---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 07/25/07: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:53 AM - Re: mod 73 results (Carl Pattinson) 2. 12:14 PM - 10672 (Niels Kock) 3. 12:46 PM - Re: 10672 (Flying Farmer) 4. 12:55 PM - Re: x tended range (thomas@scherer.com) 5. 01:22 PM - Re: mod 73 results (karelvranken) 6. 03:45 PM - Re: 10672 (Graham Singleton) 7. 04:04 PM - Re: 10672 (R.C.Harrison) 8. 07:01 PM - Re: mod 73 results (Keith Hickling) 9. 08:32 PM - Re: mod 73 results (Fred Klein) 10. 08:48 PM - Re: 10672 (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 11. 08:58 PM - Re: Europa colours (thomas@scherer.com) 12. 11:09 PM - Re: Europa colours (Raimo Toivio) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:53:05 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: mod 73 results >This list must be making everyone feel lots better. >I am not finished the build by a long shot but it is great to see this list of no disbonding of the TP6! Sorry, but I must disagree ! Whilst the list is an interesting idea it proves nothing as regards disbonding or otherwise. I would be surprised even after 6 months if the list reveals any evidence of disbonding tailplanes - but I may yet be proved wrong. Put yourself in the position of someone who had discovered a poorly manufactured tailplane -would you want the rest of the world to know (especially if you were the builder). What would be the insurance implications of admitting you might have a poorly constructed aircraft ? How might this affect a future claim? Many will take the view that its better to find out why it happened, fix it and say nothing. Bearing in mind the implications of another failure the "survey" should have been done properly by the regulatory bodies whose mandate is to keep us flying safely. But maybe even they realise that even a "thorough" survey will not guarantee to reveal all cases of poor construction. On the positive side, this episode has brought to everyones attention the need to have secure tailplanes and highlighted the importance of building to a high standard. If there were any loose tailplanes before it is pretty certain that will no longer be the case. You know who I am - hard hat donned ! ----- Original Message ----- From: Laptop JR To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: mod 73 results Richard Iddon and all This list must be making everyone feel lots better. I am not finished the build by a long shot but it is great to see this list of no disbonding of the TP6! JR (Bob) Gowing in Oz UK Kit 327 with XS mods - starting filling but no instruments, engine etc do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Iddon To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 7:12 AM Subject: Europa-List: mod 73 results Tuesday 24th. 22:00 This is the full table of results I have compiled so far. If you have sent anything and it has been missed off, please email me directly and I will add it to the list. Keep the info coming, it is certainly giving me more confidence in my ship. Richard Iddon G-RIXS Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365.00 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear 46 Grass Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono 320 Both Completed None found Original None Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear 20.00 mixed Completed None found 1.9in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono 60 Mostly Hard Completed None found 2in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BWDP Mono N/A N/A Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono 1250 Mostly Grass Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major Mike Clews UK G-OMIK Mono 500 Grass Completed None found Original nothing major Arthur Orchard uk G-JOST Tri Gear 17.5 hrs Tar/Mac completed none found original nothing found Colin Smallwood UK G-DEBR Tri Gear Tarmac W.I.P None found 2in TP5 Port,Moved .25" Outboard Alasdair Milne UK G-CBYN Tri Gear Completed None original none Trev Pond UK G-LINN Tri Gear Grass Completed None found Original none Robert Marston UK G-CDBX Tri Gear 230.00 Grass Completed None Original Bob Fairall UK G-BXLK Mono 385 Grass Completed 2=94 None Geoff Leedham UK G-EOFS tri Gear 320 Grass Completed None found 1.9" None found Stephen Vestuti UK G-CEBV 22.00 Completed Duncan McFadyean UK G-BXII Tail Dragger 360.00 Mostly grass Completed none found original none Karel Vranken B F-PKRL Mono 60 Both Done 2002 None found Original I did exactly what mod 73 prescribes before doing the lay ups. 23/07/2007 19:45 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:47 PM PST US From: "Niels Kock" Subject: Europa-List: 10672 Slightly embarrassed to ask: What,exactly is mod 10672=3F Never heard about it (or have plum forgotten, more likely). Niels OY-ODA -- Jeg beskyttes af den gratis SPAMfighter til privatbrugere. Den har indtil videre sparet mig for at f=E5 1612 spam-mails. Betalende brugere f=E5r ikke denne besked i deres e-mails. Hent gratis SPAMfighter her: http://www.spamfighter.com/lda ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: 10672 From: "Flying Farmer" Niels, This is the Club mod for the TP5 And TP6 sleeve, check out link below. http://www.europaclub.org.uk/mods/improved_tp5_and_tp6_sleeve_retention.shtml Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:39 PM PST US From: "thomas@scherer.com" Subject: RE: Europa-List: x tended range I am using 4 of the factory tanks (two in baggage area and two on front seat.) If they lose prime it is due to air finding its way into the system. I found the supplied 'clicking tube-fasteners' to not be airtight enough. I seccond the use as canisters for auto fuel. Happy landings ! ----Original Message---- From: terrys@cisco.com Subj: RE: Europa-List: x tended range We use the factory long ranger tank in our mono-wheel XS. I works fairly well, although we have problems with it losing its 'prime', requiring us to periodically reach back and pump the priming bulb a few times. The extra ten gallons of gas is not only useful for extending our range, but allows us to carry around an extra supply of auto gas instead of having to buy 100LL at airports we visit. We prefer not to burn 100LL if we can help it, as it fouls the plugs, etc. Regards, Terry Seaver A135 / N135TD -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Finklea Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 8:43 PM Subject: Europa-List: x tended range Does anyone use extended range fuel tanks and if so, what type and where? Thanks ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:22:33 PM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: mod 73 results Carl, Hard doesn't mean right. OK not every one has to recognise that his building was poor practise. We don't wait for a complete listing. At least it may give confidence to those who were reaching a good standard. Why do you think self build is half the price you put in the materials on the second hand market? My two cents... Karel Vranken, #447 F-PKRL ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Pattinson To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 9:48 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: mod 73 results >This list must be making everyone feel lots better. >I am not finished the build by a long shot but it is great to see this list of no disbonding of the TP6! Sorry, but I must disagree ! Whilst the list is an interesting idea it proves nothing as regards disbonding or otherwise. I would be surprised even after 6 months if the list reveals any evidence of disbonding tailplanes - but I may yet be proved wrong. Put yourself in the position of someone who had discovered a poorly manufactured tailplane -would you want the rest of the world to know (especially if you were the builder). What would be the insurance implications of admitting you might have a poorly constructed aircraft ? How might this affect a future claim? Many will take the view that its better to find out why it happened, fix it and say nothing. Bearing in mind the implications of another failure the "survey" should have been done properly by the regulatory bodies whose mandate is to keep us flying safely. But maybe even they realise that even a "thorough" survey will not guarantee to reveal all cases of poor construction. On the positive side, this episode has brought to everyones attention the need to have secure tailplanes and highlighted the importance of building to a high standard. If there were any loose tailplanes before it is pretty certain that will no longer be the case. You know who I am - hard hat donned ! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:07 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: 10672 Niels This mod is one that most of us wish we had done, unfortunately it isn't easily retro fitted. Graham Niels Kock wrote: > Slightly embarrassed to ask: > What,exactly is mod 10672? Never heard about it > (or have plum forgotten, more likely). > Niels > OY-ODA > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jeg beskyttes af den gratis SPAMfighter til privatbrugere. > Den har indtil videre sparet mig for at f 1612 spam-mails > Betalende brugere fr ikke denne besked i deres e-mails. > Hent en gratis SPAMfighter her . > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:14 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 10672 Hi! Neils I patched the mod in direct . It can only be done during build and links the two tailplane bushes. Regards Bob harrison. Improved TP5 and TP6 Sleeve Retention Ownership Europa Club Rickard Rating Simple Mod PFA Mod # 10672 Purpose Reduce the risk of the torque-tube sleeves becoming disbonded from the tailplane, and the inside of the tailplane being damaged during fitting or storage Description Instructions for creating a bid tube surrounding the TP5 and TP6 torque-tube sleeves and bonding the sleeve into the TP2 foam and to the inboard and outboard tailplane ribs Contact Europa Club Membership Secretary Details (members only) PDF Photos: Enlarging hole , newspaper applied , laying up , cutting film , tube completed , rib completed , installed Improved TP5 and TP6 sleeve Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Niels Kock Sent: 25 July 2007 20:13 Subject: Europa-List: 10672 Slightly embarrassed to ask: What,exactly is mod 10672? Never heard about it (or have plum forgotten, more likely). Niels OY-ODA ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:47 PM PST US From: Keith Hickling Subject: Re: Europa-List: mod 73 results Carl, I don't think it is correct to imply that any disbonding is necessarily a result of poor construction. It could simply be a result of the inherent limitations of bonding between stainless steel and epoxy over time. The original design of the pip pin recess was intended to provide some security in the event of any disbonding, and the mod 73 provides additional bonding but also additional security in the event of disbonding. Comments such as yours may indeed inhibit people from providing information which is important for us all. So guys, please do provide accurate information, then any appropriate mods can be designed to keep us all safe and the insurance companies happy. Regards, Keith Hickling, New Zealand, Kit 613 Working on surface finishing and wiring, just doing mod 73, no disbonding but no flying either! ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Pattinson To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 7:48 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: mod 73 results >This list must be making everyone feel lots better. >I am not finished the build by a long shot but it is great to see this list of no disbonding of the TP6! Sorry, but I must disagree ! Whilst the list is an interesting idea it proves nothing as regards disbonding or otherwise. I would be surprised even after 6 months if the list reveals any evidence of disbonding tailplanes - but I may yet be proved wrong. Put yourself in the position of someone who had discovered a poorly manufactured tailplane -would you want the rest of the world to know (especially if you were the builder). What would be the insurance implications of admitting you might have a poorly constructed aircraft ? How might this affect a future claim? Many will take the view that its better to find out why it happened, fix it and say nothing. Bearing in mind the implications of another failure the "survey" should have been done properly by the regulatory bodies whose mandate is to keep us flying safely. But maybe even they realise that even a "thorough" survey will not guarantee to reveal all cases of poor construction. On the positive side, this episode has brought to everyones attention the need to have secure tailplanes and highlighted the importance of building to a high standard. If there were any loose tailplanes before it is pretty certain that will no longer be the case. You know who I am - hard hat donned ! ----- Original Message ----- From: Laptop JR To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: mod 73 results Richard Iddon and all This list must be making everyone feel lots better. I am not finished the build by a long shot but it is great to see this list of no disbonding of the TP6! JR (Bob) Gowing in Oz UK Kit 327 with XS mods - starting filling but no instruments, engine etc do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Iddon To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 7:12 AM Subject: Europa-List: mod 73 results Tuesday 24th. 22:00 This is the full table of results I have compiled so far. If you have sent anything and it has been missed off, please email me directly and I will add it to the list. Keep the info coming, it is certainly giving me more confidence in my ship. Richard Iddon G-RIXS Name Country Reg Type Hours Landing sfc. Mod 73 progress Disbonding of TP6 Pip Pins Problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear 365.00 Tarmac Completed None found 2in. nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear 46 Grass Completed None found 2in. nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono 320 Both Completed None found Original None Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not done None found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. Pete Jeffers UK G-BVIZ Tri Gear Completed None found 2in. well within limits Brian Davies UK G-DDBD Tri Gear 20.00 mixed Completed None found 1.9in. none Graham Drake UK G-CCOV Mono 60 Mostly Hard Completed None found 2in. Sarah Attubato UK G-BWDP Mono N/A N/A Completed None found 2in. These are new replacement tailplanes that had already been built David Watts UK G-BXDY Mono 1250 Mostly Grass Completed None found 2in. Nigel Charles UK G-MIME Mono Completed None found 2in. nothing major Mike Clews UK G-OMIK Mono 500 Grass Completed None found Original nothing major Arthur Orchard uk G-JOST Tri Gear 17.5 hrs Tar/Mac completed none found original nothing found Colin Smallwood UK G-DEBR Tri Gear Tarmac W.I.P None found 2in TP5 Port,Moved .25" Outboard Alasdair Milne UK G-CBYN Tri Gear Completed None original none Trev Pond UK G-LINN Tri Gear Grass Completed None found Original none Robert Marston UK G-CDBX Tri Gear 230.00 Grass Completed None Original Bob Fairall UK G-BXLK Mono 385 Grass Completed 2=94 None Geoff Leedham UK G-EOFS tri Gear 320 Grass Completed None found 1.9" None found Stephen Vestuti UK G-CEBV 22.00 Completed Duncan McFadyean UK G-BXII Tail Dragger 360.00 Mostly grass Completed none found original none Karel Vranken B F-PKRL Mono 60 Both Done 2002 None found Original I did exactly what mod 73 prescribes before doing the lay ups. 23/07/2007 19:45 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: mod 73 results From: Fred Klein I'll second that...and Richard, "no good deed goes unpunished"... Fred a buildin A194 do not archive On Tuesday, July 24, 2007, at 03:13 PM, Laptop JR wrote: > Richard Iddon and all > This list must be making everyone feel lots better. > I am not finished the build by a long shot but it is great to see this > list of no disbonding of the TP6! > - > JR (Bob) Gowing in Oz UK Kit 327 with XS mods - starting filling but > no instruments, engine etc > - > do not archive -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:15 PM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: 10672 To All that might know, This was done on builds with the foam cores that you covered with BID. What about the tailplanes that came precovered, as in the quick build kits? Since they came after the foam core, was this mod done to them? Or am I mistaken...again? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:45 PM PST US From: "thomas@scherer.com" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours my Europa is half blue and shoes no signs of melting after ten years of ser vice. She has been parked and flown in hot cuntries. ----Original Message---- From: karelvranken@hotmail.com Subj: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Message v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } o\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } w\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } shape { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } @font-face { font-family: Calibri; } @font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @font-face { font-family: Consolas; } @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","se rif" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","se rif" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","se rif" } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } PRE { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Courier New"; mso-st yle-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted Char" } P.MsoAcetate { FONT-SIZE: 8pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "Balloon Text Char" } LI.MsoAcetate { FONT-SIZE: 8pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "Balloon Text Char" } DIV.MsoAcetate { FONT-SIZE: 8pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "Balloon Text Char" } SPAN.HTMLPreformattedChar { FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Pre formatted"; mso-style-name: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.BalloonTextChar { FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-li nk: "Balloon Text"; mso-style-name: "Balloon Text Char" } SPAN.EmailStyle21 { FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: "A rial","sans-serif"; mso-style-type: personal } SPAN.EmailStyle22 { FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: "A rial","sans-serif"; mso-style-type: personal-reply } MsoChpDefault { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } Do you know the gliders color? They know why! Karel Vranken # 447 F-PKRL ----- Original Message ----- From: James Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 5:55 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours Anyone remember the factory demonstrator N914XS with the blue belly? After two or so years in the US sun that plane needed repairs to the front fusel age as the engine weight was sagging the footwell area of the plane while i t was hot. Needless to say after it was reapaired it was repainted white. As Rob H said even yellow can get a bit warmer that white, and I've spraye d one yellow myself. Paint em' white, or fly em' at night! Jim T. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-serv er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 11:02 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours Sorry Raimo, but this is dangerous thinking for those of us flying in warme r climes. In my previous post I deliberately avoided getting into too much technical detail, and I used the word =C2=93reflected=C2=94 where I should have used the technically correct term =C2=93emitted.=C2=94 First, you seem to misunderstand heat transfer. You are correct that the s un=C2=92s energy is not reflected from a black surface. However, a =C2=93b lack body=C2=94 is not only a perfect absorber but also a perfect emitter, which is to say it may not be reflecting solar heating but it surely emits it. Park on a black surface and the solar energy absorbed by that surface will be re-radiated to the underside of the aircraft, and if that aircraft is any color but white it will absorb too much energy. Any material absorb ing energy will increase in temperature. Sure, there will be some re-radia tion from the dark aircraft structure but that is irrelevant because the ep oxy-fiberglass will already have softened. Second, the Lancair aircraft all use a different composite than Europa. He re=C2=92s how Lancair describes their composites on their web site http://w ww.lancair.com/Main/legacy.html --- =C2=93Like every Lancair, the Legacy=C2=92s major airframe is constructed o f advanced composite materials. Cured at 270 degrees Fahrenheit under vacuu m pressure, these NASA tested, epoxy based composites are among the lightes t, strongest, stiffest materials known. The high-temperature, pre-impregnated carbon fiber and/or fiberglass system s combined with Nomex/honeycomb core materials are considered the supreme c omposite airframe materials of choice worldwide.=C2=94 Note that the Lancair=C2=92s composites are cured at a much higher temperat ure than the factory and we cure the Europa structural components. The =C2 =93glass transition temperature=C2=94 is approximately the cure temperature so softening of the composite does not begin until approximately T sub g i s reached. For a detailed explanation to T sub g see http://en.wikipedia.o rg/wiki/Glass_transition_temperature For our purposes we can consider the glass transition temperature the softening temperature, above which the str ucture loses a significant portion of its strength. Anyone contemplating painting a Europa any color other than white (includin g yellow) should review the chart in the Builders Manual, Figure 1, Colour- Temperature Relationship, on page 36-1 of the Europa XS Tri-Gear Manual, Is sue 1, dated 30 May 1998. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-serv er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:28 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Rob, I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their Europa=C2=B4s undersides any colour but white. I still well remember Manual=C2=B4s words: all the Europas must be white. I still have to point out the energy of the sun is NOT reflecting out of the black asphalt IMHO. That is why it is hot when a sunny day. It absorbs allmost all the heat energy and nothing is reflecting out. White surfaces are cool because they are reflecting out much more. So it could be more dangerous to keep it on the snow covered surface while a sunny day (or on white sand or water w Europa floats!). In Sweden there has been 10 years a wonderful full colour mid red Lancair 3 20 and no composite problems at all. Register # is SE-XOP (!). And like we all know in South America (Columbia?) there is flying a total deep yello w Europa. I think - with other colour as white - it is better to be even more careful . Beauty is a good reason for some extra work and some sacrifice. That is the fact all the women know. That is all. "Keep your full matt black Europa in the hangar and fly only night time if you wanna be absolutely sure" Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Housman Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 2:32 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa rules Mike =C2' In re: dark paint Don=C2=92t even think about it. Where we live and fly, on warm days the he at reflected off the ramp will be sufficient to soften the epoxy-fiberglass enough to reduce the strength of the structure. Sure it will be OK at alt itude but you still have to climb away from the surface. Folks flying clos er to the Arctic Circle don=C2=92t have to worry about getting the airframe too hot. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-serv er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DuaneFamly@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa rules Raimo, Congratulations to you and your aircraft. I think we can all stand a little taller and more proud when one of "our" planes tops the list of all in an entire country. Do you have any pix of you panel? Is the underside of your aircraft really painted dark? Black, blue, brown? Any reasoning for this? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop r?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.co m">http://forums.matronicscom href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:05 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Wau, an another bad boy again! In fact I found few days ago nice pics of N81EU and it was parked in Utah Salt Lake City may I guess. I think it is one of the hottiest place in the world. And fastest! I noticed your Europa=C2=B4s sides also have been painted blue, not only down side. Maybe you fly so much that it has no time enough to melt... Karel: people do things many times just because it is just a "habit". Like painting gliders only white. Some times an individual decides to do something other way. It can be a disaster or success. You know. They call it experimental. Thanks, Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: thomas@scherer.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 6:57 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours my Europa is half blue and shoes no signs of melting after ten years of service. She has been parked and flown in hot cuntries. ----Original Message---- From: karelvranken@hotmail.com Date: Jul 24, 2007 2:38 To: Subj: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Do you know the gliders color? They know why! Karel Vranken # 447 F-PKRL ----- Original Message ----- From: James To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 5:55 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours Anyone remember the factory demonstrator N914XS with the blue belly? After two or so years in the US sun that plane needed repairs to the front fuselage as the engine weight was sagging the footwell area of the plane while it was hot. Needless to say after it was reapaired it was repainted white. As Rob H said even yellow can get a bit warmer that white, and I've sprayed one yellow myself. Paint em' white, or fly em' at night! Jim T. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 11:02 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours Sorry Raimo, but this is dangerous thinking for those of us flying in warmer climes. In my previous post I deliberately avoided getting into too much technical detail, and I used the word =C2=93reflected=C2=94 where I should have used the technically correct term =C2=93emitted.=C2=94 First, you seem to misunderstand heat transfer. You are correct that the sun=C2=92s energy is not reflected from a black surface. However, a =C2=93black body=C2=94 is not only a perfect absorber but also a perfect emitter, which is to say it may not be reflecting solar heating but it surely emits it. Park on a black surface and the solar energy absorbed by that surface will be re-radiated to the underside of the aircraft, and if that aircraft is any color but white it will absorb too much energy. Any material absorbing energy will increase in temperature. Sure, there will be some re-radiation from the dark aircraft structure but that is irrelevant because the epoxy-fiberglass will already have softened. Second, the Lancair aircraft all use a different composite than Europa. Here=C2=92s how Lancair describes their composites on their web site http://www.lancair.com/Main/legacy.html --- =C2=93Like every Lancair, the Legacy=C2=92s major airframe is constructed of advanced composite materials. Cured at 270 degrees Fahrenheit under vacuum pressure, these NASA tested, epoxy based composites are among the lightest, strongest, stiffest materials known. The high-temperature, pre-impregnated carbon fiber and/or fiberglass systems combined with Nomex/honeycomb core materials are considered the supreme composite airframe materials of choice worldwide.=C2=94 Note that the Lancair=C2=92s composites are cured at a much higher temperature than the factory and we cure the Europa structural components. The =C2=93glass transition temperature=C2=94 is approximately the cure temperature so softening of the composite does not begin until approximately T sub g is reached. For a detailed explanation to T sub g see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_transition_temperature For our purposes we can consider the glass transition temperature the softening temperature, above which the structure loses a significant portion of its strength. Anyone contemplating painting a Europa any color other than white (including yellow) should review the chart in the Builders Manual, Figure 1, Colour-Temperature Relationship, on page 36-1 of the Europa XS Tri-Gear Manual, Issue 1, dated 30 May 1998. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:28 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Rob, I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their Europa=C2=B4s undersides any colour but white. I still well remember Manual=C2=B4s words: all the Europas must be white. I still have to point out the energy of the sun is NOT reflecting out of the black asphalt IMHO. That is why it is hot when a sunny day. It absorbs allmost all the heat energy and nothing is reflecting out. White surfaces are cool because they are reflecting out much more. So it could be more dangerous to keep it on the snow covered surface while a sunny day (or on white sand or water w Europa floats!). In Sweden there has been 10 years a wonderful full colour mid red Lancair 320 and no composite problems at all. Register # is SE-XOP (!). And like we all know in South America (Columbia?) there is flying a total deep yellow Europa. I think - with other colour as white - it is better to be even more careful. Beauty is a good reason for some extra work and some sacrifice That is the fact all the women know. That is all. "Keep your full matt black Europa in the hangar and fly only night time if you wanna be absolutely sure" Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Housman To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 2:32 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa rules Mike =C2' In re: dark paint Don=C2=92t even think about it. Where we live and fly, on warm days the heat reflected off the ramp will be sufficient to soften the epoxy-fiberglass enough to reduce the strength of the structure. Sure it will be OK at altitude but you still have to climb away from the surface. Folks flying closer to the Arctic Circle don=C2=92t have to worry about getting the airframe too hot. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DuaneFamly@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:23 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa rules Raimo, Congratulations to you and your aircraft. I think we can all stand a little taller and more proud when one of "our" planes tops the list of all in an entire country. Do you have any pix of you panel? Is the underside of your aircraft really painted dark? Black, blue, brown? Any reasoning for this? 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