---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/29/07: 45 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:48 AM - Europa accident G-HOFC - POINTLESS comment (Carl Pattinson) 2. 02:39 AM - Re: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (Gert Dalgaard) 3. 03:04 AM - Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (josok) 4. 03:19 AM - Re: Europa Mod 74 (Trevpond@aol.com) 5. 04:07 AM - Re: *** SPAM *** noise-cancelling mic [was: anr headsets] (Carl Pattinson) 6. 04:21 AM - Fw: *** SPAM *** Mod 74 (Carl Pattinson) 7. 05:38 AM - Re: Europa Mod 74 (neveyre@aol.com) 8. 06:57 AM - Re: Fw: *** SPAM *** Mod 74 (Europa List) 9. 07:15 AM - Re: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (glenn crowder) 10. 07:23 AM - Re: Fw: Mod 74 (Carl Pattinson) 11. 07:47 AM - Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (Carl Pattinson) 12. 08:17 AM - Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (josok) 13. 08:21 AM - Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (Jeremy Davey) 14. 08:50 AM - Re: Mod 73 results (Niels Kock) 15. 08:57 AM - Re: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (Niels Kock) 16. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (Gert Dalgaard) 17. 09:46 AM - Re: Europa colours. Heat damage (David Joyce) 18. 11:14 AM - Re: Some good news for a change. (Alan Burrows) 19. 11:54 AM - Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (Finklea) 20. 11:54 AM - Re: Re: Some good news for a change. (Jeremy Davey) 21. 12:13 PM - Re: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (Paul McAllister) 22. 12:37 PM - Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (Finklea) 23. 12:37 PM - Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (josok) 24. 12:46 PM - Re: Re: Some good news for a change. (Richard Iddon) 25. 01:19 PM - Re: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (Jeremy Davey) 26. 02:11 PM - Return Fuel Flow Compensation query (steve v) 27. 02:11 PM - Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (josok) 28. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (Jeremy Davey) 29. 02:16 PM - Re: Return Fuel Flow Compensation query (josok) 30. 02:25 PM - Re: Dynon (Tony Krzyzewski) 31. 02:29 PM - Re: Europa colours. Heat damage (Fred Klein) 32. 02:36 PM - Re: Return Fuel Flow Compensation query (Tony Krzyzewski) 33. 02:37 PM - Re: Return Fuel Flow Compensation query (Paul McAllister) 34. 02:46 PM - Re: Europa colours. Heat damage (Tony Krzyzewski) 35. 03:04 PM - Re: Return Fuel Flow Compensation query (Jerry Rehn) 36. 03:12 PM - Re: Europa Mod 74 (Alan Burrows) 37. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: Some good news for a change. (Rman) 38. 03:15 PM - Re: Re: Some good news for a change. (Alan Burrows) 39. 03:24 PM - Re: Europa colours. Heat damage (Rman) 40. 03:28 PM - Re: Return Fuel Flow Compensation query (steve v) 41. 03:29 PM - Re: Return Fuel Flow Compensation query (steve v) 42. 03:41 PM - Re: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (Rman) 43. 05:34 PM - Re: Re: Some good news for a change. (EuropaXSA276@aol.com) 44. 05:52 PM - Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment (Finklea) 45. 06:10 PM - Re: Europa colours. Heat damage (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:48:46 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: Europa accident G-HOFC - POINTLESS comment > How many Europa deaths in how many months? 8 in 18 mos... I am concerned!! Your comment (without any sort of reasoned explanation) would appear to be meaningless sensationalism - its the sort of thing you would expect from some elements of the press. Why is it meaningless - because the crashes happened for different reasons - I havent checked but then im not really interested. The fact is that Europas have a very good safety record. Its like saying there were so many hundred aviation related deaths in the last 18 months - if you're so concerned dont fly and that includes commercial aircraft (they have a terrible safety record !!!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Finklea" Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 2:11 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126081#126081 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:36 AM PST US From: Gert Dalgaard Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment Dear "Finklea" Would it be to much to ask you to send comments like that to "The Sun" or similar press representatives - me and the rest of the Europa community have not got time to that sort of "science". Wish you a happy Sunday. Regards Gert / OY-GDS Den 29/07/2007 kl. 3.11 skrev Finklea: > > How many Europa deaths in how many months? 8 in 18 mos... I am > concerned!! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:04:39 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment From: "josok" No sign off, so no name to answer: No, it's even worse. You forget the owners that died even before they finished their planes. Even some neighbors of Europa builders and pilots died. There must be something terribly wrong. In reality investigations show that running out of gas and forgetting to fly the plane, coming in too slow and stall-spin on final, trying to return form upwind and stall are pilot related and could be fatal. In any plane. The last accident is still under investigation. The nice thing with numbers is that you can do so many things with them. Adding them up is the first thing we learn. Later in our education we usually learn that manipulating numbers has only meaning if we can stick some common factor to them. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:19:30 AM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Mod 74 In a message dated 28/07/2007 15:05:18 GMT Daylight Time, roger@middlecave.plus.com writes: Getting out the Mod leaflet, sorting out the logistics, etc. has been a bit of a nightmare, so I would be extremely grateful if Richard Holder would come and take over the company - he would undoubtedly be able to offer a better and cheaper service, and then John and I would be able to retire on our (non-existent) ill gotten gains! Well said Roger!! Trev Pond G-LINN ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:03 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: *** SPAM *** Europa-List: noise-cancelling mic [was: anr headsets] Thanks Rowland - You have left us in no doubt that you know your stuff - and have put it over in a manner that most of us can understand. My comments were based on my experience of aviation headsets rather than scientific analysis and I dont doubt that noise cancelling mics improve the situation considerably compared to non cancelling mics. At least when I open my mouth next time (on the subject) I can speak with a degree of authority. Kind regards, Carl & Dot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rowland & Wilma Carson" Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 5:17 PM Subject: *** SPAM *** Europa-List: noise-cancelling mic [was: anr headsets] > > > At 2007-07-27 20:07 +0100 Carl Pattinson wrote: > >>IMHO noise cancelling microphones dont seem to cancel out very much >>noise - maybe someone with a superior technical understanding might >>volunteer an explanation > > Carl - they certainly don't work perfectly, but if you compared a > recording made with the usual aviation-type noise-cancelling mic > side-by-side with one made using a conventional microphone, I think you > would notice the difference! I know they do work; I use a Sennheiser MD430 > "close-talking" mic to record speech (for announcements, etc) in normal > domestic locations, and that frees me from having to worry much about > intrusion of external noises. > > {As an aside, I recently swapped headsets with my instructor to try out > his ANR set. At first it didn't seem dramatically quieter than my own > Sennheiser HME 100, but switching the NC off & on again soon convinced me > that there was a big difference, particularly in the low frequencies. Just > being exposed to the engine noise while swapping headsets had disturbed my > own threshold enough to make the comparison difficult to make. > (Incidentally, we did this on the ground!) The moral is that a direct > comparison with a NON noise-cancelling mic would be needed to judge the > effectivenes of the noise-cancelling mic.} > > Many "noise-cancelling" microphones work on the principle of accepting > spherical pressure wave-fronts and rejecting planar wave-fronts. > > The idea is that a sound source very near the mic will produce a spherical > wave, expanding in all directions from the source. The wave-front from a > distant sound source will be much closer to a plane. > > Designers take advantage of this in various ways, often involving > labyrinth construction, so that the pressure variations from plane waves > arrive at the transducer out of phase, and thus tend to cancel out, > whereas pressure variations from wavefronts differing significantly from > planar do not cancel and may actually achieve a reinforcing effect. Of > course the effectiveness of this will be quite frequency-dependent. > > MIcrophones of this type are uusually referred to as pressure-gradient > types; those which respond equally to sounds from all directions and > distances are called pressure (or omnidirectional) types. The most common > ype of pressure-gradient mic is the cardiod (or unidirectional) type, > typically seen on stage for singers or announcers, which responds much > more sensitively to sounds from the front than from the back or sides. > However, the standard cardiod is not noise-cancelling; it will respond > equally to all sounds arriving along its axis of sensitivity. The true > noise-cancelling mic is rarer, and (apart from the ones in aviation > headsets) the most likely place to see one is on a PA system where the > announcer is in the room served by the sound system (eg at airports). It > does require the talker to be very close to the mic inn order to work > properly. That's why you need to get your headset mic as close to your > mouth as possible, but without putting it in the direct path of the breath > puffs from plosive sounds (words with syllables starting with P, B, T, D > etc). Hence the advice often seen to position the mic at the corner of > your mouth. > > One of the finest examples of the noise-cancelling mic technique was the > STC 4104, sometimes referred to as the "Raymond Glendenning" model because > he was seldom pictured without one. It had a small pad which was placed > against the upper lip (or moustache as the case may be) in use, thus > ensuring accurate positioning of the lips in the location intended by the > designer. It was designed for radio use, before the days of > sound-insulated commentary boxes, but was latterly also used by TV > commentators on Saturday afternoons for reading the football results live > from a (very noisy) teleprinter. Very occasionally one can be seen still, > typically with a reporter wearing ear-muffs and standing beside a running > jet engine or other very noisy artifact. > > My own Telex 66C aviation mic (acquired way back before the universal use > of headsets, when I couldn't be sure the mic in the flying school aircraft > would always be working, and carried until recently as an emergency > backup) is very similar in principle, having a protruding ridge that you > can rest on your top lip for accurate positioning. It also benefits from > the slight non-linear sensitivity of the carbon-granule transducer. > (That's why old-fashioned phones with carbon mics tended to discriminate > in favour of the speech from the user and somewhat attenuate lower-level > sound, whether speech or other; of course the carbon granules introduced > lots of noise of their own, but that's a different issue!) > > I think the common approach for aviation headset boom mics now is to have > matching orifices front and rear, each communicating with opposite sides > of the transducer diaphragm. Thus plane pressure waves (ie those from > relatively far away) will tend to be displacing the diaphragm both > forwards and backwards at the same time, so cancelling out. The distance > from the talkers lips to the nearest orifice should be of a similar scale > to the air-path round to the orifice on the other side of the mic. Thus > (over a restricted frequency range) the user's speech can generate > positive pressure on the front of the diaphragm, accompanied by a > reduction in pressure at the back of the diaphragm (and vice versa). > > Sorry, this is probably much more info than anybody wanted, but hope it > helps to understand the principles. > > regards > > Rowland > -- > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:23 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: Fw: *** SPAM *** Mod 74 Richard, While I cant fault your reasoning on this matter all I would say is that you are missing the point. Europa aircraft provides a service, not just bundled components sourced from RS or elsewhere. Someone ???? has to pay for that service and this is reflected in the cost of parts/ kits supplied. Better that Europa charge extortionate prices (allegedly) and stay in business than being cheap and going bust. Having owned a company that went bust I learned that lesson the hard way - and believe me it was a very expensive lesson ! Carl > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Holder" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 12:00 AM > Subject: *** SPAM *** Mod 74 > > >> Carl wrote >> >>> With only 500 or so aircraft out there you have to sell >>> a hell of a lot of spares and kits just to cover the >>> day to day running costs of the business. >> >>> Its easy to work out the cost of the raw materials and >>> argue that the final cost is a rip off but Europa >>> dosent enjoy the economies of scale that larger >>> businesses enjoy. The thousand or so wing pins that >>> have to be manufactured will certainly cost more than a >>> few pence each. >> >> I doubt if it is as many as that - there weren't 500 >> classics ! >> >> Anyway if the nuts and washers are 1 the set (and that is >> overgenerous) do you think the pins cost 19.50 each ? >> When buying say 600 ? I doubt it - more like 5 each - >> giving Europa a fat profit of 300 x 29 = 8700 (handling >> and postage is charged separately) for something that if >> it had occurred on the watch of the original Europa >> company would have been provided for free as a mandatory >> mod caused by a design fault. >> >>> No one likes having to shell out for mandatory mods but >>> fifty quid for a safer aircraft sounds like a bargain >>> to me. >> >> It is not likely to make the aircraft safer. There are >> hundreds out there whose wing pin mounts have been >> inspected and passed. And they have done tens of thousands >> of hours. William's accident was not caused by the win >> pins. The wing pin separated because of some other causal >> event. >> >> Nor is it 50. Based on Mod 73 the work is going to cost >> another 200 - 300, and more down time. >> >> Richard >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Mod 74 From: neveyre@aol.com Roger has to be diplomatic, I do not ! If gobby di**heads like Richard Holder are so upset with either the Europa plane itself, or the E04 operation, can he do us all a favour and sell?his Europa to?someone,? and buy something else ? If I?were at E04,?I would refuse to sell Richard the parts [ or any parts for that matter ], and ensure that he didn't get them via other owners. Nev. In a message dated 28/07/2007 15:05:18 GMT Daylight Time, roger@middlecave.plus.com writes: Getting out the Mod leaflet, sorting out the logistics, etc. has been a bit of a nightmare, so I would be extremely grateful if Richard Holder would come and take over the company - he would undoubtedly be? able to offer a better and cheaper service, and then John and I would be able to retire on our (non-existent) ill gotten gains! -----Original Message----- From: Trevpond@aol.com Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 11.16am Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Mod 74 In a message dated 28/07/2007 15:05:18 GMT Daylight Time, roger@middlecave.plus.com writes: Getting out the Mod leaflet, sorting out the logistics, etc. has been a bit of a nightmare, so I would be extremely grateful if Richard Holder would come and take over the company - he would undoubtedly be? able to offer a better and cheaper service, and then John and I would be able to retire on our (non-existent) ill gotten gains! ? Well said Roger!! ? ? Trev Pond G-LINN ________________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE AOL Email account with 2GB of storage. Plus, share and store photos and experience exclusively recorded live music Sessions from your favourite artists. Find out more at http://info.aol.co.uk/joinnow/?ncid=548. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:47 AM PST US From: "Europa List" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: *** SPAM *** Mod 74 I have found that anything that has the adjectives "motorcycle" or "aircraft" attached to it costs more than a similar part from the hardware store. From my years in the manufacturing of metal parts, I am aware of different standards being applied to parts that look identical, so rather than take a chance on failure, I spend more to buy properly spec'ed parts. Am I safer? I couldn't tell you. Do I worry less? Yes. Will my manufacturer be around when I need a dealer specific part? I'm hoping that my patronage means that they will be. Look around. I believe that a truthful assessment of Europa 2004 prices on most parts/components to be well within reason. Besides, they are a darn nice bunch of guys who are willing to answer the most inane questions without laughing. Thanks guys. Vaughn Teegarden N914VA, Gathering steam for the final push ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 7:20 AM Subject: Europa-List: Fw: *** SPAM *** Mod 74 > > > Richard, > > While I cant fault your reasoning on this matter all I would say is that > you are missing the point. > > Europa aircraft provides a service, not just bundled components sourced > from RS or elsewhere. Someone ???? has to pay for that service and this is > reflected in the cost of parts/ kits supplied. > > Better that Europa charge extortionate prices (allegedly) and stay in > business than being cheap and going bust. > > Having owned a company that went bust I learned that lesson the hard > way - and believe me it was a very > expensive lesson ! > > Carl > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Richard Holder" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 12:00 AM >> Subject: *** SPAM *** Mod 74 >> >> >>> Carl wrote >>> >>>> With only 500 or so aircraft out there you have to sell >>>> a hell of a lot of spares and kits just to cover the >>>> day to day running costs of the business. >>> >>>> Its easy to work out the cost of the raw materials and >>>> argue that the final cost is a rip off but Europa >>>> dosent enjoy the economies of scale that larger >>>> businesses enjoy. The thousand or so wing pins that >>>> have to be manufactured will certainly cost more than a >>>> few pence each. >>> >>> I doubt if it is as many as that - there weren't 500 >>> classics ! >>> >>> Anyway if the nuts and washers are 1 the set (and that is >>> overgenerous) do you think the pins cost 19.50 each ? >>> When buying say 600 ? I doubt it - more like 5 each - >>> giving Europa a fat profit of 300 x 29 = 8700 (handling >>> and postage is charged separately) for something that if >>> it had occurred on the watch of the original Europa >>> company would have been provided for free as a mandatory >>> mod caused by a design fault. >>> >>>> No one likes having to shell out for mandatory mods but >>>> fifty quid for a safer aircraft sounds like a bargain >>>> to me. >>> >>> It is not likely to make the aircraft safer. There are >>> hundreds out there whose wing pin mounts have been >>> inspected and passed. And they have done tens of thousands >>> of hours. William's accident was not caused by the win >>> pins. The wing pin separated because of some other causal >>> event. >>> >>> Nor is it 50. Based on Mod 73 the work is going to cost >>> another 200 - 300, and more down time. >>> >>> Richard >>> >>> >>> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:31 AM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment The RV design is very suspect as well. We had two of them run out of fue l on takeoff, and one stall spin to final this year already in my area. 5 fatal. Must b e a bad design. Glenn> Subject: Europa-List: Re : Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment> From: josok-e@ukolo.fi> Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:00:50 +0300> To: europa-list@matronics.com> > --> Europa-Lis t message posted by: "josok" > > No sign off, so no name to answer:> No, it's even worse. You forget the owners that died even befor e they finished their planes. Even some neighbors of Europa builders and pi lots died. There must be something terribly wrong. > In reality investigati ons show that running out of gas and forgetting to fly the plane, coming in too slow and stall-spin on final, trying to return form upwind and stall a re pilot related and could be fatal. > In any plane. > The last accident is still under investigation. > The nice thing with numbers is that you can d o so many things with them. Adding them up is the first thing we learn. Lat er in our education we usually learn that manipulating numbers has only mea ning if we can stick some common factor to them. > > Regards,> > Jos Okhuij =====> > > _________________________________________________________________ See what you=92re getting into=85before you go there. http://newlivehotmail.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:29 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: Mod 74 I couldnt have put it better myself (possibly with the exception of Nevilles aposite response) May the force be with you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Europa List" Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: *** SPAM *** Mod 74 > > I have found that anything that has the adjectives "motorcycle" or > "aircraft" attached to it costs more than a similar part from the hardware > store. From my years in the manufacturing of metal parts, I am aware of > different standards being applied to parts that look identical, so rather > than take a chance on failure, I spend more to buy properly spec'ed parts. > Am I safer? I couldn't tell you. Do I worry less? Yes. Will my > manufacturer be around when I need a dealer specific part? I'm hoping that > my patronage means that they will be. Look around. I believe that a > truthful assessment of Europa 2004 prices on most parts/components to be > well within reason. Besides, they are a darn nice bunch of guys who are > willing to answer the most inane questions without laughing. Thanks guys. > > Vaughn Teegarden > N914VA, Gathering steam for the final push > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Pattinson" > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 7:20 AM > Subject: Europa-List: Fw: *** SPAM *** Mod 74 > > >> >> >> Richard, >> >> While I cant fault your reasoning on this matter all I would say is that >> you are missing the point. >> >> Europa aircraft provides a service, not just bundled components sourced >> from RS or elsewhere. Someone ???? has to pay for that service and this >> is >> reflected in the cost of parts/ kits supplied. >> >> Better that Europa charge extortionate prices (allegedly) and stay in >> business than being cheap and going bust. >> >> Having owned a company that went bust I learned that lesson the hard >> way - and believe me it was a very >> expensive lesson ! >> >> Carl >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Richard Holder" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 12:00 AM >>> Subject: *** SPAM *** Mod 74 >>> >>> >>>> Carl wrote >>>> >>>>> With only 500 or so aircraft out there you have to sell >>>>> a hell of a lot of spares and kits just to cover the >>>>> day to day running costs of the business. >>>> >>>>> Its easy to work out the cost of the raw materials and >>>>> argue that the final cost is a rip off but Europa >>>>> dosent enjoy the economies of scale that larger >>>>> businesses enjoy. The thousand or so wing pins that >>>>> have to be manufactured will certainly cost more than a >>>>> few pence each. >>>> >>>> I doubt if it is as many as that - there weren't 500 >>>> classics ! >>>> >>>> Anyway if the nuts and washers are 1 the set (and that is >>>> overgenerous) do you think the pins cost 19.50 each ? >>>> When buying say 600 ? I doubt it - more like 5 each - >>>> giving Europa a fat profit of 300 x 29 = 8700 (handling >>>> and postage is charged separately) for something that if >>>> it had occurred on the watch of the original Europa >>>> company would have been provided for free as a mandatory >>>> mod caused by a design fault. >>>> >>>>> No one likes having to shell out for mandatory mods but >>>>> fifty quid for a safer aircraft sounds like a bargain >>>>> to me. >>>> >>>> It is not likely to make the aircraft safer. There are >>>> hundreds out there whose wing pin mounts have been >>>> inspected and passed. And they have done tens of thousands >>>> of hours. William's accident was not caused by the win >>>> pins. The wing pin separated because of some other causal >>>> event. >>>> >>>> Nor is it 50. Based on Mod 73 the work is going to cost >>>> another 200 - 300, and more down time. >>>> >>>> Richard >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:48 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment Im getting kinda pissed off with some of the mindless (and dangerous) comments that certain individuals seem to make - but then you have the right to make them (just as I have the right to get pissed off). Designers do not have absolute control over how their designs are built - BUILDERS do ! When your car (or plane) runs out of gas is it the designers fault - NO its yours !!! When your plane spins into the ground because you are a stupid pilot is it the designers fault - NO its the pilots fault. Bad design - where's your evidence ? I hope you don't own a Europa (or an RV) because by the time you have finished telling the world how badly designed they are, they wont be worth bugger all. Rant over. PS: My comments ar in no way directed towards Williams tragic demise. The fact is we dont know what happened so should refrain from speculating till we do (or till the AAIB makes its findings known) ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn crowder To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 3:15 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment The RV design is very suspect as well. We had two of them run out of fuel on takeoff, and one stall spin to final this year already in my area. 5 fatal. Must be a bad design. Glenn > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment > From: josok-e@ukolo.fi > Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:00:50 +0300 > To: europa-list@matronics..com > > > No sign off, so no name to answer: > No, it's even worse. You forget the owners that died even before they finished their planes. Even some neighbors of Europa builders and pilots died.. There must be something terribly wrong. > In reality investigations show that running out of gas and forgetting to fly the plane, coming in too slow and stall-spin on final, trying to return form upwind and stall are pilot related and could be fatal. > In any plane. > The last accident is still under investigation. > The nice thing with numbers is that you can do so many things with them. Adding them up is the first thing we learn. Later in our education we usually learn that manipulating numbers has only meaning if we can stick some common factor to them. > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > ===== > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what you=92re getting into=85before you go there. Check it out! ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:38 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment From: "josok" Hi Folks, Lets take it easy. It's usually me who gets over exited. Of course there is a lot of nuisence in these events, but it's not a reason to start beating each other. That parts made to specification in small quanteties on short notice are relative expensive might be clear. Full fuel is also expensive, and that is more then a one off event. [quote]The fact is we dont know what happened so should refrain from speculating till we do (or till the AAIB makes its findings known) [quote] -----Is the very important thing to remember. Sofar everything, also the remedies of the PFA are based on more or less educated guessing. My bet is elsewhere. Kind Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:08 AM PST US From: "Jeremy Davey" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment Errr, Carl, I think Glenn was taking the piss out of the 'Finklea' plonker :-) Now, if I remember correctly, Glenn is American and Carl is British. Ya gotta love the irony in a Brit missing irony that has come from an American... J Cheers, JD From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson Sent: 29 July 2007 15:46 Subject: Europa-List: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment Im getting kinda pissed off with some of the mindless (and dangerous) comments that certain individuals seem to make - but then you have the right to make them (just as I have the right to get pissed off). Designers do not have absolute control over how their designs are built - BUILDERS do ! When your car (or plane) runs out of gas is it the designers fault - NO its yours !!! When your plane spins into the ground because you are a stupid pilot is it the designers fault - NO its the pilots fault. Bad design - where's your evidence ? I hope you don't own a Europa (or an RV) because by the time you have finished telling the world how badly designed they are, they wont be worth bugger all. Rant over. PS: My comments ar in no way directed towards Williams tragic demise. The fact is we dont know what happened so should refrain from speculating till we do (or till the AAIB makes its findings known) ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn crowder Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 3:15 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment The RV design is very suspect as well. We had two of them run out of fuel on takeoff, and one stall spin to final this year already in my area. 5 fatal. Must be a bad design. Glenn > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment > From: josok-e@ukolo.fi > Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:00:50 +0300 > To: europa-list@matronics..com > > > No sign off, so no name to answer: > No, it's even worse. You forget the owners that died even before they finished their planes. Even some neighbors of Europa builders and pilots died.. There must be something terribly wrong. > In reality investigations show that running out of gas and forgetting to fly the plane, coming in too slow and stall-spin on final, trying to return form upwind and stall are pilot related and could be fatal. > In any plane. > The last accident is still under investigation. > The nice thing with numbers is that you can do so many things with them. Adding them up is the first thing we learn. Later in our education we usually learn that manipulating numbers has only meaning if we can stick some common factor to them. > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > ===== > > > _____ See what you're getting into.before you go there. Check it out! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:54 AM PST US From: "Niels Kock" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Richard, here are my mod 73 results: Name: Niels Kock Country DK Aircr. reg OY-ODA Type Mono Classic Progress Completed Disbonding TP6 None Pins Original Problems No slop Kind regards, Niels Kock ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Iddon To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 9:35 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 results Name Country Airplane reg. Type Progress on mod 73 Disbonding of TP6 pip pins used Any problems found Richard Iddon UK G-RIXS Tri gear Completed None found 2 in. Nothing major Steve Pitt UK G-SMDH Tri gear Completed None found 2=22 Nothing major Ron Jones UK G-RJWX Mono Completed None found Original Tim Ward NZ ZK-TIM Mono Not Done None Found Original Very slight movement in starboard TP12. Present on installing (1998)- no worse. Danny Shepherd UK G-CERI tri gear completed none found 2=22 18/07/2007 15:30 18/07/2007 15:30 =5F-=========================================================== =5F-= - The Europa-List Email Forum - =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse =5F-= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, =5F-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, =5F-= Photoshare, and much much more: =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator=3FEuropa-List =5F-=========================================================== =5F-= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =5F-= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums! =5F-= --> http://forums.matronics.com =5F-=========================================================== -- Jeg beskyttes af den gratis SPAMfighter til privatbrugere. Den har indtil videre sparet mig for at f=E5 1642 spam-mails. Betalende brugere f=E5r ikke denne besked i deres e-mails. Hent gratis SPAMfighter her: http://www.spamfighter.com/lda ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:13 AM PST US From: "Niels Kock" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment Helt enig, Gert. Nu har han vist ogs=E5 f=E5et t=F8rt p=E5! Hilsen, Niels ----- Original Message ----- From: Gert Dalgaard To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 11:32 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment Dear =22Finklea=22 Would it be to much to ask you to send comments like that to =22The Sun=22 or similar press representatives - me and the rest of the Europa community ha ve not got time to that sort of =22science=22. Wish you a happy Sunday. Regards Gert / OY-GDS Den 29/07/2007 kl. 3.11 skrev Finklea: How many Europa deaths in how many months=3F 8 in 18 mos... I am concerne d!! =5F-=========================================================== =5F-= - The Europa-List Email Forum - =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse =5F-= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, =5F-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, =5F-= Photoshare, and much much more: =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator=3FEuropa-List =5F-=========================================================== =5F-= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =5F-= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums! =5F-= --> http://forums.matronics.com =5F-=========================================================== -- Jeg beskyttes af den gratis SPAMfighter til privatbrugere. Den har indtil videre sparet mig for at f=E5 1642 spam-mails. Betalende brugere f=E5r ikke denne besked i deres e-mails. Hent gratis SPAMfighter her: http://www.spamfighter.com/lda ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:32 AM PST US From: Gert Dalgaard Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment Takker. Hilsen Gert Den 29/07/2007 kl. 17.56 skrev Niels Kock: > Helt enig, Gert. Nu har han vist ogs=E5 f=E5et t=F8rt p=E5! > Hilsen, > Niels > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gert Dalgaard > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 11:32 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment > > Dear "Finklea" > Would it be to much to ask you to send comments like that to "The > Sun" or similar press representatives - me and the rest of the > Europa community have not got time to that sort of "science". > Wish you a happy Sunday. > Regards Gert / OY-GDS > > > Den 29/07/2007 kl. 3.11 skrev Finklea: > >> >> How many Europa deaths in how many months? 8 in 18 mos... I am >> concerned!! > > ======================== > ======================== > > Jeg beskyttes af den gratis SPAMfighter til privatbrugere. > Den har indtil videre sparet mig for at f=E5 1642 spam-mails > Betalende brugere f=E5r ikke denne besked i deres e-mails. > Hent en gratis SPAMfighter her. > ======================== > ======================== > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:45 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours. Heat damage In this respect it may interest owners to know that my Europa came back from our trip to Morocco last year with ripples/dimples in the skin corresponding to where the heels of pilot and passenger go in normal flying position. My guess is that we parked the plane on some particularly hot black tarmac, in front of a closed aluminium hangar door that was reflecting extra sunlight onto that tarmac. The heat radiating from the ground to the underside of the plane was enough to soften it, so that heel pressure when we got back in distorted the skins! It is worth taking the skin colour and heating possibilities seriously! Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Housman" Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 4:02 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours Sorry Raimo, but this is dangerous thinking for those of us flying in warmer climes. In my previous post I deliberately avoided getting into too much technical detail, and I used the word "reflected" where I should have used the technically correct term "emitted." First, you seem to misunderstand heat transfer. You are correct that the sun's energy is not reflected from a black surface. However, a "black body" is not only a perfect absorber but also a perfect emitter, which is to say it may not be reflecting solar heating but it surely emits it. Park on a black surface and the solar energy absorbed by that surface will be re-radiated to the underside of the aircraft, and if that aircraft is any color but white it will absorb too much energy. Any material absorbing energy will increase in temperature. Sure, there will be some re-radiation from the dark aircraft structure but that is irrelevant because the epoxy-fiberglass will already have softened. Second, the Lancair aircraft all use a different composite than Europa. Here's how Lancair describes their composites on their web site http://www.lancair.com/Main/legacy.html --- "Like every Lancair, the Legacy's major airframe is constructed of advanced composite materials. Cured at 270 degrees Fahrenheit under vacuum pressure, these NASA tested, epoxy based composites are among the lightest, strongest, stiffest materials known. The high-temperature, pre-impregnated carbon fiber and/or fiberglass systems combined with Nomex/honeycomb core materials are considered the supreme composite airframe materials of choice worldwide." Note that the Lancair's composites are cured at a much higher temperature than the factory and we cure the Europa structural components. The "glass transition temperature" is approximately the cure temperature so softening of the composite does not begin until approximately T sub g is reached. For a detailed explanation to T sub g see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_transition_temperature For our purposes we can consider the glass transition temperature the softening temperature, above which the structure loses a significant portion of its strength. Anyone contemplating painting a Europa any color other than white (including yellow) should review the chart in the Builders Manual, Figure 1, Colour-Temperature Relationship, on page 36-1 of the Europa XS Tri-Gear Manual, Issue 1, dated 30 May 1998. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 1:28 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Rob, I am not going to encourage anybody to paint their Europas undersides any colour but white. I still well remember Manuals words: all the Europas must be white. I still have to point out the energy of the sun is NOT reflecting out of the black asphalt IMHO. That is why it is hot when a sunny day. It absorbs allmost all the heat energy and nothing is reflecting out. White surfaces are cool because they are reflecting out much more. So it could be more dangerous to keep it on the snow covered surface while a sunny day (or on white sand or water w Europa floats!). In Sweden there has been 10 years a wonderful full colour mid red Lancair 320 and no composite problems at all. Register # is SE-XOP (!). And like we all know in South America (Columbia?) there is flying a total deep yellow Europa. I think - with other colour as white - it is better to be even more careful. Beauty is a good reason for some extra work and some sacrifice. That is the fact all the women know. That is all. "Keep your full matt black Europa in the hangar and fly only night time if you wanna be absolutely sure" Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Housman Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 2:32 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa rules Mike - In re: dark paint Don't even think about it. Where we live and fly, on warm days the heat reflected off the ramp will be sufficient to soften the epoxy-fiberglass enough to reduce the strength of the structure. Sure it will be OK at altitude but you still have to climb away from the surface. Folks flying closer to the Arctic Circle don't have to worry about getting the airframe too hot. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DuaneFamly@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa rules Raimo, Congratulations to you and your aircraft. I think we can all stand a little taller and more proud when one of "our" planes tops the list of all in an entire country. Do you have any pix of you panel? Is the underside of your aircraft really painted dark? Black, blue, brown? Any reasoning for this? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop _____ . http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:59 AM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: Europa-List: RE: Some good news for a change. Hi Everyone I finally decided to make an honest woman of Kate. We got married yesterday here on the Isle of Man. The weather was fantastically kind to us and the service went off without a single problem, as did the outdoor reception. I even managed to muddle my way through my speech without too many people falling asleep. Cheers Alan 15:50 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:55 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment From: "Finklea" Forum members, Sorry to "offend" you with what was considered a POINTLESS COMMENT. Actually, I should have elaborated more than just saying "I am concerned" My brother was the passenger killed in Ken Hill's N214KS Europa XS that crashed on June 16 in Livermore. He too was a pilot in Viet Nam logging thousands of wartime hours.I have friends looking to build Europas or seaplane kits using the same engines but are also concerned about loss of power issues with this specific engine. I'm sorry if I spoke out of line... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126184#126184 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:57 AM PST US From: "Jeremy Davey" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Some good news for a change. Congratulations to you both, Alan! I understand that Kate is qualified to find her way around in the dark: is she going to train you up, too, now? Kind regards, Jeremy -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Burrows Sent: 29 July 2007 19:13 Subject: Europa-List: RE: Some good news for a change. Hi Everyone I finally decided to make an honest woman of Kate. We got married yesterday here on the Isle of Man. The weather was fantastically kind to us and the service went off without a single problem, as did the outdoor reception. I even managed to muddle my way through my speech without too many people falling asleep. Cheers Alan 15:50 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:07 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment Yeah, my Comanche also had the bad habit of quitting on takeoff when it didn't have any fuel in it... must be a common design fault. - Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of glenn crowder Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 9:15 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment The RV design is very suspect as well. We had two of them run out of fuel on takeoff, and one stall spin to final this year already in my area. 5 fatal. Must be a bad design. Glenn ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:23 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment From: "Finklea" Not only did this plane have a full factory tank of fuel, Ken,much to my dismay, also had 1 or 2 aux plastic Evinrude tanks that erupted upon impact leaving nothing but a 1 foot pile of rubble and mostly cremated remains of he and my brother....so this is not a "forgot to fuel" issue! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126190#126190 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:52 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment From: "josok" Hi Finklea, My condolences with the loss of your brother. And still, you are out of line, because you can not simply add up accidents. And you do it again, your second message starts about the engine.There are no known problems with the engine or the airframe. As a matter of fact, both have an excellent safety record. But if there is no fuel going to the engine, because there is none, or the flow is blocked, it will stop. That does not have to mean disaster, because you can land an airplane like the Europa perfectly without a running engine. Your brother was not killed because of a not running engine, he was killed because the pilot tried to return to the runway, something that is a no-no. Statistically it is the very experienced pilot who tries anyhow, killing himself and others. The other tragic accidents that have happened have again different causes, and again nothing to do with engine or airframe. Maybe, maybe the last one is airframe related, but we don't know yet. Finklea, please if you do not understand these things ask, and do not start throwing accusations around. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:00 PM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Some good news for a change. Congratulations Alan & Kate. Are you organising a DOTH over there to celebrate? Richard Iddon G-RIXS -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Burrows Sent: 29 July 2007 19:13 Subject: Europa-List: RE: Some good news for a change. Hi Everyone I finally decided to make an honest woman of Kate. We got married yesterday here on the Isle of Man. The weather was fantastically kind to us and the service went off without a single problem, as did the outdoor reception. I even managed to muddle my way through my speech without too many people falling asleep. Cheers Alan 15:50 28/07/2007 15:50 28/07/2007 15:50 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:31 PM PST US From: "Jeremy Davey" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment First of all, my condolences on the loss of your brother. It must be hard to understand that loss. Secondly, your emails... Please understand that you have wandered into a group of folks who build and fly their planes with great pride. They believe in the type, they mostly understand both its limitations and their own. And they mourn - as they are doing now - the loss of their friends. I think you'll find that the vast majority of folks on here are careful not to pre-judge the investigators of either recent accident. You may be also aware that your brother and Ken were lost between the funeral of one of our lost UK friends, and that of the other? That said, we know from the statistics that the vast majority of accidents are caused by pilot error, or are mechanical issues that become accidents due to poor judgement. And I'm sure you understand that a comment from an unannounced stranger, apparently pointing the finger at the type, is both helpful and unwelcome. Before we go further, perhaps I can invite you to introduce yourself properly? Regards, Jeremy -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Finklea Sent: 29 July 2007 20:36 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment Not only did this plane have a full factory tank of fuel, Ken,much to my dismay, also had 1 or 2 aux plastic Evinrude tanks that erupted upon impact leaving nothing but a 1 foot pile of rubble and mostly cremated remains of he and my brother....so this is not a "forgot to fuel" issue! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126190#126190 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:02 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Return Fuel Flow Compensation query From: "steve v " Hi, on my Standard Rotax 912S installation there is a return line to the fuel tank, i have callibrated my Fuel Flow meter to read quit accuratly, however, there is an error when the Fuel pump is switched on as the Fuel Flow is intrepeted as being "conciderably higher" when there is in fact no change, anyway, i came across this device http://www.matronics.com/fuelchec/RFC/index.htm which looks as though it may solve my problems so, has any one fitted one and is it any good? Steve Vestuti G-CEBV #573 Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:02 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment From: "josok" Well, i give up. You can't read or don't understand English. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:58 PM PST US From: "Jeremy Davey" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment Arrrgghhh - for "helpful" please read "unhelpful" :-( Regards, Jeremy -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Davey Sent: 29 July 2007 21:18 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment First of all, my condolences on the loss of your brother. It must be hard to understand that loss. Secondly, your emails... Please understand that you have wandered into a group of folks who build and fly their planes with great pride. They believe in the type, they mostly understand both its limitations and their own. And they mourn - as they are doing now - the loss of their friends. I think you'll find that the vast majority of folks on here are careful not to pre-judge the investigators of either recent accident. You may be also aware that your brother and Ken were lost between the funeral of one of our lost UK friends, and that of the other? That said, we know from the statistics that the vast majority of accidents are caused by pilot error, or are mechanical issues that become accidents due to poor judgement. And I'm sure you understand that a comment from an unannounced stranger, apparently pointing the finger at the type, is both helpful and unwelcome. Before we go further, perhaps I can invite you to introduce yourself properly? Regards, Jeremy -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Finklea Sent: 29 July 2007 20:36 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment Not only did this plane have a full factory tank of fuel, Ken,much to my dismay, also had 1 or 2 aux plastic Evinrude tanks that erupted upon impact leaving nothing but a 1 foot pile of rubble and mostly cremated remains of he and my brother....so this is not a "forgot to fuel" issue! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126190#126190 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:44 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Return Fuel Flow Compensation query From: "josok" Hi Steve, It's good and i have it. It's not cheap, and you will need a second flow sensor in the return line as well. For the 912 it's possible to go without, have a look at the Dynon avionics pages, there is a much cheaper solution in the D180 installation manual. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:11 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Dynon From: "Tony Krzyzewski" >> Is this code going to be transferable to others fitting the D180 and other Dynons please? Yes. Anyone with one of my existing fuel senders can get their chips upgraded to include this new code. The circuit diagram for my sender as supplied already incorporates the necessary 0-5v output that the Dynon EMS requires. I've got a few more little tweaks I want to do with the code before I'll be happy to release it as I need to introduce some hysteresis into the raw voltage output to prevent the display bouncing up and down when you hit a bump! I incorporated that function into the bar graph display output on the existing devices but never bothered about including it into the raw voltage output. I have already been asked if the capacitance gauge emulation will include linearization of the Europa tank shape and the answer is no. The Dynon's fuel gauge calibration process effectively linearises the tank measurements so there is no need to include that in the sender. Regards Tony ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours. Heat damage From: Fred Klein > The heat radiating from the ground to the underside of the plane was > enough to soften it, so that heel pressure when we got back in > distorted the skins! I've been somewhat perplexed as I've followed this thread, re-read chapter 37 in the build manual, recalled the factory promotional pics of a beautiful blue-bottomed specimen, seen pics of Thomas Sherer's 10 year old bird, and learned of several new Europas with extensive underside painting in dark tones. In response to concerns raised, some of the posts have seemed somewhat cavalier on a topic which, if misunderstood, may have grave consequences. If anyone can cite an authoritative reference (no anecdotes please) on temperature/strength issues of the epoxies used by Europa which challenges the color/temp chart in chap. 37 I'd love to read it. I realize I'm free to paint my "experimental" plane however I choose, but I'd like to make a "reality-based" decision. Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:10 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Return Fuel Flow Compensation query From: "Tony Krzyzewski" http://www.matronics.com/fuelchec/RFC/index.htm which looks as though it may solve my problems so, has any one fitted one and is it any good? Yes, it's very good. We fitted one to 912 powered ZK-UBD as an input to the datalogger when we were flight testing the Airmaster prop so we could get accurate measurements on fuel burn for each of the pitch settings. As the datalogger also includes a gps input I have a very useful miles per gallon and available range indication for long distance trips as a result. Tony ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:11 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Return Fuel Flow Compensation query Steve, If you are using the fuel flow system for the Grand Rapids EIS it is possible to add a flow second sensor. With that said, it is my understanding that the return flow is minuscule and the error should be very small. Paul ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:14 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours. Heat damage From: "Tony Krzyzewski" >>> If anyone can cite an authoritative reference (no anecdotes please) on temperature/strength issues of the epoxies used by Europa which challenges the color/temp chart in chap. 37 I'd love to read it. Hi Fred, I can't quote any authorative source but I was on the Europa show stand when the wrinkles in the nose of the US demonstrator were discovered. The plane had been standing on hot tarmac and the skin temperature difference between the dark blue underside and the white upper surface was astonishing. As a result I immediately scrapped my idea of having dark blue wing tips and decided that the guidelines in the build manual were very valid.... white or light tones are good - and the heat doesn't always come from above! Tony ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:45 PM PST US From: "Jerry Rehn" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Return Fuel Flow Compensation query I have the Grand Rapids EIS and tried 1 flow sensor on my 914, it was very erratic and I couldn't get it to work properly. I contacted Grand Rapids and they told me I needed the second flow sensor for the 914 which I then installed and now I have a very accurate fuel flow sensor. I think that the fuel return can very some especially with the second fuel pump on. Anyway two works for me, maybe somebody can make a single work. Jerry -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 2:37 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Return Fuel Flow Compensation query Steve, If you are using the fuel flow system for the Grand Rapids EIS it is possible to add a flow second sensor. With that said, it is my understanding that the return flow is minuscule and the error should be very small. Paul ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:04 PM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Mod 74 Subtle as ever Nev. But I think you made your point. Now back in your basket rover :-) Cheers Pal Alan _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of neveyre@aol.com Sent: 29 July 2007 13:36 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Mod 74 Roger has to be diplomatic, I do not ! If gobby di**heads like Richard Holder are so upset with either the Europa plane itself, or the E04 operation, can he do us all a favour and sell his Europa to someone, and buy something else ? If I were at E04, I would refuse to sell Richard the parts [ or any parts for that matter ], and ensure that he didn't get them via other owners. Nev. In a message dated 28/07/2007 15:05:18 GMT Daylight Time, HYPERLINK "mailto:roger@middlecave.plus.com"roger@middlecave.plus.com writes: Getting out the Mod leaflet, sorting out the logistics, etc. has been a bit of a nightmare, so I would be extremely grateful if Richard Holder would come and take over the company - he would undoubtedly be able to offer a better and cheaper service, and then John and I would be able to retire on our (non-existent) ill gotten gains! -----Original Message----- From: Trevpond@aol.com Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 11.16am Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Mod 74 In a message dated 28/07/2007 15:05:18 GMT Daylight Time, HYPERLINK "mailto:roger@middlecave.plus.com"roger@middlecave.plus.com writes: Getting out the Mod leaflet, sorting out the logistics, etc. has been a bit of a nightmare, so I would be extremely grateful if Richard Holder would come and take over the company - he would undoubtedly be able to offer a better and cheaper service, and then John and I would be able to retire on our (non-existent) ill gotten gains! Well said Roger!! Trev Pond G-LINN _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> Get a FREE AOL Email account with 2GB of storage. Plus, share and store photos and experience exclusively recorded live music Sessions from your favourite artists. HYPERLINK "http://info.aol.co.uk/joinnow/?ncid=548" \nClick Here for more information. "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Europa-List 15:50 15:50 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:12 PM PST US From: Rman Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Some good news for a change. Alan, Congratulations to you and Kate. Life now truly begins... Jeff - Baby Blue 306 hours Alan Burrows wrote: > > Hi Everyone > > I finally decided to make an honest woman of Kate. We got married yesterday > here on the Isle of Man. The weather was fantastically kind to us and the > service went off without a single problem, as did the outdoor reception. > I even managed to muddle my way through my speech without too many people > falling asleep. > Cheers > > Alan > > 15:50 > > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:23 PM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Some good news for a change. I'm sure I dont know what you mean Jeremy, I have always been able to find my way around in (ouch) the dark :-) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Davey Sent: 29 July 2007 19:53 Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Some good news for a change. Congratulations to you both, Alan! I understand that Kate is qualified to find her way around in the dark: is she going to train you up, too, now? Kind regards, Jeremy -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Burrows Sent: 29 July 2007 19:13 Subject: Europa-List: RE: Some good news for a change. Hi Everyone I finally decided to make an honest woman of Kate. We got married yesterday here on the Isle of Man. The weather was fantastically kind to us and the service went off without a single problem, as did the outdoor reception. I even managed to muddle my way through my speech without too many people falling asleep. Cheers Alan 15:50 15:50 15:50 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:49 PM PST US From: Rman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours. Heat damage Fred, The temperature difference in colors on Baby Blue varies less than 5 degrees F. The darkest color is a light blue (thus the name). Like Tony said, white or light... Jeff Fred Klein wrote: > >> The heat radiating from the ground to the underside of the plane was >> enough to soften it, so that heel pressure when we got back in >> distorted the skins! > > I've been somewhat perplexed as I've followed this thread, re-read > chapter 37 in the build manual, recalled the factory promotional pics > of a beautiful blue-bottomed specimen, seen pics of Thomas Sherer's 10 > year old bird, and learned of several new Europas with extensive > underside painting in dark tones. In response to concerns raised, some > of the posts have seemed somewhat cavalier on a topic which, if > misunderstood, may have grave consequences. > > If anyone can cite an authoritative reference (no anecdotes please) on > temperature/strength issues of the epoxies used by Europa which > challenges the color/temp chart in chap. 37 I'd love to read it. > > I realize I'm free to paint my "experimental" plane however I choose, > but I'd like to make a "reality-based" decision. > > Fred > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:18 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Return Fuel Flow Compensation query From: "steve v " Thanks for the Pos. feedback ,it looks as though ill be fitting the matronics device as my instrument does not allow for two fuel sender inputs ,and as for the Dynon... ,well , i think that will be fitted on my next project... Steve Vestuti #573 G-CEBV Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:19 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Return Fuel Flow Compensation query From: "steve v " Thanks for the Pos. feedback ,it looks as though ill be fitting the matronics device as my instrument does not allow for two fuel sender inputs ,and as for the Dynon... ,well , i think that will be fitted on my next project... Steve Vestuti #573 G-CEBV Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:45 PM PST US From: Rman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment My condolences for your loss. I know it's hard to not blame whatever presents itself, but consider this. All the gas in the world won't help if it doesn't get to the engine and there are lots of things that can go wrong, including pilot error, that can cause the gas to not get to the engine. There are millions of engines, of this type, in service, mine being one of them. They work as advertised, if maintained properly... Jeff - Baby Blue 306 hrs Finklea wrote: > > Not only did this plane have a full factory tank of fuel, Ken,much to my dismay, also had 1 or 2 aux plastic Evinrude tanks that erupted upon impact leaving nothing but a 1 foot pile of rubble and mostly cremated remains of he and my brother....so this is not a "forgot to fuel" issue! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126190#126190 > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:36 PM PST US From: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Some good news for a change. Alan: Congratulations to you and Kate for Having the same wedding day as my daughter and new son-inlawr! Cheers to both of the new happy couples! Much lighter in the wallet. Do not archive. Brian Skelly Europa XS TriGear #A276 North Texas USA You can see my build photos at: http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:28 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment From: "Finklea" Jos, What was my accusation? Fact, Rotax has had loss of power issues that have been addressed( and some corrected) in the past. I have a close friend that is a Vice Chairman of the NTSB and he is following this closely and providing some vital information. I am not saying that this aircraft (frame or engine) is mal-designed, only that there may be some issues that for YOUR sake that need attention before others are prompted to make that critical last second low altitude decision, right or wrong. I hope that the cause of the loss of power and subsequent turnback is found before anyone else is put into that situation. Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: Europa accident G-HOFC - PFA comment -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, i give up. You can't read or don't understand English. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org Jos, Why do you feel the need to insult me? I am not attacking you OR your airplane, simply concerned about the results of my research. Remember, I am the one at loss here, not you at least yet. I do understand English and can read! I just hope that I dont have to use those skills to read your obituary someday due to a small engine or airframe fault that went uncorrected because you were too arragant to admit that problems can exist .Do you have a vested interest in Rotax or Europa? Your attitude sure lends itself to such. I too feel that pilot error led to this crash but the turnback WAS precipitated by a mechanical malfunction of some sort. This I am sure! Jeff, thanks for your unqualified condolences. I dont feel the need to cast blame here. Ken had flown this plane for 2+ years and as per all accounts was a "10" BUILD and maintained to a T. Yes, stuff happens but there is always a reason for the" stuff" and if that reason can be found and corrected, there is little reason for the same stuff to happen again. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126257#126257 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours. Heat damage From: Fred Klein On Sunday, July 29, 2007, at 03:25 PM, Rman wrote: > The temperature difference in colors on Baby Blue varies less than 5 > degrees F. The darkest color is a light blue (thus the name). Like > Tony said, white or light... Jeff...though I've yet to see it in person, your pix of BB with its gradations which I'd characterize as a light blue very subtle "mist" strikes me as an excellent solution for anyone wanting to add some "chroma" to our otherwise white aircraft...Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.