---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/12/07: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:09 AM - Re: Tank leaks (Alan Burrows) 2. 12:48 AM - Re: Tank leaks (Kingsley Hurst) 3. 04:35 AM - Mod 74 (nigel charles) 4. 02:06 PM - Re: Mod 74 (Laptop JR) 5. 02:41 PM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 6. 03:39 PM - Rotax 914 performance info request.... (R.C.Harrison) 7. 03:48 PM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (R.C.Harrison) 8. 04:16 PM - Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... (Gilles Thesee) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:48 AM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tank leaks Lets hope you don=92t have the problem and therefore don=92t become a =93contributor=94 to the topic :-) Cheers Alan _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kingsley Hurst Sent: 11 September 2007 23:56 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tank leaks Hello Alan, you said:- > Not sure if my tank was the older type, I suspect it wasn=92t. But the support straps were firmly bonded to the tank. Hope that helps Having been empty for "far too long" after installation, my tank (Classic pre Fluoride treated) rattles around in the cockpit module almost like a pea in a postman's whistle. The layup of the brackets etc did not adhere to the tank. With the revelation of all the cracks in the tanks lately, I am just curious as to whether there is any correlation between tanks (treated and untreated) and (brackets bonded or unbonded) to the tanks. Looks like this matter is almost dead again now so I might just wait until the topic comes around for its next hearing on the list. Cheers Kingsley 10/09/2007 17:43 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:48:23 AM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tank leaks > Lets hope you don't have the problem and therefore don't become a "contributor" to the topic :-) Indeed Alan so I'm hoping you will keep your fingers crossed for me. K do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:44 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: Europa-List: Mod 74 I have a tip for anyone who is doing Mod 74 from the wing underside. When it comes to making a foam plug to fill in the access hole the existing drilled out plug will be too small to fit tightly. I have found that using a 2.5 inch hole saw makes a plug which is a forced fit for the hole. It is then only necessary to trim and sand the excess before doing the layup. The whole job took less than 10 minutes. Although the access via the rear closeout is neater clearance for the flap may be compromised as the tolerances are quite close in this area. Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:32 PM PST US From: "Laptop JR" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 74 Nigel Thank you for the tip just in time! JR (Bob) Gowing in Oz ----- Original Message ----- From: nigel charles To: Forum Europa Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:34 PM Subject: Europa-List: Mod 74 I have a tip for anyone who is doing Mod 74 from the wing underside. When it comes to making a foam plug to fill in the access hole the existing drilled out plug will be too small to fit tightly. I have found that using a 2.5 inch hole saw makes a plug which is a forced fit for the hole. It is then only necessary to trim and sand the excess before doing the layup. The whole job took less than 10 minutes. Although the access via the rear closeout is neater clearance for the flap may be compromised as the tolerances are quite close in this area. Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:41:09 PM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or? On the other hand, I have had one of the little plastic bushes in the T-bar fall out during derigging, although this was spotted before the next flight. But what could have been the consequence had it not been spotted? Duncan Mcf. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 10:10 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or? > > > Please be assured you would know if you attempted a takeoff with the T bar > disconnected - I have done it !!!! > > On commencing the takeoff run the stick was VERY back heavy such that when > I started to ease the stick forwards I assumed the controls were jammed > and aborted the takeoff. Gravity makes the trim tabs hang down forcing the > trailing edge of the tailplanes upwards. As this is the normal position > for takeoff (stick hard back till airspeed is reached), the problem dosent > become obvious till the pilot tries to move the stick forward in order to > raise the tailplane. Believe me it isnt something you could miss. > > If only one of the pins was engaged this would disengage fairly rapidly. > Even if this didnt occurr there would still be a substantial force acting > on the disengaged tailplane which would be hard to miss. It is unlikely > that this could be trimmed out using the trim servo. > > Carl Pattinson > G-LABS > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "josok" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:23 PM > Subject: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or? > > >> >> Hi All, >> As far as i know there is still no conclusion from the AAIB about the >> cause of this one and only structural failure. It keeps buzzing in my >> mind. It is a fact that there should be no slop in tail planes, that the >> bushes should be secure, and that wing pins should be properly attached. >> Period. >> But was it the cause off the accident? Speed 90 knots, no abnormal >> movements, then suddenly very steep up and down movements, paper flying >> from the cabin. All according the AAIB report. >> I received the following suggestion, which i think has not been >> communicated before: The plane was rigged by three persons. What if one >> of the anti-trim tab drive pins was not in but on the T-rod? Everything >> would look pretty much OK, feel pretty much OK, until the pin would pass >> the T-rod, on which the anti tab would become a pro-tab. This would >> cause a violent movement, on which the pilots correction would cause >> another and so on, until destruction. It would explain the described up >> and down movements eh? Start shooting please! >> >> Regards, >> >> Jos Okhuijsen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:13 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 914 performance info request.... Hi! All Today I began to enjoy fuel economy..! I and my observer brother did a 2 hour 2 landing trip with a couple of timed climbs commencing initially at 1370 lbs and used only 24 litres(best capable measure since I wouldn't claim a scientific measure!). Ambient temp/pressure was 22deg C /1024. Generally the Manifold pressure was maintained to 27 inches excepting a timed 1000ft/2000ft. 100% power climb at 85kts 80seconds.... one hour later (fuel used lighter) 1,500ft/2500ft...115% power climb at 80kts..60seconds ...I failed to collect the manifold pressures during the climbs. However the intake manifold locally insulated surface temperature was 31.1deg C during the initial climb and 35 deg C during the high power climb. 100- 110kt cruise 5,150 RPM the intake manifold temp at 2000ft was 27.4 deg C. (but in this instance the manifold pressure was 29") Intake manifold temp. at 1000ft 70kts was 30.8 deg C . At 100kt cruise the coolant temperature was 92 deg C . Oil temperature was 98 deg C with oil pressure at 2 bar. I am using "Mobil One" 0w -40w and find myself wanting to increase the oil pressure somewhat although the light viscosity oil must be "reaching places where more viscous oils don't reach !" Would anyone care to pass comment on the suitability of a higher oil pressure and the generally accepted best climb speed, please? The engine does not now appear to be using/loosing oil from engine/turbo. The rising coolant temps. on the sustained 115% climb would not have enabled a 5 minute climb. Would any capable statistician care to crunch/"nit pick" these figures ? and make appropriate recommendations with regards to the oil pressure ? and does anyone have any comparable intake manifold locally insulated surface temps without an intercooler fitted? A radio test at 20nm 2,000ft was effected at "fives" abeam and approaching Humberside Radar an item near impossible with the Jabiru installation! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG PS the stabilator torque tube clamps worked fine and won't need any heat to remove them !!!!!! Robt.C.Harrison ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:36 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or? All I believe Roger Bull had an incident with the servo trim tabs which resulted in the modification which stiffened the drive pin plates. Perhaps he would kindly contribute to this thread? When I had my trim motor "failing to reverse" without going to full travel position problem, the forces on the control stick were enormous to such a degree I allowed the plane to climb momentarily until it reached full trim nose up position before reversing the mode of operation. I would have had great difficulty landing in this configuration in fact I doubt it possible. Regards Bob H. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan & Ami McFadyean Sent: 12 September 2007 10:38 Subject: Re: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or? On the other hand, I have had one of the little plastic bushes in the T-bar fall out during derigging, although this was spotted before the next flight. But what could have been the consequence had it not been spotted? Duncan Mcf. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 10:10 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or? > > > Please be assured you would know if you attempted a takeoff with the T bar > disconnected - I have done it !!!! > > On commencing the takeoff run the stick was VERY back heavy such that when > I started to ease the stick forwards I assumed the controls were jammed > and aborted the takeoff. Gravity makes the trim tabs hang down forcing the > trailing edge of the tailplanes upwards. As this is the normal position > for takeoff (stick hard back till airspeed is reached), the problem dosent > become obvious till the pilot tries to move the stick forward in order to > raise the tailplane. Believe me it isnt something you could miss. > > If only one of the pins was engaged this would disengage fairly rapidly. > Even if this didnt occurr there would still be a substantial force acting > on the disengaged tailplane which would be hard to miss. It is unlikely > that this could be trimmed out using the trim servo. > > Carl Pattinson > G-LABS > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "josok" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:23 PM > Subject: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or? > > >> >> Hi All, >> As far as i know there is still no conclusion from the AAIB about the >> cause of this one and only structural failure. It keeps buzzing in my >> mind. It is a fact that there should be no slop in tail planes, that the >> bushes should be secure, and that wing pins should be properly attached. >> Period. >> But was it the cause off the accident? Speed 90 knots, no abnormal >> movements, then suddenly very steep up and down movements, paper flying >> from the cabin. All according the AAIB report. >> I received the following suggestion, which i think has not been >> communicated before: The plane was rigged by three persons. What if one >> of the anti-trim tab drive pins was not in but on the T-rod? Everything >> would look pretty much OK, feel pretty much OK, until the pin would pass >> the T-rod, on which the anti tab would become a pro-tab. This would >> cause a violent movement, on which the pilots correction would cause >> another and so on, until destruction. It would explain the described up >> and down movements eh? Start shooting please! >> >> Regards, >> >> Jos Okhuijsen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:16:43 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 performance info request.... Bob, > > Generally the Manifold pressure was maintained to 27 inches excepting > a timed 1000ft/2000ft 100% power climb at 85kts > > 80seconds.. one hour later (fuel used lighter) 1,500ft/2500ft..115% > power climb at 80kts.60seconds .I failed to collect the manifold > pressures during the climbs. However the intake manifold locally > insulated surface temperature was 31.1deg C during the initial climb > and 35 deg C during the high power climb. 100- 110kt cruise 5,150 RPM > the intake manifold temp at 2000ft was 27.4 deg C. (but in this > instance the manifold pressure was 29) > Our usual settings are as follows : 39"/5800 => 115 % for take off 35"/5500 => 100 % initial climb 31"/5000 => 75 % for cruise & climb 29"/4800 => 65 % for economical cruise 28"/4300 => 55 % (very rarely used) I don't know the output for 5150 RPM. 27" seems rather low for break in : you need manifold pressure for the rings to bed in. > Intake manifold temp. at 1000ft 70kts was 30.8 deg C . At 100kt cruise > the coolant temperature was 92 deg C . Oil temperature was 98 deg C > with oil pressure at 2 bar. > > I am using Mobil One 0w -40w and find myself wanting to increase the > oil pressure somewhat although the light viscosity oil must be > reaching places where more viscous oils dont reach ! Would anyone > care to pass comment on the suitability of a higher oil pressure and > the generally accepted best climb speed, please? > > The engine does not now appear to be using/loosing oil from engine/turbo. > > The rising coolant temps. on the sustained 115% climb would not have > enabled a 5 minute climb. > Our cooling setup allows for close to 5 minutes 115 % climb, but we never bothered to wait until the 5 minute light flashes. I usually reduce power to 100 % as soon as I'm airborne. > > Would any capable statistician care to crunch/nit pick these figures > ? and make appropriate recommendations with regards to the oil > pressure ? and does anyone have any comparable intake manifold locally > insulated surface temps without an intercooler fitted? > Unfortunately, we did not make those measurements, and our engine is intercooled. We focused on airbox temperatures. Yes the 914 oil pressure seems lowish, but it is the way the engine works. Remember the oil pressure is usually measured at the oil pump, but we have no means to know what the pressure actually is at the journals, etc...Certainly much lower than the healthy number usually displayed by the gauge on other engines. Sooo, as long as the pressure stays within the manufacturer's numbers... Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.