Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:25 AM - Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... (Simon Smith)
2. 02:02 AM - Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... (David Joyce)
3. 06:34 AM - Re: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite (Nigel Graham)
4. 06:45 AM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (josok)
5. 06:58 AM - Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... (josok)
6. 07:38 AM - Re: OAT probe (h&jeuropa)
7. 08:47 AM - Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... (Gilles Thesee)
8. 08:52 AM - Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... (Mike Parkin)
9. 08:59 AM - Quandary (Fergus Kyle)
10. 09:44 AM - Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... (Mike Parkin)
11. 10:32 AM - Re: Quandary (Jeremy Davey)
12. 11:06 AM - Re: Quandary (Ferg Kyle)
13. 12:25 PM - Monowheel speed kit (Remi Guerner)
14. 02:58 PM - Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... (R.C.Harrison)
15. 03:19 PM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (Paul McAllister)
16. 11:41 PM - Re: Quandary (neveyre@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
>I am using "Mobil One" 0w -40w
Bob,
Page 10-9 of the 914 operators manual which covers Lubricants starts with:-
Oil: Motorcycle oil of a registered brand with gear additives. As far as I
can see from the Mobil.co.uk site, Mobil 1 is not a motorcycle oil.
Over the page on 10-10 fig 13 is a table giving multigrade weights according
to climatic conditions. 0W-40 is not listed.
In Rotax SI-914-019 there are two tables listing recommended oils. Read the
notes under the table and you will see that some are "recommended" while
others are "highly recommended" None of them are 10W-40. If you ask all
the UK 91x owners I suspect that you will find most are using Shell VSX4
10W40
Simon
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
Bob, 2 Bar for oil pressure is very low for my 914, for any other than
idling speed with very hot oil.It much more commonly runs around the 4 Bar
level. 2 bar is actually the warning limit for the Flydat system when it
starts flashing lights at you! Shell VSX4 came out in various articles as
the clear top choice as I remember it. I wouldn't be happy running generally
at as low a pressure as that. I would be inclined to check your oil
pressure sender if you can, then change your oil, (for VSX 4) then if still
low put a shimmy in the oil pressure relief valve under the gear box.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:37 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 914 performance info request....
> Hi! All
> Today I began to enjoy fuel economy..!
>
> I and my observer brother did a 2 hour 2 landing trip with a couple of
> timed climbs commencing initially at 1370 lbs and used only 24
> litres(best capable measure since I wouldn't claim a scientific
> measure!). Ambient temp/pressure was 22deg C /1024. Generally the
> Manifold pressure was maintained to 27 inches excepting a timed
> 1000ft/2000ft. 100% power climb at 85kts
> 80seconds.... one hour later (fuel used lighter) 1,500ft/2500ft...115%
> power climb at 80kts..60seconds ...I failed to collect the manifold
> pressures during the climbs. However the intake manifold locally
> insulated surface temperature was 31.1deg C during the initial climb
> and 35 deg C during the high power climb. 100- 110kt cruise 5,150 RPM
> the intake manifold temp at 2000ft was 27.4 deg C. (but in this instance
> the manifold pressure was 29")
> Intake manifold temp. at 1000ft 70kts was 30.8 deg C . At 100kt cruise
> the coolant temperature was 92 deg C . Oil temperature was 98 deg C with
> oil pressure at 2 bar.
> I am using "Mobil One" 0w -40w and find myself wanting to increase the
> oil pressure somewhat although the light viscosity oil must be "reaching
> places where more viscous oils don't reach !" Would anyone care to pass
> comment on the suitability of a higher oil pressure and the generally
> accepted best climb speed, please?
> The engine does not now appear to be using/loosing oil from
> engine/turbo.
> The rising coolant temps. on the sustained 115% climb would not have
> enabled a 5 minute climb.
>
> Would any capable statistician care to crunch/"nit pick" these figures ?
> and make appropriate recommendations with regards to the oil pressure ?
> and does anyone have any comparable intake manifold locally insulated
> surface temps without an intercooler fitted?
> A radio test at 20nm 2,000ft was effected at "fives" abeam and
> approaching Humberside Radar an item near impossible with the Jabiru
> installation!
>
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> PS the stabilator torque tube clamps worked fine and won't need any heat
> to remove them !!!!!!
>
> Robt.C.Harrison
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
....here you go Bob.
I thought you might appreciate this ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison
Sent: 11 September 2007 23:29
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Nigel
I don't profess to be in the know with respect to this technology and
probably my attitude belongs to another era but I will not succum to
this type of fix. As far as I'm concerned seeing is believing like the
sight gauge item there's no way better of knowing the tank is full than
seeing fuel in the filler neck. I respect what you say BUT unless there
is no clearance between the pins and holes you can not say the pins are
taking the loads. IOW for there to be differential slop present the pins
don't take the load until they hit the other side of the hole so in the
meantime your loctite is taking the load.
I repeat that my experiences with the nose leg spindle and loctite
"cooks it's goose" for me. I'm prepared to be a prat once but there is
no way you catch me twice thanks.
Regards
Bob Harrison.
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel
Graham
Sent: 11 September 2007 10:38
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
<nigel_graham@btclick.com>
Bob,
If I may make the case for the defence .........
Once upon a time in a life far, far away ......I worked for a company
developing and manufacturing anaerobic adhesives. (No ...it wasn't
Loctite)
Part of my job entailed setting up an running the lab tests to quantify
the
shear and peel strengths of the various formulations under differing
assembly (best case, worst case and typical) cleanliness conditions.
Even though I knew how the adhesive worked, it never ceased to amaze me
how
strong this stuff was.
Some test pieces (typically a "ring and pin" for shear testing) would
fail
before the adhesive.
One can use many adjectives to describe these adhesives, but "Mickey
Mouse"
would be THE most inappropriate.
I CAN imagine the PFA sanctioning their use. Anaerobic adhesives
(Loctite is
just one) are a near-perfect engineering solution to our very real
engineering problem.
They tick all the boxes.
They are low cost, simple to administer, lightweight, strong, chemically
resistant and (with the use of suitably masked heat) easy to
dis-assemble.
Most importantly for us, there is no requirement for the entire surface
area
of the two mating components be completely covered or even completely
de-greased. The surface area of the TP4 is so great, that an anaerobic
will
work even if the adhesive does not wick over the entire surface.
Remember that this is being used in addition to (not in place of) the
standard drive pins. The adhesive's only function is to prevent relative
movement - the pins still take the load.
Regards
Nigel (the other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison
Sent: 10 September 2007 22:40
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
<ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Steve,
IMHO I can not imaging how anyone could force you to use such a mickey
mouse fix as glue? And what's more I can not imagine the PFA giving its
blessing ? At what loading does it separate? What repeatability of
performance can be shown ? How can degreasing be guaranteed? Unless it
is used for destructive testing! Better use Jubilee clips ...at least
that is a known quantity factor! The PFA wouldn't clear that either !
Regards
Bob Harrison.
PS Sorry but I can not contain my opinion any longer!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve v
Sent: 10 September 2007 21:58
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Hi, Do you Know if we will be forced to Loctite the torquetube together?
I for one do not want to willingly use loctite, i would prefer to use
Bobs clamps as
removal would be far easier.
steve vestuti G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
Hi Bob,
Yes, i noticed the enormous effect of the trim-tabs.
Trim to the limits at cruise was one of the items in the test program for my plane.
And, exactly as in your experience, the forces, especially for the nose-up
situation, were so much, that i was afraid something would break.
The experience changed my opinion about the danger of the your out-of-control trim
motor story, which i clearly remember.
I have now a clear marking next to the pullable circuit breaker for the trim system,
on the panel and in my mind, should this ever happen.
Now i am writing this, i realize that the other action would be to slow down the
plane, it would probably lower the stick forces to a manageable level as well.
To be checked!
Still waiting for opinions on the one not-connected trim-tab leading to destruction
scenario though!
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
Hi Bob,
As others have stated, it's the wrong oil, it has to have additions for the gears,
and should not contain additives which will makes the safety clutch slip in
a while.
Mine has now done about 35 flying hours, and the temperatures have come down a
lot. I also had to lower the idle running speed, while during the first hours
the engine used to stop in the landing run-out. In other words, it needs a lot
of breaking in.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 6
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Paul,
Contact me off list about this. butcher43@att.net
Jim Butcher
N241BW
Do Not Archieve
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=134200#134200
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
Simon Smith a crit :
> In Rotax SI-914-019 there are two tables listing recommended oils.
> Read the notes under the table and you will see that some are
> recommended while others are highly recommended None of them are
> 10W-40. If you ask all the UK 91x owners I suspect that you will find
> most are using Shell VSX4 10W40
> * *
Bob, Simon and all,
Just had our French dealer on the phone.
He confirms that 2 bar is lowish but well within the operating limits,
and doesn't see any reasons for concern or mod.
Concerning oils, he says the Mobil 1 oils listed in SI-914-019 are OK :
Mobil 1 SAE 5W-30
Mobil 1 SAE 15W-50
Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40
Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50
All are for unleaded fuel only, the last two are "highly recommended".
FWIW.
Concerning best climb speed, it is a matter of minutes to perform
several timed climbs at different speeds, keeping the same power setting.
BTW, can you elaborate about your "intake manifold locally insulated
surface temps" measurements ? What is the purpose of these measurements
? Ice prevention ?
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
Hello Bob,
Very pleased to see you are slowly being bitten by the Rotax Bug. My
oil pressure is usually around 2.4 Bar in the cruise but the oil and
water temperatures settle back to more like 70 degs C - a bit too cold.
A climb speed of 80kts is about Vx for G-JULZ Vy being not more than a
couple of knots higher. But practically, if I am going somewhere I tend
to climb on track about 100kts it gives a decent rate of climb, it helps
with the cooling on a summers day and it enables better lookout ahead.
Now you have got rid of that other 'lump' I think that you will quickly
realise the added performance you now have.
I still think you need to open up the cowling gills though.
fly safe,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: R.C.Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:37 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 914 performance info request....
Hi! All
Today I began to enjoy fuel economy..!
Message 9
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Say,
I thought I'd share a story with you - you, who have the original
trailer.....
It's been so long in the build, and the trailer was at home, I
thought to see how well the stabs sat in it, with the fuselage aboard -
perhaps even a photo opportunity.
On they went, slick as a whistle.
However, on retrieving the pair, the fascinating little black plug
that ends the tube holding them was missing. Can you guess where it hides?
Yes, in the bottom of the stab hole.
Any suggestions as to the recovery of the little black plug would be
gratefully received here. In the meantime, take all rational measures to
prevent another loss.
Cheers, ferg
Wiring, wiring
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
David,
G-JULZ has always run at 2.4 Bar in the cruise since new. I remember
talking to Andy Draper about it and he said it was normal and that G-GBXS
also ran at 2.4 Bar.
regards,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 performance info request....
> <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
> Bob, 2 Bar for oil pressure is very low for my 914, for any other than
> idling speed with very hot oil.It much more commonly runs around the 4 Bar
> level. 2 bar is actually the warning limit for the Flydat system when it
> starts flashing lights at you! Shell VSX4 came out in various articles as
> the clear top choice as I remember it. I wouldn't be happy running
> generally
> at as low a pressure as that. I would be inclined to check your oil
> pressure sender if you can, then change your oil, (for VSX 4) then if
> still
> low put a shimmy in the oil pressure relief valve under the gear box.
> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:37 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 914 performance info request....
>
>
>> Hi! All
>> Today I began to enjoy fuel economy..!
>>
>> I and my observer brother did a 2 hour 2 landing trip with a couple of
>> timed climbs commencing initially at 1370 lbs and used only 24
>> litres(best capable measure since I wouldn't claim a scientific
>> measure!). Ambient temp/pressure was 22deg C /1024. Generally the
>> Manifold pressure was maintained to 27 inches excepting a timed
>> 1000ft/2000ft. 100% power climb at 85kts
>> 80seconds.... one hour later (fuel used lighter) 1,500ft/2500ft...115%
>> power climb at 80kts..60seconds ...I failed to collect the manifold
>> pressures during the climbs. However the intake manifold locally
>> insulated surface temperature was 31.1deg C during the initial climb
>> and 35 deg C during the high power climb. 100- 110kt cruise 5,150 RPM
>> the intake manifold temp at 2000ft was 27.4 deg C. (but in this instance
>> the manifold pressure was 29")
>> Intake manifold temp. at 1000ft 70kts was 30.8 deg C . At 100kt cruise
>> the coolant temperature was 92 deg C . Oil temperature was 98 deg C with
>> oil pressure at 2 bar.
>> I am using "Mobil One" 0w -40w and find myself wanting to increase the
>> oil pressure somewhat although the light viscosity oil must be "reaching
>> places where more viscous oils don't reach !" Would anyone care to pass
>> comment on the suitability of a higher oil pressure and the generally
>> accepted best climb speed, please?
>> The engine does not now appear to be using/loosing oil from
>> engine/turbo.
>> The rising coolant temps. on the sustained 115% climb would not have
>> enabled a 5 minute climb.
>>
>> Would any capable statistician care to crunch/"nit pick" these figures ?
>> and make appropriate recommendations with regards to the oil pressure ?
>> and does anyone have any comparable intake manifold locally insulated
>> surface temps without an intercooler fitted?
>> A radio test at 20nm 2,000ft was effected at "fives" abeam and
>> approaching Humberside Radar an item near impossible with the Jabiru
>> installation!
>>
>> Regards
>> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>>
>> PS the stabilator torque tube clamps worked fine and won't need any heat
>> to remove them !!!!!!
>>
>> Robt.C.Harrison
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> 13/09/2007 11:45
>
>
Message 11
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Ferg,
Long stick, blob of Redux, apply down hole to plug and allow to cure. When
cured, wheedle out plug in the knowledge it is well and truly stuck to the
stick!
HTH!
Kind regards,
Jeremy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
Sent: 13 September 2007 16:58
Subject: Europa-List: Quandary
Say,
I thought I'd share a story with you - you, who have the original
trailer.....
It's been so long in the build, and the trailer was at home, I
thought to see how well the stabs sat in it, with the fuselage aboard -
perhaps even a photo opportunity.
On they went, slick as a whistle.
However, on retrieving the pair, the fascinating little black plug
that ends the tube holding them was missing. Can you guess where it hides?
Yes, in the bottom of the stab hole.
Any suggestions as to the recovery of the little black plug would be
gratefully received here. In the meantime, take all rational measures to
prevent another loss.
Cheers, ferg
Wiring, wiring
Message 12
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Jeremy
I thought of that but if the Redux managed to touch the circumference on its
long and tortuous voyage I might not get the stab tube into the stab when it
cures.................. Perhaps if I surrounded the stick with a tube of foam...?
It may be I can stab the bung with a drywall screw and twist the little #$%^&*
into the black ------ plastic and haul it out that way.
Anyway, thanks for the rapid reply!
Ferg
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 13
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| Subject: | Monowheel speed kit |
The installation of my speed kit is now completed and I made some speed
measurements today. The results are as follows:
Without the speed kit, June 2006: altitude FL75, OAT 10 degrees C, that
is density altitude 8500 ft, full throttle, 5000 RPM, that is approx 60
percent power, TAS 133 kts.
Same day, same conditions except 4800 RPM, that is approx 55 percent
power, TAS 130 kts.
With the speed kit today: altitude FL75, OAT 11 degrees C, full
throttle, 5000 RPM, TAS 135 kts.
Same conditions except 4800 RPM, TAS 134 kts.
Conclusion: the speed gain is in the 2 to 4 knots range.
All flights were with full fuel, no passenger. Estimated weight: 520kg.
All 11 speed kit fairings installed. True airspeed was computed using
the GPS 3 segments method.
Best regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 526 hours
Message 14
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| Subject: | Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
Hi! Gilles
Thanks for your info. provided re.oils etc.
The temperature I'm giving as "Intake manifold surface temperatures" is
my attempt at discovering the effects of the intercooler. I have a
temperature sensor which I can move around the cowl and in the intake
manifold case it is strapped to the manifold and then suitably insulated
from outside effect
The readings then obtained were a rough indication of the temperature
drop compared to the ambient.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: 13 September 2007 16:46
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 performance info request....
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Simon Smith a crit :
> In Rotax SI-914-019 there are two tables listing recommended oils.
> Read the notes under the table and you will see that some are
> recommended while others are highly recommended None of them are
> 10W-40. If you ask all the UK 91x owners I suspect that you will find
> most are using Shell VSX4 10W40
> * *
Bob, Simon and all,
Just had our French dealer on the phone.
He confirms that 2 bar is lowish but well within the operating limits,
and doesn't see any reasons for concern or mod.
Concerning oils, he says the Mobil 1 oils listed in SI-914-019 are OK :
Mobil 1 SAE 5W-30
Mobil 1 SAE 15W-50
Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40
Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50
All are for unleaded fuel only, the last two are "highly recommended".
FWIW.
Concerning best climb speed, it is a matter of minutes to perform
several timed climbs at different speeds, keeping the same power
setting.
BTW, can you elaborate about your "intake manifold locally insulated
surface temps" measurements ? What is the purpose of these measurements
? Ice prevention ?
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 15
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| Subject: | Monowheel speed kit |
Hi Remi,
Only a couple of knots gain? Disappointing to say the least. Did you have
the tail wheel fairing fitted ? I haven't fitted mine and I am wondering if
it is worth the effort.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Remi Guerner
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 2:24 PM
To: Europa-List Digest Server
Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
The installation of my speed kit is now completed and I made some speed
measurements today. The results are as follows:
Without the speed kit, June 2006: altitude FL75, OAT 10 degrees C, that is
density altitude 8500 ft, full throttle, 5000 RPM, that is approx 60 percent
power, TAS 133 kts.
Same day, same conditions except 4800 RPM, that is approx 55 percent
power, TAS 130 kts.
With the speed kit today: altitude FL75, OAT 11 degrees C, full throttle,
5000 RPM, TAS 135 kts.
Same conditions except 4800 RPM, TAS 134 kts.
Conclusion: the speed gain is in the 2 to 4 knots range.
All flights were with full fuel, no passenger. Estimated weight: 520kg.
All 11 speed kit fairings installed. True airspeed was computed using the
GPS 3 segments method.
Best regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 526 hours
Message 16
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Hi Ferg,
Try a vacuum cleaner with some plastic tube on it to suck the plug out ?
Cheers,
Nev.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ferg Kyle <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Sent: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 7.05pm
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Quandary
Jeremy
I thought of that but if the Redux managed to touch the circumference on
its long and tortuous voyage I might not get the stab tube into the stab when it
cures.................. Perhaps if I surrounded the stick with a tube of
foam...?
It may be I can stab the bung with a drywall screw and twist the little
#$%^&* into the black ------ plastic and haul it out that way.
Anyway, thanks for the rapid reply!
Ferg
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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