---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/23/07: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:03 AM - coolant-hoses (rob zeelenberg) 2. 07:26 AM - AW: coolant-hoses (Ing. Gottfried Komaier) 3. 08:54 AM - Re: Mod 73 results (Trevpond@aol.com) 4. 08:57 AM - Re: coolant-hoses (rob zeelenberg) 5. 09:41 AM - Re: coolant-hoses (Pete Lawless) 6. 09:42 AM - Mod 73 listing (Richard Holder) 7. 09:49 AM - evans, temps (josok) 8. 09:54 AM - Re: Mod 73 results (David Watts) 9. 09:57 AM - Re: coolant-hoses (Michel AUVRAY) 10. 10:04 AM - Re: evans, temps (Michel AUVRAY) 11. 10:04 AM - Re: evans, temps (Jeff B) 12. 10:46 AM - Re: Mod 73 results (Bob Fairall) 13. 10:52 AM - Re: Mod 73 listing (Richard Iddon) 14. 10:56 AM - Re: Europa colours (Raimo Toivio) 15. 11:05 AM - Re: Mod 73 listing (gregoryf.flyboy) 16. 11:12 AM - Re: Mod 73 listing (gregoryf.flyboy) 17. 11:20 AM - Re: Europa colours (Gert Dalgaard) 18. 12:02 PM - Re: Mod 73 listing (Richard Iddon) 19. 12:02 PM - Re: Re: Europa rules (Raimo Toivio) 20. 12:16 PM - Re: evans, temps (josok) 21. 12:36 PM - Re: evans, temps (Steve Pitt) 22. 12:37 PM - Re: Europa colours (Raimo Toivio) 23. 12:53 PM - Angle of Attack (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 24. 12:59 PM - Re: evans, temps (m.clews) 25. 01:56 PM - Re: Angle of Attack (josok) 26. 02:14 PM - Mod 73 results (Ron Jones) 27. 03:23 PM - Re: Angle of Attack (Rob Housman) 28. 03:43 PM - Re: Angle of Attack (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 29. 04:01 PM - Re: First flight (karelvranken) 30. 04:14 PM - Re: Angle of Attack (Graham Singleton) 31. 04:40 PM - Re: evans, temps (Rman) 32. 08:44 PM - x tended range (Finklea) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:03 AM PST US From: "rob zeelenberg" Subject: Europa-List: coolant-hoses Hi forum, As I want to change my coolant and oil-hoses for my rotax 912 I remember there has been someone mentioning there were hoses available I think from sweden ? for the 914 engine they were blue and in development for the 912 ? anyone who can help me out here in finding the mail-adress about this ?? kind regards rob zeelenberg (phpop) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:47 AM PST US From: "Ing. Gottfried Komaier" Subject: AW: Europa-List: coolant-hoses Hi Rob, here comes for what you are looking for: Stefan Ingemarsson Magasinsgatan 2 SE-541 34 Sk=F6vde Sweden Stefan Ingemarsson [ingemarsson.s@telia.com] Regards, Gottfried Komaier _____ Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von rob zeelenberg Gesendet: Montag, 23. Juli 2007 16:01 An: europa-list@matronics.com Betreff: Europa-List: coolant-hoses Hi forum, As I want to change my coolant and oil-hoses for my rotax 912 I remember there has been someone mentioning there were hoses available I think from sweden ? for the 914 engine they were blue and in development for the 912 ? anyone who can help me out here in finding the mail-adress about this ?? kind regards rob zeelenberg (phpop) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:33 AM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results OK. I have transferred the results so far to a spreadsheet which I have copied and pasted below. I am not an expert so hope it works. Please fill in the blanks. And send it back to the forum. If anyone has been missed off I apologise but it is getting a little complicated. It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono Completed None found 1.9in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BXDP Mono Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major Trev Pond UK G-LINN Tri Gear Grass Completed None found Original none 18/07/2007 15:30 18/07/2007 15:30 (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:26 AM PST US From: "rob zeelenberg" Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant-hoses Hi Gottfried ,most kind ,thanks for the info Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: Ing. Gottfried Komaier To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 4:26 PM Subject: AW: Europa-List: coolant-hoses Hi Rob, here comes for what you are looking for: Stefan Ingemarsson Magasinsgatan 2 SE-541 34 Sk=F6vde Sweden Stefan Ingemarsson [ingemarsson.s@telia.com] Regards, Gottfried Komaier ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von rob zeelenberg Gesendet: Montag, 23. Juli 2007 16:01 An: europa-list@matronics.com Betreff: Europa-List: coolant-hoses Hi forum, As I want to change my coolant and oil-hoses for my rotax 912 I remember there has been someone mentioning there were hoses available I think from sweden ? for the 914 engine they were blue and in development for the 912 ? anyone who can help me out here in finding the mail-adress about this ?? kind regards rob zeelenberg (phpop) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:16 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: coolant-hoses Rob Can you copy me in on any information re costs & delivery? I have a 912 installed in a Classic. Thanks Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rob zeelenberg Sent: 23 July 2007 16:55 Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant-hoses Hi Gottfried ,most kind ,thanks for the info Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: Ing. Gottfried Komaier Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 4:26 PM Subject: AW: Europa-List: coolant-hoses Hi Rob, here comes for what you are looking for: Stefan Ingemarsson Magasinsgatan 2 SE-541 34 Sk=F6vde Sweden Stefan Ingemarsson [ingemarsson.s@telia.com] Regards, Gottfried Komaier _____ Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von rob zeelenberg Gesendet: Montag, 23. Juli 2007 16:01 An: europa-list@matronics.com Betreff: Europa-List: coolant-hoses Hi forum, As I want to change my coolant and oil-hoses for my rotax 912 I remember there has been someone mentioning there were hoses available I think from sweden ? for the 914 engine they were blue and in development for the 912 ? anyone who can help me out here in finding the mail-adress about this ?? kind regards rob zeelenberg (phpop) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:27 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Europa-List: Mod 73 listing Team I don't know if anyone else has been having trouble reading the list of completed Mod 73 aircraft. I have. I just get a list with one item on each line. I have taken the liberty of creating something much more readable in .pdf format. Of course it is non-editable, but I suggest that all other reports should come to me and I will add them to the list and republish - say twice a week. I am fairly certain that after the "tag your details onto the end of this" approach, several sets of info have been lost. I took this list from trevpond's email of this afternoon. To that end please check the attached .pdf and mail me direct with any omissions, changes or additions. The bad news is that when I post my results I will end up destroying the perfect symmetry of "no TP6 disbonding found" :-( Richard Holder G-OWWW High Cross ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:40 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: evans, temps From: "josok" Hi All, Is there still somebody using Evans,and if so, what temps do you see? Regards, Jos Okhuijsen [/u] Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:25 AM PST US From: "David Watts" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results ----- Original Message ----- From: Trevpond@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results OK. I have transferred the results so far to a spreadsheet which I have copied and pasted below. I am not an expert so hope it works. Please fill in the blanks. And send it back to the forum. If anyone has been missed off I apologise but it is getting a little complicated. It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono Completed None found 2in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BXDP Mono Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major Trev Pond UK G-LINN Tri Gear Grass Completed None found Original none 18/07/2007 15:30 18/07/2007 15:30 f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Europa-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:20 AM PST US From: "Michel AUVRAY" Subject: RE: Europa-List: coolant-hoses Hi Rob, I change all of my hoses in my 912, I used a GATES hose Internal diameter 17 mm PN DIN 73411 For fuel lines: Internal diameter 7.5mm PN DIN 73 379 Hutchinson or Gates All of these hoses have double skin with fabric in the middle Somes others company produces these DIN references. Normally these hoses are available in a Automotive shop. Michel Auvray -----Message d'origine----- De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]De la part de rob zeelenberg Envoy : lundi 23 juillet 2007 16:01 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Europa-List: coolant-hoses Hi forum, As I want to change my coolant and oil-hoses for my rotax 912 I remember there has been someone mentioning there were hoses available I think from sweden ? for the 914 engine they were blue and in development for the 912 ? anyone who can help me out here in finding the mail-adress about this ?? kind regards rob zeelenberg (phpop) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:52 AM PST US From: "Michel AUVRAY" Subject: RE: Europa-List: evans, temps Hi Jos, We used only the Volkswagen G012 coolant liquid dilution is 2/3 as like hundred of Rotax users. 2/3=-24C 1/1=-36C 2/1=-54C - No corrosive - No combustible - Auto obturating (if you have small leaks) - Life guarantee (no replace the liquid) - Normal price 12 for 1.5 liter Available on all VW shop Evans is combustible... no comments! Michel -----Message d'origine----- De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]De la part de josok Envoy : lundi 23 juillet 2007 18:46 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Europa-List: evans, temps Hi All, Is there still somebody using Evans,and if so, what temps do you see? Regards, Jos Okhuijsen [/u] Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:56 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: evans, temps Jos, I'm using Evans in Baby Blue. Yesterday was a fairly hot day, 90+ F. Temps, on climb out were: Water 230F, CHT 230 - 240F, Oil 200F. Temps in cruise are about: Water 200F, CHT 210F, Oil 190F. I've had absolutely no problems with the Evans coolant. BTW, I'm using the standard, Rotax supplied cap. Engine is a 912S. Jeff - Baby Blue 304 hrs josok wrote: > > Hi All, > > Is there still somebody using Evans,and if so, what temps do you see? > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > [/u] > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:03 AM PST US From: "Bob Fairall" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Watts Sent: 23 July 2007 17:54 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results ----- Original Message ----- From: Trevpond@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results OK. I have transferred the results so far to a spreadsheet which I have copied and pasted below. I am not an expert so hope it works. Please fill in the blanks. And send it back to the forum. If anyone has been missed off I apologise but it is getting a little complicated. It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono Completed None found 2in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BXDP Mono Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major TrevPond UK G-LINN Tri Gear Grass Completed None found Original none Bob Fairall UK G-BXLK Mono 385 Grass Completed None found 2" None 18/07/2007 15:30 18/07/2007 15:30 f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron.matroni cs.com/">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:01 AM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 listing Richard. Thanks for taking this on. I have attached the most complete spreadsheet that I have managed to compile from results posted on the forum. I also paste it below. You should be able to read one or the other. Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear 46 Grass Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono 320 Both Completed None found Original None Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear 20 mixed Completed None found 1.9in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono 60 Mostly Hard Completed None found 2in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BWDP Mono N/A N/A Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono 1250 Mostly Grass Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major Mike Clews UK G-OMIK Mono 500 Grass Completed None found Original nothing major Arthur Orchard uk G-JOST Tri Gear 17.5 hrs Tar/Mac completed none found original nothing found Colin Smallwood UK G-DEBR Tri Gear Tarmac W.I.P None found 2in TP5 Port,Moved .25" Outboard Alasdair Milne UK G-CBYN Tri Gear Completed None original none Trev Pond UK G-LINN Tri Gear Grass Completed None found Original none Richard Iddon G-RIXS -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Holder Sent: 23 July 2007 17:41 Subject: Europa-List: Mod 73 listing Team I don't know if anyone else has been having trouble reading the list of completed Mod 73 aircraft. I have. I just get a list with one item on each line. I have taken the liberty of creating something much more readable in .pdf format. Of course it is non-editable, but I suggest that all other reports should come to me and I will add them to the list and republish - say twice a week. I am fairly certain that after the "tag your details onto the end of this" approach, several sets of info have been lost. I took this list from trevpond's email of this afternoon. To that end please check the attached .pdf and mail me direct with any omissions, changes or additions. The bad news is that when I post my results I will end up destroying the perfect symmetry of "no TP6 disbonding found" :-( Richard Holder G-OWWW High Cross 22/07/2007 19:02 22/07/2007 19:02 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:52 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Hi Rob As I wrote "I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their Europa=B4s undersides any colour but white. I still well remember Manual=B4s words: all the Europas must be white." and "I think - with other colour as white - it is better to be even more careful. " and "Keep your full matt black Europa in the hangar and fly only night time if you wanna be absolutely sure" Anyway - I called to my friend Jukka Paavolainen, who has build and still flies his Lancair 320 OH-XJP. He said his Lancair is just on ordinary glasfibre - epox system and definetely not baked in high temparatures. Only the cowlings - because of the engine and exhaust heat - has been made by more heat resistant phenolresins. His Lancair kit is year model 1990 and so is my earlier example SE-XOP, which is overall deepred and beautiful Swedish Lancair 320. I believe newer models are as you described made by adanced composite materials. You wrote " Park on a black surface and the solar energy absorbed by that surface will be re-radiated to the underside of the aircraft, and if that aircraft is any color but white it will absorb too much energy. " and I still think you are wrong. I am going to talk to one thermodynamist, who works as a doctor in Tampere Univercity. Maybe he can make this thing clear. I promise to come back and tell what he know. Also if I am wrong... Fly it - do not melt it... Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Housman To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 6:02 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours Sorry Raimo, but this is dangerous thinking for those of us flying in warmer climes. In my previous post I deliberately avoided getting into too much technical detail, and I used the word "reflected" where I should have used the technically correct term "emitted." First, you seem to misunderstand heat transfer. You are correct that the sun's energy is not reflected from a black surface. However, a "black body" is not only a perfect absorber but also a perfect emitter, which is to say it may not be reflecting solar heating but it surely emits it. Park on a black surface and the solar energy absorbed by that surface will be re-radiated to the underside of the aircraft, and if that aircraft is any color but white it will absorb too much energy. Any material absorbing energy will increase in temperature. Sure, there will be some re-radiation from the dark aircraft structure but that is irrelevant because the epoxy-fiberglass will already have softened. Second, the Lancair aircraft all use a different composite than Europa. Here's how Lancair describes their composites on their web site http://www.lancair.com/Main/legacy.html --- "Like every Lancair, the Legacy's major airframe is constructed of advanced composite materials. Cured at 270 degrees Fahrenheit under vacuum pressure, these NASA tested, epoxy based composites are among the lightest, strongest, stiffest materials known. The high-temperature, pre-impregnated carbon fiber and/or fiberglass systems combined with Nomex/honeycomb core materials are considered the supreme composite airframe materials of choice worldwide." Note that the Lancair's composites are cured at a much higher temperature than the factory and we cure the Europa structural components. The "glass transition temperature" is approximately the cure temperature so softening of the composite does not begin until approximately T sub g is reached. For a detailed explanation to T sub g see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_transition_temperature For our purposes we can consider the glass transition temperature the softening temperature, above which the structure loses a significant portion of its strength. Anyone contemplating painting a Europa any color other than white (including yellow) should review the chart in the Builders Manual, Figure 1, Colour-Temperature Relationship, on page 36-1 of the Europa XS Tri-Gear Manual, Issue 1, dated 30 May 1998. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:28 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Rob, I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their Europa=B4s undersides any colour but white. I still well remember Manual=B4s words: all the Europas must be white. I still have to point out the energy of the sun is NOT reflecting out of the black asphalt IMHO. That is why it is hot when a sunny day. It absorbs allmost all the heat energy and nothing is reflecting out. White surfaces are cool because they are reflecting out much more. So it could be more dangerous to keep it on the snow covered surface while a sunny day (or on white sand or water w Europa floats!). In Sweden there has been 10 years a wonderful full colour mid red Lancair 320 and no composite problems at all. Register # is SE-XOP (!). And like we all know in South America (Columbia?) there is flying a total deep yellow Europa. I think - with other colour as white - it is better to be even more careful. Beauty is a good reason for some extra work and some sacrifice. That is the fact all the women know. That is all. "Keep your full matt black Europa in the hangar and fly only night time if you wanna be absolutely sure" Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Housman To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 2:32 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa rules Mike - In re: dark paint Don't even think about it. Where we live and fly, on warm days the heat reflected off the ramp will be sufficient to soften the epoxy-fiberglass enough to reduce the strength of the structure. Sure it will be OK at altitude but you still have to climb away from the surface. Folks flying closer to the Arctic Circle don't have to worry about getting the airframe too hot. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DuaneFamly@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:23 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa rules Raimo, Congratulations to you and your aircraft. I think we can all stand a little taller and more proud when one of "our" planes tops the list of all in an entire country. Do you have any pix of you panel? Is the underside of your aircraft really painted dark? Black, blue, brown? Any reasoning for this? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:04 AM PST US From: "gregoryf.flyboy" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 listing On July 23rd, Richard wrote: >I have taken the liberty of creating something much more >readable in .pdf format. It doesn't hurt to have more than one way to present the list. We can pick and choose which presentation to use. > I don't know if anyone else has been having trouble >reading the list of completed Mod 73 aircraft I do not have any problems reading the mod 73 listings, using MS Outlook. Maybe it is a setting in the editor? Check to see if your editor is using HTML format settings, which may have better table or column support. >I suggest that all other reports should come to me and I >will add them to the list and republish - say twice a >week. Isn't someone already doing this? Do they still want to continue? ... >I am fairly certain that after the "tag your details >onto the end of this" approach, several sets of info have >been lost. Since the returned Mod 73 listings (for those who have done the mod) are all the same except for the one line added, it can get a bit time consuming for those that are tracking this information to sort through. It might be easier if the listing is returned to the matronics server with only the header and the one line of new information. For those that are tracking, this will cut down on searching through the list each time, looking for the one (or three) new entries. Example: Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Trev Pond UK G-LINN Tri Gear Grass Completed None found Original none There can even be a statement to keep from archiving, so that there are not too many of these on the server. It would also be helpful to be sure to respond to RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 listing only. That way the person(s) tracking the info can do a simple search in his email editor and pull up all the results. This is only a suggestion, meant for smoother flow of information. Regards, Greg Fuchs A050 'Working in the wings ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:13 AM PST US From: "gregoryf.flyboy" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 listing I digress. Do Not Archive _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gregoryf.flyboy Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 11:04 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 listing On July 23rd, Richard wrote: >I have taken the liberty of creating something much more >readable in .pdf format. It doesn't hurt to have more than one way to present the list. We can pick and choose which presentation to use. > I don't know if anyone else has been having trouble >reading the list of completed Mod 73 aircraft I do not have any problems reading the mod 73 listings, using MS Outlook. Maybe it is a setting in the editor? Check to see if your editor is using HTML format settings, which may have better table or column support. >I suggest that all other reports should come to me and I >will add them to the list and republish - say twice a >week. Isn't someone already doing this? Do they still want to continue? ... >I am fairly certain that after the "tag your details >onto the end of this" approach, several sets of info have >been lost. Since the returned Mod 73 listings (for those who have done the mod) are all the same except for the one line added, it can get a bit time consuming for those that are tracking this information to sort through. It might be easier if the listing is returned to the matronics server with only the header and the one line of new information. For those that are tracking, this will cut down on searching through the list each time, looking for the one (or three) new entries. Example: Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Trev Pond UK G-LINN Tri Gear Grass Completed None found Original none There can even be a statement to keep from archiving, so that there are not too many of these on the server. It would also be helpful to be sure to respond to RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 listing only. That way the person(s) tracking the info can do a simple search in his email editor and pull up all the results. This is only a suggestion, meant for smoother flow of information. Regards, Greg Fuchs A050 'Working in the wings ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:29 AM PST US From: Gert Dalgaard Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours I only fly at night...... :-) Gert http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/oygds.jpg Den 23/07/2007 kl. 20.02 skrev Raimo Toivio: > Hi Rob > > As I wrote > > "I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their > Europa=B4s undersides any colour but white. I still well > > remember Manual=B4s words: all the Europas must be white." > > > and > > > "I think - with other colour as white - it is better to be even > more careful. " > > > and > > > "Keep your full matt black Europa in the hangar and fly only night > time if > > you wanna be absolutely sure" > > > Anyway - I called to my friend Jukka Paavolainen, who has build > > and still flies his Lancair 320 OH-XJP. He said his Lancair is > > just on ordinary glasfibre - epox system and definetely not baked > > in high temparatures. Only the cowlings - because of the engine and > > exhaust heat - has been made by more heat resistant phenolresins. > > > His Lancair kit is year model 1990 and so is my earlier example SE- > XOP, > > which is overall deepred and beautiful Swedish Lancair 320. > > > I believe newer models are as you described made by adanced > composite materials. > > > You wrote > > > " Park on a black surface and the solar energy absorbed by that > surface will be re-radiated to the underside of the aircraft, and > if that aircraft is any color but white it will absorb too much > energy. " > > > and I still think you are wrong. I am going to talk to one > thermodynamist, > > who works as a doctor in Tampere Univercity. Maybe he can make this > > thing clear. I promise to come back and tell what he know. Also if > I am wrong... > > > Fly it - do not melt it... > > Raimo > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rob Housman > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 6:02 PM > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours > > Sorry Raimo, but this is dangerous thinking for those of us flying > in warmer climes. > > > In my previous post I deliberately avoided getting into too much > technical detail, and I used the word =93reflected=94 where I should > have used the technically correct term =93emitted.=94 > > > First, you seem to misunderstand heat transfer. You are correct > that the sun=92s energy is not reflected from a black surface. > However, a =93black body=94 is not only a perfect absorber but also a > perfect emitter, which is to say it may not be reflecting solar > heating but it surely emits it. Park on a black surface and the > solar energy absorbed by that surface will be re-radiated to the > underside of the aircraft, and if that aircraft is any color but > white it will absorb too much energy. Any material absorbing > energy will increase in temperature. Sure, there will be some re- > radiation from the dark aircraft structure but that is irrelevant > because the epoxy-fiberglass will already have softened. > > > Second, the Lancair aircraft all use a different composite than > Europa. Here=92s how Lancair describes their composites on their web > sitehttp://www.lancair.com/Main/legacy.html --- > > > =93Like every Lancair, the Legacy=92s major airframe is constructed of > advanced composite materials. Cured at 270 degrees Fahrenheit under > vacuum pressure, these NASA tested, epoxy based composites are > among the lightest, strongest, stiffest materials known. > > > The high-temperature, pre-impregnated carbon fiber and/or > fiberglass systems combined with Nomex/honeycomb core materials are > considered the supreme composite airframe materials of choice > worldwide.=94 > > > Note that the Lancair=92s composites are cured at a much higher > temperature than the factory and we cure the Europa structural > components. The =93glass transition temperature=94 is approximately > the cure temperature so softening of the composite does not begin > until approximately T sub g is reached. For a detailed explanation > to T sub g see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > Glass_transition_temperature For our purposes we can consider the > glass transition temperature the softening temperature, above which > the structure loses a significant portion of its strength. > > > Anyone contemplating painting a Europa any color other than white > (including yellow) should review the chart in the Builders Manual, > Figure 1, Colour-Temperature Relationship, on page 36-1 of the > Europa XS Tri-Gear Manual, Issue 1, dated 30 May 1998. > > > Best regards, > > > Rob Housman > > Irvine, California > > Europa XS Tri-Gear > > S/N A070 > > Airframe complete > > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa- > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:28 AM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours > > > Rob, > > > I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their > > Europa=B4s undersides any colour but white. I still well > > remember Manual=B4s words: all the Europas must be white. > > > I still have to point out the energy of the sun is NOT > > reflecting out of the black asphalt IMHO. That is why > > it is hot when a sunny day. It absorbs allmost all the heat > > energy and nothing is reflecting out. White surfaces are > > cool because they are reflecting out much more. > > > So it could be more dangerous to keep it on the snow covered > > surface while a sunny day (or on white sand or water w Europa > floats!). > > > In Sweden there has been 10 years a wonderful full colour mid red > Lancair 320 > > and no composite problems at all. Register # is SE-XOP (!). And like > > we all know in South America (Columbia?) there is flying a total > deep yellow Europa. > > > I think - with other colour as white - it is better to be even more > careful. > > Beauty is a good reason for some extra work and some sacrifice. > > That is the fact all the women know. That is all. > > > "Keep your full matt black Europa in the hangar and fly only night > time if you wanna be absolutely sure" > > > Raimo > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rob Housman > > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 2:32 AM > > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa rules > > > Mike ' > > > In re: dark paint > > > Don=92t even think about it. Where we live and fly, on warm days the > heat reflected off the ramp will be sufficient to soften the epoxy- > fiberglass enough to reduce the strength of the structure. Sure it > will be OK at altitude but you still have to climb away from the > surface. Folks flying closer to the Arctic Circle don=92t have to > worry about getting the airframe too hot. > > > Best regards, > > > Rob Housman > > Irvine, California > > Europa XS Tri-Gear > > S/N A070 > > Airframe complete > > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa- > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DuaneFamly@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:23 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa rules > > > Raimo, > > > Congratulations to you and your aircraft. I think we can all stand > a little taller and more proud when one of "our" planes tops the > list of all in an entire country. > > > Do you have any pix of you panel? Is the underside of your aircraft > really painted dark? Black, blue, brown? Any reasoning for this? > > > Mike Duane A207A > Redding, California > XS Conventional Gear > Jabiru 3300 > Sensenich R64Z N > Ground Adjustable Prop > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > http://forums.matronics.com > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http:// > www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// > forums.matronics.com > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http:// > www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// > forums.matronics.com > ======================== > ======================== > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:17 PM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 listing I am happy to continue to add results to my spreadsheet. I will publish a full listing once or twice a week as required. Following on from Greg's suggestion, to keep it simple and save bandwidth / storage space on the server, just send the raw data to the forum or to me directly and I will append it to my table. Richard Iddon G-RIXS My direct email address is riddon@sent.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gregoryf.flyboy Sent: 23 July 2007 19:04 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 listing On July 23rd, Richard wrote: >I have taken the liberty of creating something much more >readable in .pdf format. It doesn't hurt to have more than one way to present the list. We can pick and choose which presentation to use. > I don't know if anyone else has been having trouble >reading the list of completed Mod 73 aircraft I do not have any problems reading the mod 73 listings, using MS Outlook. Maybe it is a setting in the editor? Check to see if your editor is using HTML format settings, which may have better table or column support. >I suggest that all other reports should come to me and I >will add them to the list and republish - say twice a >week. Isn't someone already doing this? Do they still want to continue? ... >I am fairly certain that after the "tag your details >onto the end of this" approach, several sets of info have >been lost. Since the returned Mod 73 listings (for those who have done the mod) are all the same except for the one line added, it can get a bit time consuming for those that are tracking this information to sort through. It might be easier if the listing is returned to the matronics server with only the header and the one line of new information. For those that are tracking, this will cut down on searching through the list each time, looking for the one (or three) new entries. Example: Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Trev Pond UK G-LINN Tri Gear Grass Completed None found Original none There can even be a statement to keep from archiving, so that there are not too many of these on the server. It would also be helpful to be sure to respond to RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 listing only. That way the person(s) tracking the info can do a simple search in his email editor and pull up all the results. This is only a suggestion, meant for smoother flow of information. Regards, Greg Fuchs A050 'Working in the wings 22/07/2007 19:02 22/07/2007 19:02 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:17 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Re: Europa-List: Europa rules Cheers Michael and Bob Both of you wanted to see more OH-XRT=B4s panel pics. Please click a link below http://www.ilmailu.org/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=18&page=6 and you will find 16 of them (pages 6 & 7). Michael: Yes - my Dynon is behing the gear lever. And I do have complete access to the buttons and the screen is clearly visible. In fact this hole is like designed for little Dynon - Ivan Shaw must be a really prognosticator when designing the Europa panel! Advantage: The screen is also in a good shadow and so more readable. Disadvantage: you have to make a hole to the firewall, because Dynon=B4s ass (D-connector) must protrude through it about 2" = 50 mm. Otherwise it is impossible to retract the gear. I learned it by very hard way! I covered the hole and the connector by stainless steel box. Wishes, Raimo =========== Raimo M W Toivio OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, The Experimental of The Year OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, totally restored 2006-2007 OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded) 37500 Lempaala Finland tel + 358 3 3753 777 fax + 358 3 3753 100 gsm + 358 40 590 1450 raimo.toivio@rwm.fi www.rwm.fi ----- Original Message ----- From: Michel AUVRAY To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 8:33 AM Subject: RE: Re: Europa-List: Europa rules hello Raimo, IThanks for yours pictures, I see the panel picture, you install the dynon efis behind the gear lever, do you see correctly the screen in flight? and do you have complete acces to the buttons also in flight? If you have others pictures panel please send to me. Thanks Michel AUVRAY Builder 145 > 320 hours flight -----Message d'origine----- De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]De la part de Raimo Toivio Envoy=E9 : vendredi 20 juillet 2007 01:28 =C0 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Re: Re: Europa-List: Europa rules Mike Thank you. I think Europa-owners are today the tallest pilots ever. And still growing... Attaced a panel pic - it was not completed half year ago. I should take a more vendible pic some day. The underside colour is really dark, RAL colour named unusual blackred (looks sometimes black, sometimes brown and sometimes purple). The wing undersides and tailplane undersides has been painted like triangle - so Lady Windmaker Tuuli-Ilmatar looks like a bird when flying over. Reason: The main reason to exist for OUR Europa XRT is to be beautiful. We thought double colour underlines Europa Mono=B4s beautiful shape. We do not like any strips or stars... And if you can have white planes there in California, we can definetely fly here by cream colour plane (we fly most of the time top up of course)! Sun is so rare visitor here, unfortunately. Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: DuaneFamly@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:22 AM Subject: [PHISHING]: Re: Europa-List: Europa rules ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- Panda Antivirus + Firewall 2007 on havainnut t=E4m=E4n s=E4hk=F6postiviestin olevan mahdollisesti vilpillinen. Vilpilliset s=E4hk=F6postiviestit voivat olla merkki petos-yrityksest=E4. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- Raimo, Congratulations to you and your aircraft. I think we can all stand a little taller and more proud when one of "our" planes tops the list of all in an entire country. Do you have any pix of you panel? Is the underside of your aircraft really painted dark? Black, blue, brown? Any reasoning for this? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- Panda Antivirus + Firewall 2007 on havainnut t=E4m=E4n s=E4hk=F6postiviestin olevan mahdollisesti vilpillinen. Vilpilliset s=E4hk=F6postiviestit voivat olla merkki petos-yrityksest=E4. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:34 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: evans, temps From: "josok" Hi Jeff, These are the temperatures i would like too. Was there a significant change after the first hours? At the moment i am seeing close to 130 C on a 13 C day on climb-out. There are several changes to the standard system, and maybe that was not a good idea. Oh Michel, i don't remember asking for alternatives to Evans. Kind Regards, Jos Okhuijsen PS first flight pictures of OH-XJO in the gallery, under the flying Europa's chapter Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:49 PM PST US From: "Steve Pitt" Subject: Re: Europa-List: evans, temps I echo Jeff's report. I have used Evans since the start but only during last years very hot summer on my ground runs was I getting close to the maximum water temps. Regards Steve Pitt G-SMDH 912S Trigear ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:31 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Gert, so beautiful is your plane! I think we once met in Barkaby. Anyway - your Europa has been one of my inspiring examples during the years. But it is obvious - you are living in a country of great design like Bang&Olufsen. But how dare you make a dark bottom, bad boy you are! Any difficulties /delaminations? Let me guess: not at all. All the others: By the way, what is the temp inside the cowlings when taxiing long in a hot day? There, near by the critical areas. I painted all the inside glass surfaces white and have a heat reflecting & noise insulating firewall coating. Moro, Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Gert Dalgaard To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 9:18 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours I only fly at night...... :-) Gert http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/oygds.jpg Den 23/07/2007 kl. 20.02 skrev Raimo Toivio: Hi Rob As I wrote "I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their Europa=B4s undersides any colour but white. I still well remember Manual=B4s words: all the Europas must be white." and "I think - with other colour as white - it is better to be even more careful. " and "Keep your full matt black Europa in the hangar and fly only night time if you wanna be absolutely sure" Anyway - I called to my friend Jukka Paavolainen, who has build and still flies his Lancair 320 OH-XJP. He said his Lancair is just on ordinary glasfibre - epox system and definetely not baked in high temparatures. Only the cowlings - because of the engine and exhaust heat - has been made by more heat resistant phenolresins. His Lancair kit is year model 1990 and so is my earlier example SE-XOP, which is overall deepred and beautiful Swedish Lancair 320. I believe newer models are as you described made by adanced composite materials. You wrote " Park on a black surface and the solar energy absorbed by that surface will be re-radiated to the underside of the aircraft, and if that aircraft is any color but white it will absorb too much energy. " and I still think you are wrong. I am going to talk to one thermodynamist, who works as a doctor in Tampere Univercity. Maybe he can make this thing clear. I promise to come back and tell what he know. Also if I am wrong... Fly it - do not melt it... Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Housman To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 6:02 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours Sorry Raimo, but this is dangerous thinking for those of us flying in warmer climes. In my previous post I deliberately avoided getting into too much technical detail, and I used the word =93reflected=94 where I should have used the technically correct term =93emitted.=94 First, you seem to misunderstand heat transfer. You are correct that the sun=92s energy is not reflected from a black surface. However, a =93black body=94 is not only a perfect absorber but also a perfect emitter, which is to say it may not be reflecting solar heating but it surely emits it. Park on a black surface and the solar energy absorbed by that surface will be re-radiated to the underside of the aircraft, and if that aircraft is any color but white it will absorb too much energy. Any material absorbing energy will increase in temperature. Sure, there will be some re-radiation from the dark aircraft structure but that is irrelevant because the epoxy-fiberglass will already have softened. Second, the Lancair aircraft all use a different composite than Europa. Here=92s how Lancair describes their composites on their web sitehttp://www.lancair.com/Main/legacy.html --- =93Like every Lancair, the Legacy=92s major airframe is constructed of advanced composite materials. Cured at 270 degrees Fahrenheit under vacuum pressure, these NASA tested, epoxy based composites are among the lightest, strongest, stiffest materials known. The high-temperature, pre-impregnated carbon fiber and/or fiberglass systems combined with Nomex/honeycomb core materials are considered the supreme composite airframe materials of choice worldwide.=94 Note that the Lancair=92s composites are cured at a much higher temperature than the factory and we cure the Europa structural components. The =93glass transition temperature=94 is approximately the cure temperature so softening of the composite does not begin until approximately T sub g is reached. For a detailed explanation to T sub g see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_transition_temperature For our purposes we can consider the glass transition temperature the softening temperature, above which the structure loses a significant portion of its strength. Anyone contemplating painting a Europa any color other than white (including yellow) should review the chart in the Builders Manual, Figure 1, Colour-Temperature Relationship, on page 36-1 of the Europa XS Tri-Gear Manual, Issue 1, dated 30 May 1998. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:28 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Rob, I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their Europa=B4s undersides any colour but white. I still well remember Manual=B4s words: all the Europas must be white. I still have to point out the energy of the sun is NOT reflecting out of the black asphalt IMHO. That is why it is hot when a sunny day. It absorbs allmost all the heat energy and nothing is reflecting out. White surfaces are cool because they are reflecting out much more. So it could be more dangerous to keep it on the snow covered surface while a sunny day (or on white sand or water w Europa floats!). In Sweden there has been 10 years a wonderful full colour mid red Lancair 320 and no composite problems at all. Register # is SE-XOP (!). And like we all know in South America (Columbia?) there is flying a total deep yellow Europa. I think - with other colour as white - it is better to be even more careful. Beauty is a good reason for some extra work and some sacrifice. That is the fact all the women know. That is all. "Keep your full matt black Europa in the hangar and fly only night time if you wanna be absolutely sure" Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Housman To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 2:32 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa rules Mike ' In re: dark paint Don=92t even think about it. Where we live and fly, on warm days the heat reflected off the ramp will be sufficient to soften the epoxy-fiberglass enough to reduce the strength of the structure. Sure it will be OK at altitude but you still have to climb away from the surface. Folks flying closer to the Arctic Circle don=92t have to worry about getting the airframe too hot. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DuaneFamly@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:23 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa rules Raimo, Congratulations to you and your aircraft. I think we can all stand a little taller and more proud when one of "our" planes tops the list of all in an entire country. Do you have any pix of you panel? Is the underside of your aircraft really painted dark? Black, blue, brown? Any reasoning for this? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com - The Europa-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:26 PM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Europa-List: Angle of Attack I am installing a Dynon ASI / AOA indicator. The pitot tube should be parallel to the direction of flight when in cruise. In order to install it, it is necessary to set it with reference to the chord of the wing, but I don't see anywhere what the angle of attack is. I also thought the spar might be 90 degrees from the chord but it does not appear that that is the case. How have others who are using the Dynon pitot tube set it? Jim Puglise, A-283
I am installing a Dynon ASI / AOA indicator.  The pitot tube should be parallel to the direction of flight when in cruise.  In order to install it, it is necessary to set it with reference to the chord of the wing, but I don't see anywhere what the angle of attack is.  I also thought the spar might be 90 degrees from the chord but it does not appear that that is the case. 
 
How have others who are using the Dynon pitot tube set it? 
 
Jim Puglise, A-283
________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:10 PM PST US From: "m.clews" Subject: Re: Europa-List: evans, temps Evans gives a higher but stable running temp. around 120degrees on our 914 Mike Clews G-OMIK ----- Original Message ----- From: "josok" Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 5:45 PM Subject: Europa-List: evans, temps > > Hi All, > > Is there still somebody using Evans,and if so, what temps do you see? > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > [/u] > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Angle of Attack From: "josok" Hi Jim, Can't see that this has to be absolutely without tolerance exactly parallel. The dynon aoa indicator will be learning the exact difference between the pitot and stall tube later during a series of test stalls. In will try to use the standard europa pitot and the stall warner tube as inputs. Don't know if that works, but will find it out in a week or so. I have the dynon asi/stall pitot, but would prefer not to pull more tubes through the plane. Kind Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:24 PM PST US From: "Ron Jones" Subject: Europa-List: Mod 73 results ----- Original Message ----- From: Trevpond@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results OK. I have transferred the results so far to a spreadsheet which I have copied and pasted below. I am not an expert so hope it works. Please fill in the blanks. And send it back to the forum. If anyone has been missed off I apologise but it is getting a little complicated. It would be useful to know the total A/C hours and possibly the typical landig surface (grass/paved) to establish a correlation with failures? Nigel Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono 320 Both Completed None found Original None Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono Completed None found 2in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BXDP Mono Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major Trev Pond UK G-LINN Tri Gear Grass Completed None found Original none ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:22 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Angle of Attack The angle of incidence (NOT to be confused with the AOA) is set to 2.5 degrees as measured at the wing root per the Builders Manual chapter on "Wing to Fuselage Assembly". That is, the chord is 2.5 degrees up at the leading edge, relative to the "waterline" of the fuselage (the waterline reference in this case being the pilot's side door sill). Since the wing is designed to stall first at the root, the angle of incidence decreases toward the wing tip. I don't think that the manual tells us how much the angle of incidence varies but it should not be necessary to know this for setting the pitot tube angle. Since a fixed pitot tube can not be set parallel to the relative wind except at specific combinations of gross weight and airspeed, I suspect that what Dynon really wants is for the pitot tube be parallel to the longitudinal axis of the airframe, and close to the angle of incidence of the wing, with compensation for any deviation from its preferred angle of incidence being applied by calibration of the instrument. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimpuglise@comcast.net Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 12:52 PM Subject: Europa-List: Angle of Attack I am installing a Dynon ASI / AOA indicator. The pitot tube should be parallel to the direction of flight when in cruise. In order to install it, it is necessary to set it with reference to the chord of the wing, but I don't see anywhere what the angle of attack is. I also thought the spar might be 90 degrees from the chord but it does not appear that that is the case. How have others who are using the Dynon pitot tube set it? Jim Puglise, A-283 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:51 PM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: Angle of Attack Jos- If you want to use the AOA indicator, they say that you must use the Dynon pitot. It has a second hole in it at about a 60 degree angle from the pitot and the Dynon computer looks at the difference between the two inputs. I have installed both that and the Europa pitot and will use the Europa pitot to drive a steam gauge backup ASI and the Dynon pitot to drive the Dynon. I will share the static source from the Europa tube. -------------- Original message -------------- From: "josok" > > Hi Jim, > > Can't see that this has to be absolutely without tolerance exactly parallel. The > dynon aoa indicator will be learning the exact difference between the pitot and > stall tube later during a series of test stalls. In will try to use the standard > europa pitot and the stall warner tube as inputs. Don't know if that works, but > will find it out in a week or so. I have the dynon asi/stall pitot, but would > prefer not to pull more tubes through the plane. > > Kind Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > > > >
Jos-
 
If you want to use the AOA indicator, they say that you must use the Dynon pitot.  It has a second hole in it at about a 60 degree angle from the pitot and the Dynon computer looks at the difference between the two inputs.  I have installed both that and the Europa pitot and will use the Europa pitot to drive a steam gauge backup ASI and the Dynon pitot to drive the Dynon.  I will share the static source from the Europa tube.   
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>

> --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok"
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Can't see that this has to be absolutely without tolerance exactly parallel. The
> dynon aoa indicator will be learning the exact difference between the pitot and
> stall tube later during a series of test stalls. In will try to use the standard
> europa pitot and the stall warner tube as inputs. Don't know if that works, but
> will find it out in a week or so. I have the dynon asi/stall pitot, but would
> prefer not to pull more tubes through the plane.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
>
& gt; ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:33 PM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight Congratulations Jos. Suomi is becoming a great "Europa" nation. We also may thank you for your valuable contribution during your building. Happy landings! Karel Vranken, # 447 F-PKRL now 60 hours of joy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "josok" Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 5:07 PM Subject: Europa-List: First flight > > Today, at the hands of Ivan Shaw the Northernmost built and based Europa > XS kit 600 OH-XJO took the air. > > It flies great, ball in the middle, no hands on the controls, no tabs. Far > better then i expected :-) and i am still baffled. Temperatures are a bit > high on the Dynon, but it's probably one of the sensors, since the engine > does not feel hot. > > For the records: It's a XS monowheel, with a Rotax 914ULS, Woodcomp SR > 3000, Smart Avionics CSG-1/G cs controller, Dynon 180, 2 generators, 2 > batteries, 409 kg or 901 pounds on the scale. Built started end October > 2003, and i counted about 2300 hours on the job, including some 40 hours > for the upholsterer fitting the Europa interior kit, 250 hours for the > filler and sander, and 90 hours for the painters. > > My thanks go out to all who have helped with good advice, moral support, > hands on work, or just good criticism. The list of names is too long to > mention, and i would risk forgetting somebody, but i can't go around > without mentioning Raimo Toivio who advised to buy a plane if flying was > the objective, William Mills and Dave Buzz, accompanied by Paul Sweeting > and Graham Singleton, who flew all the way up here to boost the build, > Andy and Nev, John and Roger wit h good advice and the right articles at > the right time. > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:08 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Angle of Attack Jim does the Dynon use the 60deg. hole as static? or does it have two pitots and a static.? Graham jimpuglise@comcast.net wrote: > Jos- > > If you want to use the AOA indicator, they say that you must use the > Dynon pitot. It has a second hole in it at about a 60 degree angle from > the pitot and the Dynon computer looks at the difference between the two > inputs. I have installed both that and the Europa pitot and will use > the Europa pitot to drive a steam gauge backup ASI and the Dynon pitot > to drive the Dynon. I will share the static source from the Europa tube. > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "josok" > > > > > Hi Jim, > > > > Can't see that this has to be absolutely without tolerance > exactly parallel. The > > dynon aoa indicator will be learning the exact difference between > the pitot and > > stall tube later during a series of test stalls. In will try to > use the standard > > europa pitot and the stall warner tube as inputs. Don't know if > that works, but > > will find it out in a week or so. I have the dynon asi/stall > pitot, but would > > prefer not to pull more tubes through the plane. > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > > > > > & gt; ** > > ** > > > ** -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:26 PM PST US From: Rman Subject: Re: Europa-List: evans, temps Jos, The only change I made to the system was to drop the water cooler about 1" and seal it to the bottom of the cowl with a rubber seal. I also sealed the ends. All air is forced through the coolers, nothing goes around. That helped temps, noticeably. Temps were somewhat high for almost 100 hours. After that, they dropped markedly. Guess it takes that long to break in the 912S... Jeff - Baby Blue josok wrote: > > Hi Jeff, > > These are the temperatures i would like too. Was there a significant change after the first hours? At the moment i am seeing close to 130 C on a 13 C day on climb-out. There are several changes to the standard system, and maybe that was not a good idea. > > Oh Michel, i don't remember asking for alternatives to Evans. > > Kind Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > PS first flight pictures of OH-XJO in the gallery, under the flying Europa's chapter > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:37 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: x tended range From: "Finklea" Does anyone use extended range fuel tanks and if so, what type and where? 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