me to comment on their decision. My major point is that I would like to see a modified pitch system that does not have any slop, that will provide a rugged tailplane that will stand up to rough grass strips for a long time and many hours. Obviously, the cost of new tailplanes will be considered an unnecessary expense by some people and that is up to them. If Europa(2004) design an improved torque tube, tailplanes and retention system. They can put me down as No1 on the list - NOW. regards, Mike ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:44:10 AM PST US From: "Jeremy Davey" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Because then, Tim, you=92ll never remove TP4 for maintenance again... At least, you won=92t without the need to replace it in its entirety, with all the difficulty of re-drilling accurately for the TP6 pip-pin holes. Kind regards, Jeremy From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Ward Sent: 17 July 2007 11:01 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 =EF=BB Why don't we get a certified welder to weld TP12 to TP04 to avoid any torsion stress on TP6 sleeve? Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street, Fendalton, CHRISTCHURCH 8052 Ph :64 03 3515166 Mob: 021 0640221 email: ward.t@xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: R=C3=A9mi Guerner Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:11 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Graham and Mike, I agree. Mod 73 is a very poor fix for a bad design. I like the idea of he single tube with a flange. I am also concerned about relying on a single pip pin to secure the tail plane to the aircraft. As there is no way to visually check that the pip pin is fully engaged and the balls are protruding below TP6, a pull test would be highly desirable. A special plier would be needed for that pull test. Alternatively, a big recess on the underside of the tail plane would allow an uneasy visual inspection with a flashlight. The rear wing pip pin can be checked that way. Moreover I like the idea of a back up tail plane locking device such as the spring loaded lever. Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 487 hours From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Mike I agree with you. A simple redesign would be to make TP5 and 6 one single tube, with lightening holes, weld a flange on it that bolts onto the inside of the root rib. Relying on a bond between epoxy and stainless steel is not sensible. imho I still wish we knew more about what went wrong with G-HOFC though. Graham Mike Parkin wrote: > > > Nigel, > > Unpopular as it may be, I think you are right. Mod 73 strikes me as a > very unsatisfactory fix for a poor design. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:50 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > Why go for belt, braces and piece of string solutions to a > problem that may not exist ? > Richard, I totally agree that when the AAIB report is published it may have nothing at all to do with TP6's and tailplane retention. The subject pre-dates the accident. But to suggest that there is not a problem in this area, is in my opinion a little off the mark. If there were no problem then all the TP12 pin replacements and Bob's excellent clamp system would not have been necessary in the first place. regards, Mike ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:52 AM PST US From: "Tim Ward" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Jeremy, Who wants to take it out? Is there likely to be maintenance on TP4? If it was easy to take out now why don't we do that and place the TP 14s for something better. The fact is it is very hard to take it out now, is it not? If you had to then the spot weld could be dismantled. Food for thought. Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street, Fendalton, CHRISTCHURCH 8052 Ph :64 03 3515166 Mob: 021 0640221 email: ward.t@xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeremy Davey To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 10:43 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Because then, Tim, you'll never remove TP4 for maintenance again... At least, you won't without the need to replace it in its entirety, with all the difficulty of re-drilling accurately for the TP6 pip-pin holes. Kind regards, Jeremy From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Ward Sent: 17 July 2007 11:01 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 =EF=BB Why don't we get a certified welder to weld TP12 to TP04 to avoid any torsion stress on TP6 sleeve? Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street, Fendalton, CHRISTCHURCH 8052 Ph :64 03 3515166 Mob: 021 0640221 email: ward.t@xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: R=C3=A9mi Guerner To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:11 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Graham and Mike, I agree. Mod 73 is a very poor fix for a bad design. I like the idea of he single tube with a flange. I am also concerned about relying on a single pip pin to secure the tail plane to the aircraft. As there is no way to visually check that the pip pin is fully engaged and the balls are protruding below TP6, a pull test would be highly desirable. A special plier would be needed for that pull test. Alternatively, a big recess on the underside of the tail plane would allow an uneasy visual inspection with a flashlight. The rear wing pip pin can be checked that way. Moreover I like the idea of a back up tail plane locking device such as the spring loaded lever. Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 487 hours From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Mike I agree with you. A simple redesign would be to make TP5 and 6 one single tube, with lightening holes, weld a flange on it that bolts onto the inside of the root rib. Relying on a bond between epoxy and stainless steel is not sensible. imho I still wish we knew more about what went wrong with G-HOFC though. Graham Mike Parkin wrote: > > > Nigel, > > Unpopular as it may be, I think you are right. Mod 73 strikes me as a > very unsatisfactory fix for a poor design. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:17 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Carl, Just because people do not conform with your own train of thought it does not mean that they are knee-jerking or the unfortunate sufferers of a Mass Paranoia. All it means is they have a different opinion to you. Those people, misguided as they may be, are entitled to their opinion..... as are you. regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 11:26 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > > Hear, Hear - I couldnt agree more. > > What will prevent future accidents is vigilance and care, not knee jerk > redesigns. > > The current PFA solution may not be perfect but it is simply intended to > bring ALL Europas up to a safe standad. The likelyhood is that 99% of > Europas are safe anyway (but we just dont know). > > I just dont see the need for mass paranoia. How many of us have checked th > security of our TP6 joints recently? How many of us found faulty bonds. I > suspect the answer is Zero. If I am wrong, Mod73 will fix that. > > I agree that a more robust fix should be implemented in the future but > IMHO this would be more about confidence in the Europa fleet then > increasing the safety factor. > > You cant get away from the fact that the Europa has shown itself to be a > very safe aircraft over the last 10 years. > > Carl Pattinson > G-LABS > > Still Flying (the Europa !!!) > >> >> Jos made the point. Hundreds of Europas have flown tens of >> thousands of hours without any previous sign of any >> serious problems in the elevator fixing. >> >> The AAIB have NOT yet reported (the interim report said >> nothing) and it may not have been the TP6 that was the >> primary cause of the accident. >> >> Why go for belt, braces and piece of string solutions to a >> problem that may not exist ? >> >> Any long term fix should be required not instantly but in >> the course of a reasonable period. But we do need a final >> solution not a series of solutions, each more onerous and >> complicated and expensive than the previous. >> >> Richard Holder >> G-OWWW High Cross >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > 269.10.8/904 - Release Date: 16/07/2007 17:42 > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:58 AM PST US From: "Jeremy Davey" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Tim, Well... my top isn=92t on and I=92ve had mine out a few times for various issues, inc. Mod 70. I=92d rather not make it fixed permanently in there. Also, won=92t welding there risk distortion in the brass bearings? Will a spot weld be sufficient? I=92m no engineer, but (speaking purely from gut feel) I doubt a spot weld will be strong enough. That said, I do have a strong preference for Nigel Graham=92s bolted solution to avoiding the slop that has caused TP6 breakaways. Easy to install, easy to retrofit, and will do the job permanently. As for tailplane lateral retention, I regret that none of the solutions so far have caught my eye as elegant, simple and effective L Regards, Jeremy From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Ward Sent: 17 July 2007 12:36 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Jeremy, Who wants to take it out? Is there likely to be maintenance on TP4? If it was easy to take out now why don't we do that and place the TP 14s for something better. The fact is it is very hard to take it out now, is it not? If you had to then the spot weld could be dismantled. Food for thought. Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street, Fendalton, CHRISTCHURCH 8052 Ph :64 03 3515166 Mob: 021 0640221 email: ward.t@xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeremy Davey Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 10:43 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Because then, Tim, you=92ll never remove TP4 for maintenance again... At least, you won=92t without the need to replace it in its entirety, with all the difficulty of re-drilling accurately for the TP6 pip-pin holes. Kind regards, Jeremy From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Ward Sent: 17 July 2007 11:01 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 =EF=BB Why don't we get a certified welder to weld TP12 to TP04 to avoid any torsion stress on TP6 sleeve? Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street, Fendalton, CHRISTCHURCH 8052 Ph :64 03 3515166 Mob: 021 0640221 email: ward.t@xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: R=C3=A9mi Guerner Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:11 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Graham and Mike, I agree. Mod 73 is a very poor fix for a bad design. I like the idea of he single tube with a flange. I am also concerned about relying on a single pip pin to secure the tail plane to the aircraft. As there is no way to visually check that the pip pin is fully engaged and the balls are protruding below TP6, a pull test would be highly desirable. A special plier would be needed for that pull test. Alternatively, a big recess on the underside of the tail plane would allow an uneasy visual inspection with a flashlight. The rear wing pip pin can be checked that way. Moreover I like the idea of a back up tail plane locking device such as the spring loaded lever. Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 487 hours From: Graham Singleton > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Mike I agree with you. A simple redesign would be to make TP5 and 6 one single tube, with lightening holes, weld a flange on it that bolts onto the inside of the root rib. Relying on a bond between epoxy and stainless steel is not sensible. imho I still wish we knew more about what went wrong with G-HOFC though. Graham Mike Parkin wrote: > > > Nigel, > > Unpopular as it may be, I think you are right. Mod 73 strikes me as a > very unsatisfactory fix for a poor design. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:56 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73-any pictures of work in progress? From: "morg42" Thanks to Steve for the pics and Carl for the words of wisdom. Clearly that advice is very sound and for us non-builders expert help would be the best option. So bearing that in mind is there any body in the South East who might be able to give practical help? There are 3 (sometimes 4) Europa's at Rochester and, perhaps if there are other owners (such as G-ROOV), who wanted to get together and pool expertise/resources, with an expert on hand, one weekend the job could be done with minimal fuss and minimal cock ups. Any thoughts and/or help would be appreciated. Andrew G-MFHI Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:41 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Mike, My intention is not to criticise or label anyone but I feel there has been a lot of unwarranted negativity - IMHO !!!!. Perhaps my choice of words was unfortunate and if so I apologise. What I am acutely aware of is this is a public forum and what we say here will find its way to the aviation community as a whole. Although i'm not planning to sell my plane anytime soon I sincerely hope that when I do the Europa hasn't acquired a misguided reputation for being a dangerous aircraft. It wouldnt surprise me if there weren't some Europa builders out there wondering what the hell have I got myself into. Despite the tragedy of the recent crash I personally havent lost confidence in the aircraft and will continue to fly it in the belief that it is as safe as we can make it. Mods are a fact of aviation life - 73 for the Europa so far. But i'm sure this is comparable with many other aircraft. Again, apologies to all if my comments have caused offence. Regards, Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Parkin" Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:49 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > > Carl, > > Just because people do not conform with your own train of thought it does > not mean that they are knee-jerking or the unfortunate sufferers of a Mass > Paranoia. All it means is they have a different opinion to you. Those > people, misguided as they may be, are entitled to their opinion..... as > are you. > > regards, > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Pattinson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 11:26 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > >> >> >> Hear, Hear - I couldnt agree more. >> >> What will prevent future accidents is vigilance and care, not knee jerk >> redesigns. >> >> The current PFA solution may not be perfect but it is simply intended to >> bring ALL Europas up to a safe standad. The likelyhood is that 99% of >> Europas are safe anyway (but we just dont know). >> >> I just dont see the need for mass paranoia. How many of us have checked >> th security of our TP6 joints recently? How many of us found faulty >> bonds. I suspect the answer is Zero. If I am wrong, Mod73 will fix that. >> >> I agree that a more robust fix should be implemented in the future but >> IMHO this would be more about confidence in the Europa fleet then >> increasing the safety factor. >> >> You cant get away from the fact that the Europa has shown itself to be a >> very safe aircraft over the last 10 years. >> >> Carl Pattinson >> G-LABS >> >> Still Flying (the Europa !!!) >> >>> >>> Jos made the point. Hundreds of Europas have flown tens of >>> thousands of hours without any previous sign of any >>> serious problems in the elevator fixing. >>> >>> The AAIB have NOT yet reported (the interim report said >>> nothing) and it may not have been the TP6 that was the >>> primary cause of the accident. >>> >>> Why go for belt, braces and piece of string solutions to a >>> problem that may not exist ? >>> >>> Any long term fix should be required not instantly but in >>> the course of a reasonable period. But we do need a final >>> solution not a series of solutions, each more onerous and >>> complicated and expensive than the previous. >>> >>> Richard Holder >>> G-OWWW High Cross >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> 269.10.8/904 - Release Date: 16/07/2007 17:42 >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:40 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73-any pictures of work in progress? From: "scudrunner" I'd like to add my voice as an non-builder owner in the South East (Sussex) who would welcome a group solution to getting through Mod 73 - I bought a small glider repair kit so I could have a practice with the materials before touching the plane and convincingly demonstrated to myself that I don't (yet) have the skill set required :oops: Rochester is within reach Howard Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:28 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Adequate Design? .----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" > Ivans idea behind the original tailplane attachment was to produce an easy > and quick way of rigging the aircraft. Regrettably time has proved this > design to be inadequate in terms of security. Carl, I think it's not correct to say that time has found the design to be inadequate. William's plane in one critically important respect was not built to design. He did not have a standard pip pin recess, but instead a hole rather like the undersurface drain hole, down which he fished with a sort of crochet hook to get the pin out William was intelligent, thoughtful and meticulous and also had more aeronautical engineering experience than nearly all of us, but the redesign of that area meant that he had no sensible way of checking the security of TP6 bonding, and also that there was nothing but foam to stop the tail plane migrating once a TP6 did disbond. Also he regularly dismantled his plane, so possibly was at greater risk of the TP6 becoming disbonded by repeated impact on the end of the torque tube. Like many of those who have contributed I felt considerable unease until I had an explanation for the known events: that is that the tail elements broke up/off while he was in level flight at 1000 ft and 100 kts or thereabouts, when it appears that there had been no problems with him having previously done his renewal test flying including a Vne dive. Flutter starting out of the blue a t such a speed made no sense when we know much of the fleet has varying degrees of slop yet regularly survive Vne dives.However the loosening of a TP6 with uncoupling of the tailplane drive pins is an entirely plausible explanation for the events as so far known, and makes me feel entirely comfortable with my plane again. As far as the solution goes I also disagree that it is a mere 'sticking plaster'. If the pip pin recess is as designed we can readily check the position and any movement of the TP6. To have shifted the tail plane laterally in relation to the pinned TP6 would entail tearing the pip pin through a visible fibreglass lay up and would have needed considerable force. To pull a TP6 disbonded from the rib through the upper lay up and the new underside lay up would, I strongly suspect, take several hundred pounds force - yet there are no strong lateral forces naturally occurring on the tail plane. On doing mod 73 I found my TP6 to be rock solid in the rib on each side, as indeed David Corbett reported for the three he has done. I for one will continue to enjoy flying my plane with the same confidence it has always given me (which is more than the confidence I have felt in various certified planes I have flown over the same period). Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane. From: "josok" Mike, In my humble opinion, part of the equation is the "PFA inspector approved" mentality. With all respect, a close to perfect system like you have in the UK, might put pilots to sleep, and make them less critical on what they rely their own and others life on. It's a tendency, for the authorities to take responsibility for the well-being of the individual away from that individual. In traffic, safety belts and crash helmets save lives. But by making them obligatory, the line is crossed. It makes folk think it's the authorities who are to blame if you walk head on into a lamp post. Should those not be cushioned? Cushioned lamp post probably would save lives...:-) I mean in the end it's a pilots decision, flyable or not. And for that all the facts, and an open discussion, available for everybody is needed. Already now became clear that some pilots do not have a clue about why and how their planes stay in the air. Shocking really! Hopefully the general level of knowledge is improved now. Remains the fact, that we have to wait for some official outcome of all those facts we are happily taking for granted here. And have some fresh discussion afterward. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:28 AM PST US From: "Nigel Graham" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 It must a sign that the Europa is dearer to our hearts than we care to admit that any talk of changing an accepted design evokes such emotional and polarised reaction. (.....and I would rather experience this than an apathetic silence!) As I see it there are two distinct issues: 1) Identifying and remedying the specific cause(s) of the G-HOFC incident. 2) Addressing the three design/assembly weaknesses in the Europa tail (yes 3 ....we have only discussed two so far, I'll save the third for later) that will guarantee a trustworthy and re-saleable aircraft. None of us knows for certain the cause of the accident, but we have identified definite design weaknesses during the search, TP5/TP6/pip-pin retention and secure locking of TP9/TP12. It is not unreasonable or in any way "knee jerk" engineering for members the group to consider the problems and proffer ideas for solutions. This is healthy discussion and some pretty good ideas have emerged. In any other situation, this would be called "brainstorming" and would be considered good. It is the nature of the beast that you will rarely get everyone to agree. The fact that the aircraft has flown for thousands of hours without incident is in no way an indication that there is no problem, (talk to anybody at Moreton-Thiakol about Space Shuttle propulsion systems) all it takes is the right (wrong) conditions. The nature of failures so far is directly related to the pattern/frequency of aircraft use. High-time aircraft or those used on rough strips run an increased risk of something in the tail failing. Ultimately, the regulating authorities will mandate changes considered "mission critical", and every individual has the freedom to invent his own solution and submit it to his regulator for approval. Nigel -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson Sent: 17 July 2007 11:27 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hear, Hear - I couldnt agree more. What will prevent future accidents is vigilance and care, not knee jerk redesigns. The current PFA solution may not be perfect but it is simply intended to bring ALL Europas up to a safe standad. The likelyhood is that 99% of Europas are safe anyway (but we just dont know). I just dont see the need for mass paranoia. How many of us have checked th security of our TP6 joints recently? How many of us found faulty bonds. I suspect the answer is Zero. If I am wrong, Mod73 will fix that. I agree that a more robust fix should be implemented in the future but IMHO this would be more about confidence in the Europa fleet then increasing the safety factor. You cant get away from the fact that the Europa has shown itself to be a very safe aircraft over the last 10 years. Carl Pattinson G-LABS Still Flying (the Europa !!!) > > Jos made the point. Hundreds of Europas have flown tens of > thousands of hours without any previous sign of any > serious problems in the elevator fixing. > > The AAIB have NOT yet reported (the interim report said > nothing) and it may not have been the TP6 that was the > primary cause of the accident. > > Why go for belt, braces and piece of string solutions to a > problem that may not exist ? > > Any long term fix should be required not instantly but in > the course of a reasonable period. But we do need a final > solution not a series of solutions, each more onerous and > complicated and expensive than the previous. > > Richard Holder > G-OWWW High Cross > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:47 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Europa-List: Tail plane- adequate design? I could and probably should have added that Andy Draper knows as much or probably more than anyone else about the Europa, and Francis Donaldson knows as much and probably more than anyone else about design, structure and safety of small aircraft & home builts - don't forget he is solely responsible for the system which in the UK gives Permit aircraft essentially the same safety record as GA certified aircraft - not something that applies in many countries. If these two say this is an appropriate solution, why should ordinary mortals doubt it? regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:40 AM PST US From: "peter.rees01@tiscali.co.uk" Subject: Europa-List: Non composite solution? There was some talk about a 'non composite' solution based on a sprung latch - does anyone know if any progress has been made with this or even if the PFA are activly looking at this as an alternative to Mod 73? Peter __________________________________________________ Tiscali Broadband only 7.99 a month for your first 3 months! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/ ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:30 AM PST US From: "Tony Wickens" Ivans idea behind the original tailplane attachent was to produce an easy and quick way of rigging the aircraft. Regrettably time has proved this design to be inadequate in terms of secuity. I'm sorry but this, as a fact, is untrue. All design is a compromise and clearly better locking of the tailplane system (Tailplane to balance weight) to eliminate the possibility of relative movement is desireable. However you are premature in your statement as the vast majority of Europas continue to perform faultlessly. Please wait for the final AAIB report and accept that in the meantime Mod 73 has been introduced as belt and braces, and to cover cases where aircraft might not have been built in compliance with the plans. Mod 73 seems to make the current design even safer in terms of a secondary security feature and enables inspection of the integrity of the TP6 bond. I would have been happier if a check, reportable to Europa Aircraft, had been included with the mod to report on the security of the TP6 bond prior to incorporation of Mod 73. I am currently incorporating Mod 73 on a monowheel which has been operating for 600 hours off of a rough grass airfield and there is absolutely no sign of disbonding of TP6. Mod 73 further secures and captures TP6 to the tailplane structure so lets get on and incorporate it, and cool the speculation until we have some facts to back it up. Now I am getting into my bunker, and prepare for incoming missiles, because perhaps my views are in a majority of one, unless anyone out there knows different. Tony Wickens ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:49 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73-any pictures of work in progress? It might be worth talking to Peter Kember or David Watts. They are based at Laddingford Graham scudrunner wrote: > > I'd like to add my voice as an non-builder owner in the South East (Sussex) who would welcome a group solution to getting through Mod 73 - > > I bought a small glider repair kit so I could have a practice with the materials before touching the plane and convincingly demonstrated to myself that I don't (yet) have the skill set required :oops: > > Rochester is within reach > > > Howard > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > > > > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:55 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Adequate Design? > > Carl, I think it's not correct to say that time has found the design to be > inadequate. William, I cant think of another way of summarising the "problem" other than to say that the TP6 installation has proved inadequate. What is certain is that if we knew then what we knew now the design would have been substantially different. IMHO the attachent of the TP6 sleeve to the structure isnt as robust as it could be and like several others I had concerns at the time over the manner in which it was bonded to the tailplane. Many builders took steps to improve the adhesion of the ring to the surrounding structure. In my case I scored the ring with a hacksaw at 45 degrees around the circumference. Whilst I never understod the implications of this component becoming disbonded I just felt from an engineering standpoint that it wasnt very good. In all other respects I agree totally with everything you said. The fact that David Corbett found all the TP6 attachments rock solid is encouraging. As I have said elsewhere I suspect that 99% of our aircraft are safe in this respect but even a 1% failure rate is unaccepable. Also thanks for explaining Williams pip pin setup - I wasnt aware it was so different. Like you I intend to continue to enjoy flying my Europa and have every confidence in the aircraft. Regards Carl >William's plane in one critically important respect was not > built to design. He did not have a standard pip pin recess, but instead a > hole rather like the undersurface drain hole, down which he fished with a > sort of crochet hook to get the pin out > William was intelligent, thoughtful and meticulous and also had > more aeronautical engineering experience than nearly all of us, but the > redesign of that area meant that he had no sensible way of checking the > security of TP6 bonding, and also that there was nothing but foam to stop > the tail plane migrating once a TP6 did disbond. Also he regularly > dismantled his plane, so possibly was at greater risk of the TP6 becoming > disbonded by repeated impact on the end of the torque tube. > Like many of those who have contributed I felt considerable unease > until I had an explanation for the known events: that is that the tail > elements broke up/off while he was in level flight at 1000 ft and 100 kts > or > thereabouts, when it appears that there had been no problems with him > having > previously done his renewal test flying including a Vne dive. Flutter > starting out of the blue a t such a speed made no sense when we know much > of > the fleet has varying degrees of slop yet regularly survive Vne > dives.However the loosening of a TP6 with uncoupling of the tailplane > drive > pins is an entirely plausible explanation for the events as so far known, > and makes me feel entirely comfortable with my plane again. > As far as the solution goes I also disagree that it is a mere > 'sticking plaster'. If the pip pin recess is as designed we can readily > check the position and any movement of the TP6. To have shifted the tail > plane laterally in relation to the pinned TP6 would entail tearing the pip > pin through a visible fibreglass lay up and would have needed > considerable > force. To pull a TP6 disbonded from the rib through the upper lay up and > the > new underside lay up would, I strongly suspect, take several hundred > pounds > force - yet there are no strong lateral forces naturally occurring on the > tail plane. On doing mod 73 I found my TP6 to be rock solid in the rib on > each side, as indeed David Corbett reported for the three he has done. > I for one will continue to enjoy flying my plane with the same > confidence it has always given me (which is more than the confidence I > have > felt in various certified planes I have flown over the same period). > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > >> > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:57 AM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Europa-List: Re: Tail Plane Blues OK I've been quiet long enough. I'm getting the tail plane blues! I'd write a song but I don't think any of the record producers here in Nashville would buy into it. I have a tri-gear quick build that has performed perfectly for 80+ hours. I have the compression fitting PVC covers that lots of others have used to cover the pip pins. They cannot come out. A quick view of these covers during the pre-flight shows they are in place. As far as the de-bounding of the tail plane from the TP6 you only need a quick pre-flight check by two people trying to move each tail plane opposite or doing this every 10 hours in my view is fine. No Slop No de-bonding. My trim tabs have no slop either and are quite secure with only the hinge movement. This I have made part of the pre-flight. I understand all the fuss and discussion but come on guys... we don't even know what happened yet for sure. I too am concerned about the de-valuing of this great plane by all this talk. Are we really gaining anything here. Lets pull the plug on this and get back to building and flying this incredable aircraft. Every time I fly N128LJ my smile gets bigger and bigger! And this is from a guy that was considering selling about 6 months ago. What the frick was I thinking ;0 I am now trying to sell my motorcycle so my wife will allow me to go for the Airmaster with the Sensenich blades I hear may be coming out. Now thats worth discussing! Please No Flaming... I get enough of that from my clients! Best Regards To All and happy flying! Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 80 hours and climbing slowly. Do Not Archive This! ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:42 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: Re: Tony, Im not sure exactly what it is you disagree with. If you had read my posts over the last 48hours you would realise we are on the same wavelength - and it would seem to be donning hard hats. It might surprise you to learn that I discussed Mod 73 with Andy Draper last week as he is currently carrying out test work (prior to the forthcoming mods) on one of the Europas at Bicester where my aircraft is hangared. You can remove the hard hat now. Regards Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Wickens To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 5:32 PM Ivans idea behind the original tailplane attachent was to produce an easy and quick way of rigging the aircraft. Regrettably time has proved this design to be inadequate in terms of secuity. I'm sorry but this, as a fact, is untrue. All design is a compromise and clearly better locking of the tailplane system (Tailplane to balance weight) to eliminate the possibility of relative movement is desireable. However you are premature in your statement as the vast majority of Europas continue to perform faultlessly. Please wait for the final AAIB report and accept that in the meantime Mod 73 has been introduced as belt and braces, and to cover cases where aircraft might not have been built in compliance with the plans. Mod 73 seems to make the current design even safer in terms of a secondary security feature and enables inspection of the integrity of the TP6 bond. I would have been happier if a check, reportable to Europa Aircraft, had been included with the mod to report on the security of the TP6 bond prior to incorporation of Mod 73. I am currently incorporating Mod 73 on a monowheel which has been operating for 600 hours off of a rough grass airfield and there is absolutely no sign of disbonding of TP6. Mod 73 further secures and captures TP6 to the tailplane structure so lets get on and incorporate it, and cool the speculation until we have some facts to back it up. Now I am getting into my bunker, and prepare for incoming missiles, because perhaps my views are in a majority of one, unless anyone out there knows different. Tony Wickens ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:42 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Fw: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Adequate Design? Not quite sure what happened - this got lost. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 6:23 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Adequate Design? > > >> Carl, I think it's not correct to say that time has found the design to >> be >> inadequate. > > William, > > I cant think of another way of summarising the "problem" other than to say > that the TP6 installation has proved inadequate. What is certain is that > if we knew then what we knew now the design would have been substantially > different. > > IMHO the attachent of the TP6 sleeve to the structure isnt as robust as it > could be and like several others I had concerns at the time over the > manner in which it was bonded to the tailplane. Many builders took steps > to improve the adhesion of the ring to the surrounding structure. In my > case I scored the ring with a hacksaw at 45 degrees around the > circumference. Whilst I never understod the implications of this component > becoming disbonded I just felt from an engineering standpoint that it > wasnt very good. > > In all other respects I agree totally with everything you said. The fact > that David Corbett found all the TP6 attachments rock solid is > encouraging. > > As I have said elsewhere I suspect that 99% of our aircraft are safe in > this respect but even a 1% failure rate is unaccepable. > > Also thanks for explaining Williams pip pin setup - I wasnt aware it was > so different. > > Like you I intend to continue to enjoy flying my Europa and have every > confidence in the aircraft. > > Regards > > Carl > >>William's plane in one critically important respect was not >> built to design. He did not have a standard pip pin recess, but instead a >> hole rather like the undersurface drain hole, down which he fished with a >> sort of crochet hook to get the pin out >> William was intelligent, thoughtful and meticulous and also had >> more aeronautical engineering experience than nearly all of us, but the >> redesign of that area meant that he had no sensible way of checking the >> security of TP6 bonding, and also that there was nothing but foam to stop >> the tail plane migrating once a TP6 did disbond. Also he regularly >> dismantled his plane, so possibly was at greater risk of the TP6 becoming >> disbonded by repeated impact on the end of the torque tube. >> Like many of those who have contributed I felt considerable >> unease >> until I had an explanation for the known events: that is that the tail >> elements broke up/off while he was in level flight at 1000 ft and 100 kts >> or >> thereabouts, when it appears that there had been no problems with him >> having >> previously done his renewal test flying including a Vne dive. Flutter >> starting out of the blue a t such a speed made no sense when we know much >> of >> the fleet has varying degrees of slop yet regularly survive Vne >> dives.However the loosening of a TP6 with uncoupling of the tailplane >> drive >> pins is an entirely plausible explanation for the events as so far known, >> and makes me feel entirely comfortable with my plane again. >> As far as the solution goes I also disagree that it is a mere >> 'sticking plaster'. If the pip pin recess is as designed we can readily >> check the position and any movement of the TP6. To have shifted the tail >> plane laterally in relation to the pinned TP6 would entail tearing the >> pip >> pin through a visible fibreglass lay up and would have needed >> considerable >> force. To pull a TP6 disbonded from the rib through the upper lay up and >> the >> new underside lay up would, I strongly suspect, take several hundred >> pounds >> force - yet there are no strong lateral forces naturally occurring on the >> tail plane. On doing mod 73 I found my TP6 to be rock solid in the rib on >> each side, as indeed David Corbett reported for the three he has done. >> I for one will continue to enjoy flying my plane with the same >> confidence it has always given me (which is more than the confidence I >> have >> felt in various certified planes I have flown over the same period). >> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:40 PM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Tail Plane Blues Jeff, What have you heard about the Airmaster/Sensenich combination? What are the advantages and, if substantial, can the Sensenich blades be retro fitted to an original Airmaster configuration...? Jeff - Baby Blue 300 hours and came through her 2nd annual with flying (pun intended) colors... JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > > OK I've been quiet long enough. I'm getting the tail plane blues! I'd > write a song but I don't think any of the record producers here in > Nashville would buy into it. > I have a tri-gear quick build that has performed perfectly for 80+ > hours. I have the compression fitting PVC covers that lots of others > have used to cover the pip pins. They cannot come out. A quick view > of these covers during the pre-flight shows they are in place. As far > as the de-bounding of the tail plane from the TP6 you only need a > quick pre-flight check by two people trying to move each tail plane > opposite or doing this every 10 hours in my view is fine. No Slop No > de-bonding. My trim tabs have no slop either and are quite secure with > only the hinge movement. This I have made part of the pre-flight. > I understand all the fuss and discussion but come on guys... we don't > even know what happened yet for sure. I too am concerned about the > de-valuing of this great plane by all this talk. Are we really gaining > anything here. Lets pull the plug on this and get back to building and > flying this incredable aircraft. > Every time I fly N128LJ my smile gets bigger and bigger! And this is > from a guy that was considering selling about 6 months ago. What the > frick was I thinking ;0 > I am now trying to sell my motorcycle so my wife will allow me to go > for the Airmaster with the Sensenich blades I hear may be coming out. > Now thats worth discussing! > Please No Flaming... I get enough of that from my clients! > Best Regards To All and happy flying! > > > Jeff R. > A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 80 hours and climbing slowly. > > Do Not Archive This! > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:56 PM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Tail Plane Blues I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know. Sorry... The rummer mill says they may be introducing the combination at Oshkosh. I am waiting to find it all out myself. I do know that the folks at Jabaru / Arion here in Shelbyville TN are having serious results with the new carbon fiber Sensenich. It's ground adjustable hub is supposed to be a very easy adjustment. It cools much better as the root has more twist at the root than the warp drive. If you remember there we're a lot of 912 powered sport pilot planes at Sun-N-Fun with it and most report good things. I may be switching to it even without the Airmaster as I'm still having cooling issues climbing out on hot days. This prop has been said to solve those with other 912/914 planes as a result of the root twist. I may spend my hub money on that 496... Got to have one!! Regards, Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 80 hours and climbing slowly. On Jul 17, 2007, at 2:47 PM, Jeff B wrote: > > Jeff, > > What have you heard about the Airmaster/Sensenich combination? What > are the advantages and, if substantial, can the Sensenich blades be > retro fitted to an original Airmaster configuration...? > > Jeff - Baby Blue > 300 hours and came through her 2nd annual with flying (pun intended) > colors... > > JEFF ROBERTS wrote: >> >> OK I've been quiet long enough. I'm getting the tail plane blues! I'd >> write a song but I don't think any of the record producers here in >> Nashville would buy into it. >> I have a tri-gear quick build that has performed perfectly for 80+ >> hours. I have the compression fitting PVC covers that lots of others >> have used to cover the pip pins. They cannot come out. A quick view >> of these covers during the pre-flight shows they are in place. As far >> as the de-bounding of the tail plane from the TP6 you only need a >> quick pre-flight check by two people trying to move each tail plane >> opposite or doing this every 10 hours in my view is fine. No Slop No >> de-bonding. My trim tabs have no slop either and are quite secure >> with only the hinge movement. This I have made part of the >> pre-flight. >> I understand all the fuss and discussion but come on guys... we don't >> even know what happened yet for sure. I too am concerned about the >> de-valuing of this great plane by all this talk. Are we really >> gaining anything here. Lets pull the plug on this and get back to >> building and flying this incredable aircraft. >> Every time I fly N128LJ my smile gets bigger and bigger! And this is >> from a guy that was considering selling about 6 months ago. What the >> frick was I thinking ;0 >> I am now trying to sell my motorcycle so my wife will allow me to go >> for the Airmaster with the Sensenich blades I hear may be coming out. >> Now thats worth discussing! >> Please No Flaming... I get enough of that from my clients! >> Best Regards To All and happy flying! >> >> >> >> Jeff R. >> A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 80 hours and climbing slowly. >> >> Do Not Archive This! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:32 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Colson Caster for a Tailwheel Fred, For the outriggers I am using Colson model 2.00004.445. They are 4" in diameter, 1.25" wide, bearing Performa rubber. I just 650 hours out a set working mosting on paved runways. Pretty impressive for what seems to be a shopping cart wheel. Cheers, Paul ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:53 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues From: Fred Klein > What have you heard about the Airmaster/Sensenich combination? It will be unveiled at Oshkosh > What are the advantages and, if substantial, can the Sensenich blades > be retro fitted to an original Airmaster configuration...? I believe (but cannot confirm absolutely) that the Airmaster/Sensenich combo is a two bladed configuration. Anyone interested in props and going to Oshkosh may want to check out Hanger C at booth 3109 and take a look at the Vari Prop exhibit; Vari Prop is owned by Larry Morgan, a past contributor on europa-list (see archive post below) and (I believe) the guy who got stiffed for a full kit when Europa went belly up. Larry will have a three blade CS set up for RV's w/ rather exotic blades designed by Paul Lipps. Paul has written me that Larry would be very interested in producing something specific for the Europa. Fred > From: < lmorgan822@aol.com > > Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 7:16 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Propeller discussions > > > Hi Jos, > > > > We have both a marine and aircraft prop. We have not built our web > site > > for the A/C prop yet. This weekend I am testing a 4 bladed variant > on a > > T-51 with a Rotax 914. We have 2, 3, and 4 bladed props, and two hub > > sizes. The larger hubs are designed for the direct drive engines in > the > > 180 to 350 HP, the smaller hubs are designed for the Rotax, Jabiru, > etc, > > although currently running on a 200 HP Chevy V6 in an RV6 with a > reduction drive. > > > > I am the owner of the company. We are an Oregon LLC. > > > > If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact > me at > > lmorgan822@hotmail.com. 503-804-5508. > > > > Thank you for your inquiry. > > > > Larry Morgan > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:44 PM PST US From: Paul Stewart Subject: Europa-List: ammeter I have a Westach 30-0-30 ammeter (shunted) but have lost what ever connectors came with it. On the bach the connections are made to a couple of pins - anyone know what sort of connecgtors to use? Regards paul G-GIDY ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:50 PM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues Hey Fred, I cannot go to Osh. but can you keep us advised on this. I would be very interested in the Paul Lipps design. You can give Larry my e-mail or phone if you want. Thanks, Jeff Roberts N128LJ On Jul 17, 2007, at 5:03 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > >> What have you heard about the Airmaster/Sensenich combination? > > It will be unveiled at Oshkosh > >> What are the advantages and, if substantial, can the Sensenich blades >> be retro fitted to an original Airmaster configuration...? > > I believe (but cannot confirm absolutely) that the Airmaster/Sensenich > combo is a two bladed configuration. > > Anyone interested in props and going to Oshkosh may want to check out > Hanger C at booth 3109 and take a look at the Vari Prop exhibit; Vari > Prop is owned by Larry Morgan, a past contributor on europa-list (see > archive post below) and (I believe) the guy who got stiffed for a full > kit when Europa went belly up. Larry will have a three blade CS set up > for RV's w/ rather exotic blades designed by Paul Lipps. Paul has > written me that Larry would be very interested in producing something > specific for the Europa. > Fred > >> From: < lmorgan822@aol.com > >> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 7:16 AM >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Propeller discussions >> > >> > Hi Jos, >> > >> > We have both a marine and aircraft prop. We have not built our web >> site >> > for the A/C prop yet. This weekend I am testing a 4 bladed variant >> on a >> > T-51 with a Rotax 914. We have 2, 3, and 4 bladed props, and two >> hub >> > sizes. The larger hubs are designed for the direct drive engines >> in the >> > 180 to 350 HP, the smaller hubs are designed for the Rotax, Jabiru, >> etc, >> > although currently running on a 200 HP Chevy V6 in an RV6 with a >> reduction drive. >> > >> > I am the owner of the company. We are an Oregon LLC. >> > >> > If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact >> me at >> > lmorgan822@hotmail.com. 503-804-5508. >> > >> > Thank you for your inquiry. >> > >> > Larry Morgan >> > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:09 PM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues Oooooh - that sounds good! Hi Fred, have you heard anything back from Paul Lipps or are you just going to wait and see what Vari Prop comes up with? Glenn zation; was: Tail Plane BluesFrom: fklein@orcasonline.comTo: europa-list@ma tronics.com What have you heard about the Airmaster/Sensenich combination? It will be unveiled at Oshkosh What are the advantages and, if substantial, can the Sensenich blades be re tro fitted to an original Airmaster configuration...?I believe (but cannot confirm absolutely) that the Airmaster/Sensenich combo is a two bladed conf iguration.Anyone interested in props and going to Oshkosh may want to check out Hanger C at booth 3109 and take a look at the Vari Prop exhibit; Vari Prop is owned by Larry Morgan, a past contributor on europa-list (see archi ve post below) and (I believe) the guy who got stiffed for a full kit when Europa went belly up. Larry will have a three blade CS set up for RV's w/ r ather exotic blades designed by Paul Lipps. Paul has written me that Larry would be very interested in producing something specific for the Europa. Fred From: < lmorgan822@aol.com >Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 7:16 AMSubject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Propeller discussions >> We have both a marine and aircraft prop. We have not built our web s ite > for the A/C prop yet. This weekend I am testing a 4 bladed variant o n a > T-51 with a Rotax 914. We have 2, 3, and 4 bladed props, and two hub > sizes. The larger hubs are designed for the direct drive engines in the > 180 to 350 HP, the smaller hubs are designed for the Rotax, Jabiru, etc, > although currently running on a 200 HP Chevy V6 in an RV6 with a reducti on drive.>> I am the owner of the company. We are an Oregon LLC.>> If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me at > lmorgan822@hotmail.com. 503-804-5508. > > Thank you for your inqu ==== _________________________________________________________________ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!-- http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlmailtextlink ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues From: Fred Klein On Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 04:40 PM, glenn crowder wrote: > Oooooh - that sounds good!- Hi Fred, have you heard anything back from > Paul Lipps or > are you just going to wait and see what Vari Prop comes up with? > - > ------------------------ ------------------------- --Glenn Glenn, Jeff, I'll try to briefly recap my communications w/ Paul Lipps vis a vis a prop for the Europa. My interest was piqued a while back by Mike Gregory's post referring to an article on Elippse props at: www.batterson.net/EAA499/Issue77_8-13.pdf (If anyone wants to read more of what Paul has to say about props and can digest the esoteric technical issues of prop design, go to: www.vansairforce.com/community/printthread.php?t=18593 and scroll down to "elippse".) (For background on my correspondence w/ Lipps, see my europa-list post of May 29, 2007.) I emailed Paul and he's interested in designing something for us; here is the last email from him: > From: "Paul Lipps" > Date: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:21:36 AM US/Pacific > To: "Fred Klein" > Subject: Re: prop for Europa > > Hello, Fred! > The apologies should be mine for not getting back to you sooner than > this. I've been caught up in a flurry of activity designing a couple of > props for biplane guys, plus working on the EFI I designed for Klaus > Savier. > Now to try to answer your questions. To get a good estimate of the > plane's > equivalent parasite drag area, I need to have accurate speed and > thrust of > the plane in level flight. Thrust is obtained from the engine power > and the > prop efficiency. I have to have a model of the prop to see how it > converts > engine power into thrust during the test period, which I don't have > for the > Airmaster. But even though the Great American isn't the best, I do > have a > good model of it in my equations. As far as Glenn's plane is > concerned, if I > can get the engine power and if his cowling and cooling system drag is > not > much different from the other Europas, that shouldn't be a problem. As > far > as cruise and climb efficiency is concerned, the three-blade prop on my > 125HP Lancair shows about 82% efficiency in a climb and about 90% in > cruise. > This climb efficiency is probably better that most FP props are in > cruise. > BUT, my blade design has low static and low-speed thrust, so that the > initial run up to 45-55 mph is much slower, than on a 200 mph prop. On > a > prop for a slower plane, with lower pitch, that might be to 30-40 mph. > But > it will take a longer takeoff run, maybe as much as 50%. But once you > get > past this blade stall region, as Tom Aberle puts it, it's like it has > cut in > the afterburner. My compensation would be a royalty paid by the prop > maker > on subsequent prop sales. Larry Morgan of Vari-Prop has entered into an > agreement with me for the design of blades for his CS and GA prop > hubs. He > will be showing the three-blade RV prop at Golden West at the end of > this > month and at Oshkosh. (Can't get myself to write that strange name > they've > come up with for the EAA event at Oshkosh!) I'm sure he would be > interested > in the Europa market. lmorgan724@yahoo.com, 503 804 5508. Again, please > forgive me for my lack of promptness for this reply. Paul I haven't moved this forward for several reasons. First, before his ref. to Vari-Prop above, my focus was on FP props and for reasons described in my May 29 europa-list post, it turned out to be not so simple to get a FP prop of Paul's design on a Rotax hub. Second, in my dreams, I've been wondering if there might be a way to get a Lipps blade working in conjunction w/ an Airmaster CS hub since so many Europa flyers have them. Then came the rumors of the Airmaster/Sensenich combination. So I've sort of been waiting for the dust tosettle... personally, I'm still trying to get my CM bonded in, so what business do I have pushing on optimal propellers? So to sum up, for Lipps to design something specific to the Europa, we need to get someone to bolt on Paul's Great American prop (w/ an SAE 1 bolt circle) and generate some flight test data. Alternatively, what Paul's developing for Vari Prop may be just the ticket. I'm happy to be the point man between Lipps and our Europas, but the ball's in the air and anyone can catch it and run with it. My apologies for the long post, but I've referenced other documents to keep it as short as possible. Fred ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues From: Fred Klein Glenn, Jeff, (All), Sorry, but there's an error on my earlier post today. I referenced "my post of May 29, 2007"...I should have referenced Glenn Crowder's post of May 30 for viewing correspondence I've had with Paul Lipps. (As I now recall, for some reason I was unable to post to the list on the 29th and I forwarded it to Glenn and asked him to post it. 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