Europa-List Digest Archive

Fri 09/07/07


Total Messages Posted: 11



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:03 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Tank leak was it empty (Alan Burrows)
     2. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Tank leak was it empty ()
     3. 12:17 PM - Tailplane torque tube installation (Fred Klein)
     4. 12:53 PM - Re: Tailplane torque tube installation (Richard Collings)
     5. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Tank leak was it empty (R.C.Harrison)
     6. 03:57 PM - Re: Tail plane torque tube installation (Paul McAllister)
     7. 04:08 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Tank leak was it empty (Alan Burrows)
     8. 05:32 PM - Re: Tail plane torque tube installation (Fred Klein)
     9. 07:28 PM - Re: Tail plane torque tube installation (Paul McAllister)
    10. 07:28 PM - Re: Tail plane torque tube installation (Fred Klein)
    11. 08:08 PM - Re: Re: FS 02 (craig bastin)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:03:34 AM PST US
    From: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
    Subject: RE: Fuel Tank leak was it empty
    Hi Steve Its a continuation of a thread that you have joined having experienced exactly the same problem that several of us have had. We are trying to establish if the cause is leaving the tank empty for extended periods, especially in hot conditions. Its starting to look like it is! Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hagar Sent: 08 September 2007 05:36 Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Fuel Tank leak was it empty I don't know if this is a continuation of my issue of my fuel tank crack that I wrote about on the 16 th of August but the crack showed up after refilling a tank that had been previously always kept full. My estimate is that it was empty for about 5 or 6 weeks in a pretty hot AZ garage. Probably over 100 F every day. Steve > [Original Message] > From: Alan Burrows <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> > To: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> > Date: 9/5/2007 10:18:54 AM > Subject: Europa-List: RE: Fuel Tank leak was it empty > <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> > > Hi Ron > > Yes my tank was emptied for the journey from UK to the U.S. in fact it was > empty for a period of about 2 months! > I wonder if its worth asking the community the same question about other > tank leaks, because its certainly information that should be shared if it > was the cause of my leak. > Has anyone else got a similar story? > Kind Regards > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us [mailto:rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us] > Sent: 20 August 2007 19:42 > To: Alan Burrows > Subject: Fuel Tank leak was it empty > > Hello Alan > > Was your tank ever empty of fuel after fuel had once been in it? (perhaps > you flushed tank with fuel during build and then after a while emptied?) > > Thinking by some is that will cause tank to shrink and can cuase cracking? > > Thx. > Sincerely > Ron Parigoris > > > 09:05 > > > 22:36 > > > 14:55 14:55


    Message 2


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    Time: 10:42:52 AM PST US
    Subject: RE: Fuel Tank leak was it empty
    From: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
    Hi Alan "We are trying to establish if the cause is leaving the tank empty for extended periods, especially in hot conditions. Its starting to look like it is!" (Cause of cracking) Anyone out there have the Auxiliary fuel tank crack? I think it is probably same material as the main tank, and perhaps more folk have had them full, then left empty? May be a combo of becoming brittle from drying out and trying to change dimension while being somewhat stuck in place? Ron Parigoris


    Message 3


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    Time: 12:17:52 PM PST US
    Subject: Tailplane torque tube installation
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    I am at the happy stage of preparing to tap home the four drive pins, attach the washers and cotter pins, and call it good; my goal is to ensure (or raise the level of probability) that no slop EVER develops between TP9, the two TP12's, and TP4. The question facing me is whether or not I should loctite these components together. I've read the posts of those who have ventured into the tailcone to deal w/ such slop (or "play") with profound admiration; if I'm ever in the company of a Europaphile who's done this successfully, everyone present will enjoy a round of drinks on me. Since I am installing the 3/8" pins, my sense is that preventing wear from occurring is the key...hence the notion that loctiting now is better (and easier) than doing so later. My sense also is that if for some reason in the future I find the need to remove the torque tube, warming up the loctite so it will release will be the least of my problems. Having taken the torque tube to a machine shop to have the 1/4" holes enlarged for the 3/8" pins, I now have a good interference fit with no play whatsoever. It appears to me that the best way to apply loctite in this situation would be to rotate TP9 & TP12 on TP4 away from the holes, dispense the loctite in the holes of TP9 & TP12 onto the surface of TP4, and then realign the holes, drive the pins, and "Bob's your uncle". Mentally, I've run this thru my "min/max regret analysis" and concluded that this is the thing to do. If anyone thinks this is unwise, please let me know before I do something stupid! And, if you'd known about the wear issues of these components when you were at this stage, would you have used loctite? Thanks for all responses, Fred A194 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.


    Message 4


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    Time: 12:53:20 PM PST US
    From: "Richard Collings" <r.collings@onetel.net>
    Subject: Re: Tailplane torque tube installation
    Fred Have a word with Roger at E04 [He is in the office Mondays, Wednesdays & Fridays] before you glue it up for good, the one thing I have learnt building my Europa is that as soon as you have put something together you find a compelling reason to take it apart again! I am putting together a mod at the moment which if accepted replaces the drive pins with fitted bolts as I don't like the idea of glue .Regards Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Klein" <fklein@orcasonline.com> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:13 PM Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube installation > > I am at the happy stage of preparing to tap home the four drive pins, > attach the washers and cotter pins, and call it good; my goal is to ensure > (or raise the level of probability) that no slop EVER develops between > TP9, the two TP12's, and TP4. The question facing me is whether or not I > should loctite these components together. > > I've read the posts of those who have ventured into the tailcone to deal > w/ such slop (or "play") with profound admiration; if I'm ever in the > company of a Europaphile who's done this successfully, everyone present > will enjoy a round of drinks on me. > > Since I am installing the 3/8" pins, my sense is that preventing wear from > occurring is the key...hence the notion that loctiting now is better (and > easier) than doing so later. My sense also is that if for some reason in > the future I find the need to remove the torque tube, warming up the > loctite so it will release will be the least of my problems. Having taken > the torque tube to a machine shop to have the 1/4" holes enlarged for the > 3/8" pins, I now have a good interference fit with no play whatsoever. > > It appears to me that the best way to apply loctite in this situation > would be to rotate TP9 & TP12 on TP4 away from the holes, dispense the > loctite in the holes of TP9 & TP12 onto the surface of TP4, and then > realign the holes, drive the pins, and "Bob's your uncle". > > Mentally, I've run this thru my "min/max regret analysis" and concluded > that this is the thing to do. If anyone thinks this is unwise, please let > me know before I do something stupid! And, if you'd known about the wear > issues of these components when you were at this stage, would you have > used loctite? > > Thanks for all responses, > > Fred > A194 > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > -- > 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007 15:18 >


    Message 5


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    Time: 03:25:10 PM PST US
    From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: RE: Fuel Tank leak was it empty
    Hi! Alan G-PTAG tank was empty and therefore dry since Mat 28th 2006 with the a/c in my centrally heated garage waiting for the engine. You guys have scared the hell out of me since about a month ago I filled up and just recently the filler hose became porous causing a massive leak which for a couple of days made me think it was the tank ! However all is now good . Regards >From a relieved Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Burrows Sent: 07 September 2007 09:01 Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Fuel Tank leak was it empty <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> Hi Steve It's a continuation of a thread that you have joined having experienced exactly the same problem that several of us have had. We are trying to establish if the cause is leaving the tank empty for extended periods, especially in hot conditions. Its starting to look like it is! Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hagar Sent: 08 September 2007 05:36 Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Fuel Tank leak was it empty I don't know if this is a continuation of my issue of my fuel tank crack that I wrote about on the 16 th of August but the crack showed up after refilling a tank that had been previously always kept full. My estimate is that it was empty for about 5 or 6 weeks in a pretty hot AZ garage. Probably over 100 F every day. Steve > [Original Message] > From: Alan Burrows <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> > To: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> > Date: 9/5/2007 10:18:54 AM > Subject: Europa-List: RE: Fuel Tank leak was it empty > <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> > > Hi Ron > > Yes my tank was emptied for the journey from UK to the U.S. in fact it was > empty for a period of about 2 months! > I wonder if its worth asking the community the same question about other > tank leaks, because its certainly information that should be shared if it > was the cause of my leak. > Has anyone else got a similar story? > Kind Regards > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us [mailto:rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us] > Sent: 20 August 2007 19:42 > To: Alan Burrows > Subject: Fuel Tank leak was it empty > > Hello Alan > > Was your tank ever empty of fuel after fuel had once been in it? (perhaps > you flushed tank with fuel during build and then after a while emptied?) > > Thinking by some is that will cause tank to shrink and can cuase cracking? > > Thx. > Sincerely > Ron Parigoris > > > 09:05 > > > 22:36 > > > 14:55 14:55


    Message 6


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    Time: 03:57:02 PM PST US
    From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
    Subject: Tail plane torque tube installation
    Fred, I discussed this with Andy two weeks ago and he shared the opinion than other than Bob Harrison's clamping blocks that nothing else will work. The pins will ultimately wear. I have just applied Loctite 603 to my TP12's and TP9 (assembled, in position) by forcing it in via a very short bristled artists bush. If you have you fuselage open then my suggestion is to put a band of 603 about 3~5 mm wide on TP12 and TP9. You don't need much of this stuff, and if you put on a modest amount you will be able to get it to let go by applying heat. Just my 2 cents worth. Paul


    Message 7


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    Time: 04:08:40 PM PST US
    From: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
    Subject: RE: Fuel Tank leak was it empty
    Hi Bob You may be ok if the aircraft has been in a centrally heated environment, because that doesnt get too hot. I would however keep a very close eye on it for the next couple of months. I would also suggest filling up after each flight, as thats the best way of checking for problems (max volume in the tank). Hope yours is ok. Cheers Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison Sent: 07 September 2007 23:23 Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Fuel Tank leak was it empty Hi! Alan G-PTAG tank was empty and therefore dry since Mat 28th 2006 with the a/c in my centrally heated garage waiting for the engine. You guys have scared the hell out of me since about a month ago I filled up and just recently the filler hose became porous causing a massive leak which for a couple of days made me think it was the tank ! However all is now good . Regards >From a relieved Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Burrows Sent: 07 September 2007 09:01 Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Fuel Tank leak was it empty <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> Hi Steve It's a continuation of a thread that you have joined having experienced exactly the same problem that several of us have had. We are trying to establish if the cause is leaving the tank empty for extended periods, especially in hot conditions. Its starting to look like it is! Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hagar Sent: 08 September 2007 05:36 Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Fuel Tank leak was it empty I don't know if this is a continuation of my issue of my fuel tank crack that I wrote about on the 16 th of August but the crack showed up after refilling a tank that had been previously always kept full. My estimate is that it was empty for about 5 or 6 weeks in a pretty hot AZ garage. Probably over 100 F every day. Steve > [Original Message] > From: Alan Burrows <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> > To: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> > Date: 9/5/2007 10:18:54 AM > Subject: Europa-List: RE: Fuel Tank leak was it empty > <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> > > Hi Ron > > Yes my tank was emptied for the journey from UK to the U.S. in fact it was > empty for a period of about 2 months! > I wonder if its worth asking the community the same question about other > tank leaks, because its certainly information that should be shared if it > was the cause of my leak. > Has anyone else got a similar story? > Kind Regards > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us [mailto:rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us] > Sent: 20 August 2007 19:42 > To: Alan Burrows > Subject: Fuel Tank leak was it empty > > Hello Alan > > Was your tank ever empty of fuel after fuel had once been in it? (perhaps > you flushed tank with fuel during build and then after a while emptied?) > > Thinking by some is that will cause tank to shrink and can cuase cracking? > > Thx. > Sincerely > Ron Parigoris > > > 09:05 > > > 22:36 > > > 14:55 14:55 15:18 15:18


    Message 8


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    Time: 05:32:24 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Tail plane torque tube installation
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Paul McAllister mentions Loctite 603...I have only Loctite 243 and 271...both are red; #271 is labeled "high strength" and "strengthens slip and light press fits". Does anyone know the significance of the various numbers and whether or not #603 has special attributes which would enhance its effectiveness over the others? Fred A194 On Friday, September 7, 2007, at 03:56 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > I have just applied Loctite 603 to my TP12's and TP9 (assembled, in > position) by forcing it in via a very short bristled artists bush. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:28:48 PM PST US
    From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
    Subject: Tail plane torque tube installation
    Fred, The Europa factory has been doing testing with Loctite 603 under the guidance of Andy Draper. Its the one to use, its not expenisve, around the 10~12 dollar mark. Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 7:31 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tail plane torque tube installation Paul McAllister mentions Loctite 603...I have only Loctite 243 and 271...both are red; #271 is labeled "high strength" and "strengthens slip and light press fits". Does anyone know the significance of the various numbers and whether or not #603 has special attributes which would enhance its effectiveness over the others? Fred A194 On Friday, September 7, 2007, at 03:56 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > I have just applied Loctite 603 to my TP12's and TP9 (assembled, in > position) by forcing it in via a very short bristled artists bush. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:28:49 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Tail plane torque tube installation
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Sorry for my naive question about Loctite...I'm now deep in the world of loctite and seeking a local source for the correct type...Fred On Friday, September 7, 2007, at 05:30 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > > Paul McAllister mentions Loctite 603...I have only Loctite 243 and > 271...both are red; #271 is labeled "high strength" and "strengthens > slip and light press fits". > > Does anyone know the significance of the various numbers and whether > or not #603 has special attributes which would enhance its > effectiveness over the others? > > Fred > A194 > > On Friday, September 7, 2007, at 03:56 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > >> I have just applied Loctite 603 to my TP12's and TP9 (assembled, in >> position) by forcing it in via a very short bristled artists bush. > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.


    Message 11


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    Time: 08:08:58 PM PST US
    From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
    Subject: Re: FS 02
    Possibly my intent was mistaken here, as you say gasoline has little to do with methanol other than they are both fuels. The application I was referring to was a race bike. As some one else mentions today fuel manufacturers are blending a lot more than just heptane, octane etc to make "gasoline" the way they used to. They add various other compounds to "clean your engine while you drive" etc etc. All i was really saying (or meaning to say) was that I would test, test and test some more, to be as confident as possible that the fuel available in your reigion wont dissolve the redux. Personally I know some epoxy systems can be used to fabricate fuel tanks and sumps with no problems at all, provided it is done correctly. before i got my europa kit i seriously considered scratch building my own design, and that was one thing I was looking for in an epoxy system, both chemical and heat resistance, and it was supprisingly cheap $120 for 20 litres. One thing that may be of benefit is the addition of "wax" to the redux for use IN fuel. This is what the composite suppliers here all said i should do if I was making a fuel tank or the like from kevlar or carbon fibre. I believe this makes it less "pourous" at a molecular level and so even more resistant to chemical attack. sorry if I created a lot of confusion over this. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of rampil Sent: Wednesday, 5 September 2007 11:03 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: FS 02 Craig (craigb(at)onthenet.com.au): Is it really fair to say that you found redux broke down in your fuel, when the "fuel" you were using was entirely unrelated to the gasoline or gasoline/ ethanol mixtures that Europa drivers use. What type of engine uses methanol/acetone, a very low energy density fuel anyway? An RC model? -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132865#132865 10:36 PM 4:40 PM




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