Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:45 AM - Re: Europa colours /The facts (Raimo Toivio)
2. 09:19 AM - Re: Europa colours /The facts (David Joyce)
3. 09:21 AM - Re: Europa colours /The facts ()
4. 02:12 PM - Re: New 914 won't "kill" on either ignition circuit.... (R.C.Harrison)
5. 02:40 PM - Re: New 914 won't "kill" on either ignition circuit.... (Gilles Thesee)
6. 03:09 PM - Re: Re: Attending Rough River Fly-in... (Paul McAllister)
7. 09:28 PM - Re: Re: Attending Rough River Fly-in... (Gary Leinberger)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Europa colours /The facts |
MessageAll
who are interested about "colour & temp" topic:
couple of days ago I promised to come back after
finding some real scientific facts instead of "I feel so
knowledge" and here we are:
I have today interviewed two (2) experts, one after one,
just to be sure:
1) Professor Timo Kalema, Energy and Process Technique,
Tampere University of Technology, Tampere Finland
2) Professor Reijo Karvinen, Energy and Process Technique,
Tampere University of Technology, Tampere Finland
http://www.tut.fi/public/
I strictly point both of these gentlemen represents the highest thermal
knowledge:
They BOTH stated as follows:
- direct from the sun the surfaces (Europa upper parts) get SOLAR
RADIATION
- the wave lenght is about 1 um
- the colour of the surface is essential because of the thermal
absorbtion
- Europas should be painted white or at least light coloured
- that is even more important what nearer equator you are
- from the ground the surfaces (down side parts) get only THERMAL
RADIATION
- the wave lenght is about 10-100 um (depending the ground material)
- the colour of the (plane dn side=B4 s) surface is nothing to do w
absobtion of that radiation
- easier observation ratio method:
" go to the shadow and have a white shirt or black shirt on and you
still feel same temperature"
I make the point even clearer: two Europas, one has white coloured down
side wings
and other one has black coloured down side wings. Both has light
coloured upper sides.
Both are standing on the hot black asphalt side by side. If measured the
temperature from
the down side surface, it will be exactly same. That is proved and a
fact - I am sorry !!!
Colour is important only when DIRECT sun solar radiation, and nothing to
do with thermal radiation.
For me personally it is interesting because half of my wings=B4 down
sides are light and
half of them are dark. You can be sure I am a happy man today - right
choosing makes
always good for builder - especially aviation safety questions.
Please notice couple of important things:
1) I have dark colour only underside, not sides or upper side (except
letters, that=B4s bad).
2) I do not recommend anybody to paint their Europa uppersides or even
sides
anything but white or very light (because of solar radiation). Otherwise
be careful.
3) If you like to paint ONLY underside dark, you can do it where ever
you live and fly,
even in the equator (please do not fly much uppside down!).
4) where ever you live and keep your plane out, be careful when on the
asphalt
because or thermal radiation (nothing to do w plane=B4s colour, white or
black). If a hot
day, move it away to the hangar or at least to the grass surface. That
is good
because heat energy makes water in plants to steam and so it is cooler.
5) If you paint it only white, you can forget this topic but please
notice point 4!
Painting only white is easier to paint and maintain and also cheeper to
paint
and maintain but so boring. If it=B4s look means nothing, please paint
white.
Otherwise you have to think and use your own brains and that is very
hard.
Look those Chinese /North Korean girls; all have or used to have
similar green uniform. Sexy?
Karel; this is not only for you but I have done my best to provoke some
of you.
Please do not take personally - your golden strips are extremely
beautiful
(those professors told me also some facts about high price heat
reflecting
dark metallic colours, I am sure your strips are safe and you can fly
peace
in your heart, also in a sunny day).
I hardly can wait comments.
Me personally - will not continue this topic any more. I was right as
usually
and that is enough for me. What is the most important thing - It is not
necessary to repaint my plane. If I would paint it again, I did like to
do same.
Tim: N914XS suffered case 4 - hot asphalt - not a colour relative
problem.
Joyce: you wrote "The heat radiating from the ground to the underside of
the
plane was enough to soften it, so that heel pressure when we got back in
distorted the skins!
It is worth taking the skin colour and heating possibilities
seriously! Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ"
Now you can be sure: your Europa=B4s down side colour had nothing to do
with
your problems in Morocco. White colour - same situation. The fact is:
you kept
your plane in too hot conditions. Do not fly to hot hell by Europa and
if you do so,
keep it in hangar or in good shadow!
Gentlemen, you can be sure I will take my head of from hot ass now.
And continue to fly my Europa with "dark underside colour"!
This colour topic was a good example of "trust only yourself and your
senses".
And some individuals out there - who have kindly supported me - just
thanks.
Raimo
====
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, The Experimental of The Year (w DARK
UNDERSIDE)
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, totally restored 2006-2007
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: James
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 4:45 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours
Anyone that has a dark color on their plane as a secondary color and
not a stripe, can joke all they want. I saw what went into fixing
N914XS and I can tell you it wasn't funny knowing I had been flying acro
in an airplane that could have at the least had the power plant hanging
by half the firewall halfway thru a loop, or at the worst losing the
firewall forward. You can't reinvent TG. But you CAN reflow epoxy at
elevated temps. At about 200F aeropoxy WILL start to soften. You CAN
remove redux with a hairdryer. And a dark painted composite plane WILL
deform sooner or later.
If you think it works on you're aircraft that's fine, but don't go
recommending it to somebody else.
If you cant keep you're hand on it in the sun then it's too hot.
I can't believe so many are willing to kick the devil in the gonads.
Jim T.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo
Toivio
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:15 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours
Dear Karel,
Yes in Suomi we like to reinvent things and make them better.
Like a phone and the result is history like www.nokia.com
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Europa colours /The facts |
Raimo, thank you for that. I guess the gist of my message that sun derived
heat can be enough to make the structure go soft, even when it is only
second hand heat that has been absorbed by a dark surface. I am certainly
planning to avoid parking on hot tarmac if at all possible. Regards, David
Joyce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours /The facts
MessageAll
who are interested about "colour & temp" topic:
couple of days ago I promised to come back after
finding some real scientific facts instead of "I feel so
knowledge" and here we are:
I have today interviewed two (2) experts, one after one,
just to be sure:
1) Professor Timo Kalema, Energy and Process Technique,
Tampere University of Technology, Tampere Finland
2) Professor Reijo Karvinen, Energy and Process Technique,
Tampere University of Technology, Tampere Finland
http://www.tut.fi/public/
I strictly point both of these gentlemen represents the highest thermal
knowledge:
They BOTH stated as follows:
- direct from the sun the surfaces (Europa upper parts) get SOLAR RADIATION
- the wave lenght is about 1 um
- the colour of the surface is essential because of the thermal absorbtion
- Europas should be painted white or at least light coloured
- that is even more important what nearer equator you are
- from the ground the surfaces (down side parts) get only THERMAL
RADIATION
- the wave lenght is about 10-100 um (depending the ground material)
- the colour of the (plane dn side s) surface is nothing to do w absobtion
of that radiation
- easier observation ratio method:
" go to the shadow and have a white shirt or black shirt on and you still
feel same temperature"
I make the point even clearer: two Europas, one has white coloured down side
wings
and other one has black coloured down side wings. Both has light coloured
upper sides.
Both are standing on the hot black asphalt side by side. If measured the
temperature from
the down side surface, it will be exactly same. That is proved and a fact -
I am sorry !!!
Colour is important only when DIRECT sun solar radiation, and nothing to do
with thermal radiation.
For me personally it is interesting because half of my wings down sides are
light and
half of them are dark. You can be sure I am a happy man today - right
choosing makes
always good for builder - especially aviation safety questions.
Please notice couple of important things:
1) I have dark colour only underside, not sides or upper side (except
letters, thats bad).
2) I do not recommend anybody to paint their Europa uppersides or even sides
anything but white or very light (because of solar radiation). Otherwise be
careful.
3) If you like to paint ONLY underside dark, you can do it where ever you
live and fly,
even in the equator (please do not fly much uppside down!).
4) where ever you live and keep your plane out, be careful when on the
asphalt
because or thermal radiation (nothing to do w planes colour, white or
black). If a hot
day, move it away to the hangar or at least to the grass surface. That is
good
because heat energy makes water in plants to steam and so it is cooler.
5) If you paint it only white, you can forget this topic but please notice
point 4!
Painting only white is easier to paint and maintain and also cheeper to
paint
and maintain but so boring. If its look means nothing, please paint white.
Otherwise you have to think and use your own brains and that is very hard.
Look those Chinese /North Korean girls; all have or used to have
similar green uniform. Sexy?
Karel; this is not only for you but I have done my best to provoke some of
you.
Please do not take personally - your golden strips are extremely beautiful
(those professors told me also some facts about high price heat reflecting
dark metallic colours, I am sure your strips are safe and you can fly peace
in your heart, also in a sunny day).
I hardly can wait comments.
Me personally - will not continue this topic any more. I was right as
usually
and that is enough for me. What is the most important thing - It is not
necessary to repaint my plane. If I would paint it again, I did like to do
same.
Tim: N914XS suffered case 4 - hot asphalt - not a colour relative problem.
Joyce: you wrote "The heat radiating from the ground to the underside of the
plane was enough to soften it, so that heel pressure when we got back in
distorted the skins!
It is worth taking the skin colour and heating possibilities
seriously! Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ"
Now you can be sure: your Europas down side colour had nothing to do with
your problems in Morocco. White colour - same situation. The fact is: you
kept
your plane in too hot conditions. Do not fly to hot hell by Europa and if
you do so,
keep it in hangar or in good shadow!
Gentlemen, you can be sure I will take my head of from hot ass now.
And continue to fly my Europa with "dark underside colour"!
This colour topic was a good example of "trust only yourself and your
senses".
And some individuals out there - who have kindly supported me - just thanks.
Raimo
====
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, The Experimental of The Year (w DARK UNDERSIDE)
OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, totally restored 2006-2007
OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded)
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: James
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 4:45 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours
Anyone that has a dark color on their plane as a secondary color and not a
stripe, can joke all they want. I saw what went into fixing N914XS and I
can tell you it wasn't funny knowing I had been flying acro in an airplane
that could have at the least had the power plant hanging by half the
firewall halfway thru a loop, or at the worst losing the firewall forward.
You can't reinvent TG. But you CAN reflow epoxy at elevated temps. At
about 200F aeropoxy WILL start to soften. You CAN remove redux with a
hairdryer. And a dark painted composite plane WILL deform sooner or later.
If you think it works on you're aircraft that's fine, but don't go
recommending it to somebody else.
If you cant keep you're hand on it in the sun then it's too hot.
I can't believe so many are willing to kick the devil in the gonads.
Jim T.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:15 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours
Dear Karel,
Yes in Suomi we like to reinvent things and make them better.
Like a phone and the result is history like www.nokia.com
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Europa colours /The facts |
Hello Raimo
Thank you for your posting on "colour & temp".
I think you are missing vital consideration.
What about a surface that reflects a reasonable amount like like cement
runways and parking areas?
I am a hot air balloonist. My last homebuilt is a huge 8 ball, 95,036
cubic feet (majority is black). When there is good solar energy around, I
can take a person in a harness attached to the envelope and fly them solar
powered. It works far better on a white runway compared to black taxiway.
I attribute this to reflection to lower part of balloon in addition to
direct solar.
I expect reflection from a cement surface can heat lower of Europa less
whenm it is white than dark.
The very best conditions I have had for solar flight was on a frozen lake
covered with snow when it was -20F. This is in part to do with thick air,
but amount of heat generated to dark was very impressive. It was dead calm
and an awful lot of cold clothes came off, and packing away was mini
summertime.
If calm wind and strong sun reflecting off snow, it would be well advised
to measure underside of dark composite, I have feeling it could surprise
you.
Ron Parigoris
Message 4
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Subject: | New 914 won't "kill" on either ignition circuit.... |
Hi! Gilles,Jerry,Ron,David,Ivor, Neville etc.
Just a line to confirm that my connection KILL wires were in fact
correct ......wait for it ........ but in the incorrect connector.
Clearly working from PHOTO COPIES DOESN'T SUIT ME ! Oil out of the
exhaust also seems to have cleared.
Gilles ...I trust you won't tell the Jabiru list of my trials and
tribulations !
I'm most obliged to those who made efforts to assist, Ivor with help
over the computer connections for throttle calibration and to Trevor
Pond for the kind help over the loan of his trailer.
The engine is now running AOK it has balanced carbs, FUEL FLOW TESTS are
all COMPLETED. Hope to get the placarding done, Mod 74 and have the
Flight Test permit available soonest.
Regards to all.
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: 02 August 2007 22:41
Subject: Re: Europa-List: New 914 won't "kill" on either ignition
circuit....
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
R.C.Harrison a crit :
<ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
> BTW They are no longer bullets but
> long skinny thin spades. "No Kill" Prevails .....Me'thinks why the
> change ?
Bob and all,
My opinion is that the bullet connectors are just good enough for
automobiles and lawn mowers.
But the latest manuals hardly mention the change. Hence the pictures at
http://contrails.free.fr/engine_rotax_mag_connect_en.php
One must be careful when crimping the small open barrel terminals, as it
is easy to crimp on the insulation instead of the copper. Of course you
may already have checked and re-checked, but did you extract the kill
terminals from the connector to inspect the crimp and test continuity,
and make sure they are inserted the correct way round ?
Also inserting a pin direct in the module connector to connect to ground
may allow to rule out the kill switch, wire and crimp.
Also are the kill wires and module ground terminals connected at the
same place on the firewall (ground stud, forest of tabs, etc) ?
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: New 914 won't "kill" on either ignition circuit.... |
R.C.Harrison a crit :
> Gilles ...I trust you won't tell the Jabiru list of my trials and
> tribulations !
>
Bob,
I promise ;-)
Glad to hear you got things sorted out.
BTW, just before receiving your message I noticed that I was pointing at
the wrong connector in one of my pictures. I'm changing the picture
right away.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
PS : Any of you gentlemen happen to cross the Channel ? Why not call at
St Valery (LFOS, between Dieppe and Le Havre) where I am presently
giving flight lessons until the end of August ? Restaurant on the field
or within walking distance, no landing fee.
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Attending Rough River Fly-in... |
1. Jeff Behrnes 225 773-9671 cell N55XS Baby Blue Tri-gear
2. Steve & Bobbi Crimm 678-461-7957 Home N42AH (Tentative) Mono
3. Jeff Roberts 615-406-8651 Cell N128LJ Gold Rush Tri-Gear
4. Andrew Sarangan 937-830-1610 arriving in a Zodiac.
5. Troy & Donna Maynor 828-778-7702 cell. Driving in Wed.PM till Sat
6. Jim & Heather Butcher, 269-599-0122 cell
7. Chuck & Marilyn Rhoads 502-410-1357 Geo-Metro powered Tri-gear
8. Paul McAllister 262 993 4483 cell. N378PJ Mono
9. Bud Yerly Cell 813 244-8354 Driving in as N12AY will be getting Mod 52
and 74.
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Attending Rough River Fly-in... |
I'll be there -
Gary Leinberger
A237
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Paul
McAllister
Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 6:08 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Attending Rough River Fly-in...
1. Jeff Behrnes 225 773-9671 cell N55XS Baby Blue Tri-gear
2. Steve & Bobbi Crimm 678-461-7957 Home N42AH (Tentative) Mono
3. Jeff Roberts 615-406-8651 Cell N128LJ Gold Rush Tri-Gear
4. Andrew Sarangan 937-830-1610 arriving in a Zodiac.
5. Troy & Donna Maynor 828-778-7702 cell. Driving in Wed.PM till Sat
6. Jim & Heather Butcher, 269-599-0122 cell
7. Chuck & Marilyn Rhoads 502-410-1357 Geo-Metro powered Tri-gear
8. Paul McAllister 262 993 4483 cell. N378PJ Mono
9. Bud Yerly Cell 813 244-8354 Driving in as N12AY will be getting Mod
52 and 74.
10. Gary Leinberger - flying in with Mooney Friday to Monday -
717-682-9726
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