Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:35 AM - Re: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite (David Joyce)
2. 02:40 AM - Re: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite (Nigel Graham)
3. 03:22 AM - Re: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite (Peter Jeffers)
4. 05:13 AM - Re: Tank leaks (Kingsley Hurst)
5. 05:58 AM - Re: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite (Paul McAllister)
6. 06:31 AM - Post cure (William Daniell)
7. 07:05 AM - Re: Post cure (josok)
8. 07:25 AM - StructuraL failure or? (josok)
9. 08:15 AM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (glenn crowder)
10. 08:40 AM - Re: Post cure (Rob Housman)
11. 09:01 AM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (josok)
12. 09:33 AM - Re: Post cure (JEFF ROBERTS)
13. 10:06 AM - Re: Post cure (David Joyce)
14. 10:10 AM - Re: Post cure (Al Stills)
15. 10:22 AM - Re: Post cure (William Daniell)
16. 10:32 AM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (glenn crowder)
17. 11:12 AM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (josok)
18. 01:53 PM - Re: Mod 74. (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
19. 02:11 PM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (Carl Pattinson)
20. 03:17 PM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (josok)
21. 03:17 PM - Tail Wheel Bearings (Erich Trombley)
22. 03:36 PM - Re: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite (R.C.Harrison)
23. 04:01 PM - Re: Tank leaks (Kingsley Hurst)
24. 05:00 PM - Re: Tail Wheel Bearings (Kingsley Hurst)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
Bob, The plane relies on an awful lot of 'glue' to stick the bits of glass
together!
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 10:39 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
>
> Steve,
> IMHO I can not imaging how anyone could force you to use such a mickey
> mouse fix as glue? And what's more I can not imagine the PFA giving its
> blessing ? At what loading does it separate? What repeatability of
> performance can be shown ? How can degreasing be guaranteed? Unless it
> is used for destructive testing! Better use Jubilee clips ...at least
> that is a known quantity factor! The PFA wouldn't clear that either !
> Regards
> Bob Harrison.
> PS Sorry but I can not contain my opinion any longer!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve v
> Sent: 10 September 2007 21:58
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
>
>
> Hi, Do you Know if we will be forced to Loctite the torquetube together?
>
> I for one do not want to willingly use loctite, i would prefer to use
> Bobs clamps as
> removal would be far easier.
>
> steve vestuti G-CEBV #573
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
Bob,
If I may make the case for the defence .........
Once upon a time in a life far, far away ......I worked for a company
developing and manufacturing anaerobic adhesives. (No ...it wasn't Loctite)
Part of my job entailed setting up an running the lab tests to quantify the
shear and peel strengths of the various formulations under differing
assembly (best case, worst case and typical) cleanliness conditions.
Even though I knew how the adhesive worked, it never ceased to amaze me how
strong this stuff was.
Some test pieces (typically a "ring and pin" for shear testing) would fail
before the adhesive.
One can use many adjectives to describe these adhesives, but "Mickey Mouse"
would be THE most inappropriate.
I CAN imagine the PFA sanctioning their use. Anaerobic adhesives (Loctite is
just one) are a near-perfect engineering solution to our very real
engineering problem.
They tick all the boxes.
They are low cost, simple to administer, lightweight, strong, chemically
resistant and (with the use of suitably masked heat) easy to dis-assemble.
Most importantly for us, there is no requirement for the entire surface area
of the two mating components be completely covered or even completely
de-greased. The surface area of the TP4 is so great, that an anaerobic will
work even if the adhesive does not wick over the entire surface.
Remember that this is being used in addition to (not in place of) the
standard drive pins. The adhesive's only function is to prevent relative
movement - the pins still take the load.
Regards
Nigel (the other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison
Sent: 10 September 2007 22:40
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Steve,
IMHO I can not imaging how anyone could force you to use such a mickey
mouse fix as glue? And what's more I can not imagine the PFA giving its
blessing ? At what loading does it separate? What repeatability of
performance can be shown ? How can degreasing be guaranteed? Unless it
is used for destructive testing! Better use Jubilee clips ...at least
that is a known quantity factor! The PFA wouldn't clear that either !
Regards
Bob Harrison.
PS Sorry but I can not contain my opinion any longer!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve v
Sent: 10 September 2007 21:58
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Hi, Do you Know if we will be forced to Loctite the torquetube together?
I for one do not want to willingly use loctite, i would prefer to use
Bobs clamps as
removal would be far easier.
steve vestuti G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 3
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| Subject: | Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
Nigel,
Many thanks you for your breath of fresh air on this subject. I have used
loctite in these areas for some time and it is now nice to hear of its
efficacy from someone who actually knows what he is talking about.
Pete Jeffers
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel Graham
Sent: 11 September 2007 10:38
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Bob,
If I may make the case for the defence .........
Once upon a time in a life far, far away ......I worked for a company
developing and manufacturing anaerobic adhesives. (No ...it wasn't Loctite)
Part of my job entailed setting up an running the lab tests to quantify the
shear and peel strengths of the various formulations under differing
assembly (best case, worst case and typical) cleanliness conditions.
Even though I knew how the adhesive worked, it never ceased to amaze me how
strong this stuff was.
Some test pieces (typically a "ring and pin" for shear testing) would fail
before the adhesive.
One can use many adjectives to describe these adhesives, but "Mickey Mouse"
would be THE most inappropriate.
I CAN imagine the PFA sanctioning their use. Anaerobic adhesives (Loctite is
just one) are a near-perfect engineering solution to our very real
engineering problem.
They tick all the boxes.
They are low cost, simple to administer, lightweight, strong, chemically
resistant and (with the use of suitably masked heat) easy to dis-assemble.
Most importantly for us, there is no requirement for the entire surface area
of the two mating components be completely covered or even completely
de-greased. The surface area of the TP4 is so great, that an anaerobic will
work even if the adhesive does not wick over the entire surface.
Remember that this is being used in addition to (not in place of) the
standard drive pins. The adhesive's only function is to prevent relative
movement - the pins still take the load.
Regards
Nigel (the other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison
Sent: 10 September 2007 22:40
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Steve,
IMHO I can not imaging how anyone could force you to use such a mickey
mouse fix as glue? And what's more I can not imagine the PFA giving its
blessing ? At what loading does it separate? What repeatability of
performance can be shown ? How can degreasing be guaranteed? Unless it
is used for destructive testing! Better use Jubilee clips ...at least
that is a known quantity factor! The PFA wouldn't clear that either !
Regards
Bob Harrison.
PS Sorry but I can not contain my opinion any longer!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve v
Sent: 10 September 2007 21:58
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Hi, Do you Know if we will be forced to Loctite the torquetube together?
I for one do not want to willingly use loctite, i would prefer to use
Bobs clamps as
removal would be far easier.
steve vestuti G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
17:43
17:43
Message 4
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MessageGidday Bob,
You said :-
> Your use of the words support "straps" concerns me...
Please don't be concerned mate, mine are done as per the manual and
without checking the manual, I guess they are more correctly called
brackets. It's that English language you blokes introduced to this
country that is the problem ! ! !
I'm interested to know if those that have cracked or leaked are also
bonded firmly to the . . . . . . (brackets !!) ???
Cheers
Kingsley
Message 5
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| Subject: | Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
Nigel,
Thanks for the sharing your real world experience on this topic. I have
used the Lotite 6xx series over a number of years and I never cease to be
amazed what this product can do.
Paul
Message 6
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As I understand it the blue foam bits need post cure.
I believe this is 40C for a period of 24 hours.
Can this be done at a lower heat for longer time to get the same results?
Will
17:43
Message 7
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Hi Daniel,
No, it is not the blue foam, it's the epoxy that needs post curing. So also cure
the wings, fuse ect. For the second part of the question, not entirely sure,
please correct me if i am wrong, but if you cure at say 40 degrees, and the plane
ever gets warmer, it will continue to cure with bad results for your beautiful
finish...
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 8
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| Subject: | StructuraL failure or? |
Hi All,
As far as i know there is still no conclusion from the AAIB about the cause of
this one and only structural failure. It keeps buzzing in my mind. It is a fact
that there should be no slop in tail planes, that the bushes should be secure,
and that wing pins should be properly attached. Period.
But was it the cause off the accident? Speed 90 knots, no abnormal movements, then
suddenly very steep up and down movements, paper flying from the cabin. All
according the AAIB report.
I received the following suggestion, which i think has not been communicated before:
The plane was rigged by three persons. What if one of the anti-trim tab
drive pins was not in but on the T-rod? Everything would look pretty much OK,
feel pretty much OK, until the pin would pass the T-rod, on which the anti tab
would become a pro-tab. This would cause a violent movement, on which the pilots
correction would cause another and so on, until destruction. It would explain
the described up and down movements eh? Start shooting please!
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 9
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| Subject: | StructuraL failure or? |
Also I've noticed that the T rod can be unthreaded by turning it over and
over enough
times to completely separate it from the drive mechanism if the nut is not
tight. What if this happened slowly over a period of years and finally cam
e loose on that particular flight?
The trim position would be affected, but over time it might not be notice
d.
Glenn > Subject: Europa-Li
st: StructuraL failure or?> From: josok-e@ukolo.fi> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007
17:23:02 +0300> To: europa-list@matronics.com> > --> Europa-List message po
sted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>> > Hi All,> As far as i know there is s
till no conclusion from the AAIB about the cause of this one and only struc
tural failure. It keeps buzzing in my mind. It is a fact that there should
be no slop in tail planes, that the bushes should be secure, and that wing
pins should be properly attached. Period.> But was it the cause off the acc
ident? Speed 90 knots, no abnormal movements, then suddenly very steep up a
nd down movements, paper flying from the cabin. All according the AAIB repo
rt. > I received the following suggestion, which i think has not been commu
nicated before: The plane was rigged by three persons. What if one of the a
nti-trim tab drive pins was not in but on the T-rod? Everything would look
pretty much OK, feel pretty much OK, until the pin would pass the T-rod, on
which the anti tab would become a pro-tab. This would cause a violent move
ment, on which the pilots correction would cause another and so on, until d
estruction. It would explain the described up and down movements eh? Start
shooting please!> > Regards,> > Jos Okhuijsen> > > > > > > Visit - www.Euro
====================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Capture your memories in an online journal!
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
Message 10
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Short answer: NO.
I have no specific information about the Aeropoxy material (there is nothing
about this on the Aeropoxy web site) but in general for epoxies (and other
thermosetting polymers)the cure temperature affects the glass transition
temperature, T sub g. While the polymerization reaction generally behaves
in the expected fashion, i. e., longer soak at lower temperature being
somewhat equivalent to a shorter soak at a higher temperature, the critical
factor here is to have the cure temperature high enough to cure the epoxy to
a high T sub g.
The glass transition temperature is actually not a specific temperature (the
melting point of ice for example) but rather a range of temperature through
which the material transitions from being hard and glassy to being soft and
rubbery. The higher the cure temperature the higher the glass transition
temperature, and that translates directly to a stronger airframe when
ambient temperature is high.
Jos Okhuijsen is correct on both points - cure all parts with builder
applied epoxy and cure at a temperature higher than you expect to encounter.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, California
Europa XS Tri-Gear
S/N A070
Airframe complete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 6:25 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Post cure
As I understand it the blue foam bits need post cure.
I believe this is 40C for a period of 24 hours.
Can this be done at a lower heat for longer time to get the same results?
Will
17:43
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
Hi Glenn
No, the T bar can not turn, because there should be a lock nut on the thread. But
it's perfectly possible to rig a trim tab wrong, at least on one side. It's
not obvious on quick visual inspection. Only moving the tabs by hand one at
a time does make sure that they are engaged properly.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 12
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Will,
I placed all my parts in my garage attic where the temps we're hovering
around 140 to 150F. Couldn't get the wings up there so I laid them on a
padded surface in my driveway in the direct sun after I applied the PPG
high build primer. It was dark gray and the temps we're higher than
they would have been after the white final coat so I figured they would
get all the cure they need. After the all day sun I blocked sanded them
down again before final prime and paint. This was my second summer on
them and they're still looking good. I did the same thing for the
fuselage. Hope this helps.
Jeff R.
A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 86 hours flying and climbing slowly.
PS. Anyone out there in USA know of a good hypnotist that could
convince my wife's subconscious mind she loves to fly? ;o)
On Sep 11, 2007, at 10:39 AM, Rob Housman wrote:
>
> Short answer: NO.
>
> I have no specific information about the Aeropoxy material (there is
> nothing
> about this on the Aeropoxy web site) but in general for epoxies (and
> other
> thermosetting polymers)the cure temperature affects the glass
> transition
> temperature, T sub g. While the polymerization reaction generally
> behaves
> in the expected fashion, i. e., longer soak at lower temperature being
> somewhat equivalent to a shorter soak at a higher temperature, the
> critical
> factor here is to have the cure temperature high enough to cure the
> epoxy to
> a high T sub g.
>
> The glass transition temperature is actually not a specific
> temperature (the
> melting point of ice for example) but rather a range of temperature
> through
> which the material transitions from being hard and glassy to being
> soft and
> rubbery. The higher the cure temperature the higher the glass
> transition
> temperature, and that translates directly to a stronger airframe when
> ambient temperature is high.
>
> Jos Okhuijsen is correct on both points - cure all parts with builder
> applied epoxy and cure at a temperature higher than you expect to
> encounter.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> Irvine, California
> Europa XS Tri-Gear
> S/N A070
> Airframe complete
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
> Daniell
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 6:25 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Post cure
>
> <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
>
> As I understand it the blue foam bits need post cure.
>
> I believe this is 40C for a period of 24 hours.
>
> Can this be done at a lower heat for longer time to get the same
> results?
>
> Will
>
> 17:43
>
>
Message 13
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William, The data sheet for Ampreg 20 (the resin supplied by Europa
throughout my build) with standard hardener gives the following for
differing post cure regimes:
Post Cure Flexural strength Tensile Strength. Glass transition
Temp
Regime (MPa)
5hrs @ 80 C. 159 80
78 C.
16hrs @ 50 C. 167 85
71 C.
4wks @ RT 126 71
51 C.
Clearly it's well worth while doing a 50 C. post cure, where the bits need
only simple support, as opposed to 80 C where without complex support there
is a risk of them ending up looking like a Salvador Dali painting! I did
mine by making an enclosure from polystyrene sheets and heated by a hair
dryer, with thermometer stuck thru the polystyrene. Other resin systems I
have worked with, have much less benefit from post cure regimes and if you
are not using Ampreg it would be worth looking at the specific data sheet.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 2:25 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Post cure
>
> As I understand it the blue foam bits need post cure.
>
> I believe this is 40C for a period of 24 hours.
>
> Can this be done at a lower heat for longer time to get the same results?
>
> Will
>
> 17:43
>
>
Message 14
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Jeff & Will,
While I was building mine I did basically the same but placed the wings in a
black plastic bag and let set in the sun all day.
the temps were in the 110 Deg F and have had no problems. However, I did the
same with the flying surfaces and did have a problem
on the ailerons. I had to pull them back off, straighten them out and then
re-cure them in an oven to 175 Deg F for a few hours. Have had no more
problems with them since then. It's amazing how hot these things get in the
sunlight on a hot day. I consulted with a "expert" on
the cure temps and he basically said to cure them at least 20 deg F over the
hottest temps you expect the surface to get to. While I was flying the
Diamond Katana, the sensor that is in the cockpit and has leads to the
outside surfaces was a no fly set off at 150 deg's f.
Al Stills
N625AZ
Message 15
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Thanks to all
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 10:40
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Post cure
Short answer: NO.
I have no specific information about the Aeropoxy material (there is nothing
about this on the Aeropoxy web site) but in general for epoxies (and other
thermosetting polymers)the cure temperature affects the glass transition
temperature, T sub g. While the polymerization reaction generally behaves
in the expected fashion, i. e., longer soak at lower temperature being
somewhat equivalent to a shorter soak at a higher temperature, the critical
factor here is to have the cure temperature high enough to cure the epoxy to
a high T sub g.
The glass transition temperature is actually not a specific temperature (the
melting point of ice for example) but rather a range of temperature through
which the material transitions from being hard and glassy to being soft and
rubbery. The higher the cure temperature the higher the glass transition
temperature, and that translates directly to a stronger airframe when
ambient temperature is high.
Jos Okhuijsen is correct on both points - cure all parts with builder
applied epoxy and cure at a temperature higher than you expect to encounter.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, California
Europa XS Tri-Gear
S/N A070
Airframe complete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 6:25 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Post cure
As I understand it the blue foam bits need post cure.
I believe this is 40C for a period of 24 hours.
Can this be done at a lower heat for longer time to get the same results?
Will
17:43
17:43
17:43
Message 16
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| Subject: | StructuraL failure or? |
Hi Josok - well mine turns and it's probably not the only one!
Glenn> Subject: Re: Europa-List
: StructuraL failure or?> From: josok-e@ukolo.fi> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18
:59:35 +0300> To: europa-list@matronics.com> > --> Europa-List message post
ed by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>> > Hi Glenn > No, the T bar can not turn,
because there should be a lock nut on the thread. But it's perfectly possi
ble to rig a trim tab wrong, at least on one side. It's not obvious on quic
k visual inspection. Only moving the tabs by hand one at a time does make s
ure that they are engaged properly. > > Regards,> > Jos Okhuijsen> > > > >
=> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Caf
=E9.
http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
Hi Glenn,
Good that you noticed, now please check the Manual, chapter 19 page 6, and find
the lock nut that you forgot. Better late and in time then another addition to
the statistics.
Regards,
Jos Okhguijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 18
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Yes, thanks.
Rgds.,
Duncan
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laptop JR" <jrgowing@bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 74.
>
> Duncan
> Has someone given you this info yet?
> JR (bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz
>
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 6:44 AM
> Subject: Europa-List: Mod 74.
>
>
>> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>>
>> Would some kind soul please measure for me the distance between the
>> inboard face of W26 articulating lift pin socket and the centreline of
>> the rotating barrel in W26. Then the distance from the barrel centreline
>> to the outboard extremity of the W26.
>>
>> The longer lift pins supplied with Mod 74 don't work with the earlier
>> non-articulating W26's, unless the wing root is counterbored, which would
>> weaken the very area that started all this modification in the first
>> place.
>>
>> I'm trying to work out whether the supplied longer lift pins (which have
>> the pip pin hole drilled c.1/10" further inboard) would work directly
>> with the later articualting W26, as a bolt-compatable swap without having
>> to reset the fuselage sides.
>>
>> Duncan McF.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
Please be assured you would know if you attempted a takeoff with the T bar
disconnected - I have done it !!!!
On commencing the takeoff run the stick was VERY back heavy such that when I
started to ease the stick forwards I assumed the controls were jammed and
aborted the takeoff. Gravity makes the trim tabs hang down forcing the
trailing edge of the tailplanes upwards. As this is the normal position for
takeoff (stick hard back till airspeed is reached), the problem dosent
become obvious till the pilot tries to move the stick forward in order to
raise the tailplane. Believe me it isnt something you could miss.
If only one of the pins was engaged this would disengage fairly rapidly.
Even if this didnt occurr there would still be a substantial force acting on
the disengaged tailplane which would be hard to miss. It is unlikely that
this could be trimmed out using the trim servo.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:23 PM
Subject: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or?
>
> Hi All,
> As far as i know there is still no conclusion from the AAIB about the
> cause of this one and only structural failure. It keeps buzzing in my
> mind. It is a fact that there should be no slop in tail planes, that the
> bushes should be secure, and that wing pins should be properly attached.
> Period.
> But was it the cause off the accident? Speed 90 knots, no abnormal
> movements, then suddenly very steep up and down movements, paper flying
> from the cabin. All according the AAIB report.
> I received the following suggestion, which i think has not been
> communicated before: The plane was rigged by three persons. What if one of
> the anti-trim tab drive pins was not in but on the T-rod? Everything would
> look pretty much OK, feel pretty much OK, until the pin would pass the
> T-rod, on which the anti tab would become a pro-tab. This would cause a
> violent movement, on which the pilots correction would cause another and
> so on, until destruction. It would explain the described up and down
> movements eh? Start shooting please!
>
> Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
Hi Carl
Thanks for your observations.
My question was, what happens if one pin was engaged, and the other one rests on
top of the T bar.
It is possible to (mis)rig that way. The other pin will hold, because like many,
i have a board with a slot just to keep the bar centered.
Would it go unnoticed until the loose pin would pass the bar? Would it tear the
plane apart because of the reverse reactions it would cause?
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 21
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| Subject: | Tail Wheel Bearings |
Paul,
I replaced the original tail wheel bearings with sealed ball bearings fr
om a local parts house. If I recall the O.D was a perfect match, howeve
r, a spacer was required for the I.D. The sealed bearings are much quie
ter than the original and do not require maintenance.
Regards,
Erich Trombley
N28ET Classic Mono 914
_____________________________________________________________
Be your own boss today with a Furniture Repair Franchise. Click here.
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigjx5y35QLZThw3HGZqXz62W
n4dKZFe4NuYoIuTID64H1yOW/
Message 22
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| Subject: | Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
Nigel
I don't profess to be in the know with respect to this technology and
probably my attitude belongs to another era but I will not succum to
this type of fix. As far as I'm concerned seeing is believing like the
sight gauge item there's no way better of knowing the tank is full than
seeing fuel in the filler neck. I respect what you say BUT unless there
is no clearance between the pins and holes you can not say the pins are
taking the loads. IOW for there to be differential slop present the pins
don't take the load until they hit the other side of the hole so in the
meantime your loctite is taking the load.
I repeat that my experiences with the nose leg spindle and loctite
"cooks it's goose" for me. I'm prepared to be a prat once but there is
no way you catch me twice thanks.
Regards
Bob Harrison.
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel
Graham
Sent: 11 September 2007 10:38
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
<nigel_graham@btclick.com>
Bob,
If I may make the case for the defence .........
Once upon a time in a life far, far away ......I worked for a company
developing and manufacturing anaerobic adhesives. (No ...it wasn't
Loctite)
Part of my job entailed setting up an running the lab tests to quantify
the
shear and peel strengths of the various formulations under differing
assembly (best case, worst case and typical) cleanliness conditions.
Even though I knew how the adhesive worked, it never ceased to amaze me
how
strong this stuff was.
Some test pieces (typically a "ring and pin" for shear testing) would
fail
before the adhesive.
One can use many adjectives to describe these adhesives, but "Mickey
Mouse"
would be THE most inappropriate.
I CAN imagine the PFA sanctioning their use. Anaerobic adhesives
(Loctite is
just one) are a near-perfect engineering solution to our very real
engineering problem.
They tick all the boxes.
They are low cost, simple to administer, lightweight, strong, chemically
resistant and (with the use of suitably masked heat) easy to
dis-assemble.
Most importantly for us, there is no requirement for the entire surface
area
of the two mating components be completely covered or even completely
de-greased. The surface area of the TP4 is so great, that an anaerobic
will
work even if the adhesive does not wick over the entire surface.
Remember that this is being used in addition to (not in place of) the
standard drive pins. The adhesive's only function is to prevent relative
movement - the pins still take the load.
Regards
Nigel (the other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison
Sent: 10 September 2007 22:40
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
<ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Steve,
IMHO I can not imaging how anyone could force you to use such a mickey
mouse fix as glue? And what's more I can not imagine the PFA giving its
blessing ? At what loading does it separate? What repeatability of
performance can be shown ? How can degreasing be guaranteed? Unless it
is used for destructive testing! Better use Jubilee clips ...at least
that is a known quantity factor! The PFA wouldn't clear that either !
Regards
Bob Harrison.
PS Sorry but I can not contain my opinion any longer!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve v
Sent: 10 September 2007 21:58
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Hi, Do you Know if we will be forced to Loctite the torquetube together?
I for one do not want to willingly use loctite, i would prefer to use
Bobs clamps as
removal would be far easier.
steve vestuti G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 23
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Hello Alan,
you said:-
> Not sure if my tank was the older type, I suspect it wasn't. But the
support straps were firmly bonded to the tank. Hope that helps
Having been empty for "far too long" after installation, my tank
(Classic pre Fluoride treated) rattles around in the cockpit module
almost like a pea in a postman's whistle. The layup of the brackets etc
did not adhere to the tank.
With the revelation of all the cracks in the tanks lately, I am just
curious as to whether there is any correlation between tanks (treated
and untreated) and (brackets bonded or unbonded) to the tanks.
Looks like this matter is almost dead again now so I might just wait
until the topic comes around for its next hearing on the list.
Cheers
Kingsley
Message 24
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| Subject: | Tail Wheel Bearings |
Hello Erich,
> I replaced the original tail wheel bearings with sealed ball bearings
from a local parts house. If I recall the O.D was a perfect match,
however, a spacer was required for the I.D. The sealed bearings are
much quieter than the original and do not require maintenance.
Like yours, the OD of the bearings I used were also a good fit. How did
you stop the wheel hub from migrating along them ?
I installed a groove with circlips on the inner side of the bearings to
retain them and having not put it all to the test yet, I'm hoping the
circlips will be secure enough for any jarring loads.
Like you, I put a spacer between the inner race.
Cheers
Kingsley
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