---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/14/07: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:34 AM - Re: Down for the count - fuel tank leak (Bill and Sue) 2. 12:58 AM - Re: Anyone have carb ice with intercooled 914? (Gilles Thesee) 3. 03:07 AM - Re: Down for the count - fuel tank leak (Pete Lawless) 4. 03:40 AM - Re: Anyone have carb ice with intercooled 914? (Trevpond@aol.com) 5. 04:19 AM - Re: Down for the count - fuel tank leak (R.C.Harrison) 6. 04:26 AM - Re: Anyone have carb ice with intercooled 914? (R.C.Harrison) 7. 04:33 AM - Re: Anyone have carb ice with intercooled 914? (Trevpond@aol.com) 8. 09:47 AM - Re: Down for the count - fuel tank leak (jim Brown) 9. 10:32 AM - Air Master Brushes (Jeff B) 10. 11:22 AM - Re: Air Master Brushes (Tom Friedland) 11. 11:43 AM - Re: Air Master Brushes (Jeff B) 12. 01:42 PM - Re: Down for the count - fuel tank leak (Bill and Sue) 13. 05:21 PM - Re: Down for the count - fuel tank leak (ALAN YERLY) 14. 10:43 PM - Re: Down for the count - fuel tank leak (Alan Burrows) 15. 11:33 PM - Re: Last of the Summer Wine (A B Milne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:41 AM PST US From: Bill and Sue Subject: Re: Europa-List: Down for the count - fuel tank leak Steve, I had to replace my tank after an incident with a cow! It was not as nearly as bad as I thought it would be. ( The repair, not hitting the cow!) I removed the tank by cutting the top off the cockpit module about 20mm below the top edge. The tank was stuck hard to the fibreglass straps that hold it in place so I just cut it to pieces in place and took it out bit by bit, this was a bit tedious but did not present any problems. I prepared the new tank ready so that when I put it in it would be a one time job only with no in and out trials. To put the tank in I had to spread the fuselage enough for it to slip in on to the original support lay-ups and check that it was in the correct position. When the tank looked to be positioned correctly and not fouling any controls I then lifted it as high as possible and managed to get a redux - flox mix on to the brackets sufficient to hold the tank in place. The top of the cockpit module was replaced using the normal glass splicing techniques. I also increased the width of the spacers that prevent the tank from expanding forward. I was concerned that the amount it moved when full of fuel could cause cracking. This all happened 500 hrs ago and it has never shown any defect. Rgds Mono XS 914 Airmaster Bill Sisley Steve Hagar wrote: > > After having the aircraft down for awhile with the fuel tank drained > to avoid having stale gas present I noted a leak upon gassing it up. > I was going to bring it over to Phoenix Composites to have the prop > rebalanced. It looked like it was coming from the lower feed boss > where the big piece of short hose is clamped on. I was in a hurry and > going on vacation in 2 days for a few weeks. I didn't want to deal > with it then so re-drained the tank to re-address it later. > > Upon re-gassing it up upon return the gas started flowing out at a > rate of about a third as fast as I was pouring it in! Upon inspection > it was determined that it was coming from a crack in the tank near the > bottom of the saddle section reserve side where a fiberglass layup > support is attached. It appears that the strapping has acted as a > stress raiser along with expansion and contraction in the AZ heat. > > In any case it looks like it may have to be sawzall time for the top > of the cockpit module for repair. Has anyone gone through a repair to > a fuel tank an a fully built aircraft? What was the routine? I am > not looking forward to this and am possibly considering just parting > the aircraft out. I could have been out flying and pumped all the > fuel out of the reserve return side in a matter of about 10 minutes > if I didn't light it off. > > Feed back appreciated > > Steve Hagar > A143 > Mesa AZ > 914 > Airmaster > > > Steve Hagar > hagargs@earthlink.net > > * > > > * > > > __________ NOD32 2458 (20070813) Information __________ > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:58:28 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone have carb ice with intercooled 914? rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us a crit : > Has anyone ever experianced carb ice on a intercooled 914? > > See attached PDF chapter 18. > > Rotax has updated website: > Ron and all, Never experienced carb ice on the Rotax 914. French dealer Avirex says it is very unlikely. In our tightly cowled setup the carbs run really warm so the probability is low. But in other airplanes things may be different. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:07:48 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Down for the count - fuel tank leak Bill Tell all what did you do to the cow that caused the fuel tank to leak? Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill and Sue Sent: 14 August 2007 08:33 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Down for the count - fuel tank leak Steve, I had to replace my tank after an incident with a cow! It was not as nearly as bad as I thought it would be. ( The repair, not hitting the cow!) I removed the tank by cutting the top off the cockpit module about 20mm below the top edge. The tank was stuck hard to the fibreglass straps that hold it in place so I just cut it to pieces in place and took it out bit by bit, this was a bit tedious but did not present any problems. I prepared the new tank ready so that when I put it in it would be a one time job only with no in and out trials. To put the tank in I had to spread the fuselage enough for it to slip in on to the original support lay-ups and check that it was in the correct position. When the tank looked to be positioned correctly and not fouling any controls I then lifted it as high as possible and managed to get a redux - flox mix on to the brackets sufficient to hold the tank in place. The top of the cockpit module was replaced using the normal glass splicing techniques. I also increased the width of the spacers that prevent the tank from expanding forward. I was concerned that the amount it moved when full of fuel could cause cracking. This all happened 500 hrs ago and it has never shown any defect. Rgds Mono XS 914 Airmaster Bill Sisley Steve Hagar wrote: After having the aircraft down for awhile with the fuel tank drained to avoid having stale gas present I noted a leak upon gassing it up. I was going to bring it over to Phoenix Composites to have the prop rebalanced. It looked like it was coming from the lower feed boss where the big piece of short hose is clamped on. I was in a hurry and going on vacation in 2 days for a few weeks. I didn't want to deal with it then so re-drained the tank to re-address it later. Upon re-gassing it up upon return the gas started flowing out at a rate of about a third as fast as I was pouring it in! Upon inspection it was determined that it was coming from a crack in the tank near the bottom of the saddle section reserve side where a fiberglass layup support is attached. It appears that the strapping has acted as a stress raiser along with expansion and contraction in the AZ heat. In any case it looks like it may have to be sawzall time for the top of the cockpit module for repair. Has anyone gone through a repair to a fuel tank an a fully built aircraft? What was the routine? I am not looking forward to this and am possibly considering just parting the aircraft out. I could have been out flying and pumped all the fuel out of the reserve return side in a matter of about 10 minutes if I didn't light it off. Feed back appreciated Steve Hagar A143 Mesa AZ 914 Airmaster Steve Hagar hagargs@earthlink.net __________ NOD32 2458 (20070813) Information __________ -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:13 AM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone have carb ice with intercooled 914? Hi Jim, At 33"mp and 5300rpm, what is your fuel usage? Trev Pond G-LINN ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:03 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Down for the count - fuel tank leak He vowed to never have her as a passenger again ! Joke ..Not intended that it would be Sue! D0 not archive. Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 14 August 2007 11:06 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Down for the count - fuel tank leak Bill Tell all what did you do to the cow that caused the fuel tank to leak? Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill and Sue Sent: 14 August 2007 08:33 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Down for the count - fuel tank leak Steve, I had to replace my tank after an incident with a cow! It was not as nearly as bad as I thought it would be. ( The repair, not hitting the cow!) I removed the tank by cutting the top off the cockpit module about 20mm below the top edge. The tank was stuck hard to the fibreglass straps that hold it in place so I just cut it to pieces in place and took it out bit by bit, this was a bit tedious but did not present any problems. I prepared the new tank ready so that when I put it in it would be a one time job only with no in and out trials. To put the tank in I had to spread the fuselage enough for it to slip in on to the original support lay-ups and check that it was in the correct position. When the tank looked to be positioned correctly and not fouling any controls I then lifted it as high as possible and managed to get a redux - flox mix on to the brackets sufficient to hold the tank in place. The top of the cockpit module was replaced using the normal glass splicing techniques. I also increased the width of the spacers that prevent the tank from expanding forward. I was concerned that the amount it moved when full of fuel could cause cracking. This all happened 500 hrs ago and it has never shown any defect. Rgds Mono XS 914 Airmaster Bill Sisley Steve Hagar wrote: After having the aircraft down for awhile with the fuel tank drained to avoid having stale gas present I noted a leak upon gassing it up. I was going to bring it over to Phoenix Composites to have the prop rebalanced. It looked like it was coming from the lower feed boss where the big piece of short hose is clamped on. I was in a hurry and going on vacation in 2 days for a few weeks. I didn't want to deal with it then so re-drained the tank to re-address it later. Upon re-gassing it up upon return the gas started flowing out at a rate of about a third as fast as I was pouring it in! Upon inspection it was determined that it was coming from a crack in the tank near the bottom of the saddle section reserve side where a fiberglass layup support is attached. It appears that the strapping has acted as a stress raiser along with expansion and contraction in the AZ heat. In any case it looks like it may have to be sawzall time for the top of the cockpit module for repair. Has anyone gone through a repair to a fuel tank an a fully built aircraft? What was the routine? I am not looking forward to this and am possibly considering just parting the aircraft out. I could have been out flying and pumped all the fuel out of the reserve return side in a matter of about 10 minutes if I didn't light it off. Feed back appreciated Steve Hagar A143 Mesa AZ 914 Airmaster Steve Hagar hagargs@earthlink.net __________ NOD32 2458 (20070813) Information __________ -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:30 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Anyone have carb ice with intercooled 914? Trevor Does this mean you had ICE ? Regards Bob H G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Trevpond@aol.com Sent: 14 August 2007 11:40 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone have carb ice with intercooled 914? Hi Jim, At 33"mp and 5300rpm, what is your fuel usage? Trev Pond G-LINN ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:53 AM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone have carb ice with intercooled 914? Only with a Gin and Tonic! Trev ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:22 AM PST US From: "jim Brown" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Down for the count - fuel tank leak Steve I feel like I just wote your letter. I just last week completed installing a new tank. My old tank was leaking in almost the same location. I had a crack about one and a half inches long at the edge of the fiberglass layup in the center of the saddle section. I had planed to take pictures on the replacement, but simply got involved in the teardown for replacement that I forgot. This happened at 702 hours on the Hobbs. You will need to remove the upholstery from the seat back and top.The entire top of the seatback needs to be cut loose. make the cut about 2 inches below top of the seatback.(you will need room to refiberglass the top back on.) My tank would not release itself from the layups that was done to hold in place in the build process. I had to cut the tank out in small pieces, what a pig of a job that was. Once the tank is installed, you need to cut about, a one inch wide recess in the seat module and about the same in the top that you removed to get at the tank. Leave the inside layer of fiberglass on both the top and the seat module, when you cut the recess. Then place the top back on the module, layup one layer of fiberglass in the recess, and let cure. Once you return lay up at least two more layers in the recess. Then I laid up 3 more layer of glass that I had cut 5 inches wide. This is a structural part of the cockpit. Once this cured I mixed up some epoxy filler to fill in some of the low places, then I reinstalled the upholstery. If you need to talk. Cell 352-250-0712 Jim and Augustene Brown N398JB ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:32:02 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Europa-List: Air Master Brushes Does anyone know if the carbon brushes used with the Airmaster Props are a stock item that can be locally attained, in the US, or must they be ordered through Airmaster? Thanks Jeff ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:54 AM PST US From: "Tom Friedland" <96victor@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Air Master Brushes Hi Jeff Airmaster is pretty quick. I suspect that they will airmail you some and you'll get them as fast as a domestic order. If you need them and it will take some time, I can send you my extra set and you can replace them. Tom On 8/14/07, Jeff B wrote: > > > Does anyone know if the carbon brushes used with the Airmaster Props are > a stock item that can be locally attained, in the US, or must they be > ordered through Airmaster? > > Thanks > Jeff > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:19 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Air Master Brushes Tom, Thanks for the reply and the offer. These are actually going to be a spare set. I just used my spares to replace the original set. I'll give Airmaster a call. Jeff Tom Friedland wrote: > Hi Jeff > > Airmaster is pretty quick. I suspect that they will airmail you some > and you'll get them as fast as a domestic order. > > If you need them and it will take some time, I can send you my extra > set and you can replace them. > > Tom > > On 8/14/07, *Jeff B* > wrote: > > > > > > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:12 PM PST US From: Bill and Sue Subject: Re: Europa-List: Down for the count - fuel tank leak It was turned into a can of pet food. Beware all animals that get in the way of a forced landing! Sue & Bill R.C.Harrison wrote: > > He vowed to never have her as a passenger again ! Joke ....Not > intended that it would be Sue! > > D0 not archive. > > > > Robt.C.Harrison > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Pete > Lawless > *Sent:* 14 August 2007 11:06 > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: Europa-List: Down for the count - fuel tank leak > > > > Bill > > > > Tell all what did you do to the cow that caused the fuel tank to leak? > > > > Pete > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill > and Sue > *Sent:* 14 August 2007 08:33 > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Down for the count - fuel tank leak > > > > Steve, > > I had to replace my tank after an incident with a cow! > > It was not as nearly as bad as I thought it would be. ( The repair, > not hitting the cow!) > > I removed the tank by cutting the top off the cockpit module about > 20mm below the top edge. The tank was stuck hard to the fibreglass > straps that hold it in place so I just cut it to pieces in place and > took it out bit by bit, this was a bit tedious but did not present any > problems. > I prepared the new tank ready so that when I put it in it would be a > one time job only with no in and out trials. > To put the tank in I had to spread the fuselage enough for it to slip > in on to the original support lay-ups and check that it was in the > correct position. When the tank looked to be positioned correctly and > not fouling any controls I then lifted it as high as possible and > managed to get a redux - flox mix on to the brackets sufficient to > hold the tank in place. The top of the cockpit module was replaced > using the normal glass splicing techniques. > I also increased the width of the spacers that prevent the tank from > expanding forward. I was concerned that the amount it moved when full > of fuel could cause cracking. > > This all happened 500 hrs ago and it has never shown any defect. > > Rgds > Mono XS > 914 Airmaster > > > Bill Sisley > > > Steve Hagar wrote: > > After having the aircraft down for awhile with the fuel tank drained > to avoid having stale gas present I noted a leak upon gassing it up. > I was going to bring it over to Phoenix Composites to have the prop > rebalanced. It looked like it was coming from the lower feed boss > where the big piece of short hose is clamped on. I was in a hurry and > going on vacation in 2 days for a few weeks. I didn't want to deal > with it then so re-drained the tank to re-address it later. > > > > Upon re-gassing it up upon return the gas started flowing out at a > rate of about a third as fast as I was pouring it in! Upon inspection > it was determined that it was coming from a crack in the tank near the > bottom of the saddle section reserve side where a fiberglass layup > support is attached. It appears that the strapping has acted as a > stress raiser along with expansion and contraction in the AZ heat. > > > > In any case it looks like it may have to be sawzall time for the top > of the cockpit module for repair. Has anyone gone through a repair to > a fuel tank an a fully built aircraft? What was the routine? I am > not looking forward to this and am possibly considering just parting > the aircraft out. I could have been out flying and pumped all the > fuel out of the reserve return side in a matter of about 10 minutes > if I didn't light it off. > > > > Feed back appreciated > > > > Steve Hagar > > A143 > > Mesa AZ > > 914 > > Airmaster > > > > > > Steve Hagar > > hagargs@earthlink.net > > > > * * > * * > * * > > > __________ NOD32 2458 (20070813) Information __________ > > * * > * * > *< /span>< /span>< /span> * > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by *MailScanner* , and is > believed to be clean. > > * * > * * > ** > * - The Europa-List Email Forum -* > ** > ** > ** > ** > * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List* > ** > * - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* > ** > * --> http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > * * > * > > > * > > > __________ NOD32 2460 (20070814) Information __________ > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:29 PM PST US From: "ALAN YERLY" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Down for the count - fuel tank leak Steve, When I was at Flight Crafters, Russell and I cut out Joe Deriders tank. Cut the cockpit module top off about 1 inch or so down.. Once the tank top is exposed, you will best be served by drilling small holes to get the saw in and then cutting the tank out in pieces. We used an air saw with a Dremmel and air cutters with every imaginable attachment. Clean up the reinforcing plies and then look hard at what caused the split. The glass reinforcements do really stick quite hard. Check also that the front spacers are not putting too much push against the tank causing it to buckle under the tank expansion. Your tank split is the first one I have heard of not as a result of a really hard landing or something that may have caused the fuselage to buckle. A Tri gear can bend the fuselage and cause a lateral tension failure on the bottom of the aircraft, but you have got to hit really hard. Mono can bend more longitudinally, but you have got to hit really hard. Replacing the tank was no major problem for us and if I remember, Joe had an enlarged the fuel access holes, or we cut it to make one long "Double D" which made the refit of plumbing and lower attach bracket a breeze. Two days of sweat. Like eating an elephant....One bite at a time. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations. ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Hagar To: europa-list Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:47 AM Subject: Europa-List: Down for the count - fuel tank leak After having the aircraft down for awhile with the fuel tank drained to avoid having stale gas present I noted a leak upon gassing it up. I was going to bring it over to Phoenix Composites to have the prop rebalanced. It looked like it was coming from the lower feed boss where the big piece of short hose is clamped on. I was in a hurry and going on vacation in 2 days for a few weeks. I didn't want to deal with it then so re-drained the tank to re-address it later. Upon re-gassing it up upon return the gas started flowing out at a rate of about a third as fast as I was pouring it in! Upon inspection it was determined that it was coming from a crack in the tank near the bottom of the saddle section reserve side where a fiberglass layup support is attached. It appears that the strapping has acted as a stress raiser along with expansion and contraction in the AZ heat. In any case it looks like it may have to be sawzall time for the top of the cockpit module for repair. Has anyone gone through a repair to a fuel tank an a fully built aircraft? What was the routine? I am not looking forward to this and am possibly considering just parting the aircraft out. I could have been out flying and pumped all the fuel out of the reserve return side in a matter of about 10 minutes if I didn't light it off. Feed back appreciated Steve Hagar A143 Mesa AZ 914 Airmaster Steve Hagar hagargs@earthlink.net http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:10 PM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Down for the count - fuel tank leak Steve I had exactly the same problem at the beginning of the year and documented it on this forum under the title =93 Who says life is fair=94. My leak was in the same spot as yours. We initially tried a repair, but that didn=92t work, so don=92t bother trying it=92s a waste of your time. The only solution is to replace the tank as others have said already. Its strange that when I had my leak no one seemed to have heard of this problem, now we have had a couple more? Are they all occurring in hot climates or is there another problem? If you want any help with the actual removal and installation speak to Bob Berube who did mine for me and did a great job. Good Luck Alan _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hagar Sent: 15 August 2007 06:48 Subject: Europa-List: Down for the count - fuel tank leak After having the aircraft down for awhile with the fuel tank drained to avoid having stale gas present I noted a leak upon gassing it up. I was going to bring it over to Phoenix Composites to have the prop rebalanced. It looked like it was coming from the lower feed boss where the big piece of short hose is clamped on. I was in a hurry and going on vacation in 2 days for a few weeks. I didn't want to deal with it then so re-drained the tank to re-address it later. Upon re-gassing it up upon return the gas started flowing out at a rate of about a third as fast as I was pouring it in! Upon inspection it was determined that it was coming from a crack in the tank near the bottom of the saddle section reserve side where a fiberglass layup support is attached. It appears that the strapping has acted as a stress raiser along with expansion and contraction in the AZ heat. In any case it looks like it may have to be sawzall time for the top of the cockpit module for repair. Has anyone gone through a repair to a fuel tank an a fully built aircraft? What was the routine? I am not looking forward to this and am possibly considering just parting the aircraft out. I could have been out flying and pumped all the fuel out of the reserve return side in a matter of about 10 minutes if I didn't light it off. Feed back appreciated Steve Hagar A143 Mesa AZ 914 Airmaster Steve Hagar HYPERLINK "mailto:hagargs@earthlink.net"hagargs@earthlink.net "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/ Nav igator?Europa-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 13/08/2007 10:15 13/08/2007 10:15 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:07 PM PST US From: A B Milne Subject: Re: Europa-List: Last of the Summer Wine Dear Bryan, Please count me in and keep me posted on arrangements for the last of the Summer Wine. Pease arrange for there to be no weather! Yours sincerely, Alasdair. Quoting bryan allsop : > > The annual Last of the Summer Wine trip has always been organized by > William Mills in the past. It has been an informal tour around > various parts of France, with it's destinations determined by the > weather, and the feelings of the participants. Nothing demanding, > just the joy of a few days enjoying the environment, and a bit of > flying together. We are confident that William would have wished the > event to continue. > > All being well we are looking at the 13th - 16th September for this > trip. Hopefully the mod. situation will have been resolved by then. > > Would anyone wishing to participate kindly let me know so that I can > start making the arrangements. > > Regards to all. > > Bryan Allsop > _________________________________________________________________ > Messenger Caf -- open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities > served daily. 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