---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/20/07: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:36 AM - Re: Mod 73 results (Richard Iddon) 2. 01:13 AM - Re: Mod 73 results (Brian Davies) 3. 01:28 AM - Re: Europa colours (Raimo Toivio) 4. 01:43 AM - Re: Mod 73 results (Peter Jeffers) 5. 01:45 AM - Re: First flight (steve v) 6. 02:07 AM - Re: Mod 73 results (David Watts) 7. 02:11 AM - Re: Colson Caster for a Tailwheel (karelvranken) 8. 02:17 AM - Re: Mod 73 results (Nigel Graham) 9. 02:34 AM - tail plane balancing (=?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?=) 10. 03:22 AM - Mod 73 results (nigel charles) 11. 03:24 AM - Re: Longer Pip Pins (Kingsley Hurst) 12. 03:54 AM - Re: Updated Oshkosh Lunch Bunch (bill&sue) 13. 04:47 AM - Re: Longer pip pins (R.C.Harrison) 14. 05:30 AM - Re: Mod 73 results (Richard Iddon) 15. 06:14 AM - Re: tail plane balancing (Graham Singleton) 16. 07:23 AM - Was TP6 bonding (now Tailplane Mass Balance) - Important Correction (Roger Mills) 17. 08:03 AM - Re: Europa colours (Rob Housman) 18. 08:54 AM - Re: Mod 73 results (Ron Jones) 19. 09:00 AM - Re: Europa colours (James) 20. 09:05 AM - Fw: Mod 73 results (Steve Pitt) 21. 09:40 AM - Re: Europa colours (JEFF ROBERTS) 22. 11:14 AM - Re: Mod 73 results (Brian Davies) 23. 11:22 AM - Re: Mod 73 results (David Watts) 24. 12:29 PM - Re: Mod 73 Fray (Brian Davies) 25. 12:39 PM - Fw: Mod 73 results (Steve Pitt) 26. 01:06 PM - TP6 Bonding Survey (bryan allsop) 27. 01:13 PM - Re: Mod 73 results (m.clews) 28. 01:26 PM - Re: Mod 73 Fray (Mike Gamble) 29. 01:58 PM - Re: First flight (josok) 30. 02:03 PM - Re: Mod 73 results (Arthur Orchard) 31. 02:20 PM - Re: Mod 73 results (nigel charles) 32. 03:01 PM - Re: Mod 73 Fray (Brian Davies) 33. 03:09 PM - Re: TP6 Bonding Survey (Brian Davies) 34. 03:16 PM - Re: Mod 73 results (colin smallwood) 35. 03:25 PM - Re: TP6 Bonding Survey (Carl Pattinson) 36. 09:56 PM - Re: Updated Oshkosh Lunch Bunch (Michael Grass) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:36:06 AM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Name Country Airplane reg. Type Progress on mod 73 Disbonding of TP6 pip pins used Any problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear Completed None found 2 in. Nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2" Nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not Done None Found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse. Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI tri gear completed none found 2" 18/07/2007 15:30 18/07/2007 15:30 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:07 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Ward Sent: 20 July 2007 01:52 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street, Fendalton, CHRISTCHURCH 8052 Ph :64 03 3515166 Mob: 021 0640221 email: HYPERLINK "mailto:ward.t@xtra.co.nz"ward.t@xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:jron.jones@tiscali.co.uk"Ron Jones Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 9:00 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Good idea, Richard! Name Country Airplane reg. Type Progress on mod 73 Disbonding of TP6 pip pins used Any problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Completed None found 2 in. Nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2" Nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not Done None Found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse. Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Done none 1.9 in none If anyone has any better idea, please feel free to add to the above, modify or offer suggestions. Once most members have done the mod the results can be emailed to the PFA although I guess that they will be monitoring this site. Richard Iddon G-RIXS 18/07/2007 15:30 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Europa-List 15:30 15:30 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:58 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Rob, I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their Europa=B4s undersides any colour but white. I still well remember Manual=B4s words: all the Europas must be white. I still have to point out the energy of the sun is NOT reflecting out of the black asphalt IMHO. That is why it is hot when a sunny day. It absorbs allmost all the heat energy and nothing is reflecting out. White surfaces are cool because they are reflecting out much more. So it could be more dangerous to keep it on the snow covered surface while a sunny day (or on white sand or water w Europa floats!). In Sweden there has been 10 years a wonderful full colour mid red Lancair 320 and no composite problems at all. Register # is SE-XOP (!). And like we all know in South America (Columbia?) there is flying a total deep yellow Europa. I think - with other colour as white - it is better to be even more careful. Beauty is a good reason for some extra work and some sacrifice. That is the fact all the women know. That is all. "Keep your full matt black Europa in the hangar and fly only night time if you wanna be absolutely sure" Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Housman To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 2:32 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa rules Mike - In re: dark paint Don't even think about it. Where we live and fly, on warm days the heat reflected off the ramp will be sufficient to soften the epoxy-fiberglass enough to reduce the strength of the structure. Sure it will be OK at altitude but you still have to climb away from the surface. Folks flying closer to the Arctic Circle don't have to worry about getting the airframe too hot. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DuaneFamly@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:23 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa rules Raimo, Congratulations to you and your aircraft. I think we can all stand a little taller and more proud when one of "our" planes tops the list of all in an entire country. Do you have any pix of you panel? Is the underside of your aircraft really painted dark? Black, blue, brown? Any reasoning for this? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:45 AM PST US From: "Peter Jeffers" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Iddon Sent: 20 July 2007 08:35 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Name Country Airplane reg. Type Progress on mod 73 Disbonding of TP6 pip pins used Any problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear Completed None found 2 in. Nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2" Nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not Done None Found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse. Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI tri gear completed none found 2" Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear completed None original well within limits 18/07/2007 15:30 18/07/2007 15:30 "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Europa-List 15:30 15:30 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:18 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight From: "steve v " Well Done & Congratulations Jos, seeing it lift for the first time is an exdrordinary feeling, steve vestuti G-CEBV #573 Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:07:08 AM PST US From: "David Watts" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results 3 more added to the list. These last 3 on the list have all been completed by me over a 3 day period. 2 Half days and 1 day of about 2 hours. Dave Watts G-BXDY Classic Monowheel 1250 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Iddon To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 8:35 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Name Country Airplane reg. Type Progress on mod 73 Disbonding of TP6 pip pins used Any problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear Completed None found 2 in. Nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2" Nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not Done None Found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri gear Completed None found 2" Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono Completed None Found 2" Sarah Attubato UK G-BXDP Mono Completed None Found 2" These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono Completed None found 2" 18/07/2007 15:30 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:11:21 AM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Colson Caster for a Tailwheel Paul and Nichol, The problem is not the weight capacity but the bearings for high speeds. Karel Vranken, #447 F-PKRL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Euan Nichol" Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:26 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Colson Caster for a Tailwheel > > Hi Paul, > You could look at Fallshaws who seem to have been making castors for > ever "down-under". They have a huge range 30-10,000kg !!. > Contact Fallshaw Castors -- wwww.castorsandindustrial.com.au > Best wishes > Euan Nichol > Victoria University, Australia ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:17:49 AM PST US From: "Nigel Graham" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Jeffers To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 9:43 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Iddon Sent: 20 July 2007 08:35 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Name Country Airplane reg. Type Progress on mod 73 Disbonding of TP6 pip pins used Any problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear Completed None found 2 in. Nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2" Nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not Done None Found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse. Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI tri gear completed none found 2" Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear completed None original well within limits 18/07/2007 15:30 18/07/2007 15:30 Date: 18/07/2007 15:30 18/07/2007 15:30 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:44 AM PST US From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?= Subject: Europa-List: tail plane balancing I agree that balancing the tail plane outside the aircraft is a lot better than doing it in situ. Doing it that way, I discovered that my tail planes were significantly overbalanced. I removed a total of 365 grams from the mass balance, part of which was due to the heavier Mod 70 balance arm. It is always nice to have an opportunity to reduce your airplane weight. Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 493 hours Carl I could be corrected too but imho because the rest of the pitch control system only moves fore and aft it won't influence balance, so I would think balancing disconnected is OK. The rest of system will affect natural resonant frequency but not the initial response due to G loading. Tell me if I' wrong? Graham Carl Pattinson wrote: > Roger, > > I am willing to stand corrected but my understanding is that the > balancing should be done with the torque tube "in situ" and with the > rest of the control system connected. > > The control system forward of the torque tube horn will have a bearing > on the overall balance of the pitch installation. Disconnecting this > IMHO will give a less than optimum setup. > > Carl Pattinson > G-LABS > > > 3. While the tailplanes and torque tube were out of the aircraft I > decided to do a check of the mass balance and was surprised to find > the assembly 78g too heavy at the weight end. I genuinely thought I > had achieved a good re-balance in situ after mod 70 but the friction > in the control system was enough to mask the imbalance. How many > more Europas are like this and might it have contributed to the > accident? > Since correct mass balance is so critical and removal of the torque > tube (albeit a pain) takes less than a day's work, it might be worth > doing this at the same time as mod 73 - giving the advantage of > peace of mind and also being able to use your own torque tube for a > better layup than wrapping tape around plastic pipe as some have > suggested? > > Hope this helps! > > Roger Mills ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:06 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Having done Mod 73 I have the following comments to offer: 1. As peel ply can suck resin from the cloth I find it is important to make sure it is well wetted out when laying it in position. Otherwise a partially dry lay is discovered after peeling off after cure. 2. As a result of the above I found that resin had puddle slightly in the bottom of the lay up. This has added a small amount to the final thickness which has ensured that I need longer pip pins. 3. By chance I have a length of aluminium tube which is a perfect sliding fit to avoid having to do the lay up on the aircraft. Even a patch of the thinnest packing tape almost gets scraped from the tube as it is inserted. With a little grease it did finally make it through to the lay up area. This tube was long enough to do both tailplanes together and is available for loan. Name Country Airplane reg. Type Progress on mod 73 Disbonding of TP6 pip pins used Any problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear Completed None found 2 in. Nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2" Nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not Done None Found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri gear Completed None found 2" Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono Completed None Found 2" Sarah Attubato UK G-BXDP Mono Completed None Found 2" These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono Completed None found 2" Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2" Nothing major. Regards Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:30 AM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Longer Pip Pins Carl Pattinson wrote :- > Is there any reason why one couldnt cut away a small amount of the bottom > bid layups using the tip of a twist drill - just enough to allow the pip > to open. I cant see this compromising the strength of the bottom layups. Hello Carl, I am sure someone else asked this very question a few days ago and AFAIK it wasn't taken up by anybody. At the time, I couldn't see any reason myself and was hoping someone would oblige. At this moment however, my mind must be a bit clearer because I think I can now see quite a good reason. I am not all that knowledgeable on Mod 73 but I know it requires the lay-up of Bid onto the TP6 bush and the nearby rib. If the hole that is drilled through the new lay-up is a neat fit around the Pip Pin shaft, any loads taken by the TP6 bush will be shared by 1 the bond between the lay-ups and the TP 6 bush 2 The new joggle the lay-up forms over the end of the TP 6 bush and 3 by the lay-up through to the rib courtesy of the firm fit of the Pip Pin in the new hole just drilled. Should the hole be enlarged even slightly, (eg to allow expansion of the Pip Pin balls), Item 3 above would be negated. It seems to me that Mod 73 attempts to provide a two belts and braces solution as opposed to just a belt and braces one. I always think it is a pity with instructions when they say "don't do something" without explaining the reason therefore. To less experienced persons, the reason can sometimes not be very obvious so if it is explained, not only is general knowledge gained but one will naturally have more respect for the prohibition and be less likely to ignore it. Hope this makes sense. Regards Kingsley in Oz. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:33 AM PST US From: bill&sue Subject: Re: Europa-List: Updated Oshkosh Lunch Bunch Add me! Bill Sisley (New Zealand) Cell 12627700793 Monowheel 27th On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 22:23:14 +0000, kbcarpenter@comcast.net wrote: > Add my name to the list: Ken Carpenter Cell 865 805 3520 Dates 22-28 > Mono > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "ALAN YERLY" > > Name Cell Dates > Type Europa > Bud Yerly 813 244-8354 24-27 > Tri gear > Rich Schultz 713-703-2156 21-27 > Tri gear > Bob Borger 817-992-1117 21-27 > Monowheel > Ira Rampil 631-335-9582 21-27 > Tri gear > Linda Rampil 631-335-9583 21-27 > Tri gear > Karl Heindl None 21-27 > Tri gear C-FIRS > Brian Davies 44 792 1083 599 UK 25-28 > Trigear > Rick Stockton 707-303-1717 23-27 > Tri gear > Pete Zutrauen 613-850-5551 21-27 > Future Mono > John Wigney 704-231-7865 23-28 > Mono XS - at 'Home Built Camping > Michael Grass 586-822-0333 22-26 > Trigear Driving in > Goff Moore 44 7808 296388 UK 22-29 > Tri-gear > Paul McAllister 262-993-4483 21-28 > Mono > Thomas Theron 920-230-8283 > Monowheel(South African Camp) > Roelf Theron 920-230-8283 > Tri Gear(South African Camp) > > Regrets since posting: > John Banhagel > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:37 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: Europa-List: RE: Longer pip pins Hi! Richard/all I will not require any longer pip pins than the 1.75" ones I have as original equipment. IMHO there can be no valid reason to need longer ones so long as the new pip pin hole/flox only diameter is slightly larger to accommodate the expanding balls. (or am I missing something? I just tried mine after hand drilling the hole through with a light behind the upper surface hole. Of course originally I thought "hell I really do need longer pins" THEN ON CLOSER EXAMINATION I found that back in my distant memory the pins are originally supplied with a "nuisance" secondary ring round the head of the pin.....which most folks that I have seen have removed for our applications because in the tight pip pin access hole it is a nuisance. So when testing for the security of the pins after fitting only pull the actual head or push the pin from the underside, so long as the balls are expanded the pin is secure. As an aside my pins are encompassed by a screw cap partly filled to a predetermined depth which would act as secondary security anyway. The bottom of the pip pin access hole is filled with a flox mix to a depth nearly equivalent to the length of the pip pin head so in the event of "tail plane attempting to migrate" the pip pin head would restrain any lateral movement. My bushes were totally secure with only hacksaw abrasion for the bonding of the TP6 bushes. I'm sorry we are having to remove that original bond with mod 73 since to cut into the bond even from only one side stops the original bond on the opposite side of the torque tube being "clamped" as one construction. I will add my reg. to the list when final close out is complete and inspected. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG (Phase one Mod 73 complete and inspected. 914 first run up completed but with oil pressure sensor "hot wired" and one mag kill switch not working and "suggested" factory assembly residual oil being expelled though the muffler on backing off the throttle? ) -----Original Message----- From: Richard Holder [mailto:rholder@avnet.co.uk] Sent: 19 July 2007 13:55 Subject: Longer pip pins Hi all I have ordered these pip pins. I have been promised that I will get them next Thursday - we will see ! ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:17 AM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results OK. I have transferred the results so far to a spreadsheet which I have copied and pasted below. I am not an expert so hope it works. Please fill in the blanks. And send it back to the forum. If anyone has been missed off I apologise but it is getting a little complicated. It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono Completed None found 1.9in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BXDP Mono Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major 18/07/2007 15:30 18/07/2007 15:30 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:38 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: tail plane balancing Remi I forgot the weight of the trim tab control arm does affect tailplane balance, so balancing outside the fuselage is not quite so simple. Graham Rmi Guerner wrote: > > I agree that balancing the tail plane outside the aircraft is a lot > better than doing it in situ. Doing it that way, I discovered that my > tail planes were significantly overbalanced. I removed a total of 365 > grams from the mass balance, part of which was due to the heavier Mod 70 > balance arm. It is always nice to have an opportunity to reduce your > airplane weight. > > Remi Guerner > > F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 493 hours > > > Carl > I could be corrected too but imho because the rest of the pitch control > system only moves fore and aft it won't influence balance, so I would > think balancing disconnected is OK. The rest of system will affect > natural resonant frequency but not the initial response due to G loading. > Tell me if I' wrong? > Graham ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:28 AM PST US From: "Roger Mills" Subject: Europa-List: Was TP6 bonding (now Tailplane Mass Balance) - Important Correction Apologies everyone - an oversight on my part! I thought I'd update you before anyone repeats my mistake of checking the tailplane balance outside the aircraft. Even with the errors induced by the control system friction - it is indeed best to balance the tailplane in the fuselage rather than outside. The reason for this is not because of the elevator pushrod and joystick, which don't contribute to the static balance, but because of the trim pushrod and cross tube assembly - which do, to a surprising extent. Once the trim drive pushrod weight was added to the tab pins at the back, 58 of the 78 grams removed from the mass balance had to be added back to regain balance. I will definitely be doing a final balance re-check once everything is re-assembled on the fuselage! Best regards Roger Mills ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:45 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours Sorry Raimo, but this is dangerous thinking for those of us flying in warmer climes. In my previous post I deliberately avoided getting into too much technical detail, and I used the word =93reflected=94 where I should have used the technically correct term =93emitted.=94 First, you seem to misunderstand heat transfer. You are correct that the sun=92s energy is not reflected from a black surface. However, a =93black body=94 is not only a perfect absorber but also a perfect emitter, which is to say it may not be reflecting solar heating but it surely emits it. Park on a black surface and the solar energy absorbed by that surface will be re-radiated to the underside of the aircraft, and if that aircraft is any color but white it will absorb too much energy. Any material absorbing energy will increase in temperature. Sure, there will be some re-radiation from the dark aircraft structure but that is irrelevant because the epoxy-fiberglass will already have softened. Second, the Lancair aircraft all use a different composite than Europa. Here=92s how Lancair describes their composites on their web site http://www.lancair.com/Main/legacy.html --- =93Like every Lancair, the Legacy=92s major airframe is constructed of advanced composite materials. Cured at 270 degrees Fahrenheit under vacuum pressure, these NASA tested, epoxy based composites are among the lightest, strongest, stiffest materials known. The high-temperature, pre-impregnated carbon fiber and/or fiberglass systems combined with Nomex/honeycomb core materials are considered the supreme composite airframe materials of choice worldwide.=94 Note that the Lancair=92s composites are cured at a much higher temperature than the factory and we cure the Europa structural components. The =93glass transition temperature=94 is approximately the cure temperature so softening of the composite does not begin until approximately T sub g is reached. For a detailed explanation to T sub g see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_transition_temperature For our purposes we can consider the glass transition temperature the softening temperature, above which the structure loses a significant portion of its strength. Anyone contemplating painting a Europa any color other than white (including yellow) should review the chart in the Builders Manual, Figure 1, Colour-Temperature Relationship, on page 36-1 of the Europa XS Tri-Gear Manual, Issue 1, dated 30 May 1998. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:28 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Rob, I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their Europa=B4s undersides any colour but white. I still well remember Manual=B4s words: all the Europas must be white. I still have to point out the energy of the sun is NOT reflecting out of the black asphalt IMHO. That is why it is hot when a sunny day. It absorbs allmost all the heat energy and nothing is reflecting out. White surfaces are cool because they are reflecting out much more. So it could be more dangerous to keep it on the snow covered surface while a sunny day (or on white sand or water w Europa floats!). In Sweden there has been 10 years a wonderful full colour mid red Lancair 320 and no composite problems at all. Register # is SE-XOP (!). And like we all know in South America (Columbia?) there is flying a total deep yellow Europa. I think - with other colour as white - it is better to be even more careful. Beauty is a good reason for some extra work and some sacrifice. That is the fact all the women know. That is all. "Keep your full matt black Europa in the hangar and fly only night time if you wanna be absolutely sure" Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Housman Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 2:32 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa rules Mike ' In re: dark paint Don=92t even think about it. Where we live and fly, on warm days the heat reflected off the ramp will be sufficient to soften the epoxy-fiberglass enough to reduce the strength of the structure. Sure it will be OK at altitude but you still have to climb away from the surface. Folks flying closer to the Arctic Circle don=92t have to worry about getting the airframe too hot. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DuaneFamly@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa rules Raimo, Congratulations to you and your aircraft. I think we can all stand a little taller and more proud when one of "our" planes tops the list of all in an entire country. Do you have any pix of you panel? Is the underside of your aircraft really painted dark? Black, blue, brown? Any reasoning for this? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop _____ Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com . http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:03 AM PST US From: "Ron Jones" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results so hope it works. Please fill in the blanks. And send it back to the forum. If anyone has been missed off I apologise but it is getting a little complicated. It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono 320 Both Completed None found Original None Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono Completed None found 1.9in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BXDP Mono Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:17 AM PST US From: "James" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours Anyone remember the factory demonstrator N914XS with the blue belly? After two or so years in the US sun that plane needed repairs to the front fuselage as the engine weight was sagging the footwell area of the plane while it was hot. Needless to say after it was reapaired it was repainted white. As Rob H said even yellow can get a bit warmer that white, and I've sprayed one yellow myself. Paint em' white, or fly em' at night! Jim T. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 11:02 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours Sorry Raimo, but this is dangerous thinking for those of us flying in warmer climes. In my previous post I deliberately avoided getting into too much technical detail, and I used the word =93reflected=94 where I should have used the technically correct term =93emitted.=94 First, you seem to misunderstand heat transfer. You are correct that the sun=92s energy is not reflected from a black surface. However, a =93black body=94 is not only a perfect absorber but also a perfect emitter, which is to say it may not be reflecting solar heating but it surely emits it. Park on a black surface and the solar energy absorbed by that surface will be re-radiated to the underside of the aircraft, and if that aircraft is any color but white it will absorb too much energy. Any material absorbing energy will increase in temperature. Sure, there will be some re-radiation from the dark aircraft structure but that is irrelevant because the epoxy-fiberglass will already have softened. Second, the Lancair aircraft all use a different composite than Europa. Here=92s how Lancair describes their composites on their web site http://www.lancair.com/Main/legacy.html --- =93Like every Lancair, the Legacy=92s major airframe is constructed of advanced composite materials. Cured at 270 degrees Fahrenheit under vacuum pressure, these NASA tested, epoxy based composites are among the lightest, strongest, stiffest materials known. The high-temperature, pre-impregnated carbon fiber and/or fiberglass systems combined with Nomex/honeycomb core materials are considered the supreme composite airframe materials of choice worldwide.=94 Note that the Lancair=92s composites are cured at a much higher temperature than the factory and we cure the Europa structural components. The =93glass transition temperature=94 is approximately the cure temperature so softening of the composite does not begin until approximately T sub g is reached. For a detailed explanation to T sub g see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_transition_temperature For our purposes we can consider the glass transition temperature the softening temperature, above which the structure loses a significant portion of its strength. Anyone contemplating painting a Europa any color other than white (including yellow) should review the chart in the Builders Manual, Figure 1, Colour-Temperature Relationship, on page 36-1 of the Europa XS Tri-Gear Manual, Issue 1, dated 30 May 1998. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:28 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Rob, I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their Europa=B4s undersides any colour but white. I still well remember Manual=B4s words: all the Europas must be white. I still have to point out the energy of the sun is NOT reflecting out of the black asphalt IMHO. That is why it is hot when a sunny day. It absorbs allmost all the heat energy and nothing is reflecting out. White surfaces are cool because they are reflecting out much more. So it could be more dangerous to keep it on the snow covered surface while a sunny day (or on white sand or water w Europa floats!). In Sweden there has been 10 years a wonderful full colour mid red Lancair 320 and no composite problems at all. Register # is SE-XOP (!). And like we all know in South America (Columbia?) there is flying a total deep yellow Europa. I think - with other colour as white - it is better to be even more careful. Beauty is a good reason for some extra work and some sacrifice. That is the fact all the women know. That is all. "Keep your full matt black Europa in the hangar and fly only night time if you wanna be absolutely sure" Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Housman Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 2:32 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa rules Mike ' In re: dark paint Don=92t even think about it. Where we live and fly, on warm days the heat reflected off the ramp will be sufficient to soften the epoxy-fiberglass enough to reduce the strength of the structure. Sure it will be OK at altitude but you still have to climb away from the surface. Folks flying closer to the Arctic Circle don=92t have to worry about getting the airframe too hot. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DuaneFamly@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa rules Raimo, Congratulations to you and your aircraft. I think we can all stand a little taller and more proud when one of "our" planes tops the list of all in an entire country. Do you have any pix of you panel? Is the underside of your aircraft really painted dark? Black, blue, brown? Any reasoning for this? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop _____ Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com . http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:46 AM PST US From: "Steve Pitt" Subject: Fw: Europa-List: Mod 73 results ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Iddon Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:28 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results OK. I have transferred the results so far to a spreadsheet which I have copied and pasted below. I am not an expert so hope it works. Please fill in the blanks. And send it back to the forum. If anyone has been missed off I apologise but it is getting a little complicated. It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear 46 Grass Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono Completed None found 1.9in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BXDP Mono Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major 18/07/2007 15:30 18/07/2007 15:30 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:31 AM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours This is very correct Jim. I have light tan or gold accents on N128LJ. It is a metallic light gold so I figured it to be a very acceptable reflective / emitted color. On a sunny day the difference to the touch is the difference between very warm and neutral to the touch. Even in the winter months on a sunny day reach out and touch a black car then a white and you'll know the color to paint your plane. Keep it white and keep it strong. Regards, Jeff R. On Jul 20, 2007, at 10:55 AM, James wrote: > Anyone remember the factory demonstrator N914XS with the blue belly? > After two or so years in the US sun that plane needed repairs to the > front fuselage as the engine weightwas sagging the footwell area of > the plane while it was hot. Needless to say after it was reapairedit > was repainted white. As Rob H said even yellow can get a bit warmer > that white, and I've sprayed one yellow myself. > Paint em' white, or fly em' at night! > > Jim T. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob >> Housman >> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 11:02 AM >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours >> >> Sorry Raimo, but this is dangerous thinking for those of us flying in >> warmer climes. >> >> In my previous post I deliberately avoided getting into too much >> technical detail, and I used the word reflected where I should have >> used the technically correct term emitted. >> >> First, you seem to misunderstand heat transfer. You are correct that >> the suns energy is not reflected from a black surface. However, a >> black body is not only a perfect absorber but also a perfect >> emitter, which is to say it may not be reflecting solar heating but >> it surely emits it. Park on a black surface and the solar energy >> absorbed by that surface will be re-radiated to the underside of the >> aircraft, and if that aircraft is any color but white it will absorb >> too much energy. Any material absorbing energy will increase in >> temperature. Sure, there will be some re-radiation from the dark >> aircraft structure but that is irrelevant because the >> epoxy-fiberglass will already have softened. >> >> Second, the Lancair aircraft all use a different composite than >> Europa. Heres how Lancair describes their composites on their web >> site http://www.lancair.com/Main/legacy.html --- >> >> Like every Lancair, the Legacys major airframe is constructed of >> advanced composite materials. Cured at 270 degrees Fahrenheit under >> vacuum pressure, these NASA tested, epoxy based composites are among >> the lightest, strongest, stiffest materials known. >> >> The high-temperature, pre-impregnated carbon fiber and/or fiberglass >> systems combined with Nomex/honeycomb core materials are considered >> the supreme composite airframe materials of choice worldwide. >> >> Note that the Lancairs composites are cured at a much higher >> temperature than the factory and we cure the Europa structural >> components. The glass transition temperature is approximately the >> cure temperature so softening of the composite does not begin until >> approximately T sub g is reached. For a detailed explanation to T >> sub g see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_transition_temperature >> For our purposes we can consider the glass transition temperature the >> softening temperature, above which the structure loses a significant >> portion of its strength. >> >> Anyone contemplating painting a Europa any color other than white >> (including yellow) should review the chart in the Builders Manual, >> Figure 1, Colour-Temperature Relationship, on page 36-1 of the Europa >> XS Tri-Gear Manual, Issue 1, dated 30 May 1998. >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Rob Housman >> Irvine, California >> Europa XS Tri-Gear >> S/N A070 >> Airframe complete >> >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo >> Toivio >> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:28 AM >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours >> >> Rob, >> >> I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their >> Europas undersides any colour but white. I still well >> remember Manuals words: all the Europas must be white. >> >> I still have to point out the energy of the sun is NOT >> reflecting out of the black asphalt IMHO. That is why >> it is hot when a sunny day. It absorbs allmost all the heat >> energy and nothing is reflecting out. White surfaces are >> cool because they are reflecting out much more. >> >> So it could be more dangerous to keep it on the snow covered >> surface while a sunny day (or on white sand or water w Europa >> floats!). >> >> In Sweden therehas been 10 years awonderfulfull colour mid red >> Lancair 320 >> and no composite problems at all. Register # is SE-XOP (!).And like >> we all know in South America (Columbia?) there is flying a totaldeep >> yellow Europa. >> >> I think - with other colour as white - it is better to beeven more >> careful. >> Beauty is a good reason for some extra work and some sacrifice. >> That is the fact all the women know. That is all. >> >> "Keep your full matt black Europain the hangar and fly only night >> time if you wanna be absolutely sure" >> >> Raimo >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Rob Housman >>> To: europa-list@matronics.com >>> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 2:32 AM >>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa rules >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> In re: dark paint >>> >>> Dont even think about it. Where we live and fly, on warm days the >>> heat reflected off the ramp will be sufficient to soften the >>> epoxy-fiberglass enough to reduce the strength of the structure. >>> Sure it will be OK at altitude but you still have to climb away from >>> the surface. Folks flying closer to the Arctic Circle dont have to >>> worry about getting the airframe too hot. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Rob Housman >>> Irvine, California >>> Europa XS Tri-Gear >>> S/N A070 >>> Airframe complete >>> >>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >>> DuaneFamly@aol.com >>> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:23 PM >>> To: europa-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa rules >>> >>> Raimo, >>> >>> Congratulations to you and your aircraft. I think we can all stand a >>> little taller and more proud when one of "our" planes tops the list >>> of all in an entire country. >>> >>> Do you have any pix of you panel? Is the underside of your aircraft >>> really painted dark? Black, blue, brown? Any reasoning for this? >>> >>> >>> Mike Duane A207A >>> Redding, California >>> XS Conventional Gear >>> Jabiru 3300 >>> Sensenich R64Z N >>> Ground Adjustable Prop >>> >>> >>> >>> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. >>> >>> >>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >>> http://forums.matronics.com >>> >>> >>> >>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http:// >>> www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// >>> forums.matronics.com >>> >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http:// >> www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// >> forums.matronics.com >> > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:01 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Hmm.. Something has got scambled in the move! My aircraft is the only one with 1.9 in pip pins but that info seems to have moved to Graham Drake. It probably does not matter too much because the important info at the moment (early days) is that no TP6 bushes have disbonded. Brian Davies _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Pitt Sent: 20 July 2007 17:04 Subject: Fw: Europa-List: Mod 73 results ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:riddon@sent.com"Richard Iddon Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:28 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results OK. I have transferred the results so far to a spreadsheet which I have copied and pasted below. I am not an expert so hope it works. Please fill in the blanks. And send it back to the forum. If anyone has been missed off I apologise but it is getting a little complicated. It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear 46 Grass Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear 20 mixed Completed None found 2in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono Completed None found 1.9in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BXDP Mono Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major 18/07/2007 15:30 18/07/2007 15:30 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Europa-List 18:10 18:10 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:53 AM PST US From: "David Watts" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Filled in 3 aircraft Dave Watts G-BXDY / G-CCOV / G-BWDP ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Jones To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results so hope it works. Please fill in the blanks. And send it back to the forum. If anyone has been missed off I apologise but it is getting a little complicated. It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono 320 Both Completed None found Original None Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono 60 Mostly Hard Completed None found 1.9in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BWDP Mono N/A N/A Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono 1250 Mostly Grass Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:26 PM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 Fray Steve, The PFA were made aware of the many builders that have incorporated this change and they determined that this arrangement did not meet the requirement to provide a secondary retention for TP6. In fact, this is what led to the grounding of many UK Europas. Personnally, I think the very quick issue of Mod 73 was as a result of the PFA becoming aware of so many non standard pip pin recesses. I think they were a bit shocked because the build manual is quite clear in saying that changes to the recess requires PFA mod approval (in the UK). Mod 73 may not be elegant but it does create a known build standard across the fleet and removes the need to tear out the many non standard arrangements (for UK owners). In case you think I am sounding rather "holier than thou"" over this - I was also grounded because of non standard pip pin recesses. Brian Davies -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hagar Sent: 21 July 2007 06:13 Subject: Europa-List: Mod 73 Fray I have been keeping out of the fray as I did not want to add to the 30 or so E mails every night. This doesn't apply to the European types as they must pay homage to the PFA. I am surprised to note that no one has mentioned a modification that was detailed in what I believe was sent in to the Europa Newsletter when it was being published years ago. I had done this to my tail planes and it appears to be pretty robust and not dependent on the TP6 debonding to keep the integrity of mating of the drive pins at the tail plane root. The deviation involved making a receptacle in the top of the tailplane out of an internally threaded PVC pipe stub. Mine has about an inch and a half inside diameter. This is positioned so that the pip pin is almost touching the inboard periphery of the ID. Debonding of TP6 would result in the pin acting in shear against the inside of the receptacle, holding the tailplane in place. I turned the OD of the unit a little over 2" before I bonded down into the meaty thickness of the upper tailplane. A plug was turned to thread into the cavity top so this holds the pip pin in weather the balls are sprung or not. I don't have alot of hours on the aircraft yet for a history however it has been rigged and derigged at least 75~100 times. I have had the TP5's come loose and have done work on them. These are exposed to greater stress as when you put the planes on and they are not exactly level you invariably have some levering action going on until you get things started and pushed in. Just My 2 cents Steve Hagar A143 Mesa AZ N40SH > [Original Message] > From: josok > To: > Date: 7/14/2007 11:01:39 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > > Hi Richsrd, > > http://www.europaclub.org.uk/mods/improved_tp5_and_tp6_sleeve_retention.shtm l > > Europa club pages, > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > 15:30 15:30 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:55 PM PST US From: "Steve Pitt" Subject: Fw: Europa-List: Mod 73 results ----- Original Message ----- From: David Watts Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 7:20 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Filled in 3 aircraft Dave Watts G-BXDY / G-CCOV / G-BWDP ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Jones To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results so hope it works. Please fill in the blanks. And send it back to the forum. If anyone has been missed off I apologise but it is getting a little complicated. It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear 46 Grass Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono 320 Both Completed None found Original None Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono 60 Mostly Hard Completed None found 1.9in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BWDP Mono N/A N/A Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono 1250 Mostly Grass Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:36 PM PST US From: bryan allsop Subject: Europa-List: TP6 Bonding Survey Whilst I can see the attractions of carrying out Richards suggestion for a live listing of mod 73 findings, I feel that it will fall a long way short of what I had in mind. In the long term there are three problems with it. 1 . Time scale. It could take a while for some people to complete the mod. In that time most will loose the motivation to participate inthe survey. 2. C onfidentiality. Many people may not wish to have details of their aircrafts 's shortcomigs on public display. In which case any bond failures are less likely to be reported. 3. Completeness. Since we would have no way of knowi ng how complete the feedback is, we would never know when the survey has an y value. It would be nice to have 100% response. I feel that any survey sho uld be authorised by our committee. The committee has a full list of Euopas , and their owners. It will be easy to establish when a response is missing . Members can respond in confidence knowing that aircraft details will not be shown with the results. Sorry Mike, it sounds like a job for the Safety Officer.It should be remembered that many aircraft will not be modified by their owners, the info may have to come from the inspectors, or the people employed to carry out the mod., via the owner.Perhaps responses should be l isted against age, model of Europa (are Monos less vulnerable, or Classics, or Trikes). OK, it sounds rather ponderous now. Sorry about that. Regrds t o all. Bryan Allsop G BYSA _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one pla ce! Find it! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:13:20 PM PST US From: "m.clews" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Just finished ours G-OMIK Mike so hope it works. Please fill in the blanks. And send it back to the forum. If anyone has been missed off I apologise but it is getting a little complicated. It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear 46 Grass Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono 320 Both Completed None found Original None Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono 60 Mostly Hard Completed None found 1.9in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BWDP Mono N/A N/A Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono 1250 Mostly Grass Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major Mike Clews UK G-OMIK Mono 500 Grass Completed None found Original nothing major href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:14 PM PST US From: "Mike Gamble" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 Fray Brian, Am I correct in thinking then that a modified pip pin cavity on the top surface can remain as is, complete with plastic fitting with screw top, whilst the new one is constructed as per mod 73 in the under surface? Mike Gamble XS 440 mono ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Davies" Mod 73 may not > be elegant but it does create a known build standard across the fleet and > removes the need to tear out the many non standard arrangements (for UK > owners). > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:58:59 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight From: "josok" Thanks to all for the very good wishes. It feels very good to see there are so many friends out there. Today was the ruff day. Ivan pulled a few stunts, pulled harder on the plane then i thought would be possible, and since everything is still in place, i am convinced that the bird will stay in one piece whatever load you put on it. There is a nice buffet before every possible stall. To stall this bird unnoticed is impossible. Altogether, a good day, very relaxing to know that the bird is as safe as can be. Now still work to be done to be a safe pilot. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:11 PM PST US From: "Arthur Orchard" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Arthur Orchard uk G-JOST Tri Gear 17.5 hrs Tar/Mac completed none found original nothing found ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Pitt To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 5:03 PM Subject: Fw: Europa-List: Mod 73 results ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Iddon To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:28 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results OK. I have transferred the results so far to a spreadsheet which I have copied and pasted below. I am not an expert so hope it works. Please fill in the blanks. And send it back to the forum. If anyone has been missed off I apologise but it is getting a little complicated. It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear 46 Grass Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono Completed None found 1.9in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BXDP Mono Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major 18/07/2007 15:30 18/07/2007 15:30 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:29 PM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of m.clews Sent: 20 July 2007 21:13 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Just finished ours G-OMIK Mike so hope it works. Please fill in the blanks. And send it back to the forum. If anyone has been missed off I apologise but it is getting a little complicated. It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear 46 Grass Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono 320 Both Completed None found Original None Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono 60 Mostly Hard Completed None found 1.9in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BWDP Mono N/A N/A Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono 1250 Mostly Grass Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono 200 Mostly Grass Completed None found 2in. nothing major Mike Clews UK G-OMIK Mono 500 Grass Completed None found Original nothing major href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronh ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronh ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronh ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:25 PM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 Fray Mike, To quote from Francis Donaldson letter of 12 July, " Installing Europa mod 73 removes the requirement for the existing pip-pin recesses to comply with the dimensional criteria specified in PFA 247/FSB-006." I have interpreted that to mean leave things alone on the top surface. Brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gamble Sent: 20 July 2007 21:23 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 Fray --> Brian, Am I correct in thinking then that a modified pip pin cavity on the top surface can remain as is, complete with plastic fitting with screw top, whilst the new one is constructed as per mod 73 in the under surface? Mike Gamble XS 440 mono ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Davies" Mod 73 may not > be elegant but it does create a known build standard across the fleet > and removes the need to tear out the many non standard arrangements > (for UK owners). > 18:10 18:10 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:35 PM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: TP6 Bonding Survey Hi Bryan, I will leave the safety officer to respond fully , but please be aware that we have about 400 members in the Europa Club worldwide and approximately 1000 kits sold, so we have no way of getting the complete picture. Also. not every owner follows this listing. I do have some information on kits sold to non members but it is very out of date and could not be trusted to give an accurate picture of current ownership or build state. Brian Davies. Europa Club membership sec. _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bryan allsop Sent: 20 July 2007 21:05 Subject: Europa-List: TP6 Bonding Survey Whilst I can see the attractions of carrying out Richards suggestion for a live listing of mod 73 findings, I feel that it will fall a long way short of what I had in mind. In the long term there are three problems with it. 1. Time scale. It could take a while for some people to complete the mod. In that time most will loose the motivation to participate inthe survey. 2. Confidentiality. Many people may not wish to have details of their aircrafts's shortcomigs on public display. In which case any bond failures are less likely to be reported. 3. Completeness. Since we would have no way of knowing how complete the feedback is, we would never know when the survey has any value. It would be nice to have 100% response. I feel that any survey should be authorised by our committee. The committee has a full list of Euopas, and their owners. It will be easy to establish when a response is missing. Members can respond in confidence knowing that aircraft details will not be shown with the results. Sorry Mike, it sounds like a job for the Safety Officer. It should be remembered that many aircraft will not be modified by their owners, the info may have to come from the inspectors, or the people employed to carry out the mod., via the owner. Perhaps responses should be listed against age, model of Europa (are Monos less vulnerable, or Classics, or Trikes). OK, it sounds rather ponderous now. Sorry about that. Regrds to all. Bryan Allsop G BYSA _____ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! HYPERLINK "http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01"Find it! "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Europa-List 18:10 18:10 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:00 PM PST US From: "colin smallwood" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Iddon To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:28 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results OK. I have transferred the results so far to a spreadsheet which I have copied and pasted below. I am not an expert so hope it works. Please fill in the blanks. And send it back to the forum. If anyone has been missed off I apologise but it is getting a little complicated. It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono Completed None found 1.9in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BXDP Mono Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major Colin Smallwood UK G-DEBR Tri Gear Tarmac W.I.P None found 2in TP5 Port,Moved .25" Outboard 18/07/2007 15:30 18/07/2007 15:30 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 19/07/2007 18:10 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:48 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: TP6 Bonding Survey I dont want to knock anybodys worthy efforts in compiling a list of Mod 73'ers but I agree whole heartedly that this job would be better handled by the Europa club committee. My pesonal view (which I have stated before) is that inspectors should be required report irregularities/ problems as a matter of routine to either the PFA or the aircraft manfacturer so that results can be collated and potential accidents pre-empted. Unfortunately this isnt going to happen. I agree that confidentiality is a big issue and those of us who find irregularities may choose not add their details to the list. This will create the impression that everything in the garden is rosy when it may in fact not be. Another complication is that some of us (me included) may choose to fly off the 10 hours allowed before undertaking the work so it may be some time before a complete list is compiled. Finally many Europa owners are not membersof this forum so will be excluded from the survey. The only way to produce a meaningful survey would be for the factory to require all Europa owners to participate in the survey which would be collated by either themselves or the PFA. The advantage of channeling this exercise through the Europa club (assuming they would accept the task) is that individual annonymity could be guaranteed and only the figures need be reported back to the authorities. I am totally in favour with your proposal Bryan but I will be happy to add my details to the current list if the EC arent able step into the breach. ----- Original Message ----- From: bryan allsop To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 9:05 PM Subject: Europa-List: TP6 Bonding Survey Whilst I can see the attractions of carrying out Richards suggestion for a live listing of mod 73 findings, I feel that it will fall a long way short of what I had in mind. In the long term there are three problems with it. 1. Time scale. It could take a while for some people to complete the mod. In that time most will loose the motivation to participate inthe survey. 2. Confidentiality. Many people may not wish to have details of their aircrafts's shortcomigs on public display. In which case any bond failures are less likely to be reported. 3. Completeness. Since we would have no way of knowing how complete the feedback is, we would never know when the survey has any value. It would be nice to have 100% response. I feel that any survey should be authorised by our committee. The committee has a full list of Euopas, and their owners. It will be easy to establish when a response is missing. Members can respond in confidence knowing that aircraft details will not be shown with the results. Sorry Mike, it sounds like a job for the Safety Officer. It should be remembered that many aircraft will not be modified by their owners, the info may have to come from the inspectors, or the people employed to carry out the mod., via the owner. Perhaps responses should be listed against age, model of Europa (are Monos less vulnerable, or Classics, or Trikes). OK, it sounds rather ponderous now. Sorry about that. Regrds to all. Bryan Allsop G BYSA ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! Find it! ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:47 PM PST US From: "Michael Grass" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Updated Oshkosh Lunch Bunch ----- Original Message ----- From: ALAN YERLY Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 5:54 PM Subject: Europa-List: Updated Oshkosh Lunch Bunch Name Cell Dates Type Europa Bud Yerly 813 244-8354 24-27 Tri gear Rich Schultz 713-703-2156 21-27 Tri gear Bob Borger 817-992-1117 21-27 Monowheel Ira Rampil 631-335-9582 21-27 Tri gear Linda Rampil 631-335-9583 21-27 Tri gear Karl Heindl None 21-27 Tri gear C-FIRS Brian Davies 44 792 1083 599 UK 25-28 Trigear Rick Stockton 707-303-1717 23-27 Tri gear Pete Zutrauen 613-850-5551 21-27 Future Mono John Wigney 704-231-7865 23-28 Mono XS - at 'Home Built Camping Michael Grass 586-822-0333 22-26 Trigear Driving in Goff Moore 44 7808 296388 UK 22-29 Tri-gear Paul McAllister 262-993-4483 21-28 Mono Thomas Theron 920-230-8283 Monowheel(South African Camp) Roelf Theron 920-230-8283 Tri Gear(South African Camp) Ken Carpenter 865 805 3520 22-28 Mono Capt. Myron Haluschak None 23-29 Mono XS, building Bill Sisley (New Zealand) 12627700793 27 Monowheel Regrets since posting: John Banhagel href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.