---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/03/07: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:45 AM - Re: Europa colours /The facts (Raimo Toivio) 2. 09:19 AM - Re: Europa colours /The facts (David Joyce) 3. 09:21 AM - Re: Europa colours /The facts () 4. 02:12 PM - Re: New 914 won't "kill" on either ignition circuit.... (R.C.Harrison) 5. 02:40 PM - Re: New 914 won't "kill" on either ignition circuit.... (Gilles Thesee) 6. 03:09 PM - Re: Re: Attending Rough River Fly-in... (Paul McAllister) 7. 09:28 PM - Re: Re: Attending Rough River Fly-in... (Gary Leinberger) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:32 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours /The facts MessageAll who are interested about "colour & temp" topic: couple of days ago I promised to come back after finding some real scientific facts instead of "I feel so knowledge" and here we are: I have today interviewed two (2) experts, one after one, just to be sure: 1) Professor Timo Kalema, Energy and Process Technique, Tampere University of Technology, Tampere Finland 2) Professor Reijo Karvinen, Energy and Process Technique, Tampere University of Technology, Tampere Finland http://www.tut.fi/public/ I strictly point both of these gentlemen represents the highest thermal knowledge: They BOTH stated as follows: - direct from the sun the surfaces (Europa upper parts) get SOLAR RADIATION - the wave lenght is about 1 um - the colour of the surface is essential because of the thermal absorbtion - Europas should be painted white or at least light coloured - that is even more important what nearer equator you are - from the ground the surfaces (down side parts) get only THERMAL RADIATION - the wave lenght is about 10-100 um (depending the ground material) - the colour of the (plane dn side=B4 s) surface is nothing to do w absobtion of that radiation - easier observation ratio method: " go to the shadow and have a white shirt or black shirt on and you still feel same temperature" I make the point even clearer: two Europas, one has white coloured down side wings and other one has black coloured down side wings. Both has light coloured upper sides. Both are standing on the hot black asphalt side by side. If measured the temperature from the down side surface, it will be exactly same. That is proved and a fact - I am sorry !!! Colour is important only when DIRECT sun solar radiation, and nothing to do with thermal radiation. For me personally it is interesting because half of my wings=B4 down sides are light and half of them are dark. You can be sure I am a happy man today - right choosing makes always good for builder - especially aviation safety questions. Please notice couple of important things: 1) I have dark colour only underside, not sides or upper side (except letters, that=B4s bad). 2) I do not recommend anybody to paint their Europa uppersides or even sides anything but white or very light (because of solar radiation). Otherwise be careful. 3) If you like to paint ONLY underside dark, you can do it where ever you live and fly, even in the equator (please do not fly much uppside down!). 4) where ever you live and keep your plane out, be careful when on the asphalt because or thermal radiation (nothing to do w plane=B4s colour, white or black). If a hot day, move it away to the hangar or at least to the grass surface. That is good because heat energy makes water in plants to steam and so it is cooler. 5) If you paint it only white, you can forget this topic but please notice point 4! Painting only white is easier to paint and maintain and also cheeper to paint and maintain but so boring. If it=B4s look means nothing, please paint white. Otherwise you have to think and use your own brains and that is very hard. Look those Chinese /North Korean girls; all have or used to have similar green uniform. Sexy? Karel; this is not only for you but I have done my best to provoke some of you. Please do not take personally - your golden strips are extremely beautiful (those professors told me also some facts about high price heat reflecting dark metallic colours, I am sure your strips are safe and you can fly peace in your heart, also in a sunny day). I hardly can wait comments. Me personally - will not continue this topic any more. I was right as usually and that is enough for me. What is the most important thing - It is not necessary to repaint my plane. If I would paint it again, I did like to do same. Tim: N914XS suffered case 4 - hot asphalt - not a colour relative problem. Joyce: you wrote "The heat radiating from the ground to the underside of the plane was enough to soften it, so that heel pressure when we got back in distorted the skins! It is worth taking the skin colour and heating possibilities seriously! Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ" Now you can be sure: your Europa=B4s down side colour had nothing to do with your problems in Morocco. White colour - same situation. The fact is: you kept your plane in too hot conditions. Do not fly to hot hell by Europa and if you do so, keep it in hangar or in good shadow! Gentlemen, you can be sure I will take my head of from hot ass now. And continue to fly my Europa with "dark underside colour"! This colour topic was a good example of "trust only yourself and your senses". And some individuals out there - who have kindly supported me - just thanks. Raimo ==== Raimo M W Toivio OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, The Experimental of The Year (w DARK UNDERSIDE) OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, totally restored 2006-2007 OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded) 37500 Lempaala Finland tel + 358 3 3753 777 fax + 358 3 3753 100 gsm + 358 40 590 1450 raimo.toivio@rwm.fi www.rwm.fi ----- Original Message ----- From: James To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours Anyone that has a dark color on their plane as a secondary color and not a stripe, can joke all they want. I saw what went into fixing N914XS and I can tell you it wasn't funny knowing I had been flying acro in an airplane that could have at the least had the power plant hanging by half the firewall halfway thru a loop, or at the worst losing the firewall forward. You can't reinvent TG. But you CAN reflow epoxy at elevated temps. At about 200F aeropoxy WILL start to soften. You CAN remove redux with a hairdryer. And a dark painted composite plane WILL deform sooner or later. If you think it works on you're aircraft that's fine, but don't go recommending it to somebody else. If you cant keep you're hand on it in the sun then it's too hot. I can't believe so many are willing to kick the devil in the gonads. Jim T. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:15 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Dear Karel, Yes in Suomi we like to reinvent things and make them better. Like a phone and the result is history like www.nokia.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:50 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours /The facts Raimo, thank you for that. I guess the gist of my message that sun derived heat can be enough to make the structure go soft, even when it is only second hand heat that has been absorbed by a dark surface. I am certainly planning to avoid parking on hot tarmac if at all possible. Regards, David Joyce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raimo Toivio" Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 1:50 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours /The facts MessageAll who are interested about "colour & temp" topic: couple of days ago I promised to come back after finding some real scientific facts instead of "I feel so knowledge" and here we are: I have today interviewed two (2) experts, one after one, just to be sure: 1) Professor Timo Kalema, Energy and Process Technique, Tampere University of Technology, Tampere Finland 2) Professor Reijo Karvinen, Energy and Process Technique, Tampere University of Technology, Tampere Finland http://www.tut.fi/public/ I strictly point both of these gentlemen represents the highest thermal knowledge: They BOTH stated as follows: - direct from the sun the surfaces (Europa upper parts) get SOLAR RADIATION - the wave lenght is about 1 um - the colour of the surface is essential because of the thermal absorbtion - Europas should be painted white or at least light coloured - that is even more important what nearer equator you are - from the ground the surfaces (down side parts) get only THERMAL RADIATION - the wave lenght is about 10-100 um (depending the ground material) - the colour of the (plane dn side s) surface is nothing to do w absobtion of that radiation - easier observation ratio method: " go to the shadow and have a white shirt or black shirt on and you still feel same temperature" I make the point even clearer: two Europas, one has white coloured down side wings and other one has black coloured down side wings. Both has light coloured upper sides. Both are standing on the hot black asphalt side by side. If measured the temperature from the down side surface, it will be exactly same. That is proved and a fact - I am sorry !!! Colour is important only when DIRECT sun solar radiation, and nothing to do with thermal radiation. For me personally it is interesting because half of my wings down sides are light and half of them are dark. You can be sure I am a happy man today - right choosing makes always good for builder - especially aviation safety questions. Please notice couple of important things: 1) I have dark colour only underside, not sides or upper side (except letters, thats bad). 2) I do not recommend anybody to paint their Europa uppersides or even sides anything but white or very light (because of solar radiation). Otherwise be careful. 3) If you like to paint ONLY underside dark, you can do it where ever you live and fly, even in the equator (please do not fly much uppside down!). 4) where ever you live and keep your plane out, be careful when on the asphalt because or thermal radiation (nothing to do w planes colour, white or black). If a hot day, move it away to the hangar or at least to the grass surface. That is good because heat energy makes water in plants to steam and so it is cooler. 5) If you paint it only white, you can forget this topic but please notice point 4! Painting only white is easier to paint and maintain and also cheeper to paint and maintain but so boring. If its look means nothing, please paint white. Otherwise you have to think and use your own brains and that is very hard. Look those Chinese /North Korean girls; all have or used to have similar green uniform. Sexy? Karel; this is not only for you but I have done my best to provoke some of you. Please do not take personally - your golden strips are extremely beautiful (those professors told me also some facts about high price heat reflecting dark metallic colours, I am sure your strips are safe and you can fly peace in your heart, also in a sunny day). I hardly can wait comments. Me personally - will not continue this topic any more. I was right as usually and that is enough for me. What is the most important thing - It is not necessary to repaint my plane. If I would paint it again, I did like to do same. Tim: N914XS suffered case 4 - hot asphalt - not a colour relative problem. Joyce: you wrote "The heat radiating from the ground to the underside of the plane was enough to soften it, so that heel pressure when we got back in distorted the skins! It is worth taking the skin colour and heating possibilities seriously! Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ" Now you can be sure: your Europas down side colour had nothing to do with your problems in Morocco. White colour - same situation. The fact is: you kept your plane in too hot conditions. Do not fly to hot hell by Europa and if you do so, keep it in hangar or in good shadow! Gentlemen, you can be sure I will take my head of from hot ass now. And continue to fly my Europa with "dark underside colour"! This colour topic was a good example of "trust only yourself and your senses". And some individuals out there - who have kindly supported me - just thanks. Raimo ==== Raimo M W Toivio OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, The Experimental of The Year (w DARK UNDERSIDE) OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk, totally restored 2006-2007 OH-BLL Beechcraft C45, w radial engines (grounded) 37500 Lempaala Finland tel + 358 3 3753 777 fax + 358 3 3753 100 gsm + 358 40 590 1450 raimo.toivio@rwm.fi www.rwm.fi ----- Original Message ----- From: James To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa colours Anyone that has a dark color on their plane as a secondary color and not a stripe, can joke all they want. I saw what went into fixing N914XS and I can tell you it wasn't funny knowing I had been flying acro in an airplane that could have at the least had the power plant hanging by half the firewall halfway thru a loop, or at the worst losing the firewall forward. You can't reinvent TG. But you CAN reflow epoxy at elevated temps. At about 200F aeropoxy WILL start to soften. You CAN remove redux with a hairdryer. And a dark painted composite plane WILL deform sooner or later. If you think it works on you're aircraft that's fine, but don't go recommending it to somebody else. If you cant keep you're hand on it in the sun then it's too hot. I can't believe so many are willing to kick the devil in the gonads. Jim T. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:15 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours Dear Karel, Yes in Suomi we like to reinvent things and make them better. Like a phone and the result is history like www.nokia.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa colours /The facts From: Hello Raimo Thank you for your posting on "colour & temp". I think you are missing vital consideration. What about a surface that reflects a reasonable amount like like cement runways and parking areas? I am a hot air balloonist. My last homebuilt is a huge 8 ball, 95,036 cubic feet (majority is black). When there is good solar energy around, I can take a person in a harness attached to the envelope and fly them solar powered. It works far better on a white runway compared to black taxiway. I attribute this to reflection to lower part of balloon in addition to direct solar. I expect reflection from a cement surface can heat lower of Europa less whenm it is white than dark. The very best conditions I have had for solar flight was on a frozen lake covered with snow when it was -20F. This is in part to do with thick air, but amount of heat generated to dark was very impressive. It was dead calm and an awful lot of cold clothes came off, and packing away was mini summertime. If calm wind and strong sun reflecting off snow, it would be well advised to measure underside of dark composite, I have feeling it could surprise you. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:26 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: New 914 won't "kill" on either ignition circuit.... Hi! Gilles,Jerry,Ron,David,Ivor, Neville etc. Just a line to confirm that my connection KILL wires were in fact correct ......wait for it ........ but in the incorrect connector. Clearly working from PHOTO COPIES DOESN'T SUIT ME ! Oil out of the exhaust also seems to have cleared. Gilles ...I trust you won't tell the Jabiru list of my trials and tribulations ! I'm most obliged to those who made efforts to assist, Ivor with help over the computer connections for throttle calibration and to Trevor Pond for the kind help over the loan of his trailer. The engine is now running AOK it has balanced carbs, FUEL FLOW TESTS are all COMPLETED. Hope to get the placarding done, Mod 74 and have the Flight Test permit available soonest. Regards to all. Bob Harrison G-PTAG Do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee Sent: 02 August 2007 22:41 Subject: Re: Europa-List: New 914 won't "kill" on either ignition circuit.... R.C.Harrison a crit : > BTW They are no longer bullets but > long skinny thin spades. "No Kill" Prevails .....Me'thinks why the > change ? Bob and all, My opinion is that the bullet connectors are just good enough for automobiles and lawn mowers. But the latest manuals hardly mention the change. Hence the pictures at http://contrails.free.fr/engine_rotax_mag_connect_en.php One must be careful when crimping the small open barrel terminals, as it is easy to crimp on the insulation instead of the copper. Of course you may already have checked and re-checked, but did you extract the kill terminals from the connector to inspect the crimp and test continuity, and make sure they are inserted the correct way round ? Also inserting a pin direct in the module connector to connect to ground may allow to rule out the kill switch, wire and crimp. Also are the kill wires and module ground terminals connected at the same place on the firewall (ground stud, forest of tabs, etc) ? Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:40:50 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: New 914 won't "kill" on either ignition circuit.... R.C.Harrison a crit : > Gilles ...I trust you won't tell the Jabiru list of my trials and > tribulations ! > Bob, I promise ;-) Glad to hear you got things sorted out. BTW, just before receiving your message I noticed that I was pointing at the wrong connector in one of my pictures. I'm changing the picture right away. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr PS : Any of you gentlemen happen to cross the Channel ? Why not call at St Valery (LFOS, between Dieppe and Le Havre) where I am presently giving flight lessons until the end of August ? Restaurant on the field or within walking distance, no landing fee. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:38 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Attending Rough River Fly-in... 1. Jeff Behrnes 225 773-9671 cell N55XS Baby Blue Tri-gear 2. Steve & Bobbi Crimm 678-461-7957 Home N42AH (Tentative) Mono 3. Jeff Roberts 615-406-8651 Cell N128LJ Gold Rush Tri-Gear 4. Andrew Sarangan 937-830-1610 arriving in a Zodiac. 5. Troy & Donna Maynor 828-778-7702 cell. Driving in Wed.PM till Sat 6. Jim & Heather Butcher, 269-599-0122 cell 7. Chuck & Marilyn Rhoads 502-410-1357 Geo-Metro powered Tri-gear 8. Paul McAllister 262 993 4483 cell. N378PJ Mono 9. Bud Yerly Cell 813 244-8354 Driving in as N12AY will be getting Mod 52 and 74. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:18 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Attending Rough River Fly-in... From: "Gary Leinberger" I'll be there - Gary Leinberger A237 ________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Paul McAllister Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 6:08 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Attending Rough River Fly-in... 1. Jeff Behrnes 225 773-9671 cell N55XS Baby Blue Tri-gear 2. Steve & Bobbi Crimm 678-461-7957 Home N42AH (Tentative) Mono 3. Jeff Roberts 615-406-8651 Cell N128LJ Gold Rush Tri-Gear 4. Andrew Sarangan 937-830-1610 arriving in a Zodiac. 5. Troy & Donna Maynor 828-778-7702 cell. Driving in Wed.PM till Sat 6. Jim & Heather Butcher, 269-599-0122 cell 7. Chuck & Marilyn Rhoads 502-410-1357 Geo-Metro powered Tri-gear 8. Paul McAllister 262 993 4483 cell. N378PJ Mono 9. Bud Yerly Cell 813 244-8354 Driving in as N12AY will be getting Mod 52 and 74. 10. Gary Leinberger - flying in with Mooney Friday to Monday - 717-682-9726 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.